Re: Times Roman vs Latin Modern Roman Font

[G. Milde]

On 29.08.08, William Adams wrote:
 On Aug 29, 2008, at 6:30 AM, G. Milde wrote:

 There is no Palatino Sans

 Actually, the new Palatino Nova family introduces Palatino Sans and  
 Palatino Sans Informal.

More actually, Palatino Sans is a new typeface, not part of but related to
Palatino Nova (but as well and as close to the traditional Palatino
families).

http://www.linotype.com/3201/palatinosans.html

However, it is not free.

GM

Re: Times Roman vs Latin Modern Roman Font

[G. Milde]

On 29.08.08, William Adams wrote:
 On Aug 29, 2008, at 6:30 AM, G. Milde wrote:

 There is no Palatino Sans

 Actually, the new Palatino Nova family introduces Palatino Sans and  
 Palatino Sans Informal.

More actually, Palatino Sans is a new typeface, not part of but related to
Palatino Nova (but as well and as close to the traditional Palatino
families).

http://www.linotype.com/3201/palatinosans.html

However, it is not free.

GM

Re: Times Roman vs Latin Modern Roman Font

[G. Milde]

On 29.08.08, William Adams wrote:
> On Aug 29, 2008, at 6:30 AM, G. Milde wrote:

>> There is no Palatino Sans

> Actually, the new Palatino Nova family introduces Palatino Sans and  
> Palatino Sans Informal.

More actually, Palatino Sans is a new typeface, not part of but related to
Palatino Nova (but as well and as close to the "traditional" Palatino
families).

http://www.linotype.com/3201/palatinosans.html

However, it is not free.

GM

Re: Times Roman vs Latin Modern Roman Font

[G. Milde]

On 28.08.08, Paul A. Rubin wrote:
 Rich Shepard wrote:
 My default typeface is Palatino. It's a combination of
 traditional and modern and always evokes a positive response.

 The LyX font dialog lists Palatino but not Palatino Sans.  

There is no Palatino Sans (there is no Times-Sans either). Actually, only
few font brands inclode both a serif and sans-serif family.

 What do you use for sans serif (and for typewriter), default?

Sans-Serif: default, because I do not use sans serifs in the document.
Otherwise, depending on the audience 
I'd take one of Iwona, Helvetica, Avant-Garde or a
Vera-Sans variant (Bera or Arev).
There are TeX-Gyre extensions for Helvetica and Avant-Garde
as well (but not via the GUI).

Typewriter: txtt (nice font with bold, slanted and
small-caps, part of the txfonts bundle)

default in the GUI and 

   \renewcommand{\ttdefault}{txtt}

in the LaTeX preamble. 
(see also http://bugzilla.lyx.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4979)

Although I am by far not a font-guru, I spend some amount of time and
effort into the topic and compiled an up-to-date survey about Free math
fonts for LaTeX (in German) with  40 samples of both serif and
sans-serif text-math font combinations. I just wonder, where to publish
it.

Günter  

Re: Times Roman vs Latin Modern Roman Font

[G. Milde]

On 28.08.08, Paul A. Rubin wrote:
 G. Milde wrote:

 For on-screen viewing (e.g. of generated PDF) I'd recommend the Vera
 family (Bera Serif in the DocumentSettings).

 I tried this in a beamer presentation (originally Latin Modern, default  
 size).  Apparently the Bera fonts are bigger, because some text was  
 driven off the slide.  

Different metrics for different fonts is perfectly normal.
(Times is especially narrow, Bookman especially wide, Palatino and CM in the
middle. Also, the x-hight varies.)

 I had to change the document default to 10 pt to  
 get things right.  Is this normal?

No, in a beamer presentation you should rather put less text on a slide than
decrease the script size so that the audience still has a chance to
recognise what is written ;-)

An example for an especially wide font intended for presentations are the
lxfonts http://dante.ctan.org/CTAN/help/Catalogue/entries/lxfonts.html
with discussion of the topic in
http://dante.ctan.org/CTAN/fonts/lxfonts/doc/fonts/lxfonts/LXfonts-demo.pdf

Günter

Re: Times Roman vs Latin Modern Roman Font

[Rich Shepard]

On Fri, 29 Aug 2008, G. Milde wrote:


Although I am by far not a font-guru, I spend some amount of time and
effort into the topic and compiled an up-to-date survey about Free math
fonts for LaTeX (in German) with  40 samples of both serif and
sans-serif text-math font combinations. I just wonder, where to publish
it.


Günter,

  Why not PracTeX, the TeX journal?

Rich

--
Richard B. Shepard, Ph.D.   |  IntegrityCredibility
Applied Ecosystem Services, Inc.|Innovation
http://www.appl-ecosys.com Voice: 503-667-4517  Fax: 503-667-8863

Re: Times Roman vs Latin Modern Roman Font

[William Adams]

On Aug 29, 2008, at 6:30 AM, G. Milde wrote:


There is no Palatino Sans


Actually, the new Palatino Nova family introduces Palatino Sans and  
Palatino Sans Informal:


http://www.linotype.com/2567/palatinonova.html

William

--
William Adams
senior graphic designer
Fry Communications

Re: Times Roman vs Latin Modern Roman Font

[G. Milde]

On 28.08.08, Paul A. Rubin wrote:
 Rich Shepard wrote:
 My default typeface is Palatino. It's a combination of
 traditional and modern and always evokes a positive response.

 The LyX font dialog lists Palatino but not Palatino Sans.  

There is no Palatino Sans (there is no Times-Sans either). Actually, only
few font brands inclode both a serif and sans-serif family.

 What do you use for sans serif (and for typewriter), default?

Sans-Serif: default, because I do not use sans serifs in the document.
Otherwise, depending on the audience 
I'd take one of Iwona, Helvetica, Avant-Garde or a
Vera-Sans variant (Bera or Arev).
There are TeX-Gyre extensions for Helvetica and Avant-Garde
as well (but not via the GUI).

Typewriter: txtt (nice font with bold, slanted and
small-caps, part of the txfonts bundle)

default in the GUI and 

   \renewcommand{\ttdefault}{txtt}

in the LaTeX preamble. 
(see also http://bugzilla.lyx.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4979)

Although I am by far not a font-guru, I spend some amount of time and
effort into the topic and compiled an up-to-date survey about Free math
fonts for LaTeX (in German) with  40 samples of both serif and
sans-serif text-math font combinations. I just wonder, where to publish
it.

