[LUTE] Re: Building a lute - decision

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Thanks Ralf.
   My original reply to Tristan was purposefully brief and so curtailed
   much of the further detail - I simply wished to give him the headlines
   about the gallichon in case there was confusion between it and the
   Italian colascione. If anyone wishes more detail this can be found in
   various journals such as the Lute Society Journal, Galpin Soc Journal,
   FoMRHI Quarterly etc with papers by such as Pietro Prosser, Donald
   Gill, Dieter Kirsch, myself and others.
   Regarding the points you mentioned: you might be right about the lack
   of a clear phonetic path,  but please bear in mind the numerous other
   cognates some of which are quite different to 'gallichon'; sometimes
   the 6th course/string was indeed a tone below the fifth course and
   others a fourth below it; date of overwound - the earliest mention of
   such strings seems to be in the 1664 edition of Playford's Introduction
   to the Skill of Musick where he calls them a late invention - so around
   1660.
   regards
   Martyn
   Virus-free. [1]www.avast.com
 __

   From: Ralf Mattes <r...@mh-freiburg.de>
   To: Mathias Rösel <mathias.roe...@t-online.de>
   Cc: lutelist Net <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Sent: Thursday, 31 August 2017, 17:27
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Building a lute - decision
   Am Donnerstag, 31. August 2017 17:57 CEST, Mathias Rösel
   <[2]mathias.roe...@t-online.de> schrieb:
   >The gallichon (numerous other cognates) is an instrument invented
   in
   >Bohemia around 1660 to take advantage of the newly invented
   overwound
   >strings - it became popular in central Europe and Northern German
   >states. The earlier version was generally tuned with the first
   course
   >at a (top line of bass clef) with six strings tuned in intervals
   below
   >like the modern guitar.
   >
   > Not a e B G D C? (Talbot; Janowka)
   >
   >No doubt the name came from a germanic language
   >corruption of  the existing 3 and 4 string Italian colascione
   I strongly doubt that theory. There is no realistic phonetic path from
   colascione to gallichon. Especially the 'i' in gallichon can't be
   explained.
   It could be a contraction/merge of the two names given by Janowka.
   Also, 1660 sounds rather early for overwound strings.
   Cheers, Ralf Mattes
   To get on or off this list see list information at
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[LUTE] Re: Building a lute - decision

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Whoops! - sorry Ralph.  I've just  looked in my drafts folder and see I
   forgot to actually send it!
   I've now sent it.
   regards,
   Martyn
 __

   From: Ralf Mattes <r...@mh-freiburg.de>
   To:
   Cc: lutelist Net <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Sent: Thursday, 31 August 2017, 19:09
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Building a lute - decision
   Am Donnerstag, 31. August 2017 18:51 CEST, Martyn Hodgson
   <[1]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu> schrieb:
   >Thanks Mathias, See my reply to Ralf which covers some of these
   points.
   ??? Did I miss something. Your reply never made it to me.
   >But to amplify about the the name: I think the point is where
   >did Janowka's names (ie Galizona, or Colachon) themselves spring
   from
   >in the first place? In lieu of other evidence, I'm  still of the
   view
   >of the Italian colascione link.  I don't of course mean that the
   >Bohemian instrument developed from the Italian instrument, merely
   that
   >it provided inspiration for the name as also being a long (very
   long
   >for the colascioneinstrument) necked lute with many fewer strings
   than
   >the contemporary lute
   Do we really know much about the colaschione's origins?
   Cheers, RalfD
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[LUTE] Re: Building a lute - decision

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Donnerstag, 31. August 2017 18:51 CEST, Martyn Hodgson 
 schrieb: 
 
>Thanks Mathias, See my reply to Ralf which covers some of these points.

??? Did I miss something. Your reply never made it to me.

