Re: [WSG] Logo and H1's
Christian Montoya wrote: Maybe because no self-respecting user is going to take the time to contact you and let you know that your page doesn't quite work for them. Then again, it's not the main content of the page... maybe some users don't care if they can't see it at all. I know, I know - the invisible minorities are also by and wide silent. It takes the responsible idle theory and judgment of designers to take them into account and deal with them with due weight. Revision: My attitude was consciously (and uncharacteristically, I hope) flippant, I've revised it. Kim Kruse wrote: Maybe one of these could solve you h1 problem... http://tjkdesign.com/articles/tip.asp or http://tjkdesign.com/articles/a_perfect_Image_Replacement_technique.asp Kim That's amazing. How could Thierry leave us in the dark this long? I may very well play with this... Regardsm Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Multiple versions of IE on same PC
Hi All, I don't know if many people on the list are aware of this little gem (I found a link to it recently in an IE blog). It's a (free) package that has IE 3, 4.01, 5.01, 5.55 6 all bundled together. All you need to do is download it and run it like any normal .exe, and hey presto, you have the full set of IE releases all working side by side on the same PC in less than 5 minutes! (And yes, it works with IE7) I've installed them on my PC and on my Macbook Pro using Parallels and it works a treat! (Certainly beats paying for additional XP licenses or using Microsoft's IE6 Testing VPC image (which times out in April). Anyway, if you go to http://tredosoft.com/Multiple_IE you'll be able to download the package and try it for yourself. Cheers, Nick Lazar 8bits Media *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Legitimate uses of b and i
cite is a single element. A full bibliographic reference will typically contain a selection from: Article name Journal name Authors name(s) Editors name(s) Date of publication and probably a few other things. As you can see, each item needs to be kept distinct from each other, so a single container is not enough. A suitable micro-format would be great, but the point is that regardless of what non-sighted users require, a visual user requires a visual distinction. Clearly each item is of fairly equal importance, so neither em or strong is appropriate, semantically speaking. Mike -Original Message- From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick H. Lauke Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 8:35 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Legitimate uses of b and i [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A very similar example would be bibliographic citations What's wrong with cite then? P -- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Legitimate uses of b and i
Might be worth looking at the work on the Microformats site for more detailed citation markup http://microformats.org/wiki/cite http://microformats.org/wiki/citation-examples http://microformats.org/wiki/citation-examples#List_of_all_properties http://microformats.org/wiki/citation-examples-markup#Breakdown_of_Citation _Elements HTH Russ on 17/1/07 11:47 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] at wrote: cite is a single element. A full bibliographic reference will typically contain a selection from: Article name Journal name Authors name(s) Editors name(s) Date of publication and probably a few other things. As you can see, each item needs to be kept distinct from each other, so a single container is not enough. A suitable micro-format would be great, but the point is that regardless of what non-sighted users require, a visual user requires a visual distinction. Clearly each item is of fairly equal importance, so neither em or strong is appropriate, semantically speaking. Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Legitimate uses of b and i
Quoting [EMAIL PROTECTED]: cite is a single element. A full bibliographic reference will typically contain a selection from: Article name Journal name Authors name(s) Editors name(s) Date of publication and probably a few other things. As you can see, each item needs to be kept distinct from each other, so a single container is not enough. Not necessarily. HTML is a very semantically poor language, which of course doesn't have any granular elements that can distinguish content down to that level. All of that would probably fall under a single cite. If you *do* feel that, even though there are no adequate elements to distinguish these separate bits of the citation, they should be physically separated in the markup, you could still provide them as a neutral series of spans. A suitable micro-format would be great, but the point is that regardless of what non-sighted users require, a visual user requires a visual distinction. Which can then be provided by styling the separate spans. Unless under visual user you also mean visual user in a text-only or otherwise CSS incapable browser, which again would bring us back to the core problem of this argument. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Legitimate uses of b and i
-Original Message- From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick H. Lauke Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 2:38 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Legitimate uses of b and i A suitable micro-format would be great, but the point is that regardless of what non-sighted users require, a visual user requires a visual distinction. Which can then be provided by styling the separate spans. Unless under visual user you also mean visual user in a text-only or otherwise CSS incapable browser, which again would bring us back to the core problem of this argument. P -- I quite agree - I was merely trying to refute the argument that em and strong _entirely_ replaced i and b Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Legitimate uses of b and i
-Original Message- From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of russ - maxdesign Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 1:10 PM To: Web Standards Group Subject: Re: [WSG] Legitimate uses of b and i Might be worth looking at the work on the Microformats site for more detailed citation markup http://microformats.org/wiki/cite http://microformats.org/wiki/citation-examples http://microformats.org/wiki/citation-examples#List_of_all_pr operties http://microformats.org/wiki/citation-examples-markup#Breakdo wn_of_Citation _Elements HTH Russ No, that doesn't really help - their candidate list of attributes is ginormous! Doesn't look like they are very close to completion, so right now it is a choice between inventing a micro-format and hoping that it is compatible, or just doing it the easy (visual only) way. Since the _only_ advantage of a micro-format comes from standardisation, going it alone does not seem very useful. Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] [OT] What happend to WebDesign-L?