Günter  

Re: Times Roman vs Latin Modern Roman Font

[G. Milde]

On 28.08.08, Paul A. Rubin wrote:
 G. Milde wrote:

 For on-screen viewing (e.g. of generated PDF) I'd recommend the Vera
 family (Bera Serif in the DocumentSettings).

 I tried this in a beamer presentation (originally Latin Modern, default  
 size).  Apparently the Bera fonts are bigger, because some text was  
 driven off the slide.  

Different metrics for different fonts is perfectly normal.
(Times is especially narrow, Bookman especially wide, Palatino and CM in the
middle. Also, the x-hight varies.)

 I had to change the document default to 10 pt to  
 get things right.  Is this normal?

No, in a beamer presentation you should rather put less text on a slide than
decrease the script size so that the audience still has a chance to
recognise what is written ;-)

An example for an especially wide font intended for presentations are the
lxfonts http://dante.ctan.org/CTAN/help/Catalogue/entries/lxfonts.html
with discussion of the topic in
http://dante.ctan.org/CTAN/fonts/lxfonts/doc/fonts/lxfonts/LXfonts-demo.pdf

Günter

Re: Times Roman vs Latin Modern Roman Font

[Rich Shepard]

On Fri, 29 Aug 2008, G. Milde wrote:


Although I am by far not a font-guru, I spend some amount of time and
effort into the topic and compiled an up-to-date survey about Free math
fonts for LaTeX (in German) with  40 samples of both serif and
sans-serif text-math font combinations. I just wonder, where to publish
it.


Günter,

  Why not PracTeX, the TeX journal?

Rich

--
Richard B. Shepard, Ph.D.   |  IntegrityCredibility
Applied Ecosystem Services, Inc.|Innovation
http://www.appl-ecosys.com Voice: 503-667-4517  Fax: 503-667-8863

Re: Times Roman vs Latin Modern Roman Font

[William Adams]

On Aug 29, 2008, at 6:30 AM, G. Milde wrote:


There is no Palatino Sans


Actually, the new Palatino Nova family introduces Palatino Sans and  
Palatino Sans Informal:


http://www.linotype.com/2567/palatinonova.html

William

--
William Adams
senior graphic designer
Fry Communications

Re: Times Roman vs Latin Modern Roman Font

[G. Milde]

On 28.08.08, Paul A. Rubin wrote:
> Rich Shepard wrote:
>> My default typeface is Palatino. It's a combination of
>> traditional and modern and always evokes a positive response.

> The LyX font dialog lists Palatino but not Palatino Sans.  

There is no Palatino Sans (there is no Times-Sans either). Actually, only
few font "brands" inclode both a serif and sans-serif family.

> What do you use for sans serif (and for typewriter), "default"?

Sans-Serif: default, because I do not use sans serifs in the document.
Otherwise, depending on the audience 
I'd take one of Iwona, Helvetica, Avant-Garde or a
Vera-Sans variant (Bera or Arev).
There are TeX-Gyre extensions for Helvetica and Avant-Garde
as well (but not via the GUI).

Typewriter: txtt (nice font with bold, slanted and
small-caps, part of the txfonts bundle)

"default" in the GUI and 

   \renewcommand{\ttdefault}{txtt}

in the LaTeX preamble. 
(see also http://bugzilla.lyx.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4979)

Although I am by far not a font-guru, I spend some amount of time and
effort into the topic and compiled an up-to-date survey about "Free math
fonts for LaTeX" (in German) with > 40 samples of both serif and
sans-serif text-math font combinations. I just wonder, where to publish
it.

Günter  

Re: Times Roman vs Latin Modern Roman Font

[G. Milde]

On 28.08.08, Paul A. Rubin wrote:
> G. Milde wrote:

>> For on-screen viewing (e.g. of generated PDF) I'd recommend the Vera
>> family ("Bera Serif" in the Document>Settings).

> I tried this in a beamer presentation (originally Latin Modern, default  
> size).  Apparently the Bera fonts are bigger, because some text was  
> driven off the slide.  

Different metrics for different fonts is perfectly normal.
(Times is especially narrow, Bookman especially wide, Palatino and CM in the
middle. Also, the x-hight varies.)

> I had to change the document default to 10 pt to  
> get things right.  Is this normal?

No, in a beamer presentation you should rather put less text on a slide than
decrease the script size so that the audience still has a chance to
recognise what is written ;-)

An example for an especially wide font intended for presentations are the
lxfonts http://dante.ctan.org/CTAN/help/Catalogue/entries/lxfonts.html
with discussion of the topic in
http://dante.ctan.org/CTAN/fonts/lxfonts/doc/fonts/lxfonts/LXfonts-demo.pdf

Günter

Re: Times Roman vs Latin Modern Roman Font

[Rich Shepard]

On Fri, 29 Aug 2008, G. Milde wrote:


Although I am by far not a font-guru, I spend some amount of time and
effort into the topic and compiled an up-to-date survey about "Free math
fonts for LaTeX" (in German) with > 40 samples of both serif and
sans-serif text-math font combinations. I just wonder, where to publish
it.


Günter,

  Why not PracTeX, the TeX journal?

Rich

--
Richard B. Shepard, Ph.D.   |  IntegrityCredibility
Applied Ecosystem Services, Inc.|Innovation
 Voice: 503-667-4517  Fax: 503-667-8863

Re: Times Roman vs Latin Modern Roman Font

[William Adams]

On Aug 29, 2008, at 6:30 AM, G. Milde wrote:


There is no Palatino Sans


Actually, the new Palatino Nova family introduces Palatino Sans and  
Palatino Sans Informal:


http://www.linotype.com/2567/palatinonova.html

William

--
William Adams
senior graphic designer
Fry Communications

Re: Times Roman vs Latin Modern Roman Font

[G. Milde]

On 27.08.08, Rich Shepard wrote:
 On Wed, 27 Aug 2008, Bruce Pourciau wrote:

   Palatino is my default typeface. Now if it only had the \textservicemark
 symbol built in it would be fully complete. :-)

Pagella, the extended version provided by the TeX-Gyre project,
http://dante.ctan.org/CTAN/help/Catalogue/entries/tex-gyre.html
has (amongst a lot of other additional letters and symbols) also a matching
servicemark.

