Re: About using git as file format for lyx ...

[Tommaso Cucinotta]

On 09/03/14 02:55, Pavel Sanda wrote:
 Tommaso Cucinotta wrote:
 luckily, we're filling up these weird .lyx files contents using that
 
 Believe it or not there are people who are using scripts for batch creation of
 lyx files for automatized reports and using sed for processing stuff inside 
 it.

I do believe it -- I can still remember when I sent a .lyx paper draft to a PhD
student, and he applied his changes with a plain-text editor, 
learning-by-example
the .lyx syntax, and later he asked me why don't we use for example latex?, 
and
when I showed him there was LyX to edit those .lyx files, his jaw dropped :-)...

Frankly speaking, if the current format works well, is unambiguous, supports 
well
various char encodings and languages, is parsed ok by external tools for example
for format upgrade and stuff, then let's just keep it as it is. To me, an XML
import/export would only make sense in view of .odt or .docx interoperability.

T.

Re: About using git as file format for lyx ...

[Pavel Sanda]

Tommaso Cucinotta wrote:
 student, and he applied his changes with a plain-text editor, 
 learning-by-example
 the .lyx syntax, and later he asked me why don't we use for example latex?, 
 and

You made my day :D 

Re: About using git as file format for lyx ...

[Tommaso Cucinotta]

On 09/03/14 02:55, Pavel Sanda wrote:
> Tommaso Cucinotta wrote:
>> luckily, we're filling up these weird .lyx files contents using that
> 
> Believe it or not there are people who are using scripts for batch creation of
> lyx files for automatized reports and using sed for processing stuff inside 
> it.

I do believe it -- I can still remember when I sent a .lyx paper draft to a PhD
student, and he applied his changes with a plain-text editor, 
learning-by-example
the .lyx syntax, and later he asked me "why don't we use for example latex?", 
and
when I showed him there was LyX to edit those .lyx files, his jaw dropped :-)...

Frankly speaking, if the current format works well, is unambiguous, supports 
well
various char encodings and languages, is parsed ok by external tools for example
for format upgrade and stuff, then let's just keep it as it is. To me, an XML
import/export would only make sense in view of .odt or .docx interoperability.

T.

Re: About using git as file format for lyx ...

[Pavel Sanda]

Tommaso Cucinotta wrote:
> student, and he applied his changes with a plain-text editor, 
> learning-by-example
> the .lyx syntax, and later he asked me "why don't we use for example latex?", 
> and

You made my day :D 

Re: About using git as file format for lyx ...

[Abdelrazak Younes]

On 07/03/2014 03:09, Tommaso Cucinotta wrote:

... instead of XML, as discussed so often ...

   https://plus.google.com/+LinusTorvalds/posts/X2XVf9Q7MfV


Bad idea for a document, LyX is used to create structured document, not 
database, we are not going to create a new directory for each new 
inset... But I agree that XML is really not good for humans, we should 
switch to Json, not XML.


Abdel.

Re: About using git as file format for lyx ...

[Liviu Andronic]

On Sat, Mar 8, 2014 at 8:54 AM, Abdelrazak Younes you...@lyx.org wrote:
 On 07/03/2014 03:09, Tommaso Cucinotta wrote:

 ... instead of XML, as discussed so often ...

https://plus.google.com/+LinusTorvalds/posts/X2XVf9Q7MfV


 Bad idea for a document, LyX is used to create structured document, not
 database, we are not going to create a new directory for each new inset...
 But I agree that XML is really not good for humans, we should switch to
 Json, not XML.

See related:
JSON vs XML: How JSON Is Superior To XML
https://www.udemy.com/blog/json-vs-xml/


Liviu

 Abdel.







-- 
Do you know how to read?
http://www.alienetworks.com/srtest.cfm
http://goodies.xfce.org/projects/applications/xfce4-dict#speed-reader
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Re: About using git as file format for lyx ...

[Liviu Andronic]

On Sat, Mar 8, 2014 at 10:51 AM, Liviu Andronic landronim...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Sat, Mar 8, 2014 at 8:54 AM, Abdelrazak Younes you...@lyx.org wrote:
 On 07/03/2014 03:09, Tommaso Cucinotta wrote:

 ... instead of XML, as discussed so often ...

https://plus.google.com/+LinusTorvalds/posts/X2XVf9Q7MfV


 Bad idea for a document, LyX is used to create structured document, not
 database, we are not going to create a new directory for each new inset...
 But I agree that XML is really not good for humans, we should switch to
 Json, not XML.

