Re: the dreaded docx export - WAS: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

2013-06-14 Thread Rainer M Krug 

Ray Rashif schivmeis...@gmail.com writes:

 On 12 June 2013 20:45, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:

 stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com writes:

  On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 9:11 AM, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:
 
  stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com writes:
 
   On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 2:21 AM, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de
 wrote:
  
   Ray Rashif schivmeis...@gmail.com writes:
  
On 12 June 2013 03:57, stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com
   wrote:
   
   
   
   
On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Ray Rashif 
 schivmeis...@gmail.com
   wrote:
   
On 11 June 2013 14:15, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:
   
I wanted to survey the LyX and LaTeX community for some opinions
 on
   this,
perhaps to get an idea as to the demand for some research into
 this
   area.
The project would do some empirical comparisons of the
 workarounds
  and
propose at most two or three solutions that work (integration
 with
   Pandoc,
or converintg directly to a simpler and well-supported language).
   
The emphasis would be on retaining as much semantic meaning as
   possible,
across different levels of complexity, starting from the very
  basic. I
   am
not aware of any similar academic or non-academic effort, but
 this
   could
also be a long blog post.
   
   
   
HI Ray,
   
I am not sure about what you're asking, exactly? Perhaps a survey
 of
  the
different lyx-doc(x) use cases that current lyx users care most
  about?
   Or
rather a definition of the simplest yet still useful use case we
 can
imagine? If the former, I would suggest starting a page on our
 wiki,
perhaps as a possible GSoC 2014 project, as a repository of useful
  cases
  
   I think to start a wiki page to outline a possible GSoC 2014 project
   would be a good idea.
  
  
   I created a page here:
 http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/GSoCProjectIdeasFor2014
   The first item on the page is Round trip conversion between LyX and
  .docx
   formats http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/GSoCProjectIdeasFor2014#toc1
   I entered a minimal description of what I take is both Rainer's and
 Ray's
   wishes.
   Could you guys expand it?
 
  Thanks Stefano.
 
  just added my ideas and my understanding[1]. Please add your ideas and
  suggestions.
 
 
 
  Thanks Rainer. I added a couple of desired items to your list.

 To collate the discussion, I added a ticket:

 http://www.lyx.org/trac/ticket/8745

 to record discussions there.

 Please feel free to close the ticket if this is an wrong usage of a
 ticket.


 Thanks guys, that's a good start. At first I wasn't sure how relevant this
 would be for LyX or a summer program like GSoC, but with what you guys have
 written the idea can be adapted and defined well. I'll add on if I see
 anything else missing.

Great - now we should nurture it and see that it has grown into
something worth of getting into the GSoC next year.

Cheers,

Rainer



 --
 GPG/PGP ID: C0711BF1

-- 
Rainer M. Krug

email: RMKrugatgmaildotcom


pgpCiXbkFfBbd.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: the dreaded docx export - WAS: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

2013-06-14 Thread Rainer M Krug 

Ray Rashif schivmeis...@gmail.com writes:

 On 12 June 2013 20:45, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:

 stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com writes:

  On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 9:11 AM, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:
 
  stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com writes:
 
   On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 2:21 AM, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de
 wrote:
  
   Ray Rashif schivmeis...@gmail.com writes:
  
On 12 June 2013 03:57, stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com
   wrote:
   
   
   
   
On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Ray Rashif 
 schivmeis...@gmail.com
   wrote:
   
On 11 June 2013 14:15, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:
   
I wanted to survey the LyX and LaTeX community for some opinions
 on
   this,
perhaps to get an idea as to the demand for some research into
 this
   area.
The project would do some empirical comparisons of the
 workarounds
  and
propose at most two or three solutions that work (integration
 with
   Pandoc,
or converintg directly to a simpler and well-supported language).
   
The emphasis would be on retaining as much semantic meaning as
   possible,
across different levels of complexity, starting from the very
  basic. I
   am
not aware of any similar academic or non-academic effort, but
 this
   could
also be a long blog post.
   
   
   
HI Ray,
   
I am not sure about what you're asking, exactly? Perhaps a survey
 of
  the
different lyx-doc(x) use cases that current lyx users care most
  about?
   Or
rather a definition of the simplest yet still useful use case we
 can
imagine? If the former, I would suggest starting a page on our
 wiki,
perhaps as a possible GSoC 2014 project, as a repository of useful
  cases
  
   I think to start a wiki page to outline a possible GSoC 2014 project
   would be a good idea.
  