See the attached files. 

Günter


servicemark.lyx
Description: application/lyx


servicemark.pdf
Description: Adobe PDF document

Re: Times Roman vs Latin Modern Roman Font

[Florin Oprina]

So what sans and monospaced fonts would the typography gurus recommend
to go with Palatino / Pagella?

On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 5:45 PM, G. Milde [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On 27.08.08, Rich Shepard wrote:
 On Wed, 27 Aug 2008, Bruce Pourciau wrote:

   Palatino is my default typeface. Now if it only had the \textservicemark
 symbol built in it would be fully complete. :-)

 Pagella, the extended version provided by the TeX-Gyre project,
 http://dante.ctan.org/CTAN/help/Catalogue/entries/tex-gyre.html
 has (amongst a lot of other additional letters and symbols) also a matching
 servicemark.

 See the attached files.

 Günter

Re: Times Roman vs Latin Modern Roman Font

[Paul A. Rubin]

Rich Shepard wrote:

My default typeface is Palatino. It's a combination of
traditional and modern and always evokes a positive response.



The LyX font dialog lists Palatino but not Palatino Sans.  What do you 
use for sans serif (and for typewriter), default?


/Paul

Re: Times Roman vs Latin Modern Roman Font

[Paul A. Rubin]

G. Milde wrote:



For on-screen viewing (e.g. of generated PDF) I'd recommend the Vera
family (Bera Serif in the DocumentSettings).


I tried this in a beamer presentation (originally Latin Modern, default 
size).  Apparently the Bera fonts are bigger, because some text was 
driven off the slide.  I had to change the document default to 10 pt to 
get things right.  Is this normal?


/Paul

Re: Times Roman vs Latin Modern Roman Font

[Rich Shepard]

On Thu, 28 Aug 2008, Paul A. Rubin wrote:


What do you use for sans serif (and for typewriter), default?


Paul,

  Yes. The document classes I use have headings in Palatino, but a larger
size, and I rarely have code or other text fragments in monospace font. So
I've not paid attention to either san serif or typewriter options.

Rich

--
Richard B. Shepard, Ph.D.   |  IntegrityCredibility
Applied Ecosystem Services, Inc.|Innovation
http://www.appl-ecosys.com Voice: 503-667-4517  Fax: 503-667-8863

Re: Times Roman vs Latin Modern Roman Font

[G. Milde]

On 27.08.08, Rich Shepard wrote:
 On Wed, 27 Aug 2008, Bruce Pourciau wrote:

   Palatino is my default typeface. Now if it only had the \textservicemark
 symbol built in it would be fully complete. :-)

Pagella, the extended version provided by the TeX-Gyre project,
http://dante.ctan.org/CTAN/help/Catalogue/entries/tex-gyre.html
has (amongst a lot of other additional letters and symbols) also a matching
servicemark.

See the attached files. 

Günter


servicemark.lyx
Description: application/lyx


servicemark.pdf
Description: Adobe PDF document

Re: Times Roman vs Latin Modern Roman Font

[Florin Oprina]

So what sans and monospaced fonts would the typography gurus recommend
to go with Palatino / Pagella?

On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 5:45 PM, G. Milde [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On 27.08.08, Rich Shepard wrote:
 On Wed, 27 Aug 2008, Bruce Pourciau wrote:

   Palatino is my default typeface. Now if it only had the \textservicemark
 symbol built in it would be fully complete. :-)

 Pagella, the extended version provided by the TeX-Gyre project,
 http://dante.ctan.org/CTAN/help/Catalogue/entries/tex-gyre.html
 has (amongst a lot of other additional letters and symbols) also a matching
 servicemark.

 See the attached files.

 Günter

Re: Times Roman vs Latin Modern Roman Font

[Paul A. Rubin]

Rich Shepard wrote:

My default typeface is Palatino. It's a combination of
traditional and modern and always evokes a positive response.



The LyX font dialog lists Palatino but not Palatino Sans.  What do you 
use for sans serif (and for typewriter), default?


/Paul

Re: Times Roman vs Latin Modern Roman Font

[Paul A. Rubin]

G. Milde wrote:



For on-screen viewing (e.g. of generated PDF) I'd recommend the Vera
family (Bera Serif in the DocumentSettings).


I tried this in a beamer presentation (originally Latin Modern, default 
size).  Apparently the Bera fonts are bigger, because some text was 
driven off the slide.  I had to change the document default to 10 pt to 
get things right.  Is this normal?


/Paul

Re: Times Roman vs Latin Modern Roman Font

[Rich Shepard]

On Thu, 28 Aug 2008, Paul A. Rubin wrote:


What do you use for sans serif (and for typewriter), default?


Paul,

  Yes. The document classes I use have headings in Palatino, but a larger
size, and I rarely have code or other text fragments in monospace font. So
I've not paid attention to either san serif or typewriter options.

Rich

--
Richard B. Shepard, Ph.D.   |  IntegrityCredibility
Applied Ecosystem Services, Inc.|Innovation
http://www.appl-ecosys.com Voice: 503-667-4517  Fax: 503-667-8863

Re: Times Roman vs Latin Modern Roman Font

[G. Milde]

On 27.08.08, Rich Shepard wrote:
> On Wed, 27 Aug 2008, Bruce Pourciau wrote:

>   Palatino is my default typeface. Now if it only had the \textservicemark
> symbol built in it would be fully complete. :-)

Pagella, the extended version provided by the TeX-Gyre project,
http://dante.ctan.org/CTAN/help/Catalogue/entries/tex-gyre.html
has (amongst a lot of other additional letters and symbols) also a matching
servicemark.

See the attached files. 

Günter


servicemark.lyx
Description: application/lyx


servicemark.pdf
Description: Adobe PDF document

Re: Times Roman vs Latin Modern Roman Font

[Florin Oprina]

So what sans and monospaced fonts would the typography gurus recommend
to go with Palatino / Pagella?

