RE: [WSG] Re: digest for w...@webstandardsgroup.org - Confirmation Request

[Kevin Lennon]

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On Behalf Of Kevin Lennon
Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 5:21 PM
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Subject: RE: [WSG] Re: digest for wsg@webstandardsgroup.org - Confirmation
Request



Kevin J. Lennon
Lake Area Webs
227 Firetower Road
Milford, Pa 18337
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.lakeareawebs.com
http://www.mysticwarriorsofrage.com


-Original Message-
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On Behalf Of Anthony David Pritchard
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Subject: [WSG] Re: digest for wsg@webstandardsgroup.org - Confirmation
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[WSG] position:fixed weirdness IE7 IE5 mac

[Bob Schwartz]

I am reworking a site and right off the bat I have ran into a problem  
with IE7 and IE5 mac with a position:fixed div.


The test pages can be seen at: http://www.fotografics.it/test/

On the first page, the position:fixed has been hidden from IE mac.

The orange div on the left is where a menu will go (without the  
orange background) and has position:fixed. In IE7 it shifts to the  
right invading the content div instead of resting just outside the  
light yellow content area. (Use any other browser to see it correctly).


On the next page, position:fixed is not hidden from IE mac.

The orange div disappears in IE mac.

Anyone got any ideas how to fix these?


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RE: [WSG] Web Writing Instructors (possibly OT)

[Paul Hempsall]

 
Thanks for your suggestions everyone.

I've got a meeting next week with our Training staff to discuss this
topic, after which I hope to pursue some of your leads.

Thanks again WSG.

Paul Hempsall
Web Developer


Lake Macquarie City Council
Phone: (02) 4921-0713
Fax: (02) 4921-0566
Web: http://www.lakemac.com.au

This information is intended for the addressee only. The use, copying or 
distribution of this message or any information it contains, by anyone other 
than the addressee is prohibited by the sender.

Any views expressed in this communication are those of the individual sender, 
except where the sender specifically states them to be the views of Council.


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RE: [WSG] Re: digest for w...@webstandardsgroup.org - Confirmation Request

[Kevin Lennon]

Kevin J. Lennon
Lake Area Webs
227 Firetower Road
Milford, Pa 18337
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.lakeareawebs.com
http://www.mysticwarriorsofrage.com


-Original Message-
From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Anthony David Pritchard
Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 12:05 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Re: digest for wsg@webstandardsgroup.org - Confirmation
Request

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Re: [WSG] OT? - spam in forms

[Dennis Lapcewich]

And if you are deaf, and blind?


Dennis



listdad@webstandardsgroup.org wrote on 02/14/2007 10:54:35 AM:

> I disagree, Captchas are accessible - providing you supply an audio
> alternative of course.
>




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RE: [WSG] OT? - spam in forms

[Moira Clunie]

 
> -Original Message-
> From: David Dorward
> Sent: Thursday, 15 February 2007 8:21 a.m.

> On Wed, Feb 14, 2007 at 06:54:35PM +, James Crooke wrote:
> > I disagree, Captchas are accessible - providing you supply an audio 
> > alternative of course.
> 
> Try that on a device which only has braille output.

Or with a person who is deafblind, or has any degree of both vision and
hearing impairment (most people over 50?).

The whole point of captchas is to try and distinguish between humans and
machines. If you build a captcha that assumes that the difference
between a human and a machine is the sense of sight (and/or hearing),
you will by definition lock out those humans who have sensory
impairments (and who rely on machines to interpret the information that
their impaired senses would have otherwise obtained, and convert it into
a different format or sensory input).



Moira Clunie
Accessible Formats Developer
Royal New Zealand Foundation of the Blind
Awhina House, 4 Maunsell Road, Newmarket, Auckland
Private Bag 99941, Newmarket, Auckland
DDI +64 9 355 6938
Fax +64 9 355 6960
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: [WSG] OT? - spam in forms

[David Dorward]

On Wed, Feb 14, 2007 at 06:54:35PM +, James Crooke wrote:
> I disagree, Captchas are accessible - providing you supply an audio
> alternative of course.

Try that on a device which only has braille output.

-- 
David Dorward  http://dorward.me.uk



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Re: [WSG] OT? - spam in forms

[James Crooke]

I disagree, Captchas are accessible - providing you supply an audio
alternative of course.