 See related:
 JSON vs XML: How JSON Is Superior To XML
 https://www.udemy.com/blog/json-vs-xml/

For those dreaming of XML, the advantage of JSON would be that there
are readily available routes of conversion to and from XML (using
Python):
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/8988775/convert-json-to-xml-in-python
https://github.com/quandyfactory/dicttoxml
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/191536/converting-xml-to-json-using-python
https://github.com/martinblech/xmltodict


Liviu



 Liviu

 Abdel.







 --
 Do you know how to read?
 http://www.alienetworks.com/srtest.cfm
 http://goodies.xfce.org/projects/applications/xfce4-dict#speed-reader
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 http://garbl.home.comcast.net/~garbl/stylemanual/e.htm#e-mail



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Re: About using git as file format for lyx ...

[Richard Heck]

On 03/08/2014 10:31 AM, Liviu Andronic wrote:

On Sat, Mar 8, 2014 at 10:51 AM, Liviu Andronic landronim...@gmail.com wrote:

On Sat, Mar 8, 2014 at 8:54 AM, Abdelrazak Younes you...@lyx.org wrote:

On 07/03/2014 03:09, Tommaso Cucinotta wrote:

... instead of XML, as discussed so often ...

https://plus.google.com/+LinusTorvalds/posts/X2XVf9Q7MfV


Bad idea for a document, LyX is used to create structured document, not 
database, we are not going to create a new directory for each new inset...
But I agree that XML is really not good for humans, we should switch to Json, 
not XML.


See related:
JSON vs XML: How JSON Is Superior To XML
https://www.udemy.com/blog/json-vs-xml/


For those dreaming of XML, the advantage of JSON would be that there
are readily available routes of conversion to and from XML (using
Python):
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/8988775/convert-json-to-xml-in-python
https://github.com/quandyfactory/dicttoxml
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/191536/converting-xml-to-json-using-python
https://github.com/martinblech/xmltodict


Of course, that also means there are readily available routes of 
conversion to and from JSON, if we were using XML.


For what it's worth, I find JSON completely unreadable.

Richard

Re: About using git as file format for lyx ...

[Abdelrazak Younes]

On 08/03/2014 17:20, Richard Heck wrote:

On 03/08/2014 10:31 AM, Liviu Andronic wrote:
On Sat, Mar 8, 2014 at 10:51 AM, Liviu Andronic 
landronim...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sat, Mar 8, 2014 at 8:54 AM, Abdelrazak Younes you...@lyx.org 
wrote:

On 07/03/2014 03:09, Tommaso Cucinotta wrote:

... instead of XML, as discussed so often ...

https://plus.google.com/+LinusTorvalds/posts/X2XVf9Q7MfV


Bad idea for a document, LyX is used to create structured document, 
not database, we are not going to create a new directory for each 
new inset...
But I agree that XML is really not good for humans, we should 
switch to Json, not XML.



See related:
JSON vs XML: How JSON Is Superior To XML
https://www.udemy.com/blog/json-vs-xml/


For those dreaming of XML, the advantage of JSON would be that there
are readily available routes of conversion to and from XML (using
Python):
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/8988775/convert-json-to-xml-in-python
https://github.com/quandyfactory/dicttoxml
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/191536/converting-xml-to-json-using-python 


https://github.com/martinblech/xmltodict


Of course, that also means there are readily available routes of 
conversion to and from JSON, if we were using XML.


For what it's worth, I find JSON completely unreadable.


Weird :-)

Anyway, moving to XML (or Json) will be a already an excellent move; and 
the one that does the work is the one that decide! I reckon that it 
would be much easier at this point to switch to XML thanks to your hard 
work on the XHTML export. So I will support your decision in any case ;-)


That being said, I *personally* find XML much too verbose and error 
prone compared to Json if you write it with a plain text editor. Json is 
also much more compact, has nice notion of arrays and numerical values, 
etc. Also an efficient binary representation of Json is really easy to 
do and would be very valuable to optimize parsing if needed. We could 
probably also reuse the one proposed by Qt if we modify it a bit (ucs4 
versus utf16).
Last by not least, if we were to switch to Json, I would also move all 
the layout and config files to Json; but hey, there's close to zero 
chance that I find the time to do it so talk is cheap ;-)


Cheers,
Abdel.

Re: About using git as file format for lyx ...

[Tommaso Cucinotta]

On 08/03/14 19:44, Abdelrazak Younes wrote:
 That being said, I *personally* find XML much too verbose and error
 prone compared to Json if you write it with a plain text editor.

luckily, we're filling up these weird .lyx files contents using that
convenient editor, what's its name?, was it ... LyX :-D?

