[LUTE] Re: SWAN NECK vs. BASS RIDER
Barto recorded Vol.1 on a Jauch lute like you's see here http://polyhymnion.org/swv/vita.html on which that particular Eb isn't frettable. Currently he is using a didderent lute, with a bass-rider. RT Dear lute friends: Excuse me in case I'm boring you with too much newcomer questions, probably over-answered in the past. Well, let's go to the matter. It's said all around that the ideal lute to play S.L. Weiss is the know as swan neck or theorboed model and, really, the most of the recordings published till now are related to lutenists performing on a swan neck baroque lute. I'm now studying the Prelude from the Suite in d minor (Dresden Manuscript, Volume 1, Suite n. 7, in the Jean-Daniel Forget public domain edition), one of the best Weiss preludes, for my taste, -extraordinarily well performed by Robert Barto (Sonatas vol. 3 track 14)- and I'm realising that Mr. Barto raises one octave up some basses that demand to be played e.g. on the first fret of the 10th course (Eb). I'm sure the reason is he's playing on a swan neck preventing him to play these notes as originally were written. My personal question now is whether this point is showing that Weiss composed this piece -and many others, probably- with a simple bass rider baroque lute in mind, and not a theorboed one. What do you think about? Always giving thanks for your tolerance and kindness. -- Juan Fco. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com
[LUTE] Re: SWAN NECK vs. BASS RIDER
Hei Juan! Michel Cardin mentions several pieces in the London manuscript where courses 9, 10 and 11(!) are fretted. Tim Crawford has pointed that the sonata in f-minor S-C 21 might have been modified to suit the swan neck lute, since the London version contains deep E naturals in the allemande and sarabande which have been transposed up one octave in the Dresden version. mvh Are Vidar Boye Hansen, from Norway Dear lute friends: Excuse me in case I'm boring you with too much newcomer questions, probably over-answered in the past. Well, let's go to the matter. It's said all around that the ideal lute to play S.L. Weiss is the know as swan neck or theorboed model and, really, the most of the recordings published till now are related to lutenists performing on a swan neck baroque lute. I'm now studying the Prelude from the Suite in d minor (Dresden Manuscript, Volume 1, Suite n. 7, in the Jean-Daniel Forget public domain edition), one of the best Weiss preludes, for my taste, -extraordinarily well performed by Robert Barto (Sonatas vol. 3 track 14)- and I'm realising that Mr. Barto raises one octave up some basses that demand to be played e.g. on the first fret of the 10th course (Eb). I'm sure the reason is he's playing on a swan neck preventing him to play these notes as originally were written. My personal question now is whether this point is showing that Weiss composed this piece -and many others, probably- with a simple bass rider baroque lute in mind, and not a theorboed one. What do you think about? Always giving thanks for your tolerance and kindness. -- Juan Fco. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: SWAN NECK vs. BASS RIDER
Juan, I too love this piece and work at it constantly. I'm not certain whether the tab I have is the JD Forget version but I don't remember needing to stop the 10th crs. However, as a maker, I can tell you pretty certainly that, of the lutes used in baroque, probably only the so called French 11 crs instruments allow fingering that course. I daily play a 14 crs theorbo (76/140cm in dm tuning) which only has 7 courses on the fingerboard and a 13 crs after Dieffopruchar/Edlinger which has enough neck cant to the bass side to also preclude such fingering or at least make it rediculously difficult. Mr. Barto is probably just correcting the tab (I've learned to do all my transcriptions and original ms in pencil to allow for the inevitable corrections)in the interest of rational playability. Surely, an instrument could be built to accommodate that fingering, but it would be non-standard if there is such a thing. My suggestion is, modify the fingering and bass placement as needed to produce playability. Heretical as that may sound, it is the music that emanates which counts, not dogmatic adherence to an archaic tablature or style. One man's opinion. I could be wrong, Rob Dorsey, luthier Florence, KY USA -Original Message- From: Juan Fco. Prieto [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2006 6:33 AM To: lutelist Subject: [LUTE] SWAN NECK vs. BASS RIDER Dear lute friends: Excuse me in case I'm boring you with too much newcomer questions, probably over-answered in the