I apologize for an off topic question. I tried to get an answer from the webstandarsgroup web site first, but got no response. I'm certain I have seen some of the same people here and at the WebDesign-L mailing list so I wanted to find out if any of you have had problems getting mail from that list. I had a subscription to the WebDesign mailing list at http://webdesign-L.com/. Suddenly, a couple months ago, I stopped receiving any mail from the list. I have tried to re-subscribe, with no response. I have tried sending messages to the list-mom at both his list-mom address and his private address. I get a series of responses that my mail can't be delivered. I know that some of the people in the Web Standards Group also participate in discussions at WebDesign-List. I was wondering if any of the rest of you have had a similar problem with that list or was I suddenly banned for some reason I'm not aware of? Does anyone know if the WebDesign-List is still in operation? Thanks for your response, Carl. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] [OT] What happend to WebDesign-L?
Carl Reynolds wrote: I apologize for an off topic question. I tried to get an answer from the webstandarsgroup web site first, but got no response. I'm certain I have seen some of the same people here and at the WebDesign-L mailing list so I wanted to find out if any of you have had problems getting mail from that list. I had a subscription to the WebDesign mailing list at http://webdesign-L.com/. Suddenly, a couple months ago, I stopped receiving any mail from the list. I have tried to re-subscribe, with no response. I have tried sending messages to the list-mom at both his list-mom address and his private address. I get a series of responses that my mail can't be delivered. I know that some of the people in the Web Standards Group also participate in discussions at WebDesign-List. I was wondering if any of the rest of you have had a similar problem with that list or was I suddenly banned for some reason I'm not aware of? Does anyone know if the WebDesign-List is still in operation? Thanks for your response, Carl. Fraid not, sounds like an ISP/Hosting issue. They may have blocked the sender because of high traffic thinking its spam. I still receive email from both lists, so it's not the list-serv that's faulty. You might have to brave customer services for this one. Rob *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] [OT] What happend to WebDesign-L?
Carl Reynolds wrote: Does anyone know if the WebDesign-List is still in operation? Carl. Yes, WebDesign-L is still in operation. ~dL -- http://chelseacreekstudio.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Opera problem, too much padding on first load
hello all. On this page: http://www.texto.de/wp-plugins/ When you first load in Opera 9.0, the header is bumped down a bit and doesn't line up with the background. If you refresh, it fixes itself. I don't see this problem in any other browsers. I know I've seen this problem before but I can't remember how to fix it. Any ideas? -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Multiple versions of IE on same PC
Quoth Nick Lazar at 01/17/07 21:57... snip/ It's a (free) package that has IE 3, 4.01, 5.01, 5.55 6 all bundled together. All you need to do is download it and run it like any normal .exe, and hey presto, you have the full set of IE releases all working side by side on the same PC in less than 5 minutes! (And yes, it works with IE7) snip/ For those who develop under Linux, ies4linux[1] provides similar functionality, although it does not go back to the more ancient (3,4) versions. This uses Wine for the emulation layer, but looks after all the downloads and configuration. It should be noted that ies4linux does not provide a genuine IE7 - it runs (somehow) the IE7 rendering engine inside IE6. This means that one loses some functionality - tabs, RSS reader, but nothing that would impact on its usefulness for validating Web content on multiple user agents. Please note, for those running such systems on a non-Microsoft plaform, one MUST have a valid Windows (95+, I believe) to run IE legally. For me, this solves the problem of having to have a dual-boot machine or, even worse, a separate one just running Windows. Cheers M References 1 - http://www.tatanka.com.br/ies4linux/page/Main_Page -- Matthew Smith IT Consultancy Web Application Development Business: http://www.kbc.net.au/ Personal: http://www.smiffysplace.com/ LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/smiffy *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Opera problem, too much padding on first load
Quoth Christian Montoya at 01/18/07 07:07... On this page: http://www.texto.de/wp-plugins/ When you first load in Opera 9.0, the header is bumped down a bit and doesn't line up with the background. If you refresh, it fixes itself. I don't see this problem in any other browsers. I don't see this problem in Opera 9.1 (Linux), but do on Firefox 2.0.0.1 - and the problem does NOT go away with a refresh. Cheers M -- Matthew Smith IT Consultancy Web Application Development Business: http://www.kbc.net.au/ Personal: http://www.smiffysplace.com/ LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/smiffy *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Opera problem, too much padding on first load