On 2/15/07, Michael MD <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


>I seem to be going through a spate of getting spam in a form on one of
> my sites (the one in the link, below, actually.)
>
> So I tried using PHP to randomly display an image and getting the form
> user to input what it says.
>
> I still get spam!   I'm presuming that this is because the spammer will
> work with javascript turned off, making the js checkform routine useless?
>

you appear to be doing the checking with javascript client side... that
won't stop spam robots (which ignore javascript) or any browser without
javascript,

You need to do checking for the correct answer on the server - in the php
script.

btw it also might be a good idea to include some kind of id (that can
related to the ip of the browser) as a hidden field in the form so you can
check that
the ip of the browser used to submit the form is the same as when the form
was loaded in the browser
(a lot of spambots use fake ips when posting - so checking that will in
itself keep a lot of them out, unfortunately not all of them though)







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--
James


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Re: [WSG] Accessibility - display: none v.s. left: -9999px

[Nick Fitzsimons]

On 14 Feb 2007, at 16:44:22, Nick Fitzsimons wrote:


To follow myself up with some hard facts:


OK, I've written up what is hopefully a factual and detailed account  
of exactly what's going on with the "display:none",  
"visibility:hidden" and "left:-px" techniques, explaining what  
the interaction between the browser and the screen reader is. It's at





HTH,

Nick.
--
Nick Fitzsimons
http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/





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Re: [WSG] Standards Compliant PHP Output

[Matthew Pennell]

If you're still having problems, you can comment on the original article, or
email the author directly on the original article page:

http://www.digital-web.com/articles/php_and_xml_sitting_in_a_tree/

Cheers,

Matthew Pennell
Managing Editor
Digital Web Magazine

On 2/14/07, CK <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Hi,

Revisiting this exercise with the hopes of completing a tutorial, the
desired output is generated, but running into problems placing the
proper standards table elements,  etc. Would you or
someone assist with adding the needed elements required for passing
validation with the table?



listName;
echo "List: " . $nameOfMyShoppingList . "";
/*create a loop that will take each foodGroup element,
display its name, and then list each of the items' names and
quantities.*/
foreach ($xml->foodGroup as $foodGroup){
echo "Food group name is " . $foodGroup->groupName . "";
foreach ($foodGroup->item as $foodItem){
echo '


Item:' . $foodItem->name . '


Quantity:' . $foodItem->howMuch . '

';
}
}
?>


On Feb 7, 2007, at 10:52 AM, Patrick H. Lauke wrote:

> Quoting CK <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
>> The following example of using simpleXML to output XML data is
>> strong.
>> However, would some standards savvy PHP maven guide in outputting the
>> list in the proper format:
>
> Just having a cursory glance, I'd say that what you want in that
> central loop is actually a table, not a list ... it's tabular data.
>
> foreach ($xml->foodGroup as $foodGroup){
>   echo "Food group name is " . $foodGroup->groupName . "";
>
>   echo "
>   
>   ItemQuantity
>   
>   ";
>
>   foreach ($foodGroup->item as $foodItem){
> echo "" . $foodItem->name . "";
> echo "" . $foodItem->howMuch . "";
>   }
>
>   echo "";
>
> }
>
> P
> --
> Patrick H. Lauke
> __
> re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
> [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
> www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
> http://redux.deviantart.com
> __
> Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
> http://webstandards.org/
> __
>
>
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Re: [WSG] Accessibility - display: none v.s. left: -9999px

[Gunlaug Sørtun]

Nick Fitzsimons wrote:
Do screen readers reveal "cover-ups" ? 
Example: 




I don't know.



[...]


So the best people to ask would be the developers from the IE Team 
and at the screen reader vendors :-)


Ok :-)

For the record: I have used the demonstrated "cover up" method for a few
years - just for fun, and a friend (across the web) who is relying on
screen readers says what's covered up comes through just fine.
The problem is: neither she nor I have any idea which screen reader it
is, other than that it is on top of IE/win.

regards
Georg
--
http://www.gunlaug.no


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Re: [WSG] Accessibility - display: none v.s. left: -9999px

[Nick Fitzsimons]

On 14 Feb 2007, at 14:49:43, Nick Fitzsimons wrote:


On 15 Feb 2007, at 02:06:11, Michael MD wrote:

Do any screen readers support some kind of metadata or semantic  
markup that could be used to embed such content in the page?