past. Well, let's go to the matter. It's said all around that the ideal lute to play S.L. Weiss is the know as swan neck or theorboed model and, really, the most of the recordings published till now are related to lutenists performing on a swan neck baroque lute. I'm now studying the Prelude from the Suite in d minor (Dresden Manuscript, Volume 1, Suite n. 7, in the Jean-Daniel Forget public domain edition), one of the best Weiss preludes, for my taste, -extraordinarily well performed by Robert Barto (Sonatas vol. 3 track 14)- and I'm realising that Mr. Barto raises one octave up some basses that demand to be played e.g. on the first fret of the 10th course (Eb). I'm sure the reason is he's playing on a swan neck preventing him to play these notes as originally were written. My personal question now is whether this point is showing that Weiss composed this piece -and many others, probably- with a simple bass rider baroque lute in mind, and not a theorboed one. What do you think about? Always giving thanks for your tolerance and kindness. -- Juan Fco. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: SWAN NECK vs. BASS RIDER
Juan, One sort of correction. Many 13 crs instruments are merely augmentations of 11 crs instruments. Therefore, it's as easy to fret the 10 (or even 11th) crs on them as it is on the French 11crs. My point was that many builders did not seek that to be a requisite and even if the instrument allows such fretting, it's bloody difficult and not probably not good arrangement. Best, Rob Dorsey -Original Message- From: Rob Dorsey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2006 11:27 AM To: 'Juan Fco. Prieto'; 'lutelist' Subject: [LUTE] Re: SWAN NECK vs. BASS RIDER Juan, I too love this piece and work at it constantly. I'm not certain whether the tab I have is the JD Forget version but I don't remember needing to stop the 10th crs. However, as a maker, I can tell you pretty certainly that, of the lutes used in baroque, probably only the so called French 11 crs instruments allow fingering that course. I daily play a 14 crs theorbo (76/140cm in dm tuning) which only has 7 courses on the fingerboard and a 13 crs after Dieffopruchar/Edlinger which has enough neck cant to the bass side to also preclude such fingering or at least make it rediculously difficult. Mr. Barto is probably just correcting the tab (I've learned to do all my transcriptions and original ms in pencil to allow for the inevitable corrections)in the interest of rational playability. Surely, an instrument could be built to accommodate that fingering, but it would be non-standard if there is such a thing. My suggestion is, modify the fingering and bass placement as needed to produce playability. Heretical as that may sound, it is the music that emanates which counts, not dogmatic adherence to an archaic tablature or style. One man's opinion. I could be wrong, Rob Dorsey, luthier Florence, KY USA -Original Message- From: Juan Fco. Prieto [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2006 6:33 AM To: lutelist Subject: [LUTE] SWAN NECK vs. BASS RIDER Dear lute friends: Excuse me in case I'm boring you with too much newcomer questions, probably over-answered in the past. Well, let's go to the matter. It's said all around that the ideal lute to play S.L. Weiss is the know as swan neck or theorboed model and, really, the most of the recordings published till now are related to lutenists performing on a swan neck baroque lute. I'm now studying the Prelude from the Suite in d minor (Dresden Manuscript, Volume 1, Suite n. 7, in the Jean-Daniel Forget public domain edition), one of the best Weiss preludes, for my taste, -extraordinarily well performed by Robert Barto (Sonatas vol. 3 track 14)- and I'm realising that Mr. Barto raises one octave up some basses that demand to be played e.g. on the first fret of the 10th course (Eb). I'm sure the reason is he's playing on a swan neck preventing him to play these notes as originally were written. My personal question now is whether this point is showing that Weiss composed this piece -and many others, probably- with a simple bass rider baroque lute in mind, and not a theorboed one. What do you think about? Always giving thanks for your tolerance and kindness. -- Juan Fco. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: swan neck vs. bass rider