On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 5:45 PM, G. Milde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 27.08.08, Rich Shepard wrote:
>> On Wed, 27 Aug 2008, Bruce Pourciau wrote:
>
>>   Palatino is my default typeface. Now if it only had the \textservicemark
>> symbol built in it would be fully complete. :-)
>
> Pagella, the extended version provided by the TeX-Gyre project,
> http://dante.ctan.org/CTAN/help/Catalogue/entries/tex-gyre.html
> has (amongst a lot of other additional letters and symbols) also a matching
> servicemark.
>
> See the attached files.
>
> Günter
>

Re: Times Roman vs Latin Modern Roman Font

[Paul A. Rubin]

Rich Shepard wrote:

My default typeface is Palatino. It's a combination of
traditional and modern and always evokes a positive response.



The LyX font dialog lists Palatino but not Palatino Sans.  What do you 
use for sans serif (and for typewriter), "default"?


/Paul

Re: Times Roman vs Latin Modern Roman Font

[Paul A. Rubin]

G. Milde wrote:



For on-screen viewing (e.g. of generated PDF) I'd recommend the Vera
family ("Bera Serif" in the Document>Settings).


I tried this in a beamer presentation (originally Latin Modern, default 
size).  Apparently the Bera fonts are bigger, because some text was 
driven off the slide.  I had to change the document default to 10 pt to 
get things right.  Is this normal?


/Paul

Re: Times Roman vs Latin Modern Roman Font

[Rich Shepard]

On Thu, 28 Aug 2008, Paul A. Rubin wrote:


What do you use for sans serif (and for typewriter), "default"?


Paul,

  Yes. The document classes I use have headings in Palatino, but a larger
size, and I rarely have code or other text fragments in monospace font. So
I've not paid attention to either san serif or typewriter options.

Rich

--
Richard B. Shepard, Ph.D.   |  IntegrityCredibility
Applied Ecosystem Services, Inc.|Innovation
 Voice: 503-667-4517  Fax: 503-667-8863

Times Roman vs Latin Modern Roman Font

[Abe Lau]

Hi all,
I am wondering what's the difference between Times Roman and Latin Modern
Roman font.

I have read from the mailing list that the Latin Modern Roman (lmodern)
package is preferred over the default Computer Modern Roman.  However, I
can't find any information about Times Roman.

The Times Roman font looks much better on screen and this is the only
difference I could tell from a brief look.  Is there any disadvantage when
compared to Latin Modern Roman?  or is it just a matter of preference?
Thanks,
Abe

Re: Times Roman vs Latin Modern Roman Font

[Les Denham]

On Wednesday 27 August 2008, Abe Lau wrote:
 Hi all,
 I am wondering what's the difference between Times Roman and Latin Modern
 Roman font.

 I have read from the mailing list that the Latin Modern Roman (lmodern)
 package is preferred over the default Computer Modern Roman.  However, I
 can't find any information about Times Roman.

 The Times Roman font looks much better on screen and this is the only
 difference I could tell from a brief look.  Is there any disadvantage when
 compared to Latin Modern Roman?  or is it just a matter of preference?
 Thanks,
 Abe

As Times Roman was originally a newspaper font designed for narrow columns, I 
suspect it is on average slightly narrower than other fonts of the same 
nominal size, to make justification simpler in narrow columns.  This would be 
a disadvantage for a page with a single column, where the larger number of 
characters in the line makes reading more difficult. LaTeX will automatically 
compensate for this by making the default margins wider.  However, most 
people are very much used to Times Roman (and its clones, such as Times New 
Roman) because it is the most common serif font today, so you won't go far 
wrong if you use it.

-- 
Les

~~
Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html

Re: Times Roman vs Latin Modern Roman Font

[Bruce Pourciau]

On Aug 27, 2008, at 8:44 AM, Les Denham wrote:


On Wednesday 27 August 2008, Abe Lau wrote:

Hi all,
I am wondering what's the difference between Times Roman and Latin  
Modern

Roman font.

I have read from the mailing list that the Latin Modern Roman  
(lmodern)
package is preferred over the default Computer Modern Roman.   
However, I

can't find any information about Times Roman.

The Times Roman font looks much better on screen and this is the only
difference I could tell from a brief look.  Is there any  
disadvantage when
compared to Latin Modern Roman?  or is it just a matter of  
preference?

Thanks,
Abe


As Times Roman was originally a newspaper font designed for narrow  
columns, I
suspect it is on average slightly narrower than other fonts of the  
same
nominal size, to make justification simpler in narrow columns.   
This would be
a disadvantage for a page with a single column, where the larger  
number of
characters in the line makes reading more difficult. LaTeX will  
automatically
compensate for this by making the default margins wider.  However,  
most
people are very much used to Times Roman (and its clones, such as  
Times New
Roman) because it is the most common serif font today, so you won't  
go far

wrong if you use it.

--
Les

~~
Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html



On the other hand, The Elements of Typographic Style by Robert  
Bringhurst, the current bible for serious typographers, in its list  
of favorite typefaces with commentaries, does not even include Times  
Roman! This is certainly damnation by omission. As Les points out,  
Times Roman was designed as a newspaper typeface, so it would be  
readable in narrow columns. This hardly would be expected to produce  
the best looking face for normal work. On the other hand, Palatino,  
for example, was designed by Herman Zapf, one of the great type  
designers, and it is available (in LyX document settings) with small  
caps, old style numerals, and mathematical symbols that blend.


Bruce

Re: Times Roman vs Latin Modern Roman Font

[G. Milde]

On 27.08.08, Bruce Pourciau wrote:
 On Aug 27, 2008, at 8:44 AM, Les Denham wrote:
 On Wednesday 27 August 2008, Abe Lau wrote:
 Hi all, I am wondering what's the difference between Times Roman and
 Latin Modern Roman font.

 I have read from the mailing list that the Latin Modern Roman 
 (lmodern) package is preferred over the default Computer Modern
 Roman. 

Latin Modern can be thought of as the successor of Computer Modern.
It is a reimplementation as outline font. It covers a wide range of
characters and symbols including true small caps and fits well with
the mathematical fonts used by LaTeX (which might be a problem for
any other font).

OTOH, I find the Latin Modern fonts too light in print (if printed
with a laser printer) and not very nice for on-screen rendering.

 The Times Roman font looks much better on screen and this is the only
 difference I could tell from a brief look.

