Re: Bibliography handling by LyX
Dear Richard Sorry for the weekend delay, comments below. Saludos ~-o--{}--o-~ Alex Vergara Gil MSc. Física Nuclear Laboratorio Secundario de Calibración Dosimétrica Centro de Protección e Higiene de las Radiaciones Calle No. 4113 e/ 41 y 47 Playa, C de la Habana C.P.11300 La Habana, Cuba Dirección postal A.P.6195 C.P.10600 Telf: (537)6829681, (537)6821803 Fax: (537)2030165 El 22/03/2012 04:38 p.m., Richard Heck escribió: On 03/22/2012 06:51 PM, Alex Vergara Gil wrote: El 22/03/2012 02:50 p.m., Richard Heck escribió: On 03/22/2012 04:02 PM, Alex Vergara Gil wrote: El 22/03/2012 12:36 p.m., David L. Johnson escribió: On 03/22/2012 02:08 PM, Alex Vergara Gil wrote: I have an objection to the use of bibitems in LyX: If you use BibTeX you can choose the bibliographic standard such as Vancouver, etc, besides the BibTeX sorts bibliography items in the required order acordingly to the standard; with LyX's bibitems you simply cannot do this and is like turning back to MS Office. Is this a bug? No, it's not a bug. Perhaps it's old-fashioned, but I've never seen the need to bother with bibtex. Most of my papers have maybe 5-10 references, that is certainly easy enough to do "by hand". When I wrote my MSc thesis I must handled with 80 citations in a 100 page piece of work, imagine sort them one by one and changing from order of apearance to alphabetical just to adjust your work to the requirements of the institute!!! It is indeed old fashioned, you must tell the software what kind of bibliography you need and it must automatically reshape and sort it. BibTeX does this work, why LyX can't? Sorry, I don't understand. Of course you can use BibTeX with LyX. Or you can just use bibitems. It's up to you. If you use bibitems, though, then you have to sort them. Why? Because Off course I can use BibTeX with LyX, but to generalize the use of it as a redaction system editors will prefer, it is better to have all the main things in a solely archive, not figures off course, but the bibliography... Hopefully for 2.1, we are going to have a "LyX bundle" that will solve all such problems, including figures, to *make it easy to exchange data with others*. Right now, we have the ability to export a LyX archive that will bundle all these things, too. This is the main purpose of this discusion As initial step I would like to recommend developers to include an option to export bibitems to BibTeX, and a final option should be the use of BibTeX to produce the bibliography from bibitems. This is not too hard to do since most of the work is already done! To do this, you'd have to be able to figure out who the author is, what the title is, etc, etc, etc. It is not going to be possible to figure that out in any reliable way. By using the same algoritms that are already used for the modernCV example (separators }{) If this means writing everything as ERT, it doesn't look good. I can imagine making LyX's internal storage of bibitems look more like BibTeX, then creating a BibTeX file on the fly for compilation, etc. There's already a bug about this, partly, to make bibitems easier to use with natbib. But it doesn't make much sense to me to go much farther. BibTeX isn't that hard to use, and one can exchange files using LyX's existing archive format, or just exchange two files. It isn't that hard. Richard No, you missunderstand me, in the modernCV example you must just use ERT for the }{ separator, the rest is normal text, internally you should make the assumption that for example the first segment is ID, the second are authors, and so on. For a more general bibliography then you should create new bibliography kinds (like the modernCV list, language, computer, etc) such as book, article, etc with different representations. Now about BibTeX, I am 100% with you, it is not hard at all, but try to tell this to editors. Unless we convince editors to accept more than one file we are doomed to export our work to LaTeX, which is not the objective of LyX at all.
Re: Bibliography handling by LyX
On 03/22/2012 06:51 PM, Alex Vergara Gil wrote: El 22/03/2012 02:50 p.m., Richard Heck escribió: On 03/22/2012 04:02 PM, Alex Vergara Gil wrote: El 22/03/2012 12:36 p.m., David L. Johnson escribió: On 03/22/2012 02:08 PM, Alex Vergara Gil wrote: I have an objection to the use of bibitems in LyX: If you use BibTeX you can choose the bibliographic standard such as Vancouver, etc, besides the BibTeX sorts bibliography items in the required order acordingly to the standard; with LyX's bibitems you simply cannot do this and is like turning back to MS Office. Is this a bug? No, it's not a bug. Perhaps it's old-fashioned, but I've never seen the need to bother with bibtex. Most of my papers have maybe 5-10 references, that is certainly easy enough to do "by hand". When I wrote my MSc thesis I must handled with 80 citations in a 100 page piece of work, imagine sort them one by one and changing from order of apearance to alphabetical just to adjust your work to the requirements of the institute!!! It is indeed old fashioned, you must tell the software what kind of bibliography you need and it must automatically reshape and sort it. BibTeX does this work, why LyX can't? Sorry, I don't understand. Of course you can use BibTeX with LyX. Or you can just use bibitems. It's up to you. If you use bibitems, though, then you have to sort them. Why? Because Off course I can use BibTeX with LyX, but to generalize the use of it as a redaction system editors will prefer, it is better to have all the main things in a solely archive, not figures off course, but the bibliography... Hopefully for 2.1, we are going to have a "LyX bundle" that will solve all such problems, including figures, to make it easy to exchange data with others. Right now, we have the ability to export a LyX archive that will bundle all these things, too. As initial step I would like to recommend developers to include an option to export bibitems to BibTeX, and a final option should be the use of BibTeX to produce the bibliography from bibitems. This is not too hard to do since most of the work is already done! To do this, you'd have to be able to figure out who the author is, what the title is, etc, etc, etc. It is not going to be possible to figure that out in any reliable way. By using the same algoritms that are already used for the modernCV example (separators }{) If this means writing everything as ERT, it doesn't look good. I can imagine making LyX's internal storage of bibitems look more like BibTeX, then creating a BibTeX file on the fly for compilation, etc. There's already a bug about this, partly, to make bibitems easier to use with natbib. But it doesn't make much sense to me to go much farther. BibTeX isn't that hard to use, and one can exchange files using LyX's existing archive format, or just exchange two files. It isn't that hard. Richard