  
   I created a page here:
 http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/GSoCProjectIdeasFor2014
   The first item on the page is Round trip conversion between LyX and
  .docx
   formats http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/GSoCProjectIdeasFor2014#toc1
   I entered a minimal description of what I take is both Rainer's and
 Ray's
   wishes.
   Could you guys expand it?
 
  Thanks Stefano.
 
  just added my ideas and my understanding[1]. Please add your ideas and
  suggestions.
 
 
 
  Thanks Rainer. I added a couple of desired items to your list.

 To collate the discussion, I added a ticket:

 http://www.lyx.org/trac/ticket/8745

 to record discussions there.

 Please feel free to close the ticket if this is an wrong usage of a
 ticket.


 Thanks guys, that's a good start. At first I wasn't sure how relevant this
 would be for LyX or a summer program like GSoC, but with what you guys have
 written the idea can be adapted and defined well. I'll add on if I see
 anything else missing.

Great - now we should nurture it and see that it has grown into
something worth of getting into the GSoC next year.

Cheers,

Rainer



 --
 GPG/PGP ID: C0711BF1

-- 
Rainer M. Krug

email: RMKrugatgmaildotcom


pgpCiXbkFfBbd.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: the dreaded docx export - WAS: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

2013-06-14 Thread Rainer M Krug 

Ray Rashif  writes:

> On 12 June 2013 20:45, Rainer M Krug  wrote:
>
>> stefano franchi  writes:
>>
>> > On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 9:11 AM, Rainer M Krug  wrote:
>> >
>> >> stefano franchi  writes:
>> >>
>> >> > On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 2:21 AM, Rainer M Krug 
>> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> Ray Rashif  writes:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > On 12 June 2013 03:57, stefano franchi 
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Ray Rashif <
>> schivmeis...@gmail.com
>> >> >> >wrote:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>> On 11 June 2013 14:15, Rainer M Krug  wrote:
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> I wanted to survey the LyX and LaTeX community for some opinions
>> on
>> >> >> this,
>> >> >> >>> perhaps to get an idea as to the demand for some research into
>> this
>> >> >> area.
>> >> >> >>> The project would do some empirical comparisons of the
>> workarounds
>> >> and
>> >> >> >>> propose at most two or three solutions that work (integration
>> with
>> >> >> Pandoc,
>> >> >> >>> or converintg directly to a simpler and well-supported language).
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> The emphasis would be on retaining as much semantic meaning as
>> >> >> possible,
>> >> >> >>> across different levels of complexity, starting from the very
>> >> basic. I
>> >> >> am
>> >> >> >>> not aware of any similar academic or non-academic effort, but
>> this
>> >> >> could
>> >> >> >>> also be a long blog post.
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> HI Ray,
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> I am not sure about what you're asking, exactly? Perhaps a survey
>> of
>> >> the
>> >> >> >> different lyx-doc(x) use cases that current lyx users care most
>> >> about?
>> >> >> Or
>> >> >> >> rather a definition of the simplest yet still useful use case we
>> can
>> >> >> >> imagine? If the former, I would suggest starting a page on our
>> wiki,
>> >> >> >> perhaps as a possible GSoC 2014 project, as a repository of useful
>> >> cases
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I think to start a wiki page to outline a possible GSoC 2014 project
>> >> >> would be a good idea.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> > I created a page here:
>> http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/GSoCProjectIdeasFor2014
>> >> > The first item on the page is "Round trip conversion between LyX and
>> >> .docx
>> >> > formats "
>> >> > I entered a minimal description of what I take is both Rainer's and
>> Ray's
>> >> > wishes.
>> >> > Could you guys expand it?
>> >>
>> >> Thanks Stefano.
>> >>
>> >> just added my ideas and my understanding[1]. Please add your ideas and
>> >> suggestions.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> > Thanks Rainer. I added a couple of desired items to your list.
>>
>> To collate the discussion, I added a ticket:
>>
>> http://www.lyx.org/trac/ticket/8745
>>
>> to record discussions there.
>>
>> Please feel free to close the ticket if this is an wrong usage of a
>> ticket.
>
>
> Thanks guys, that's a good start. At first I wasn't sure how relevant this
> would be for LyX or a summer program like GSoC, but with what you guys have
> written the idea can be adapted and defined well. I'll add on if I see
> anything else missing.