For on-screen viewing (e.g. of generated PDF) I'd recommend the Vera
family (Bera Serif in the DocumentSettings).

Günter

Re: Times Roman vs Latin Modern Roman Font

[Rich Shepard]

On Wed, 27 Aug 2008, Les Denham wrote:


However, most people are very much used to Times Roman (and its clones,
such as Times New Roman) because it is the most common serif font today,
so you won't go far wrong if you use it.


  Yes you will. It's the most common because it's the Microsoft default.
Period.

  Typefaces have subtle and subconscious effects on the reader. Pick a
typeface that implies professionalism (if that's the impression you want to
make) and use that. My default typeface is Palatino. It's a combination of
traditional and modern and always evokes a positive response.

Rich

--
Richard B. Shepard, Ph.D.   |  IntegrityCredibility
Applied Ecosystem Services, Inc.|Innovation
http://www.appl-ecosys.com Voice: 503-667-4517  Fax: 503-667-8863

Re: Times Roman vs Latin Modern Roman Font

[Rich Shepard]

On Wed, 27 Aug 2008, Bruce Pourciau wrote:


On the other hand, The Elements of Typographic Style by Robert Bringhurst,
the current bible for serious typographers, in its list of favorite
typefaces with commentaries, does not even include Times Roman! This is
certainly damnation by omission. As Les points out, Times Roman was
designed as a newspaper typeface, so it would be readable in narrow
columns. This hardly would be expected to produce the best looking face
for normal work. On the other hand, Palatino, for example, was designed by
Herman Zapf, one of the great type designers, and it is available (in LyX
document settings) with small caps, old style numerals, and mathematical
symbols that blend.


Bruce,

  Palatino is my default typeface. Now if it only had the \textservicemark
symbol built in it would be fully complete. :-)

  And I'll second the recommendation for Bringhurst's book. It's worth
reading just to appreciate the subtle differences among the hundreds of
available designs.

Rich

--
Richard B. Shepard, Ph.D.   |  IntegrityCredibility
Applied Ecosystem Services, Inc.|Innovation
http://www.appl-ecosys.com Voice: 503-667-4517  Fax: 503-667-8863

Fwd: Times Roman vs Latin Modern Roman Font

[William Adams]

I'd thought this had gone to the list

Begin forwarded message:


On Aug 27, 2008, at 9:44 AM, Les Denham wrote:


However, most
people are very much used to Times Roman (and its clones, such as  
Times New

Roman)



\begin{typographichistorynitpicking}

Actually, Monotype's Times New Roman is the original, while  
Linotype's Times Roman is the clone --- see Walter Tracy's _Letters  
of Credit_ for the beginnings of the back story on this and an  
article in APHA's journal (sorry, can't recall the details) for the  
balance of what's been made known beyond the ``gentlemen's  
agreement'' to hide the back room dealings.


\end{typographichistorynitpicking}


--
William Adams
senior graphic designer
Fry Communications

Re: Times Roman vs Latin Modern Roman Font

[Paul A. Rubin]

Rich Shepard wrote:



  Typefaces have subtle and subconscious effects on the reader. Pick a
typeface that implies professionalism (if that's the impression you want to
make) and use that. My default typeface is Palatino. It's a combination of
traditional and modern and always evokes a positive response.


So you're saying that if I hand out grades printed in Palatino, I won't 
get the usual bitching and moaning?

Re: Times Roman vs Latin Modern Roman Font

[Bruce Pourciau]

On Aug 27, 2008, at 10:50 AM, Paul A. Rubin wrote:


Rich Shepard wrote:

  Typefaces have subtle and subconscious effects on the reader.  
Pick a
typeface that implies professionalism (if that's the impression  
you want to
make) and use that. My default typeface is Palatino. It's a  
combination of

traditional and modern and always evokes a positive response.


So you're saying that if I hand out grades printed in Palatino, I  
won't get the usual bitching and moaning?





Indeed, careful randomized, double-blind studies have shown that  
grades handed out in Palatino, or for that metter any typeface  
designed by Zapf (like Aldus, Melior, Renaissance, or even Optima),  
induces a spike in endorphins that masks the pain usually associated  
with low marks. Not sure what journal this appeared in, though.

Fwd: Times Roman vs Latin Modern Roman Font

[William Adams]

Eventually, I'll get in the habit of checking the distribution before  
clicking ``Send''


Begin forwarded message:

On Aug 27, 2008, at 10:27 AM, Bruce Pourciau wrote:

Palatino, for example, was designed by Herman Zapf, one of the  
great type designers, and it is available (in LyX document  
settings) with small caps, old style numerals, and mathematical  
symbols that blend.



For Times there's also mathptmx which is quite usable, as well as  
the nascent Stix fonts http://www.stixfonts.org/ or MathTime  
Professional which is well worth the investment if one needs it but  
can't wait for Stix.


--
William Adams
senior graphic designer
Fry Communications

Re: Times Roman vs Latin Modern Roman Font

[Rich Shepard]

On Wed, 27 Aug 2008, Paul A. Rubin wrote:


So you're saying that if I hand out grades printed in Palatino, I won't
get the usual bitching and moaning?


  That's correct. They will be more polite and mature and ask for cheese
with their whine.

Rich

--
Richard B. Shepard, Ph.D.   |  IntegrityCredibility
Applied Ecosystem Services, Inc.|Innovation
http://www.appl-ecosys.com Voice: 503-667-4517  Fax: 503-667-8863

Times Roman vs Latin Modern Roman Font

[Abe Lau]

Hi all,
I am wondering what's the difference between Times Roman and Latin Modern
Roman font.

I have read from the mailing list that the Latin Modern Roman (lmodern)
package is preferred over the default Computer Modern Roman.  However, I
can't find any information about Times Roman.

The Times Roman font looks much better on screen and this is the only
difference I could tell from a brief look.  Is there any disadvantage when
compared to Latin Modern Roman?  or is it just a matter of preference?
Thanks,
Abe

Re: Times Roman vs Latin Modern Roman Font

[Les Denham]

On Wednesday 27 August 2008, Abe Lau wrote:
 Hi all,
 I am wondering what's the difference between Times Roman and Latin Modern
 Roman font.

 I have read from the mailing list that the Latin Modern Roman (lmodern)
 package is preferred over the default Computer Modern Roman.  However, I
 can't find any information about Times Roman.

