Re: one liner

[Paul Makepeace]

On Sat, Jan 06, 2001 at 10:12:37PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote:
> the only thing that gives potential for the marketing of a language is the
> projects that are achieved using it and java has a hell of a lot more cool 
> projects than perl

I've been playing with Akopia ne' MiniVend/Tallyman which of course is
written in perl and certainly from a functionality point of view it's
very, very cool and is a serious-weight app.

I haven't dug into its internals yet but it looks pretty sophisticated
with shades of Template.pm even.

http://developer.akopia.com/

I would definitely count this as a Perl success story.

Like it not, Matt Wright's stuff is a perl success story if
only from a bums-on-seats PoV...

Paul

Re: one liner

[alex]

On Sat, 6 Jan 2001, Dean S Wilson wrote:
> I agree but I also think that this is one of the problems, the only
> people who see the modules are other perl coders.

indeed.  there are few end-user perl apps.

in my eyes Perl is not particularly good for programs written by one
person, or in small groups working closely together, or by highly
experienced programmers.  maybe this is why you don't end up with many
good, generalised Perl applications.  at the least, Perl development needs
to be well managed, perhaps a little more than most.

perhaps perl6 will solve this, but it seems to me that Perl programmers
have so much choice, that every Perl hacker uses a different sub-language
within Perl.  for example, i dislike Perl with map()'s that throw away
return values, and most uses of unless(), but do plenty to annoy other
programers - for example strange data hiding techniques.

well that's all negative, so i'll go on to say why Perl is the best
language for me...  i believe that Perl allows human expression better
than any other language i've heard of.  most importantly, i can get things
working fast.  i can't use c++ to create art because there is too much
time between the idea and execution - so the idea gets stale before it can
be realised.  with Perl, the creative process continues while i'm in the
coding phase; in fact, that's the only phase i have for my personal
projects...

also the amount of choice allows me to write programs that match my way of
thinking.  i can write a large program and be confident that it will work
first time (apart from syntax errors), because i have been able to
construct the program in my own terms.  i have control over my medium.

the impressive data munging capabilities allow me to create art quickly
and expressively, that has direct 'influences' from the external world...
for example, creating audio based on the structure of motorways taken from
GPS data, or from mailing lists.

and of course the community - CPAN is very useful but exists because of a
sharing and (mostly) friendly community.  if i'm going to use other
people's code in my art this is a highly important point.

so to me, Perl is the most human computer language, and so the most
suitable language for computer art.

alex

ps Tangram and Template Toolkit are great!

-- 
Snack pastries are dramatic when shapes are combined

Re: one liner

[alex]

On Sat, 6 Jan 2001, Dean S Wilson wrote:
> I left (void) and you'l not take me back alive! Outlook canne take the
> strain!

i think london.pm is busier than (void) nowadays, a lot of the
thought-provoking people left

-- 
Snack pastries are dramatic when shapes are combined

Re: one liner

[Dean S Wilson]

-Original Message-
From: Greg McCarroll <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


>Ok, we are not (void) but we are pretty close so here is a one liner
that
>hopefully will provote discussion 


I left (void) and you'l not take me back alive! Outlook canne take the
strain!

>the only thing that gives potential for the marketing of a language
is the
>projects that are achieved using it and java has a hell of a lot more
cool
>projects than perl

I think that marketing is the key term in this mail. Java has a good
marketing team and is being taught in universities at the moment,
nothing better than having a lot of fresh faced advocates being
spawned at the end of each term.

Dean (Playing both sides in this one)

--
Profanity is the one language all programmers understand.
   ---  Anon

Re: one liner

[Dean S Wilson]

-Original Message-
From: Michael Stevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


Greg are you trolling? If so let me play ;)

>> the only thing that gives potential for the marketing of a language
is the
>> projects that are achieved using it and java has a hell of a lot
more cool
>> projects than perl

>What are these mysterious cool java projects that no-one's been
telling
>me about?