Great - now we should nurture it and see that it has grown into
something worth of getting into the GSoC next year.

Cheers,

Rainer

>
>
> --
> GPG/PGP ID: C0711BF1

-- 
Rainer M. Krug

email: RMKruggmailcom


pgpCiXbkFfBbd.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: the dreaded docx export - WAS: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

2013-06-13 Thread Ray Rashif 
On 12 June 2013 20:45, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:

 stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com writes:

  On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 9:11 AM, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:
 
  stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com writes:
 
   On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 2:21 AM, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de
 wrote:
  
   Ray Rashif schivmeis...@gmail.com writes:
  
On 12 June 2013 03:57, stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com
   wrote:
   
   
   
   
On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Ray Rashif 
 schivmeis...@gmail.com
   wrote:
   
On 11 June 2013 14:15, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:
   
I wanted to survey the LyX and LaTeX community for some opinions
 on
   this,
perhaps to get an idea as to the demand for some research into
 this
   area.
The project would do some empirical comparisons of the
 workarounds
  and
propose at most two or three solutions that work (integration
 with
   Pandoc,
or converintg directly to a simpler and well-supported language).
   
The emphasis would be on retaining as much semantic meaning as
   possible,
across different levels of complexity, starting from the very
  basic. I
   am
not aware of any similar academic or non-academic effort, but
 this
   could
also be a long blog post.
   
   
   
HI Ray,
   
I am not sure about what you're asking, exactly? Perhaps a survey
 of
  the
different lyx-doc(x) use cases that current lyx users care most
  about?
   Or
rather a definition of the simplest yet still useful use case we
 can
imagine? If the former, I would suggest starting a page on our
 wiki,
perhaps as a possible GSoC 2014 project, as a repository of useful
  cases
  
   I think to start a wiki page to outline a possible GSoC 2014 project
   would be a good idea.
  
  
   I created a page here:
 http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/GSoCProjectIdeasFor2014
   The first item on the page is Round trip conversion between LyX and
  .docx
   formats http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/GSoCProjectIdeasFor2014#toc1
   I entered a minimal description of what I take is both Rainer's and
 Ray's
   wishes.
   Could you guys expand it?
 
  Thanks Stefano.
 
  just added my ideas and my understanding[1]. Please add your ideas and
  suggestions.
 
 
 
  Thanks Rainer. I added a couple of desired items to your list.

 To collate the discussion, I added a ticket:

 http://www.lyx.org/trac/ticket/8745

 to record discussions there.

 Please feel free to close the ticket if this is an wrong usage of a
 ticket.


Thanks guys, that's a good start. At first I wasn't sure how relevant this
would be for LyX or a summer program like GSoC, but with what you guys have
written the idea can be adapted and defined well. I'll add on if I see
anything else missing.


--
GPG/PGP ID: C0711BF1

Re: the dreaded docx export - WAS: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

2013-06-13 Thread Ray Rashif 
On 12 June 2013 20:45, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:

 stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com writes:

  On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 9:11 AM, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:
 
  stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com writes:
 
   On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 2:21 AM, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de
 wrote:
  
   Ray Rashif schivmeis...@gmail.com writes:
  
On 12 June 2013 03:57, stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com
   wrote:
   
   
   
   
On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Ray Rashif 
 schivmeis...@gmail.com
   wrote:
   
On 11 June 2013 14:15, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:
   
I wanted to survey the LyX and LaTeX community for some opinions
 on
   this,
perhaps to get an idea as to the demand for some research into
 this
   area.
The project would do some empirical comparisons of the
 workarounds
  and
propose at most two or three solutions that work (integration
 with
   Pandoc,
or converintg directly to a simpler and well-supported language).
   
The emphasis would be on retaining as much semantic meaning as
   possible,
across different levels of complexity, starting from the very
  basic. I
   am
not aware of any similar academic or non-academic effort, but
 this
   could
also be a long blog post.
   
   
   
HI Ray,
   
I am not sure about what you're asking, exactly? Perhaps a survey
 of
  the
different lyx-doc(x) use cases that current lyx users care most
  about?
   Or
rather a definition of the simplest yet still useful use case we
 can
imagine? If the former, I would suggest starting a page on our
 wiki,
perhaps as a possible GSoC 2014 project, as a repository of useful
  cases
  
   I think to start a wiki page to outline a possible GSoC 2014 project
   would be a good idea.
  