Looks fine for me in both Opera 9 and Firefox 2 on Windows XP The top heading text needs some work for IE7 though... Cheers, Rachel -Original Message- From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matthew Smith Sent: Thursday, 18 January 2007 9:59 a.m. To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Opera problem, too much padding on first load Quoth Christian Montoya at 01/18/07 07:07... On this page: http://www.texto.de/wp-plugins/ When you first load in Opera 9.0, the header is bumped down a bit and doesn't line up with the background. If you refresh, it fixes itself. I don't see this problem in any other browsers. I don't see this problem in Opera 9.1 (Linux), but do on Firefox 2.0.0.1 - and the problem does NOT go away with a refresh. Cheers M -- Matthew Smith IT Consultancy Web Application Development Business: http://www.kbc.net.au/ Personal: http://www.smiffysplace.com/ LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/smiffy *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] colgroup
Can anyone tell me why this page doesn't validate as XHTML 1.0 Strict? http://ubiqutees.co.uk/custom.php colgroup is pinpointed but I'm blowed if I can figure out what's wrong. Kind Regards -- Chris Price Choctaw [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.choctaw.co.uk Tel. 01524 825 245 Mob. 0777 451 4488 Beauty is in the Eye of the Beholder while Excellence is in the Hand of the Professional ~~~ -+- Sent on behalf of Choctaw Media Ltd -+- ~~~ Choctaw Media Limited is a company registered in England and Wales with company number 04627649 Registered Office: Lonsdale Partners, Priory Close, St Mary's Gate, Lancaster LA1 1XB United Kingdom *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] colgroup
Hi Chris, According to the html4 spec (http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/tables.html#h-11.2.4.1) your col elements are supposed to be contained *inside* your colgroup elements. See if that works :) Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Legitimate uses of b and i
2) Language usage such as Latin as this is a long standing convention in print and must be retained (thus not styled via CSS). Example: i lang=laLorem ispum/i I actually come across this situation from time to time and I have ummed and ahhed over what the best thing to do is. My final answer is to place it in spans, such as span class=species lang=latinEchium plantagineum/span because: 1. The span offers flexibility: I have air-head moments where I decide these things should be italic, and bold, and in a different font, and then I decide the background should be a different colour. I can never predict what sort of air-head moments I have from year to year, and CSS allows me to cover for these moments quite easily. So I can change them to these stupid settings and then quickly change them back again :) 2. The web is essentially about semantic text. The audience reading your pages may not necessarily be human, and you need to open up your data to be available to your audience. Placing these sorts of semantic data in your code opens it up. The web is not about visual presentation, but about data. This is a really scary but powerful concept, that I believe will become even more important in the years to come. 3. All in code is evaluated by Google (a non-human audience member), and that includes the class name of the span. Your quality rating goes up, and SEOs could say more, but I believe also your listing for 'species Echium plantagineum' goes up because of the inclusion of the word 'species':) So my argument is if you find you need to present it visually different from surrounding text, ask yourself why. Why is this special, and then mark it up with spans using that speciality. Kat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] colgroup
Chris Price wrote: Can anyone tell me why this page doesn't validate as XHTML 1.0 Strict? http://ubiqutees.co.uk/custom.php colgroup is pinpointed but I'm blowed if I can figure out what's wrong. You can have either col or colgroup elements as children of table, but not both. So these are valid: table col col trtd...td... /table table colgroup col col /colgroup trtd...td... /table But this is not: table col colgroup col col /colgroup trtd...td...td... /table -- Lachlan Hunt http://lachy.id.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] colgroup
Lachlan Hunt wrote: You can have either col or colgroup elements as children of table, but not both. Excellent. Worked a treat. Thanks Kind Regards -- Chris Price Choctaw [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.choctaw.co.uk Tel. 01524 825 245 Mob. 0777 451 4488 Beauty is in the Eye of the Beholder while Excellence is in the Hand of the Professional ~~~ -+- Sent on behalf of Choctaw Media Ltd -+- ~~~ Choctaw Media Limited is a company registered in England and Wales with company number 04627649 Registered Office: Lonsdale Partners, Priory Close, St Mary's Gate, Lancaster LA1 1XB United Kingdom *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Legitimate uses of b and i
The only situation I can think of when there is an established visual standard for certain things that don't really have a semantic emphasis. I use a simple test: does the meaning conveyed need to remain if CSS is disabled? If yes, then stick with em and strong. The only place I can think of where I used i was reproducing a text-only logo (client wanted the general effect to remain no matter what). Half the word was italicised, for no real reason. It was all pretty dubious. Another way to think of it is that I don't think visual conventions were trying to say the important thing for you to know is that this bit of text was thicker than the other bit, for no reason. Generally they were saying we've used bold to show that this bit of text is significant in some way. In general, I think people mistake debates over i/b vs em/strong as being about those specific tags. They are really just suitable examples to explain the broader concept of semantics - but the downside is many people think standards advocates really really care about strong and em in particular. FWIW. IMHO. ..and other acronyms. cheers, Ben -- --- http://www.200ok.com.au/ --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