Hi, Markus, thank you for looking up swan neck. I would not be surprised if someone came up with the discovery that the name was invented during 20th century for the sake of convenience, like stile brisee was named in the beginning of that century (but not in 17th). And how do you interpret the sentence he can be called the Father of the lute? I can only understand it in the way that he was of highest importance that the lute became what she became then. She never says he was the first, but in my eyes her statements come quite near to this. He changed the lute from 11 to 13 courses and he theorbified it - what else should this mean, that he was responsible for this changes. If she is right, that is another problem, and everyone is free to doubt that. But I think her words are very clear. I take her statement the way I take St Paul's statement that Abe became the Father of the faithful and the circumcised (Romans 4:12). Or, in terms of linguistics, like SHussein's announcement of a Mother of all wars. (It is a Hebraism or, if you will, a biblicism.) Luise Gottsched can clearly be considered a predecessor of those many enthusing admirers and fans of Weiss' music and, inferentially, person, in our days. article of Eszter Fontana, where she writes of the theorbo case (Mathias you can read it on p.60!) for the interested public: Eszter Fontana, Raetselraten ueber einen Theorbenkastenkasten in Leipzig, Die Laute IV/2000, p. 48-63. It is a brilliant article, ideed, ought to be translated into English. Perhaps that is on the way already (is it?). On p. 59, Fontana cites from Gottsched's article on Weiss: Er hat sie nicht nur von elf Choeren auf dreizehn gesetzet, sondern da er auch ihren Hals gerade gemachet, oder theorbiret, sie in den Stand gesetzet, dass sie nunmehr in den groessten Concerten mit spielen kann. (He not only put the number of courses from 11 to 13, but also, by straightening its neck, or theorbifying, made it possible that the lute can be used even in very large orchestras.) no mentioning of swan neck or straight neck. (In this case, I take straightening its neck as opposed to bent lute necks.) Ex negativo, I derive it that LGottsched would have mentioned the swan neck if it had mattered to her. After that, Fontana quotes Marpurg, speaking of Baron's 1737 visit in Dresden in order to acquire a theorbo nach seinem Geschmacke (according to his taste), and says: Wir glauben, dass es sich um ein Instrument mit geradem Theobenkragen handelte (I believe that that was an instrument with a straight theorbo neck.) There you are. No further comment on that. Also, Uffenbach's letter, which Fontana quotes from, does not mention a particular form of theorbification like a swan neck. Theorbify the way Mr Weiss has it done, to me, simply means that Weiss had his lutes theorbified, no matter if swan neck or straight, as opposed to standard 11c bent neck lutes. Weiss himself and Gottsched name the intention: in order to play in an orchestra (even a large one). In another letter Weiss says that he played in an opera and during that very performance successfully accompanied a solo singer with his theorbified lute. That's why his theorbified axe was superior to proper theorboes or archlutes: He didn't have to change the instrument between tutti and recitativo. And even if he was not the inventor of it, his name was very closely connected to it as the letter of Mr. Hoffmann shows, who should know it! closely connected, yes, indeed. In her last note of that abovementioned article, Fontana says that one may consider the 17th century theorbo, in the shape already to be seen with Mersenne, a predecessor of straight necked lutes, and that 1704 angelique by Joachim Tielke a predecessor of curved swan neck lutes. Just two possible ways of theorbification, which was far from being new in 1717. What may have been new in Germany, however, was that it was done to a former lute, which thus became what in Italy, country of Weiss' crucial musical experiences, would since 1594 (!) be called an arciliuto. (Cf. R. Spencer, Chitarrone, Theorbo and Archlute, chapter on Liuto attiorbato + note 45.) To put it short, I think Weiss brought his theorbified lute from Italy, where it was common, together with his improved (italianized) playing and composing technique. On the grounds of evidence, I'm afraid, we will not know for sure whether the change or invention brought up by Weiss in 1717-9 was a swan neck. Swan neck was/is just one possible variant of theorbification. What's for certain, however, is that swan necked lutes strike the eye, and probably more pleasantly so than a straight necked theorbified lute. And I suppose _that_ is the true reason why it is the instrument of choice for many a player today. -- Best wishes, Mathias Mathias Roesel, Grosze Annenstrasze 5, 28199 Bremen, Deutschland/ Germany, Tel +49 - 421 - 165 49 97, Fax +49 1805 060
Re: swan neck vs. bass rider