And, after all, in terms of compactness, there's also that other quite
popular format..., should be called  ehm  was it ... LaTeX :-D?

AFAICS, JSON seems convenient when there's JavaScript processing
of these segments somewhere, but it's probably gaining ground outside
of web programming as well?

My2c,

T.

Re: About using git as file format for lyx ...

[Pavel Sanda]

Tommaso Cucinotta wrote:
 luckily, we're filling up these weird .lyx files contents using that

Believe it or not there are people who are using scripts for batch creation of
lyx files for automatized reports and using sed for processing stuff inside it.
But sure, one can move to plain latex.

Pavel

Re: About using git as file format for lyx ...

[Abdelrazak Younes]

On 07/03/2014 03:09, Tommaso Cucinotta wrote:

... instead of XML, as discussed so often ...

   https://plus.google.com/+LinusTorvalds/posts/X2XVf9Q7MfV


Bad idea for a document, LyX is used to create structured document, not 
database, we are not going to create a new directory for each new 
inset... But I agree that XML is really not good for humans, we should 
switch to Json, not XML.


Abdel.

Re: About using git as file format for lyx ...

[Liviu Andronic]

On Sat, Mar 8, 2014 at 8:54 AM, Abdelrazak Younes  wrote:
> On 07/03/2014 03:09, Tommaso Cucinotta wrote:
>>
>> ... instead of XML, as discussed so often ...
>>
>>https://plus.google.com/+LinusTorvalds/posts/X2XVf9Q7MfV
>
>
> Bad idea for a document, LyX is used to create structured document, not
> database, we are not going to create a new directory for each new inset...
> But I agree that XML is really not good for humans, we should switch to
> Json, not XML.
>
See related:
"JSON vs XML: How JSON Is Superior To XML"
https://www.udemy.com/blog/json-vs-xml/


Liviu

> Abdel.
>
>
>
>



-- 
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Do you know how to write?
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Re: About using git as file format for lyx ...

[Liviu Andronic]

On Sat, Mar 8, 2014 at 10:51 AM, Liviu Andronic  wrote:
> On Sat, Mar 8, 2014 at 8:54 AM, Abdelrazak Younes  wrote:
>> On 07/03/2014 03:09, Tommaso Cucinotta wrote:
>>>
>>> ... instead of XML, as discussed so often ...
>>>
>>>https://plus.google.com/+LinusTorvalds/posts/X2XVf9Q7MfV
>>
>>
>> Bad idea for a document, LyX is used to create structured document, not
>> database, we are not going to create a new directory for each new inset...
>> But I agree that XML is really not good for humans, we should switch to
>> Json, not XML.
>>
> See related:
> "JSON vs XML: How JSON Is Superior To XML"
> https://www.udemy.com/blog/json-vs-xml/
>
For those dreaming of XML, the advantage of JSON would be that there
are readily available routes of conversion to and from XML (using
Python):
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/8988775/convert-json-to-xml-in-python
https://github.com/quandyfactory/dicttoxml
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/191536/converting-xml-to-json-using-python
https://github.com/martinblech/xmltodict


Liviu


>
> Liviu
>
>> Abdel.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Do you know how to read?
> http://www.alienetworks.com/srtest.cfm
> http://goodies.xfce.org/projects/applications/xfce4-dict#speed-reader
> Do you know how to write?
> http://garbl.home.comcast.net/~garbl/stylemanual/e.htm#e-mail



-- 
Do you know how to read?
http://www.alienetworks.com/srtest.cfm
http://goodies.xfce.org/projects/applications/xfce4-dict#speed-reader
Do you know how to write?
http://garbl.home.comcast.net/~garbl/stylemanual/e.htm#e-mail

Re: About using git as file format for lyx ...

[Richard Heck]

On 03/08/2014 10:31 AM, Liviu Andronic wrote:

On Sat, Mar 8, 2014 at 10:51 AM, Liviu Andronic  wrote:

On Sat, Mar 8, 2014 at 8:54 AM, Abdelrazak Younes  wrote:

On 07/03/2014 03:09, Tommaso Cucinotta wrote:

... instead of XML, as discussed so often ...

https://plus.google.com/+LinusTorvalds/posts/X2XVf9Q7MfV


Bad idea for a document, LyX is used to create structured document, not 
database, we are not going to create a new directory for each new inset...
But I agree that XML is really not good for humans, we should switch to Json, 
not XML.