No, because screen readers never actually see the markup - they're  
designed to work with Windows applications that support MSAA  
(Microsoft Active Accessibility), not just browsers.


To follow myself up with some hard facts:

The page at  states that:


"With Internet Explorer 6 and later, the pvarState parameter of the  
IAccessible::get_accState property receives STATE_SYSTEM_OFFSCREEN  
when the object is invisible because of scrolling and receives  
STATE_SYSTEM_INVISIBLE when the object is invisible because its  
IHTMLStyle::visibility property is set to hidden, or its  
IHTMLStyle::display property is set to none."


This means that using offscreen positioning is seen by the browser as  
making an object invisible by scrolling - but as Windows (or at least  
IE) doesn't support the concept of scrolling to a negative position,  
it can't be seen. Screen readers apparently treat  
STATE_SYSTEM_OFFSCREEN as meaning that the content of the object  
should still be spoken - fairly obviously, as otherwise a wide or  
tall page would only have its visible region spoken.


However, said screen readers treat STATE_SYSTEM_INVISIBLE as meaning  
that the content of the object should not be spoken. Thus  
"display:none" and "visibility:hidden" prevent the content from being  
spoken.


More info is available at



and in particular the article at




is definitely enlightening.

Cheers,

Nick.
--
Nick Fitzsimons
http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/





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Re: [WSG] Accessibility - display: none v.s. left: -9999px

[Nick Fitzsimons]

On 14 Feb 2007, at 15:48:00, Gunlaug Sørtun wrote:


Nick Fitzsimons wrote:
So any attempt to include markup "just for screen readers" is  
doomed to failure - screen readers don't use markup.


Do screen readers reveal "cover-ups" ?
Example: 



I don't know. It's entirely dependent on two factors: first is how  
Internet Explorer creates its internal representation used to render  
the display (just to reiterate, this is not the same as the DOM), and  
how it exposes that representation via the MSAA API.


Then the other factor kicks in: how well the screen reader deals with  
the information it gets from those APIs.


So the best people to ask would be the developers from the IE Team  
and at the screen reader vendors :-)


Cheers,

Nick.
--
Nick Fitzsimons
http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/





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Re: [WSG] Standards Compliant PHP Output

[CK]

Hi,

Revisiting this exercise with the hopes of completing a tutorial, the  
desired output is generated, but running into problems placing the  
proper standards table elements,  etc. Would you or  
someone assist with adding the needed elements required for passing  
validation with the table?




listName;
echo "List: " . $nameOfMyShoppingList . "";
/*create a loop that will take each foodGroup element,
display its name, and then list each of the items’ names and  
quantities.*/

foreach ($xml->foodGroup as $foodGroup){
echo "Food group name is " . $foodGroup->groupName . "";
foreach ($foodGroup->item as $foodItem){
echo '


Item:' . $foodItem->name . '


Quantity:' . $foodItem->howMuch . '

';
}
}
?>


On Feb 7, 2007, at 10:52 AM, Patrick H. Lauke wrote:


Quoting CK <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

The following example of using simpleXML to output XML data is  
strong.

However, would some standards savvy PHP maven guide in outputting the
list in the proper format:


Just having a cursory glance, I'd say that what you want in that  
central loop is actually a table, not a list ... it's tabular data.


foreach ($xml->foodGroup as $foodGroup){
  echo "Food group name is " . $foodGroup->groupName . "";

  echo "
  
  ItemQuantity
  
  ";

  foreach ($foodGroup->item as $foodItem){
echo "" . $foodItem->name . "";
echo "" . $foodItem->howMuch . "";
  }

  echo "";

}

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
__
Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
__


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Re: [WSG] Accessibility - display: none v.s. left: -9999px

[Barney Carroll]

Michael MD wrote:
Do any screen readers support some kind of metadata or semantic markup 
that could be used to embed such content in the page?


Such stuff 'exists' only ethereally. In their wisdom, screen reader 
developers have by and wide chosen not to bother implementing any of the 
manifold techniques for distinguishing audio from video in web formats.


Standards-aware designers are, somewhat righteously, resentful of this 
lack of attention that we could well use, but the reasoning behind these 
make sense: hardly anyone uses these functions, and as far as they 
probably see it, the developers' priorities lie in making the vast 
majority of sites (designed with no great concern for the 
visually-impaired) work as best they can.