>But to amplify about the the name: I think the point is where
>did Janowka's names (ie Galizona, or Colachon) themselves spring from
>in the first place? In lieu of other evidence, I'm  still of the view
>of the Italian colascione link.  I don't of course mean that the
>Bohemian instrument developed from the Italian instrument, merely that
>it provided inspiration for the name as also being a long (very long
>for the colascioneinstrument) necked lute with many fewer strings than
>the contemporary lute

Do we really know much about the colaschione's origins? 

 Cheers, RalfD





To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Building a lute - decision

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Thanks Mathias, See my reply to Ralf which covers some of these points.
   But to amplify about the the name: I think the point is where
   did Janowka's names (ie Galizona, or Colachon) themselves spring from
   in the first place? In lieu of other evidence, I'm  still of the view
   of the Italian colascione link.  I don't of course mean that the
   Bohemian instrument developed from the Italian instrument, merely that
   it provided inspiration for the name as also being a long (very long
   for the colascioneinstrument) necked lute with many fewer strings than
   the contemporary lute
   Martyn
 __

   From: Mathias Rösel <mathias.roe...@t-online.de>
   To: 'lutelist Net' <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Sent: Thursday, 31 August 2017, 17:00
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Building a lute - decision
 The gallichon (numerous other cognates) is an instrument invented in
 Bohemia around 1660 to take advantage of the newly invented overwound
 strings - it became popular in central Europe and Northern German
 states. The earlier version was generally tuned with the first course
 at a (top line of bass clef) with six strings tuned in intervals
   below
 like the modern guitar.
   Not a e B G D C? (Talbot; Janowka)
 No doubt the name came from a germanic language
 corruption of  the existing 3 and 4 string Italian colascione
   According to Janowka, who was Bohemian, its original name was Galizona,
   or
   Colachon. No doubt, it was confused with the colascione, but my guess
   would
   be that names like Galizona, Calichon, Colachon originated in a Slavic
   environment, rather than Germanic.
   Mathias
   __
 From: Tristan von Neumann <[1]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de>
 To: Andreas Schlegel <[2]lute.cor...@sunrise.ch>; lutelist Net
 <[3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
 Sent: Thursday, 31 August 2017, 8:26
     Subject: [LUTE] Re: Building a lute - decision
 Thank you Andreas,
 I assume Galizona/Gallichon/Colachon/Colascione is probably the same
 word...
 This one you show is quite "new".
 The four string colascione (or similar, if I'm correct I have seen
   one
 with a turtoise shell, also called colascione in Berlin) was
   chosen
 to be adapted to 4 string electric bass players. Frankly, I don't
   care
 if it's unhistoric if I play my 7c Renaissance Lute to it. I want a
 band
 that doesn't need amps and plays passamezzo instead of blues, or
 Elslein
 instead of Somewhere over the Rainbow, it's for improvisational
 purposes.
 ..and you didn't contribute an answer to my question...
 The instrument is very nice though. That is along the lines, just 2
 string too many.
 Am 31.08.2017 um 09:05 schrieb Andreas Schlegel:
 >
 > Am 31.08.2017 um 05:42 schrieb Tristan von Neumann
 > <[1][4]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
   <mailto:[2][5]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de>>:
 >
 >> Sorry for all the questions at once, but there have come up many
   as
 I
 >> am self-taught...
 >> I guess most of you had the urge to build a lute, some may have
 tried,
 >> some became luthiers...
 >> I have the following problem: I am extremely low on budget.
 >> Yet, I want to try. I don't care if the wood isn't prime.
 >> I have a good source for pieces, which I will probably be able to
 cut
 >> with my saw. I own or will own only the most basic tools and will
 try
 >> to contruct some myself.
 >> The glue will have to rest on a candle, and the bending metal too.
 >> I found a blog report of building a lute with old methods.
 >> I have even seen a report about someone who built a violin with,
 >> literally, stone age methods. The result was amazing. It didn't
   look
 >> as smooth and polished, but it sounded extremely warm and
   soothing.
 >> I assume I will face some problems that way.
 >> My ambitious plan is to build
 >> 1. a small bodied colascione with 4 strings to give to electric
   bass
 >> players in the park so we can play together
 >
 > Dear Tristan,
 >
 > The Colascione was - as far as we know until today - never used
 outside
 > of the Neapolitan culture (but Neapolitan players went also to
 Dresden,
 > f.ex.). So the use of the Colascione in the lute context is a
   modern
 > invention.
 > But there's a similar instrument of the lute family: the Galizona.
 > I enclose you a text on that topic which will be published soon.
 > And pictures of my Galizona, a copy of the Edlinger instrument from
 1718
 > (or 28?) which is in Prag (Jiri C