 The Times Roman font looks much better on screen and this is the only
 difference I could tell from a brief look.  Is there any disadvantage when
 compared to Latin Modern Roman?  or is it just a matter of preference?
 Thanks,
 Abe

As Times Roman was originally a newspaper font designed for narrow columns, I 
suspect it is on average slightly narrower than other fonts of the same 
nominal size, to make justification simpler in narrow columns.  This would be 
a disadvantage for a page with a single column, where the larger number of 
characters in the line makes reading more difficult. LaTeX will automatically 
compensate for this by making the default margins wider.  However, most 
people are very much used to Times Roman (and its clones, such as Times New 
Roman) because it is the most common serif font today, so you won't go far 
wrong if you use it.

-- 
Les

~~
Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html

Re: Times Roman vs Latin Modern Roman Font

[Bruce Pourciau]

On Aug 27, 2008, at 8:44 AM, Les Denham wrote:


On Wednesday 27 August 2008, Abe Lau wrote:

Hi all,
I am wondering what's the difference between Times Roman and Latin  
Modern

Roman font.

I have read from the mailing list that the Latin Modern Roman  
(lmodern)
package is preferred over the default Computer Modern Roman.   
However, I

can't find any information about Times Roman.

The Times Roman font looks much better on screen and this is the only
difference I could tell from a brief look.  Is there any  
disadvantage when
compared to Latin Modern Roman?  or is it just a matter of  
preference?

Thanks,
Abe


As Times Roman was originally a newspaper font designed for narrow  
columns, I
suspect it is on average slightly narrower than other fonts of the  
same
nominal size, to make justification simpler in narrow columns.   
This would be
a disadvantage for a page with a single column, where the larger  
number of
characters in the line makes reading more difficult. LaTeX will  
automatically
compensate for this by making the default margins wider.  However,  
most
people are very much used to Times Roman (and its clones, such as  
Times New
Roman) because it is the most common serif font today, so you won't  
go far

wrong if you use it.

--
Les

~~
Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html



On the other hand, The Elements of Typographic Style by Robert  
Bringhurst, the current bible for serious typographers, in its list  
of favorite typefaces with commentaries, does not even include Times  
Roman! This is certainly damnation by omission. As Les points out,  
Times Roman was designed as a newspaper typeface, so it would be  
readable in narrow columns. This hardly would be expected to produce  
the best looking face for normal work. On the other hand, Palatino,  
for example, was designed by Herman Zapf, one of the great type  
designers, and it is available (in LyX document settings) with small  
caps, old style numerals, and mathematical symbols that blend.


Bruce

Re: Times Roman vs Latin Modern Roman Font

[G. Milde]

On 27.08.08, Bruce Pourciau wrote:
 On Aug 27, 2008, at 8:44 AM, Les Denham wrote:
 On Wednesday 27 August 2008, Abe Lau wrote:
 Hi all, I am wondering what's the difference between Times Roman and
 Latin Modern Roman font.

 I have read from the mailing list that the Latin Modern Roman 
 (lmodern) package is preferred over the default Computer Modern
 Roman. 

Latin Modern can be thought of as the successor of Computer Modern.
It is a reimplementation as outline font. It covers a wide range of
characters and symbols including true small caps and fits well with
the mathematical fonts used by LaTeX (which might be a problem for
any other font).

OTOH, I find the Latin Modern fonts too light in print (if printed
with a laser printer) and not very nice for on-screen rendering.

 The Times Roman font looks much better on screen and this is the only
 difference I could tell from a brief look.

For on-screen viewing (e.g. of generated PDF) I'd recommend the Vera
family (Bera Serif in the DocumentSettings).

Günter

Re: Times Roman vs Latin Modern Roman Font

[Rich Shepard]

On Wed, 27 Aug 2008, Les Denham wrote:


However, most people are very much used to Times Roman (and its clones,
such as Times New Roman) because it is the most common serif font today,
so you won't go far wrong if you use it.


  Yes you will. It's the most common because it's the Microsoft default.
Period.

  Typefaces have subtle and subconscious effects on the reader. Pick a
typeface that implies professionalism (if that's the impression you want to
make) and use that. My default typeface is Palatino. It's a combination of
traditional and modern and always evokes a positive response.

Rich

--
Richard B. Shepard, Ph.D.   |  IntegrityCredibility
Applied Ecosystem Services, Inc.|Innovation
http://www.appl-ecosys.com Voice: 503-667-4517  Fax: 503-667-8863

Re: Times Roman vs Latin Modern Roman Font

[Rich Shepard]

On Wed, 27 Aug 2008, Bruce Pourciau wrote:


On the other hand, The Elements of Typographic Style by Robert Bringhurst,
the current bible for serious typographers, in its list of favorite
typefaces with commentaries, does not even include Times Roman! This is
certainly damnation by omission. As Les points out, Times Roman was
designed as a newspaper typeface, so it would be readable in narrow
columns. This hardly would be expected to produce the best looking face
for normal work. On the other hand, Palatino, for example, was designed by
Herman Zapf, one of the great type designers, and it is available (in LyX
document settings) with small caps, old style numerals, and mathematical
symbols that blend.


Bruce,

  Palatino is my default typeface. Now if it only had the \textservicemark
symbol built in it would be fully complete. :-)

  And I'll second the recommendation for Bringhurst's book. It's worth
reading just to appreciate the subtle differences among the hundreds of
available designs.

Rich

--
Richard B. Shepard, Ph.D.   |  IntegrityCredibility
Applied Ecosystem Services, Inc.|Innovation
http://www.appl-ecosys.com Voice: 503-667-4517  Fax: 503-667-8863

Fwd: Times Roman vs Latin Modern Roman Font

[William Adams]

I'd thought this had gone to the list

Begin forwarded message:


On Aug 27, 2008, at 9:44 AM, Les Denham wrote:


However, most
people are very much used to Times Roman (and its clones, such as  
Times New

Roman)



\begin{typographichistorynitpicking}

Actually, Monotype's Times New Roman is the original, while  
Linotype's Times Roman is the clone --- see Walter Tracy's _Letters  
of Credit_ for the beginnings of the back story on this and an  
article in APHA's journal (sorry, can't recall the details) for the  
balance of what's been made known beyond the ``gentlemen's  
agreement'' to hide the back room dealings.