The tragedy is that normally designers can encourage the development 
community by carefully putting in place the hooks for future 
implementation of such features - but in the case of visibility:hidden, 
this would mean wrecking our design in the present.


...It's a mess!


Regards,
Barney


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Re: [WSG] Accessibility - display: none v.s. left: -9999px

[Gunlaug Sørtun]

Nick Fitzsimons wrote:
So any attempt to include markup "just for screen readers" is doomed 
to failure - screen readers don't use markup.


Do screen readers reveal "cover-ups" ?
Example: 

Georg
--
http://www.gunlaug.no


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Re: [WSG] CSS and non-standard properties

[Barney Carroll]

Nick Fitzsimons wrote:
Any use of vendor-specific stuff is purely for experimental purposes, 
and should never be used in the real world.


It's worth elaborating on this. The danger you face with such things is 
that the developers have no responsibility to anyone with regards to 
their own custom properties. They are the results of development towards 
standardised CSS, are prone to modification in their behaviour by the 
developers without warning, and are not intended for use.


They are, essentially, unreliable.

Having said all this, it still makes me happy to occasionally see them 
in casual use.



Regards,
Barney


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Re: [WSG] CSS and non-standard properties

[Nick Fitzsimons]

On 14 Feb 2007, at 01:13:52, Ben Buchanan wrote:


My concern with this whole approach is expecting people to go back and
remove the non-standard rules. In the real world we're going to be
stuck with the non-standard stuff for a long time to come; particuarly
when developers use them without understanding the full situation.



The non-standard stuff may add a few bytes to file sizes, but other  
than that it's harmless: a compliant CSS parser which doesn't  
recognise the non-standard rules will "ignore them according to the  
rules for handling parsing errors" .



Not all developers know the standards as well as the average reader on
this list. Plenty learn by copying other CSS, so they might not even
know that -moz-opacity *isn't* standard (don't scoff, it happens!).



They'll soon find out when they test it in IE :-)


I don't immediately see the benefit to the UA developers using a
custom rule... Why not just use the real thing? I can only assume
there's something about the process that I'm not aware of.



Because the real thing doesn't exist yet - of the 31 parts of CSS 3  
(not counting the Introduction), just three are currently at the  
Candidate Recommendation stage (one step before becoming a  
Recommendation), while two others have been at that stage, then  
dropped back to Working Draft.


Any use of vendor-specific stuff is purely for experimental purposes,  
and should never be used in the real world.


Regards,

Nick.
--
Nick Fitzsimons
http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/





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Re: [WSG] Accessibility - display: none v.s. left: -9999px

[Nick Fitzsimons]

On 15 Feb 2007, at 02:06:11, Michael MD wrote:

Do any screen readers support some kind of metadata or semantic  
markup that could be used to embed such content in the page?




No, because screen readers never actually see the markup - they're  
designed to work with Windows applications that support MSAA  
(Microsoft Active Accessibility), not just browsers. (After all, a  
user who paid all that money for Jaws would probably be pretty  
annoyed if all it could do was read web pages, but not email or Excel  
spreadsheets.)


So what happens is that the application does whatever it does (e.g. a  
browser parses and renders the page, Excel parses a file and builds a  
visual representation of a spreadsheet) and then exposes the contents  
of its display to the screen reader via the MSAA API. The screen  
reader then queries the application via that API to find out what is  
being displayed, and reads it out.


This is presumably why "display: none" and "visibility: hidden" don't  
work, but "margin-left: -px" does - in the first two cases, the  
element is never made a part of whatever internal representation of  
the render tree IE builds for its display (this is not the same as  
the DOM, by the way), whereas in the last case it _is_ included in  
the internal representation, but when that representation is actually  
drawn on the screen, it is in a position where Window's built-in  
clipping to window boundaries means it is never seen.


So any attempt to include markup "just for screen readers" is doomed  
to failure - screen readers don't use markup.


Please note that I'm not claiming to be an expert on this particular  
topic, but I think this explanation covers what actually happens.