[LUTE] Re: Building a lute - decision

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Donnerstag, 31. August 2017 17:57 CEST, Mathias Rösel 
 schrieb: 
 
>The gallichon (numerous other cognates) is an instrument invented in
>Bohemia around 1660 to take advantage of the newly invented overwound
>strings - it became popular in central Europe and Northern German
>states. The earlier version was generally tuned with the first course
>at a (top line of bass clef) with six strings tuned in intervals below
>like the modern guitar. 
> 
> Not a e B G D C? (Talbot; Janowka)
> 
>No doubt the name came from a germanic language
>corruption of  the existing 3 and 4 string Italian colascione

I strongly doubt that theory. There is no realistic phonetic path from
colascione to gallichon. Especially the 'i' in gallichon can't be explained.

It could be a contraction/merge of the two names given by Janowka.

Also, 1660 sounds rather early for overwound strings. 

Cheers, Ralf Mattes





To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Building a lute - decision

[Mathias Rösel]

   The gallichon (numerous other cognates) is an instrument invented in
   Bohemia around 1660 to take advantage of the newly invented overwound
   strings - it became popular in central Europe and Northern German
   states. The earlier version was generally tuned with the first course
   at a (top line of bass clef) with six strings tuned in intervals below
   like the modern guitar. 

Not a e B G D C? (Talbot; Janowka)

   No doubt the name came from a germanic language
   corruption of  the existing 3 and 4 string Italian colascione

According to Janowka, who was Bohemian, its original name was Galizona, or
Colachon. No doubt, it was confused with the colascione, but my guess would
be that names like Galizona, Calichon, Colachon originated in a Slavic
environment, rather than Germanic.

Mathias




 __

   From: Tristan von Neumann <tristanvonneum...@gmx.de>
   To: Andreas Schlegel <lute.cor...@sunrise.ch>; lutelist Net
   <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Sent: Thursday, 31 August 2017, 8:26
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Building a lute - decision
   Thank you Andreas,
   I assume Galizona/Gallichon/Colachon/Colascione is probably the same
   word...
   This one you show is quite "new".
   The four string colascione (or similar, if I'm correct I have seen one
   with a turtoise shell, also called colascione in Berlin) was chosen
   to be adapted to 4 string electric bass players. Frankly, I don't care
   if it's unhistoric if I play my 7c Renaissance Lute to it. I want a
   band
   that doesn't need amps and plays passamezzo instead of blues, or
   Elslein
   instead of Somewhere over the Rainbow, it's for improvisational
   purposes.
   ..and you didn't contribute an answer to my question...
   The instrument is very nice though. That is along the lines, just 2
   string too many.
   Am 31.08.2017 um 09:05 schrieb Andreas Schlegel:
   >
   > Am 31.08.2017 um 05:42 schrieb Tristan von Neumann
   > <[1]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de <mailto:[2]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de>>:
   >
   >> Sorry for all the questions at once, but there have come up many as
   I
   >> am self-taught...
   >> I guess most of you had the urge to build a lute, some may have
   tried,
   >> some became luthiers...
   >> I have the following problem: I am extremely low on budget.
   >> Yet, I want to try. I don't care if the wood isn't prime.
   >> I have a good source for pieces, which I will probably be able to
   cut
   >> with my saw. I own or will own only the most basic tools and will
   try
   >> to contruct some myself.
   >> The glue will have to rest on a candle, and the bending metal too.
   >> I found a blog report of building a lute with old methods.
   >> I have even seen a report about someone who built a violin with,
   >> literally, stone age methods. The result was amazing. It didn't look
   >> as smooth and polished, but it sounded extremely warm and soothing.
   >> I assume I will face some problems that way.
   >> My ambitious plan is to build
   >> 1. a small bodied colascione with 4 strings to give to electric bass
   >> players in the park so we can play together
   >
   > Dear Tristan,
   >
   > The Colascione was - as far as we know until today - never used
   outside
   > of the Neapolitan culture (but Neapolitan players went also to
   Dresden,
   > f.ex.). So the use of the Colascione in the lute context is a modern
   > invention.
   > But there's a similar instrument of the lute family: the Galizona.
   > I enclose you a text on that topic which will be published soon.
   > And pictures of my Galizona, a copy of the Edlinger instrument from
   1718
   > (or 28?) which is in Prag (Jiri Cepelak read this label "1718", but
   the
   > third cipher is not really clear). For pictures of the original see
   here:
   > [3]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/38b.htm
   >
   > All the best,
   >
   > Andreas
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >> 2. a Renaissance guitar to give to Ukulele players
   >> 3. a 6 course Lute after Laux Maler for myself, as I own a somewhat
   >> flawed lute (7 course, and I like it still because it's my first)
   >>
   >> I also like to build one of the above to find out what may be the
   >> problem with my lute (towards the top strings, the tone of unfretted
   >> strings is never stable, even with new strings - maybe someone can
   >> identify that).
   >> My question is: what instrument would be the most reasonable to
   build
   >> first, so I face less frustrating situations when making myself
   >> familiar with this kind of work. I have experience in building
   >> speakers, and I bui