Markus Lutz [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: how do you interpret the sentence he can be called the Father of the lute? He changed the lute from 11 to 13 courses and he theorbified it - what else should this mean, that he was responsible for this changes. I take her statement the way I take St Paul's statement that Abe became the Father of the faithful To take a word figuratively doesn´t prevent you from thinking of its sense. okay, then let me put it this way: It's a vast exaggeration. Luise was an ardent fan of Leopold's, that's it. In fact, she describes what he came up with his lute from a perspective of a disciple who has always followed her master. And makes it up. I mean, let's get serious, who would have called Weiss Father of the Lute in a literal sense? Or look at those many different types of lutes (theorbified or not) current in those days (see Lundberg on this) - what could it mean, that he changed the number of courses or theorbified his lute?! That had been done by others an uncounted number of times before. no mentioning of swan neck or straight neck. (In this case, I take straightening its neck as opposed to bent lute necks.) Ex negativo, I derive it that LGottsched would have mentioned the swan neck if it had mattered to her. I don´t understand that. Evidently most of the lutes of that time had been rebuild as theorbified lutes in the way of a swan neck (Gottsched can´t know the word swan neck lute). nope. See the graphs in Lundberg's Erlangen Lute Building Courses, or his History of Lute Building. Swan neck is only _one_ possible shape among others. Why not ask for construction plans? sorry? Plans of an instrument assumedly used on a special occasion that is mentioned in a letter? Are you kidding? As Michael and I have discussed, probably the instrument Weiss speaks of is a theorbo and no lute. The theorbifying of his lute might have been later. sorry, Weiss calls it a lute in his letter to Mattheson (21st March 1723), where he describes the occasion (quoted in: Joural of the LSA XXXI/1998, p. 25). From that very letter it is usually taken that Weiss had a large theorbified _lute_ at that time. Who was saying that in 1717/19 he made a swan neck lute? In 1717/19 Weiss was changing the baroque lute from 11 to 13 course. That was the first thing Gottsched spoke of. No. That was what Tim Crawford claimed in writing that Weiss' first piece to require a 13th course is from 1719. DASmith has so far established that hypothesis by saying that there is no piece using a 13th course by another composer before that time. However, LGottsched has no dating as for the increase of courses. I do very much look forward to the issuing of the forthcoming Journal of the LSA where our topic will be dealt with in detail. -- Best wishes, Mathias Mathias Roesel, Grosze Annenstrasze 5, 28199 Bremen, Deutschland/ Germany, Tel +49 - 421 - 165 49 97, Fax +49 1805 060 334 480 67, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: swan neck vs. bass rider
[EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: I'm not sure if swan neck lute is the best name for this lute, because it is, as far as I know (but maybe someone knows more) no historical name. does anybody know who brought up that name? Luise Gottsched refers to it as theorbierte Laute (theorbofied lute), what shows very good that this lute has some loans of the theorbo (longer bass strings, maybe bigger body), but still is a baroque lute. yes, and how do you know she had in mind what we have been accustomed to calling a swan neck lute? There are a lot of other and more or less different types of theorboed lutes from that times extant in museums. The only evidence that Weiss actually played a so-called swan neck lute is a) that there are lutes of that kind surviving made by father + son Hoffmann who were closely acquainted with Weiss, and b) that from another source it is known that Weiss appreciated their lutes. But how do you know Hoffmanns made a _swan_ _neck_ according to Weiss's ideas? I still cannot put aside that picture of a lutenist at Dresden court in 1718, playing what today most people would call an arciliuto (very long extended, straight neck). BTW, in 1756 Filippo dalla Casa called the swan neck type an arciliuto francese (picture available in S.P.E.S. reprint), which might point towards the angelique as a model. As you know in her article she claims that Weiss has changed the lute from 11 to 13 course and also theorbofied it. yes, but she truthfully does not claim he was the first to do that. -- Best wishes, Mathias Mathias Roesel, Grosze Annenstrasze 5, 28199 Bremen, Deutschland/ Germany, Tel +49 - 421 - 165 49 97, Fax +49 1805 060 334 480 67, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