There's more info on MSAA (primarily aimed at application developers) at




and you can get some idea of the range of applications other than web  
browsers (from Access to WinZip :-) that Jaws is used with from the  
dropdown list on the FAQ page:





Regards,

Nick.
--
Nick Fitzsimons
http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/





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Re: [WSG] Web Writing Instructors (possibly OT)

[Tim]

He asked for specific things that a trainer would know:

Web Standards, semantic markup and preparing content
from an SEO viewpoint


I checked out the course details and it has very little on SEO or 
accessibility.
And $10,000 being cheaper than face to face. Fly me to Lake Macquarie 
for half that amount and I will do an excellent job.


http://www.hereticpress.com/Dogstar/Resume/TJAResume.html

Tim


On 14/02/2007, at 9:25 PM, Miriam Richardson wrote:


Hi,




Here is online training designed specifically for what you ask:

http://www.qwickit.com/

Cheers
Miriam



On 14/02/07, Paul Hempsall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


I apologise if this is a tad OT. Please send replies offlist.

Just wondering if anyone can provide me with some referrals for Web
Writing trainers?

Ideally, the trainer would:

1. Be familiar with Web Standards, semantic markup and preparing 
content

from an SEO viewpoint
2. Can advise our Content Editors in what qualifies as "quality" web
content (from a reader/customer perspective)

3. Demonstrate how to adapt content for the web - writing techniques 
for

the web medium
4. Is mindful of writing content so that it is accessible
5. Be willing to work with our Training Officer to assist in 
developing

a course that we'll be able to deliver in-house in the future.

Initially we'd be looking at training 20-25 people, on location at
beautiful Lake Macquarie (so you'd most likely be from the
Sydney/Newcastle/Hunter region).

Some of our staff has participated in courses run through the UTS,
however I've had trouble locating these trainers.

Again, sorry if this is OT!

Best Regards,


Paul Hempsall
Web Developer


Lake Macquarie City Council
Phone: (02) 4921-0713
Fax: (02) 4921-0566
Web: http://www.lakemac.com.au

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or distribution of this message or any information it contains, by 
anyone other than the addressee is prohibited by the sender.


Any views expressed in this communication are those of the individual 
sender, except where the sender specifically states them to be the 
views of Council.



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--
Miriam Richardson

021 129 8317


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The Editor
Heretic Press
http://www.hereticpress.com
Email [EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re: [WSG] Web Writing Instructors (possibly OT)

[Miriam Richardson]

Hi,
Here is online training designed specifically for what you ask:

http://www.qwickit.com/

Cheers
Miriam



On 14/02/07, Paul Hempsall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


I apologise if this is a tad OT. Please send replies offlist.

Just wondering if anyone can provide me with some referrals for Web
Writing trainers?

Ideally, the trainer would:

1. Be familiar with Web Standards, semantic markup and preparing content
from an SEO viewpoint
2. Can advise our Content Editors in what qualifies as "quality" web
content (from a reader/customer perspective)

3. Demonstrate how to adapt content for the web - writing techniques for
the web medium
4. Is mindful of writing content so that it is accessible
5. Be willing to work with our Training Officer to assist in developing
a course that we'll be able to deliver in-house in the future.

Initially we'd be looking at training 20-25 people, on location at
beautiful Lake Macquarie (so you'd most likely be from the
Sydney/Newcastle/Hunter region).

Some of our staff has participated in courses run through the UTS,
however I've had trouble locating these trainers.

Again, sorry if this is OT!

Best Regards,


Paul Hempsall
Web Developer


Lake Macquarie City Council
Phone: (02) 4921-0713
Fax: (02) 4921-0566
Web: http://www.lakemac.com.au

This information is intended for the addressee only. The use, copying or 
distribution of this message or any information it contains, by anyone other 
than the addressee is prohibited by the sender.

Any views expressed in this communication are those of the individual sender, 
except where the sender specifically states them to be the views of Council.


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--
Miriam Richardson

021 129 8317


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Re: [WSG] CSS and non-standard properties

[David Dorward]

On Wed, Feb 14, 2007 at 01:28:18PM +0900, Philippe Wittenbergh wrote:
> Once a CSS3 draft enters a more stable stage (last-call) or similar,  
> the vendor can always alias their implemented name to the real thing,  
> internally.

> Who knows what the real property name will be ?

Or if it will still act, and take the same values, as the initial
experimental implementation. This allows for properties that
drastically change to become standard without breaking older versions
of browsers which implemented an experimental version.

-- 
David Dorward  http://dorward.me.uk



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