See related:
"JSON vs XML: How JSON Is Superior To XML"
https://www.udemy.com/blog/json-vs-xml/


For those dreaming of XML, the advantage of JSON would be that there
are readily available routes of conversion to and from XML (using
Python):
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/8988775/convert-json-to-xml-in-python
https://github.com/quandyfactory/dicttoxml
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/191536/converting-xml-to-json-using-python
https://github.com/martinblech/xmltodict


Of course, that also means there are readily available routes of 
conversion to and from JSON, if we were using XML.


For what it's worth, I find JSON completely unreadable.

Richard

Re: About using git as file format for lyx ...

[Abdelrazak Younes]

On 08/03/2014 17:20, Richard Heck wrote:

On 03/08/2014 10:31 AM, Liviu Andronic wrote:
On Sat, Mar 8, 2014 at 10:51 AM, Liviu Andronic 
 wrote:
On Sat, Mar 8, 2014 at 8:54 AM, Abdelrazak Younes  
wrote:

On 07/03/2014 03:09, Tommaso Cucinotta wrote:

... instead of XML, as discussed so often ...

https://plus.google.com/+LinusTorvalds/posts/X2XVf9Q7MfV


Bad idea for a document, LyX is used to create structured document, 
not database, we are not going to create a new directory for each 
new inset...
But I agree that XML is really not good for humans, we should 
switch to Json, not XML.



See related:
"JSON vs XML: How JSON Is Superior To XML"
https://www.udemy.com/blog/json-vs-xml/


For those dreaming of XML, the advantage of JSON would be that there
are readily available routes of conversion to and from XML (using
Python):
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/8988775/convert-json-to-xml-in-python
https://github.com/quandyfactory/dicttoxml
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/191536/converting-xml-to-json-using-python 


https://github.com/martinblech/xmltodict


Of course, that also means there are readily available routes of 
conversion to and from JSON, if we were using XML.


For what it's worth, I find JSON completely unreadable.


Weird :-)

Anyway, moving to XML (or Json) will be a already an excellent move; and 
the one that does the work is the one that decide! I reckon that it 
would be much easier at this point to switch to XML thanks to your hard 
work on the XHTML export. So I will support your decision in any case ;-)


That being said, I *personally* find XML much too verbose and error 
prone compared to Json if you write it with a plain text editor. Json is 
also much more compact, has nice notion of arrays and numerical values, 
etc. Also an efficient binary representation of Json is really easy to 
do and would be very valuable to optimize parsing if needed. We could 
probably also reuse the one proposed by Qt if we modify it a bit (ucs4 
versus utf16).
Last by not least, if we were to switch to Json, I would also move all 
the layout and config files to Json; but hey, there's close to zero 
chance that I find the time to do it so talk is cheap ;-)


Cheers,
Abdel.

Re: About using git as file format for lyx ...

[Tommaso Cucinotta]

On 08/03/14 19:44, Abdelrazak Younes wrote:
> That being said, I *personally* find XML much too verbose and error
> prone compared to Json if you write it with a plain text editor.

luckily, we're filling up these weird .lyx files contents using that
convenient editor, what's its name?, was it ... LyX :-D?

And, after all, in terms of compactness, there's also that other quite
popular format..., should be called  ehm  was it ... LaTeX :-D?

AFAICS, JSON seems convenient when there's JavaScript processing
of these segments somewhere, but it's probably gaining ground outside
of web programming as well?

My2c,

T.

Re: About using git as file format for lyx ...

[Pavel Sanda]

Tommaso Cucinotta wrote:
> luckily, we're filling up these weird .lyx files contents using that

Believe it or not there are people who are using scripts for batch creation of
lyx files for automatized reports and using sed for processing stuff inside it.
But sure, one can move to plain latex.

Pavel

Re: About using git as file format for lyx ...

[Pavel Sanda]

Liviu Andronic wrote:
 On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 3:09 AM, Tommaso Cucinotta tomm...@lyx.org wrote:
  ... instead of XML, as discussed so often ...
 
https://plus.google.com/+LinusTorvalds/posts/X2XVf9Q7MfV
 
 He makes a strong case for GIT, and against XML. Especially taking
 into account human readability of the source file.

If human readability is the goal we should stay with the current format
in the first place ;)
Pavel

Re: About using git as file format for lyx ...

[Guenter Milde]

On 2014-03-07, Pavel Sanda wrote:
 Liviu Andronic wrote:
 On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 3:09 AM, Tommaso Cucinotta tomm...@lyx.org wrote:
  ... instead of XML, as discussed so often ...
 
https://plus.google.com/+LinusTorvalds/posts/X2XVf9Q7MfV
 
 He makes a strong case for GIT, and against XML. Especially taking
 into account human readability of the source file.

However, reading the post and comments I saw just bold statements but no
evidence for backing this up.