[LUTE] Re: Building a lute - decision

[Martyn Hodgson]

   The gallichon (numerous other cognates) is an instrument invented in
   Bohemia around 1660 to take advantage of the newly invented overwound
   strings - it became popular in central Europe and Northern German
   states. The earlier version was generally tuned with the first course
   at a (top line of bass clef) with six strings tuned in intervals below
   like the modern guitar. No doubt the name came from a germanic language
   corruption of  the existing 3 and 4 string Italian colascione - but it
   is a very different instrument.  It was originally used for continuo
   and allowed a robust sound from the lowest bass and, unlike the
   theorbo, was fully chomatic down to contrabass ,A (ie below bass clef).
   Later on smaller versions were made and there is a substantial
   intabulkated repertoire for this up to around 1800.
   MH
 __

   From: Tristan von Neumann <tristanvonneum...@gmx.de>
   To: Andreas Schlegel <lute.cor...@sunrise.ch>; lutelist Net
   <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Sent: Thursday, 31 August 2017, 8:26
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Building a lute - decision
   Thank you Andreas,
   I assume Galizona/Gallichon/Colachon/Colascione is probably the same
   word...
   This one you show is quite "new".
   The four string colascione (or similar, if I'm correct I have seen one
   with a turtoise shell, also called colascione in Berlin) was chosen
   to be adapted to 4 string electric bass players. Frankly, I don't care
   if it's unhistoric if I play my 7c Renaissance Lute to it. I want a
   band
   that doesn't need amps and plays passamezzo instead of blues, or
   Elslein
   instead of Somewhere over the Rainbow, it's for improvisational
   purposes.
   ..and you didn't contribute an answer to my question...
   The instrument is very nice though. That is along the lines, just 2
   string too many.
   Am 31.08.2017 um 09:05 schrieb Andreas Schlegel:
   >
   > Am 31.08.2017 um 05:42 schrieb Tristan von Neumann
   > <[1]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de <mailto:[2]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de>>:
   >
   >> Sorry for all the questions at once, but there have come up many as
   I
   >> am self-taught...
   >> I guess most of you had the urge to build a lute, some may have
   tried,
   >> some became luthiers...
   >> I have the following problem: I am extremely low on budget.
   >> Yet, I want to try. I don't care if the wood isn't prime.
   >> I have a good source for pieces, which I will probably be able to
   cut
   >> with my saw. I own or will own only the most basic tools and will
   try
   >> to contruct some myself.
   >> The glue will have to rest on a candle, and the bending metal too.
   >> I found a blog report of building a lute with old methods.
   >> I have even seen a report about someone who built a violin with,
   >> literally, stone age methods. The result was amazing. It didn't look
   >> as smooth and polished, but it sounded extremely warm and soothing.
   >> I assume I will face some problems that way.
   >> My ambitious plan is to build
   >> 1. a small bodied colascione with 4 strings to give to electric bass
   >> players in the park so we can play together
   >
   > Dear Tristan,
   >
   > The Colascione was - as far as we know until today - never used
   outside
   > of the Neapolitan culture (but Neapolitan players went also to
