I actually disagree, as self-education is not synonymous with
narrow-mindedness, and often is quite the opposite, being the mother of
erudition.
Rainer aus dem Klo is rather erudite (if narrowly), while his longstanding
propensity to insult others shows him to be simply a sociopath.
RT
Roman,
you are the right person to write
...longstanding propensity to insult others
Rgds,
Franz
From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] on 22-09-2004 08:26 AST
To:
LUTE-LIST [EMAIL PROTECTED]
cc:
Subject:
Re: Complete copy of the 6-course vihuela by Belchior Dias
I have never been unkind to the undeserving.
RT
Roman,
you are the right person to write
...longstanding propensity to insult others
Rgds,
Franz
I actually disagree, as self-education is not synonymous with
narrow-mindedness, and often is quite the opposite, being the mother of
the i ching advises us to avoid the self educated as
they tend to become tedious.
installng a filter to hear only what you want to hear
...and disregard the rest (as the song goes) can
only bring that process closer to home.
- bill
--- adS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Dear Antonio,
it should
Dear Antonio,
it should be possible to set up filter rules for your yahoo account.
RT is on my filter list and hence I happily did NOT receive the 16 [sic!] mails
he has posted today.
Best wishes
Rainer adS
Antonio Corona wrote:
Just a small notice: in future I shall not respond to
mail by
Since these are but mere interests they were dismissed
as lacking opinion.
RT
Since these are but mere opinions they were dismissed
as lacking interest.
AC
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
whatever alexander batov calls his beautifully made
instrument is fine with me - i call it desireable.
you say potato
i say potato
let's call the hole thing spud
rasgueado means never having to say you're strumming -
bill
We are comparing pink and yellow grapefruits, I'm
afraid.
If such is the case please do tell us what are the
lute's equivalents of vihuela and guitar.
A succulent 11/13-course vs. mealy 8-course mandora.
Apples and
pears still, i'm afraid, and still a deficient
methodological
We know what you are driving at. I hope these are desirable enough for YOU
to get something of the sort, without the aid of South American roadkill.
RT
__
Roman M. Turovsky
http://polyhymnion.org/swv
whatever alexander batov calls his beautifully made
instrument is fine with me - i
I am questioning a rather dubious methodological
approach, and I have stated my reasons for considering
it as such. If that reminds you of MO's atacks, it is
your privilege to believe so.
If you accept E.7 as a vihuela there is no reason not to accept Diaz.
As to endangering a
--- bill kilpatrick [EMAIL PROTECTED]
escribió:
whatever alexander batov calls his beautifully made
instrument is fine with me - i call it desireable.
So it may be, bill, so it may be. As long as he does
not claim he is following historical criteria for
designing and making it. That put
--- bill kilpatrick [EMAIL PROTECTED]
escribi?? whatever alexander batov calls his beautifully made
instrument is fine with me - i call it desireable.
So it may be, bill, so it may be. As long as he does
not claim he is following historical criteria for
designing and making it. That
--- Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió:
We are comparing pink and yellow grapefruits, I'm
afraid.
If such is the case please do tell us what are the
lute's equivalents of vihuela and guitar.
A succulent 11/13-course vs. mealy 8-course mandora.
If the comparison is
--- Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió:
--- bill kilpatrick [EMAIL PROTECTED]
escribi?? whatever alexander batov calls his
beautifully made
instrument is fine with me - i call it
desireable.
So it may be, bill, so it may be. As long as he
does
not claim he is
Since none of the questions posed below have been
answered, I shall consider that they have been evaded
from lack of an adequate response.
--- Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió:
If the comparison is apposite and germane to the
discussion, now please tell us about the
similarities
Suit yourself
RT
Since none of the questions posed below have been
answered, I shall consider that they have been evaded
from lack of an adequate response.
--- Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribi?? If the comparison is
apposite and germane to the
discussion, now please tell us
--- Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió:
--- Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED]
escribi?? I am questioning a
rather dubious methodological
approach, and I have stated my reasons for
considering
it as such. If that reminds you of MO's atacks,
it
is
your privilege to believe
I certainly wiil
--- Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió:
Suit yourself
RT
Since none of the questions posed below have been
answered, I shall consider that they have been
evaded
from lack of an adequate response.
--- Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED]
escribi?? If the
--- Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribi?? --- bill kilpatrick
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
escribi?? whatever alexander batov calls his
beautifully made
instrument is fine with me - i call it
desireable.
So it may be, bill, so it may be. As long as he
does
not claim he is following
I accept the E.0748 as a six-course vihuela; I
accept
the Dias instrument for what it may be: either a
five-course guitar or a five course-vihuela, both
options can be defended. I prefer (and stress
prefer) to consider it a guitar taking into
account
the historical and musical context at
Since these are but mere opinions they were dismissed
as lacking interest.
--- Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió:
I accept the E.0748 as a six-course vihuela; I
accept
the Dias instrument for what it may be: either a
five-course guitar or a five course-vihuela,
both
Just a small notice: in future I shall not respond to
mail by Roman Turovsky that, in my opinion, is
uninteresting or offers little or no contribution to
our knowledge.
My apologies for hogging the list.
With best wishes for everyone,
Antonio
I wasn't talking about circumstantial evidence. Solving a murder that left
no corpse (nor a painting thereof) behind is an ungrateful thing.
RT
__
Roman M. Turovsky
http://polyhymnion.org/swv
Are you suggesting that my research and conclusions
about the vihuela are based on wishful
Sweeping generalizations (Anyone's notion of vihuela
is legitimate, regardless of the fact that it is
based on wishful thinking, given the profusion of
tangible vihuela evidence) based on the ignorance of
the subject (murder that left no corpse (nor a
painting thereof) behind) are rather poor
Besides the corpse (Paris, cité de la musique, E.0748,
being the most obvious), this particular murder left
behind a most enlightening iconographical trail.
The differences between E.0748 and Diaz seem to be similar to the
differences between Hoffmann and Edlinger, one being wider than the
Besides the corpse (Paris, cité de la musique, E.0748,
being the most obvious), this particular murder left
behind a most enlightening iconographical trail. I
would suggest that you have a look at: Florence
Gétreau, L'iconographie de la vihuela, in _Aux
origenes de la guitar: la vihuela de
--- Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió:
Besides the corpse (Paris, cité de la musique,
E.0748,
being the most obvious), this particular murder
left
behind a most enlightening iconographical trail.
The differences between E.0748 and Diaz seem to be
similar to the
differences
have a look at: Florence
Gétreau, L'iconographie de la vihuela, in _Aux
origenes de la guitar: la vihuela de mano_, les
cahiers du museé de la musique 5, Paris: cité de la
musique, 2004, pp. 41-49, ... that is, unless you
desire to create the category wishful painting.
Google returns nothing
--- Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió:
Besides the corpse (Paris, cité de la musique,
E.0748,
being the most obvious), this particular murder
left
behind a most enlightening iconographical trail. I
would suggest that you have a look at: Florence
Gétreau, L'iconographie de la
--- Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribi?? Besides the corpse
(Paris, cit?e la musique,
E.0748,
being the most obvious), this particular murder
left
behind a most enlightening iconographical trail. I
would suggest that you have a look at: Florence
G?eau, L'iconographie de la vihuela,
--- Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió:
--- Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED]
escribi?? Besides the corpse
(Paris, cit?e la musique,
E.0748,
being the most obvious), this particular murder
left
behind a most enlightening iconographical trail.
I
would suggest that you have
E.0748,
being the most obvious), this particular murder
left
behind a most enlightening iconographical trail.
The differences between E.0748 and Diaz seem to be
similar to the
differences between Hoffmann and Edlinger, one being
wider than the other,
while no one questions luteness of
I am questioning a rather dubious methodological
approach, and I have stated my reasons for considering
it as such. If that reminds you of MO's atacks, it is
your privilege to believe so. As to endangering a
livelihood, there is nothing to prevent Mr. Batov from
approching the reconstruction of
--- Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió:
If you want to be creative, you could try the
cit?e
la musique's page,
My French is a bit aproximatif, and besides, my
idea of what's creative is
different.
No doubt
or perhaps Alexander Batov could
let you know how he got
--- Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió:
E.0748,
being the most obvious), this particular murder
left
behind a most enlightening iconographical trail.
The differences between E.0748 and Diaz seem to
be
similar to the
differences between Hoffmann and Edlinger, one
being
Isn't the guitar simply a vihuela missing 1st
and
6th courses in some
vihuelist's words?