\end{typographichistorynitpicking}


--
William Adams
senior graphic designer
Fry Communications

Re: Times Roman vs Latin Modern Roman Font

[Paul A. Rubin]

Rich Shepard wrote:



  Typefaces have subtle and subconscious effects on the reader. Pick a
typeface that implies professionalism (if that's the impression you want to
make) and use that. My default typeface is Palatino. It's a combination of
traditional and modern and always evokes a positive response.


So you're saying that if I hand out grades printed in Palatino, I won't 
get the usual bitching and moaning?

Re: Times Roman vs Latin Modern Roman Font

[Bruce Pourciau]

On Aug 27, 2008, at 10:50 AM, Paul A. Rubin wrote:


Rich Shepard wrote:

  Typefaces have subtle and subconscious effects on the reader.  
Pick a
typeface that implies professionalism (if that's the impression  
you want to
make) and use that. My default typeface is Palatino. It's a  
combination of

traditional and modern and always evokes a positive response.


So you're saying that if I hand out grades printed in Palatino, I  
won't get the usual bitching and moaning?





Indeed, careful randomized, double-blind studies have shown that  
grades handed out in Palatino, or for that metter any typeface  
designed by Zapf (like Aldus, Melior, Renaissance, or even Optima),  
induces a spike in endorphins that masks the pain usually associated  
with low marks. Not sure what journal this appeared in, though.

Fwd: Times Roman vs Latin Modern Roman Font

[William Adams]

Eventually, I'll get in the habit of checking the distribution before  
clicking ``Send''


Begin forwarded message:

On Aug 27, 2008, at 10:27 AM, Bruce Pourciau wrote:

Palatino, for example, was designed by Herman Zapf, one of the  
great type designers, and it is available (in LyX document  
settings) with small caps, old style numerals, and mathematical  
symbols that blend.



For Times there's also mathptmx which is quite usable, as well as  
the nascent Stix fonts http://www.stixfonts.org/ or MathTime  
Professional which is well worth the investment if one needs it but  
can't wait for Stix.


--
William Adams
senior graphic designer
Fry Communications

Re: Times Roman vs Latin Modern Roman Font

[Rich Shepard]

On Wed, 27 Aug 2008, Paul A. Rubin wrote:


So you're saying that if I hand out grades printed in Palatino, I won't
get the usual bitching and moaning?


  That's correct. They will be more polite and mature and ask for cheese
with their whine.

Rich

--
Richard B. Shepard, Ph.D.   |  IntegrityCredibility
Applied Ecosystem Services, Inc.|Innovation
http://www.appl-ecosys.com Voice: 503-667-4517  Fax: 503-667-8863

Times Roman vs Latin Modern Roman Font

[Abe Lau]

Hi all,
I am wondering what's the difference between Times Roman and Latin Modern
Roman font.

I have read from the mailing list that the Latin Modern Roman (lmodern)
package is preferred over the default Computer Modern Roman.  However, I
can't find any information about Times Roman.

The Times Roman font looks much better on screen and this is the only
difference I could tell from a brief look.  Is there any disadvantage when
compared to Latin Modern Roman?  or is it just a matter of preference?
Thanks,
Abe

Re: Times Roman vs Latin Modern Roman Font

[Les Denham]

On Wednesday 27 August 2008, Abe Lau wrote:
> Hi all,
> I am wondering what's the difference between Times Roman and Latin Modern
> Roman font.
>
> I have read from the mailing list that the Latin Modern Roman (lmodern)
> package is preferred over the default Computer Modern Roman.  However, I
> can't find any information about Times Roman.
>
> The Times Roman font looks much better on screen and this is the only
> difference I could tell from a brief look.  Is there any disadvantage when
> compared to Latin Modern Roman?  or is it just a matter of preference?
> Thanks,
> Abe

As Times Roman was originally a newspaper font designed for narrow columns, I 
suspect it is on average slightly narrower than other fonts of the same 
nominal size, to make justification simpler in narrow columns.  This would be 
a disadvantage for a page with a single column, where the larger number of 
characters in the line makes reading more difficult. LaTeX will automatically 
compensate for this by making the default margins wider.  However, most 
people are very much used to Times Roman (and its clones, such as Times New 
Roman) because it is the most common serif font today, so you won't go far 
wrong if you use it.

-- 
Les

~~
Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html

Re: Times Roman vs Latin Modern Roman Font

[Bruce Pourciau]

On Aug 27, 2008, at 8:44 AM, Les Denham wrote:


On Wednesday 27 August 2008, Abe Lau wrote:

Hi all,
I am wondering what's the difference between Times Roman and Latin  
Modern

Roman font.

I have read from the mailing list that the Latin Modern Roman  
(lmodern)
package is preferred over the default Computer Modern Roman.   
However, I

can't find any information about Times Roman.

The Times Roman font looks much better on screen and this is the only
difference I could tell from a brief look.  Is there any  
disadvantage when
compared to Latin Modern Roman?  or is it just a matter of  
preference?

Thanks,
Abe


As Times Roman was originally a newspaper font designed for narrow  
columns, I
suspect it is on average slightly narrower than other fonts of the  
same
nominal size, to make justification simpler in narrow columns.   
This would be
a disadvantage for a page with a single column, where the larger  
number of
characters in the line makes reading more difficult. LaTeX will  
automatically
compensate for this by making the default margins wider.  However,  
most
people are very much used to Times Roman (and its clones, such as  
Times New
Roman) because it is the most common serif font today, so you won't  
go far

wrong if you use it.

--
Les

~~
Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html



On the other hand, The Elements of Typographic Style by Robert  
Bringhurst, the current bible for serious typographers, in its list  
of favorite typefaces with commentaries, does not even include Times  
Roman! This is certainly damnation by omission. As Les points out,  
Times Roman was designed as a newspaper typeface, so it would be  
readable in narrow columns. This hardly would be expected to produce  
the best looking face for normal work. On the other hand, Palatino,  
for example, was designed by Herman Zapf, one of the great type  
designers, and it is available (in LyX document settings) with small  
caps, old style numerals, and mathematical symbols that blend.