Re: Bibliography handling by LyX
El 22/03/2012 02:50 p.m., Richard Heck escribió: On 03/22/2012 04:02 PM, Alex Vergara Gil wrote: El 22/03/2012 12:36 p.m., David L. Johnson escribió: On 03/22/2012 02:08 PM, Alex Vergara Gil wrote: I have an objection to the use of bibitems in LyX: If you use BibTeX you can choose the bibliographic standard such as Vancouver, etc, besides the BibTeX sorts bibliography items in the required order acordingly to the standard; with LyX's bibitems you simply cannot do this and is like turning back to MS Office. Is this a bug? No, it's not a bug. Perhaps it's old-fashioned, but I've never seen the need to bother with bibtex. Most of my papers have maybe 5-10 references, that is certainly easy enough to do "by hand". When I wrote my MSc thesis I must handled with 80 citations in a 100 page piece of work, imagine sort them one by one and changing from order of apearance to alphabetical just to adjust your work to the requirements of the institute!!! It is indeed old fashioned, you must tell the software what kind of bibliography you need and it must automatically reshape and sort it. BibTeX does this work, why LyX can't? Sorry, I don't understand. Of course you can use BibTeX with LyX. Or you can just use bibitems. It's up to you. If you use bibitems, though, then you have to sort them. Why? Because Off course I can use BibTeX with LyX, but to generalize the use of it as a redaction system editors will prefer, it is better to have all the main things in a solely archive, not figures off course, but the bibliography... As initial step I would like to recommend developers to include an option to export bibitems to BibTeX, and a final option should be the use of BibTeX to produce the bibliography from bibitems. This is not too hard to do since most of the work is already done! To do this, you'd have to be able to figure out who the author is, what the title is, etc, etc, etc. It is not going to be possible to figure that out in any reliable way. Richard By using the same algoritms that are already used for the modernCV example (separators }{) Alex
Re: Bibliography handling by LyX
On 03/22/2012 04:02 PM, Alex Vergara Gil wrote: El 22/03/2012 12:36 p.m., David L. Johnson escribió: On 03/22/2012 02:08 PM, Alex Vergara Gil wrote: I have an objection to the use of bibitems in LyX: If you use BibTeX you can choose the bibliographic standard such as Vancouver, etc, besides the BibTeX sorts bibliography items in the required order acordingly to the standard; with LyX's bibitems you simply cannot do this and is like turning back to MS Office. Is this a bug? No, it's not a bug. Perhaps it's old-fashioned, but I've never seen the need to bother with bibtex. Most of my papers have maybe 5-10 references, that is certainly easy enough to do "by hand". When I wrote my MSc thesis I must handled with 80 citations in a 100 page piece of work, imagine sort them one by one and changing from order of apearance to alphabetical just to adjust your work to the requirements of the institute!!! It is indeed old fashioned, you must tell the software what kind of bibliography you need and it must automatically reshape and sort it. BibTeX does this work, why LyX can't? Sorry, I don't understand. Of course you can use BibTeX with LyX. Or you can just use bibitems. It's up to you. If you use bibitems, though, then you have to sort them. Why? Because As initial step I would like to recommend developers to include an option to export bibitems to BibTeX, and a final option should be the use of BibTeX to produce the bibliography from bibitems. This is not too hard to do since most of the work is already done! To do this, you'd have to be able to figure out who the author is, what the title is, etc, etc, etc. It is not going to be possible to figure that out in any reliable way. Richard
Bibliography handling by LyX (was: Article layout for plos?)
El 22/03/2012 12:36 p.m., David L. Johnson escribio': On 03/22/2012 02:08 PM, Alex Vergara Gil wrote: I have an objection to the use of bibitems in LyX: If you use BibTeX you can choose the bibliographic standard such as Vancouver, etc, besides the BibTeX sorts bibliography items in the required order acordingly to the standard; with LyX's bibitems you simply cannot do this and is like turning back to MS Office. Is this a bug? No, it's not a bug. Perhaps it's old-fashioned, but I've never seen the need to bother with bibtex. Most of my papers have maybe 5-10 references, that is certainly easy enough to do "by hand". When I wrote my MSc thesis I must handled with 80 citations in a 100 page piece of work, imagine sort them one by one and changing from order of apearance to alphabetical just to adjust your work to the requirements of the institute!!! It is indeed old fashioned, you must tell the software what kind of bibliography you need and it must automatically reshape and sort it. BibTeX does this work, why LyX can't? As initial step I would like to recommend developers to include an option to export bibitems to BibTeX, and a final option should be the use of BibTeX to produce the bibliography from bibitems. This is not too hard to do since most of the work is already done! -- David L. Johnson Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job. -- Douglas Adams Saludos ~-o--{}--o-~ Alex Vergara Gil MSc. Fi'sica Nuclear Laboratorio Secundario de Calibracio'n Dosime'trica Centro de Proteccio'n e Higiene de las Radiaciones Calle No. 4113 e/ 41 y 47 Playa, C de la Habana C.P.11300 La Habana, Cuba Direccio'n postal A.P.6195 C.P.10600 Telf: (537)6829681, (537)6821803 Fax: (537)2030165