RT
__
Roman M. Turovsky
http://polyhymnion.org/swv
No, that is a simplistic and literal
interpretation of
a discussion about tuning and stringing. What
Bermudo
(who was not a
We are all suiting ourselves. Anyone's notion of vihuela is legitimate,
regardless of the fact that it is based on wishful thinking, given the
profusion of tangible vihuela evidence. Some of this wishful thinking is
exceptionally good when translated into lutherie, Cezar Mateus' for example.
We are all suiting ourselves. Anyone's notion of vihuela is legitimate,
regardless of the fact that it is based on wishful thinking, given the
profusion of tangible vihuela evidence. Some of this wishful thinking is
exceptionally good when translated into lutherie, Cezar Mateus' for example.
Are you suggesting that my research and conclusions
about the vihuela are based on wishful thinking?
Not nice ... not nice
Antonio
--- Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió:
Isn't the guitar simply a vihuela missing 1st
and
6th courses in some
vihuelist's words?
RT
--- Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió:
To me that might seem most likely to indicate an
early experiment with 6
courses on a guitar. Would that make more sense
historically?
Isn't the guitar simply a vihuela missing 1st
and
6th courses in some
vihuelist's words?
RT
Dear Alexander,
From what you tell, I can gather that your argument
rests mainly on identifying the eleventh hole in the
head as designed to be fitted with a peg. There lies
the problem. We don´t know if it was part of the
original design, which to me seems rather unlikely. We
dont know if at
Perhaps a clue would be if the hole were the correct size to hold a peg,
presumably, though not necessarily, it would be the same size as the other
peg holes. Also, the hole would be slightly conical to accommodate the
shape of the peg. There might also be a residue of chalk, soap or whatever
Perhaps a clue would be if the hole were the correct size to hold a peg,
presumably, though not necessarily, it would be the same size as the other
peg holes. Also, the hole would be slightly conical to accommodate the
shape of the peg. There might also be a residue of chalk, soap or
Dear All,
I think Roman's suggestion does make sense - Stephen Barber, who
has detailed first hand knowledge of the Dias instrument has
shown that its present soundboard dates from the early 18th century
which is unequivocal proof of significant work being carried out to the
instrument long
Deear Alexander,
I´m afraid I still remain unconvinced.
Dear Antonio,
I don't think I am trying to hide the fact that I
speculate here. I =
think I
put it quite clearly by simultaneously disproving
my own theory on the
nature and placement of the 11th hole. So there is
no need to point
- Original Message -
From: Antonio Corona [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Alexander Batov [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 5:48 AM
Subject: Re: Complete copy of the 6-course vihuela by Belchior Dias
Dear Alexander,
I looked with attention at the information on the
website
But nevertheless on p.9 of your article there is the following statement:
By
1591 a five-course vihuela is mentioned alongside a six-course one in the
inventory of the goods left by a lady from Barcelona, which reads: 'there
are three viols, one of nine strings ... one of eleven strings and the
Message -
From: Antonio Corona [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Alexander Batov [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 5:48 AM
Subject: Re: Complete copy of the 6-course vihuela
by Belchior Dias
Dear Alexander,
I looked with attention at the information on the
website you
- Original Message -
From: Antonio Corona [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 6:03 AM
Subject: Re: Complete copy of the 6-course vihuela by Belchior Dias
The Diaz guitar a vihuela? I beg to differ
Greetings
Antonio
The evidence
Antonio Corona [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The Diaz guitar a vihuela? I beg to differ
Greetings
Antonio
The evidence that it is a vihuela is on
http://www.vihuelademano.com/vgcrossroads.htm
Where is yours for The Diaz guitar?
Regards,
AB
www.vihuelademano.com
I've just uploaded some images of the recently finished complete copy of the
6-course vihuela by Belchior Dias, Lisbon 1581. The original instrument,
which is still most commonly referred to as Dias guitar (but is, in fact,
a
vihuela!), is in the Royal College of Music, London.
Alexander Batov
--- Alexander Batov [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió:
I've just uploaded some images of the recently
finished complete copy of the
6-course vihuela by Belchior Dias, Lisbon 1581. The
original instrument,
which is still most commonly referred to as Dias
guitar (but is, in fact, a
vihuela
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