   Dresden,
   > f.ex.). So the use of the Colascione in the lute context is a modern
   > invention.
   > But there's a similar instrument of the lute family: the Galizona.
   > I enclose you a text on that topic which will be published soon.
   > And pictures of my Galizona, a copy of the Edlinger instrument from
   1718
   > (or 28?) which is in Prag (Jiri Cepelak read this label "1718", but
   the
   > third cipher is not really clear). For pictures of the original see
   here:
   > [3]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/38b.htm
   >
   > All the best,
   >
   > Andreas
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >> 2. a Renaissance guitar to give to Ukulele players
   >> 3. a 6 course Lute after Laux Maler for myself, as I own a somewhat
   >> flawed lute (7 course, and I like it still because it's my first)
   >>
   >> I also like to build one of the above to find out what may be the
   >> problem with my lute (towards the top strings, the tone of unfretted
   >> strings is never stable, even with new strings - maybe someone can
   >> identify that).
   >> My question is: what instrument would be the most reasonable to
   build
   >> first, so I face less frustrating situations when making myself
   >> familiar with this kind of work. I have experience in buildi

[LUTE] Re: Building a lute - decision

[Tristan von Neumann]

This is actually very helpful!

My Budget is minimal and cannot afford 80 UK quid. Or it could, but then 
I'd have to wait again to buy the wood.
I also already bought Ekkehard Sachs's German book on Lute building, 
which gives many solutions, not only for Renaissance Lute or Baroque 
alone. (It's really good) It just doesn't describe so much how it could 
go wrong though.


But is you say the guyterne would be *much* easier, I'll definitely will 
start with that first, then the Colascione for practicing the lute body 
construction on a small body.
What forces am I to fight with the 4 course? I understand the body is 
slanted in profile, or is that not always the case?



Am 31.08.2017 um 13:57 schrieb RCP:

Hello Tristan,

How much is your budget?

Check out Van Edward's DVD course on lute building. Even if you can't 
afford the tools and materials to build as he instructs, you will still 
know what you are aiming for, what pitfalls to avoid, etc.


A 4 course guitar would be a much easier project to start.

I built my first lute in 1990 (and old EMS Workshop kit - a stretch to 
afford it at the time) and learned much, and much that I would do better 
next time.


Let me know if you need URLs to find any of this.


Bob Purrenhage


On 8/30/2017 11:42 PM, Tristan von Neumann wrote:
Sorry for all the questions at once, but there have come up many as I 
am self-taught...
I guess most of you had the urge to build a lute, some may have tried, 
some became luthiers...

I have the following problem: I am extremely low on budget.
Yet, I want to try. I don't care if the wood isn't prime.
I have a good source for pieces, which I will probably be able to cut 
with my saw. I own or will own only the most basic tools and will try 
to contruct some myself.

The glue will have to rest on a candle, and the bending metal too.
I found a blog report of building a lute with old methods.
I have even seen a report about someone who built a violin with, 
literally, stone age methods. The result was amazing. It didn't look 
as smooth and polished, but it sounded extremely warm and soothing.