Fortay's a good example. A Java IDE written in Java, and under Linux
it's pretty quick even on 64 MB ram.


IBM developerworks and Alphaworks have tftp and dhcp servers in Java.
I wouldn't run them though :)

>I think the best thing people can do for the language is create good
things
>and modules and whatever using it.

I agree but I also think that this is one of the problems, the only
people who see the modules are other perl coders. I'm not saying that
modules are a bad thing or a waste of effort, I'd hate to think about
writing the code for half of the modules I use on a regular basis but
the only people who really understand and use them are perl coders,
people who know that perl is good. I think Greg means making something
a little more visible, How many netusers see the powered by python
logo on mailman each day? Whats our answer to that? Slashcode?

Plying devils advocate is fun.
Dean
--
Profanity is the one language all programmers understand.
   ---  Anon

Re: one liner

[Michael Stevens]

On Sat, Jan 06, 2001 at 10:12:37PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote:
> Ok, we are not (void) but we are pretty close so here is a one liner that
> hopefully will provote discussion 
> the only thing that gives potential for the marketing of a language is the
> projects that are achieved using it and java has a hell of a lot more cool 
> projects than perl
> 

What are these mysterious cool java projects that no-one's been telling
me about?

> 
> /me is thinking of a new london.pm project called ``ignore the perl 6 body
> and parallel to it lets create our own perl propoganda/marketting/best 
> practice/for the good fo the language movement''  

I think the best thing people can do for the language is create good things
and modules and whatever using it.

one liner

[Greg McCarroll]

Ok, we are not (void) but we are pretty close so here is a one liner that
hopefully will provote discussion 

the only thing that gives potential for the marketing of a language is the
projects that are achieved using it and java has a hell of a lot more cool 
projects than perl





































































































/me is thinking of a new london.pm project called ``ignore the perl 6 body
and parallel to it lets create our own perl propoganda/marketting/best 
practice/for the good fo the language movement''  

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net

Re: - The Register is working for the enemy

[Richard Clamp]

On Sat, Jan 06, 2001 at 01:05:47PM -, Simon Batistoni wrote:
> I quote:
> 
> "A majority of Websites that incorporate user interaction and
> personalization rely on PHP"
>  ^^

I'm getting a strong feeling of deja-vu, pointing back to the survey of used
modules.

Of course it's interesting to note that the reg site itself is a twisted
heap of mod_perl spewed forth from the fevered brains of Birmingham.pm.

Which is nice.

-- 
Richard Clamp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Re: copious free time

[Greg McCarroll]

* Tony Bowden ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 03:00:39PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote:
> > i think the real question (not specifically about h2g2) is what happened to
> > cost/benefit analysis (and i'm talking about benefit to the profit sheet
> > not some imaginary paper money IPO value)?
> 
> Also know as the first rule of finance:
> 
> "Don't run out of money".
> 

yeah, that goes very well with C/B analysis - eg.

wow if i hire these 20 great programmers in 6 months i will make 4 million,
ok they cost 1 million but thats still 3 million profit

errr i only have a budget of 100k 

*poof goes the IPO dream*


-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net

Re: hosting at datacentre.barnyard.co.uk

[Greg McCarroll]

* David Cantrell ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> 
> Perhaps we could work it into not-paranoia :-)  [note to self - generate
> character]
> 

cc'ing this to london.pm as i haven't established a list of the 
players yet 

the sooner people get a character brief outline based on the very
very very simple instructions listed on the site, the more likely
they are to have interesting stuff to do in the game

-greg

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net

Re: - The Register is working for the enemy

[Graham Hart]

Simon Batistoni wrote:
> 
> I quote:
> 
> "A majority of Websites that incorporate user interaction and
> personalization rely on PHP"
>  ^^

Surely to be in context .. 
"A majority of Websites that incorporate user interaction and
personalization rely on PHP to demonstrate the crappiness of sharing
code and html and so the clever people are using Perl"

oh well, I can dream.. 