 If human readability is the goal we should stay with the current format
 in the first place ;)

Not really. All the extra lines for inline constructs make it
considerabely more difficult to read as e.g. LaTeX (and in this regard
even more difficult to read than XML).

Günter

Re: About using git as file format for lyx ...

[Pavel Sanda]

Guenter Milde wrote:
  If human readability is the goal we should stay with the current format
  in the first place ;)
 
 Not really. All the extra lines for inline constructs make it
 considerabely more difficult to read as e.g. LaTeX (and in this regard
 even more difficult to read than XML).

Then we must have differrent eyes. Reading and hacking XML code is
worse for me than reading the current format.

Pavel

Re: About using git as file format for lyx ...

[Pavel Sanda]

Liviu Andronic wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 3:09 AM, Tommaso Cucinotta  wrote:
> > ... instead of XML, as discussed so often ...
> >
> >   https://plus.google.com/+LinusTorvalds/posts/X2XVf9Q7MfV
> >
> He makes a strong case for GIT, and against XML. Especially taking
> into account human readability of the source file.

If human readability is the goal we should stay with the current format
in the first place ;)
Pavel

Re: About using git as file format for lyx ...

[Guenter Milde]

On 2014-03-07, Pavel Sanda wrote:
> Liviu Andronic wrote:
>> On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 3:09 AM, Tommaso Cucinotta  wrote:
>> > ... instead of XML, as discussed so often ...
>> >
>> >   https://plus.google.com/+LinusTorvalds/posts/X2XVf9Q7MfV
>> >
>> He makes a strong case for GIT, and against XML. Especially taking
>> into account human readability of the source file.

However, reading the post and comments I saw just bold statements but no
evidence for backing this up.

> If human readability is the goal we should stay with the current format
> in the first place ;)

Not really. All the extra lines for inline constructs make it
considerabely more difficult to read as e.g. LaTeX (and in this regard
even more difficult to read than XML).

Günter

Re: About using git as file format for lyx ...

[Pavel Sanda]

Guenter Milde wrote:
> > If human readability is the goal we should stay with the current format
> > in the first place ;)
> 
> Not really. All the extra lines for inline constructs make it
> considerabely more difficult to read as e.g. LaTeX (and in this regard
> even more difficult to read than XML).

Then we must have differrent eyes. Reading and hacking XML code is
worse for me than reading the current format.

Pavel

About using git as file format for lyx ...

[Tommaso Cucinotta]

... instead of XML, as discussed so often ...

  https://plus.google.com/+LinusTorvalds/posts/X2XVf9Q7MfV

T.

Re: About using git as file format for lyx ...

[stefano franchi]

On Mar 6, 2014 8:09 PM, Tommaso Cucinotta tomm...@lyx.org wrote:

 ... instead of XML, as discussed so often ...

   https://plus.google.com/+LinusTorvalds/posts/X2XVf9Q7MfV

 T.

GSOC 2015?

S.

Re: About using git as file format for lyx ...

[Liviu Andronic]

On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 3:09 AM, Tommaso Cucinotta tomm...@lyx.org wrote:
 ... instead of XML, as discussed so often ...

   https://plus.google.com/+LinusTorvalds/posts/X2XVf9Q7MfV

He makes a strong case for GIT, and against XML. Especially taking
into account human readability of the source file.

Liviu


 T.



-- 
Do you know how to read?
http://www.alienetworks.com/srtest.cfm
http://goodies.xfce.org/projects/applications/xfce4-dict#speed-reader
Do you know how to write?
http://garbl.home.comcast.net/~garbl/stylemanual/e.htm#e-mail

About using git as file format for lyx ...

[Tommaso Cucinotta]

... instead of XML, as discussed so often ...

  https://plus.google.com/+LinusTorvalds/posts/X2XVf9Q7MfV

T.

Re: About using git as file format for lyx ...

[stefano franchi]

On Mar 6, 2014 8:09 PM, "Tommaso Cucinotta"  wrote:
>
> ... instead of XML, as discussed so often ...
>
>   https://plus.google.com/+LinusTorvalds/posts/X2XVf9Q7MfV
>
> T.

GSOC 2015?

S.

Re: About using git as file format for lyx ...

[Liviu Andronic]

On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 3:09 AM, Tommaso Cucinotta  wrote:
> ... instead of XML, as discussed so often ...
>
>   https://plus.google.com/+LinusTorvalds/posts/X2XVf9Q7MfV
>
He makes a strong case for GIT, and against XML. Especially taking
into account human readability of the source file.

Liviu


> T.



-- 
Do you know how to read?
http://www.alienetworks.com/srtest.cfm
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