I assume I will face some problems that way.
My ambitious plan is to build
1. a small bodied colascione with 4 strings to give to electric bass 
players in the park so we can play together

2. a Renaissance guitar to give to Ukulele players
3. a 6 course Lute after Laux Maler for myself, as I own a somewhat 
flawed lute (7 course, and I like it still because it's my first)


I also like to build one of the above to find out what may be the 
problem with my lute (towards the top strings, the tone of unfretted 
strings is never stable, even with new strings - maybe someone can 
identify that).
My question is: what instrument would be the most reasonable to build 
first, so I face less frustrating situations when making myself 
familiar with this kind of work. I have experience in building 
speakers, and I built a not really satisfying symphony hurdy-gurdy 
from hardware store materials. (The wood for the wheel was too soft, 
and the body was modern plywood...etc, needs some work and will still 
not be medieval...).

I would rather invest my time in a plucked string project.
What would the experienced amongst you advise, given the restrictions 
above?


Cheers,
Tristan



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Building a lute - decision

[Tristan von Neumann]

Thank you Andreas,

I assume Galizona/Gallichon/Colachon/Colascione is probably the same 
word...

This one you show is quite "new".
The four string colascione (or similar, if I'm correct I have seen one 
with a turtoise shell, also called colascione in Berlin) was chosen 
to be adapted to 4 string electric bass players. Frankly, I don't care 
if it's unhistoric if I play my 7c Renaissance Lute to it. I want a band 
that doesn't need amps and plays passamezzo instead of blues, or Elslein 
instead of Somewhere over the Rainbow, it's for improvisational purposes.

..and you didn't contribute an answer to my question...
The instrument is very nice though. That is along the lines, just 2 
string too many.




Am 31.08.2017 um 09:05 schrieb Andreas Schlegel:


Am 31.08.2017 um 05:42 schrieb Tristan von Neumann 
>:


Sorry for all the questions at once, but there have come up many as I 
am self-taught...
I guess most of you had the urge to build a lute, some may have tried, 
some became luthiers...

I have the following problem: I am extremely low on budget.
Yet, I want to try. I don't care if the wood isn't prime.
I have a good source for pieces, which I will probably be able to cut 
with my saw. I own or will own only the most basic tools and will try 
to contruct some myself.

The glue will have to rest on a candle, and the bending metal too.
I found a blog report of building a lute with old methods.
I have even seen a report about someone who built a violin with, 
literally, stone age methods. The result was amazing. It didn't look 
as smooth and polished, but it sounded extremely warm and soothing.

I assume I will face some problems that way.
My ambitious plan is to build
1. a small bodied colascione with 4 strings to give to electric bass 
players in the park so we can play together


Dear Tristan,

The Colascione was - as far as we know until today - never used outside 
of the Neapolitan culture (but Neapolitan players went also to Dresden, 
f.ex.). So the use of the Colascione in the lute context is a modern 
invention.

But there's a similar instrument of the lute family: the Galizona.
I enclose you a text on that topic which will be published soon.
And pictures of my Galizona, a copy of the Edlinger instrument from 1718 
(or 28?) which is in Prag (Jiri Cepelak read this label "1718", but the 
third cipher is not really clear). For pictures of the original see here:

http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/38b.htm

All the best,

Andreas












2. a Renaissance guitar to give to Ukulele players
3. a 6 course Lute after Laux Maler for myself, as I own a somewhat 
flawed lute (7 course, and I like it still because it's my first)


I also like to build one of the above to find out what may be the 
problem with my lute (towards the top strings, the tone of unfretted 
strings is never stable, even with new strings - maybe someone can 
identify that).
My question is: what instrument would be the most reasonable to build 
first, so I face less frustrating situations when making myself 
familiar with this kind of work. I have experience in building 
speakers, and I built a not really satisfying symphony hurdy-gurdy 
from hardware store materials. (The wood for the wheel was too soft, 
and the body was modern plywood...etc, needs some work and will still 
not be medieval...).

I would rather invest my time in a plucked string project.
What would the experienced amongst you advise, given the restrictions 
above?


Cheers,
Tristan



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Andreas Schlegel
Eckstr. 6
CH-5737 Menziken
+41 (0)62 771 47 07
lute.cor...@sunrise.ch