Bruce

Re: Times Roman vs Latin Modern Roman Font

[G. Milde]

On 27.08.08, Bruce Pourciau wrote:
> On Aug 27, 2008, at 8:44 AM, Les Denham wrote:
>> On Wednesday 27 August 2008, Abe Lau wrote:
>>> Hi all, I am wondering what's the difference between Times Roman and
>>> Latin Modern Roman font.

>>> I have read from the mailing list that the Latin Modern Roman 
>>> (lmodern) package is preferred over the default Computer Modern
>>> Roman. 

Latin Modern can be thought of as the successor of Computer Modern.
It is a "reimplementation" as outline font. It covers a wide range of
characters and symbols including true small caps and fits well with
the mathematical fonts used by LaTeX (which might be a problem for
any other font).

OTOH, I find the Latin Modern fonts too light in print (if printed
with a laser printer) and not very nice for on-screen rendering.

>>> The Times Roman font looks much better on screen and this is the only
>>> difference I could tell from a brief look.

For on-screen viewing (e.g. of generated PDF) I'd recommend the Vera
family ("Bera Serif" in the Document>Settings).

Günter

Re: Times Roman vs Latin Modern Roman Font

[Rich Shepard]

On Wed, 27 Aug 2008, Les Denham wrote:


However, most people are very much used to Times Roman (and its clones,
such as Times New Roman) because it is the most common serif font today,
so you won't go far wrong if you use it.


  Yes you will. It's the most common because it's the Microsoft default.
Period.

  Typefaces have subtle and subconscious effects on the reader. Pick a
typeface that implies professionalism (if that's the impression you want to
make) and use that. My default typeface is Palatino. It's a combination of
traditional and modern and always evokes a positive response.

Rich

--
Richard B. Shepard, Ph.D.   |  IntegrityCredibility
Applied Ecosystem Services, Inc.|Innovation
 Voice: 503-667-4517  Fax: 503-667-8863

Re: Times Roman vs Latin Modern Roman Font

[Rich Shepard]

On Wed, 27 Aug 2008, Bruce Pourciau wrote:


On the other hand, The Elements of Typographic Style by Robert Bringhurst,
the current bible for serious typographers, in its list of favorite
typefaces with commentaries, does not even include Times Roman! This is
certainly damnation by omission. As Les points out, Times Roman was
designed as a newspaper typeface, so it would be readable in narrow
columns. This hardly would be expected to produce the best looking face
for normal work. On the other hand, Palatino, for example, was designed by
Herman Zapf, one of the great type designers, and it is available (in LyX
document settings) with small caps, old style numerals, and mathematical
symbols that blend.


Bruce,

  Palatino is my default typeface. Now if it only had the \textservicemark
symbol built in it would be fully complete. :-)

  And I'll second the recommendation for Bringhurst's book. It's worth
reading just to appreciate the subtle differences among the hundreds of
available designs.

Rich

--
Richard B. Shepard, Ph.D.   |  IntegrityCredibility
Applied Ecosystem Services, Inc.|Innovation
 Voice: 503-667-4517  Fax: 503-667-8863

Fwd: Times Roman vs Latin Modern Roman Font

[William Adams]

I'd thought this had gone to the list

Begin forwarded message:


On Aug 27, 2008, at 9:44 AM, Les Denham wrote:


However, most
people are very much used to Times Roman (and its clones, such as  
Times New

Roman)



\begin{typographichistorynitpicking}

Actually, Monotype's Times New Roman is the original, while  
Linotype's Times Roman is the clone --- see Walter Tracy's _Letters  
of Credit_ for the beginnings of the back story on this and an  
article in APHA's journal (sorry, can't recall the details) for the  
balance of what's been made known beyond the ``gentlemen's  
agreement'' to hide the back room dealings.


\end{typographichistorynitpicking}


--
William Adams
senior graphic designer
Fry Communications

Re: Times Roman vs Latin Modern Roman Font

[Paul A. Rubin]

Rich Shepard wrote:



  Typefaces have subtle and subconscious effects on the reader. Pick a
typeface that implies professionalism (if that's the impression you want to
make) and use that. My default typeface is Palatino. It's a combination of
traditional and modern and always evokes a positive response.


So you're saying that if I hand out grades printed in Palatino, I won't 
get the usual bitching and moaning?

Re: Times Roman vs Latin Modern Roman Font

[Bruce Pourciau]

On Aug 27, 2008, at 10:50 AM, Paul A. Rubin wrote:


Rich Shepard wrote:

  Typefaces have subtle and subconscious effects on the reader.  
Pick a
typeface that implies professionalism (if that's the impression  
you want to
make) and use that. My default typeface is Palatino. It's a  
combination of

traditional and modern and always evokes a positive response.


So you're saying that if I hand out grades printed in Palatino, I  
won't get the usual bitching and moaning?





Indeed, careful randomized, double-blind studies have shown that  
grades handed out in Palatino, or for that metter any typeface  
designed by Zapf (like Aldus, Melior, Renaissance, or even Optima),  
induces a spike in endorphins that masks the pain usually associated  
with low marks. Not sure what journal this appeared in, though.

Fwd: Times Roman vs Latin Modern Roman Font

[William Adams]

Eventually, I'll get in the habit of checking the distribution before  
clicking ``Send''


Begin forwarded message:

On Aug 27, 2008, at 10:27 AM, Bruce Pourciau wrote:

Palatino, for example, was designed by Herman Zapf, one of the  
great type designers, and it is available (in LyX document  
settings) with small caps, old style numerals, and mathematical  
symbols that blend.



For Times there's also mathptmx which is quite usable, as well as  
the nascent Stix fonts http://www.stixfonts.org/ or MathTime  
Professional which is well worth the investment if one needs it but  
can't wait for Stix.


--
William Adams
senior graphic designer
Fry Communications

Re: Times Roman vs Latin Modern Roman Font

[Rich Shepard]

On Wed, 27 Aug 2008, Paul A. Rubin wrote:


So you're saying that if I hand out grades printed in Palatino, I won't
get the usual bitching and moaning?


  That's correct. They will be more polite and mature and ask for cheese
with their whine.

Rich

--
Richard B. Shepard, Ph.D.   |  IntegrityCredibility
Applied Ecosystem Services, Inc.|Innovation
 Voice: 503-667-4517  Fax: 503-667-8863