Cheers 

Graham



> 
> Full story:
> 
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/15862.html
> 
> Simon Batistoni,
> CTO, Userfrenzy.com Ltd.
> 
> e: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> p: +44 20 7209 4117

Re: copious free time

[Greg McCarroll]

* David H. Adler ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 03:25:02PM +, Neil Ford wrote:
> > >
> > >I'd re-launch Surrey.pm and hold meetings in Guildford if I thought
> > >there'd be anyone there but me... :-(=
> > >
> > Nat and I would probably come... but then I suspect the conversation 
> > wouldn't stay on the subject of Perl for very long... advantage being 
> > we could always hold them outdoors in the summer :-)
> 
> You people talk about *perl*???  What kind of perl mongers group *are*
> you???
> 

hey! at least we can arrange the meeting place/date in less than a thousand
posts ;-)

-greg

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net

Re: Technical Meeting

[Greg McCarroll]

* dcross - David Cross ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> From: David H. Adler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: 05 January 2001 17:14
> 
> > On Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 11:38:50AM +, Greg McCarroll wrote:
> > > 
> > > i can do 20 minutes on SOAP (not 20 mins squeezed into 5) ;-)
> > 
> > Important distinction... :-)
> 
> He's having a pop at me. I made him change his 20 min talk into a lightning
> talk last time :)
> 

more like a pip, a very gentle pop ;-)

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net

Re: copious free time

[Tony Bowden]

On Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 03:00:39PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote:
> i think the real question (not specifically about h2g2) is what happened to
> cost/benefit analysis (and i'm talking about benefit to the profit sheet
> not some imaginary paper money IPO value)?

Also know as the first rule of finance:

"Don't run out of money".

Tony
-- 
-
 Tony Bowden | Belfast, NI | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | www.tmtm.com | www.blackstar.co.uk
 girlboys may nothing more than boygirls need
-

Re: copious free time

[Greg McCarroll]

* David Hodgkinson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> Natalie Ford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> > At 12:54 05/01/01, you wrote:
> > >Well it's now official, and if I didn't tart around you last night then I'm
> > >available for work due to the unfortunate explodingness of oven.
> > 
> > Oops - oven too[1]?  Is it something in the water?
> > 
> > Natalie
> > 
> > [1] EmapOnline, h2g2, ...
> 
> What happened to h2g2?
> 

i think the real question (not specifically about h2g2) is what happened to
cost/benefit analysis (and i'm talking about benefit to the profit sheet
not some imaginary paper money IPO value)?

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net

Re: Books

[Kieran Barry]

On Thu, 4 Jan 2001, David H. Adler wrote:

> On Thu, Jan 04, 2001 at 01:59:05PM +, David Hodgkinson wrote:
> > Struan Donald <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > > 
> > > er, what's wrong with foyles if it's not a silly question?
> > 
> > Insane filing system
> 
> They (used to, at least) file their Science Fiction (and some other
> sections) by publisher rather than author or even title.  Good luck
> finding a book if you don't know the publisher...
> 
The computing section is somewhat more sane these days.

And anyway, computing by publisher is getting a lot better. You just
browse O'Reilly, Addison Wesley and Prentice Hall.


If they were to sort by Publisher, shouldn't they subsort by ISBN?


Thinking can definitely damage your health :(

Regards

Kieran

- The Register is working for the enemy

[Simon Batistoni]

I quote:

"A majority of Websites that incorporate user interaction and
personalization rely on PHP"
 ^^

Full story:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/15862.html

Simon Batistoni,
CTO, Userfrenzy.com Ltd.

e: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
p: +44 20 7209 4117

More Visitors

[Dave Cross]

We're so popular!

At the official February monthly meeting (i.e. not the McCarroll
heretics meeting) we'll be graced with the presence of Mark-Jason
Dominus.

Dave...

-- 
http://www.dave.org.uk | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Data Munging with Perl