  
   I created a page here:
 http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/GSoCProjectIdeasFor2014
   The first item on the page is Round trip conversion between LyX and
  .docx
   formats http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/GSoCProjectIdeasFor2014#toc1
   I entered a minimal description of what I take is both Rainer's and
 Ray's
   wishes.
   Could you guys expand it?
 
  Thanks Stefano.
 
  just added my ideas and my understanding[1]. Please add your ideas and
  suggestions.
 
 
 
  Thanks Rainer. I added a couple of desired items to your list.

 To collate the discussion, I added a ticket:

 http://www.lyx.org/trac/ticket/8745

 to record discussions there.

 Please feel free to close the ticket if this is an wrong usage of a
 ticket.


Thanks guys, that's a good start. At first I wasn't sure how relevant this
would be for LyX or a summer program like GSoC, but with what you guys have
written the idea can be adapted and defined well. I'll add on if I see
anything else missing.


--
GPG/PGP ID: C0711BF1

Re: the dreaded docx export - WAS: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

2013-06-13 Thread Ray Rashif 
On 12 June 2013 20:45, Rainer M Krug  wrote:

> stefano franchi  writes:
>
> > On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 9:11 AM, Rainer M Krug  wrote:
> >
> >> stefano franchi  writes:
> >>
> >> > On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 2:21 AM, Rainer M Krug 
> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Ray Rashif  writes:
> >> >>
> >> >> > On 12 June 2013 03:57, stefano franchi 
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Ray Rashif <
> schivmeis...@gmail.com
> >> >> >wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>> On 11 June 2013 14:15, Rainer M Krug  wrote:
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> I wanted to survey the LyX and LaTeX community for some opinions
> on
> >> >> this,
> >> >> >>> perhaps to get an idea as to the demand for some research into
> this
> >> >> area.
> >> >> >>> The project would do some empirical comparisons of the
> workarounds
> >> and
> >> >> >>> propose at most two or three solutions that work (integration
> with
> >> >> Pandoc,
> >> >> >>> or converintg directly to a simpler and well-supported language).
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> The emphasis would be on retaining as much semantic meaning as
> >> >> possible,
> >> >> >>> across different levels of complexity, starting from the very
> >> basic. I
> >> >> am
> >> >> >>> not aware of any similar academic or non-academic effort, but
> this
> >> >> could
> >> >> >>> also be a long blog post.
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> HI Ray,
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> I am not sure about what you're asking, exactly? Perhaps a survey
> of
> >> the
> >> >> >> different lyx-doc(x) use cases that current lyx users care most
> >> about?
> >> >> Or
> >> >> >> rather a definition of the simplest yet still useful use case we
> can
> >> >> >> imagine? If the former, I would suggest starting a page on our
> wiki,
> >> >> >> perhaps as a possible GSoC 2014 project, as a repository of useful
> >> cases
> >> >>
> >> >> I think to start a wiki page to outline a possible GSoC 2014 project
> >> >> would be a good idea.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> > I created a page here:
> http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/GSoCProjectIdeasFor2014
> >> > The first item on the page is "Round trip conversion between LyX and
> >> .docx
> >> > formats "
> >> > I entered a minimal description of what I take is both Rainer's and
> Ray's
> >> > wishes.
> >> > Could you guys expand it?
> >>
> >> Thanks Stefano.
> >>
> >> just added my ideas and my understanding[1]. Please add your ideas and
> >> suggestions.
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Thanks Rainer. I added a couple of desired items to your list.
>
> To collate the discussion, I added a ticket:
>
> http://www.lyx.org/trac/ticket/8745
>
> to record discussions there.
>
> Please feel free to close the ticket if this is an wrong usage of a
> ticket.


Thanks guys, that's a good start. At first I wasn't sure how relevant this
would be for LyX or a summer program like GSoC, but with what you guys have
written the idea can be adapted and defined well. I'll add on if I see
anything else missing.


--
GPG/PGP ID: C0711BF1

Re: the dreaded docx export - WAS: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

2013-06-12 Thread Rainer M Krug 
Ray Rashif schivmeis...@gmail.com writes:

 On 12 June 2013 03:57, stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com wrote:




 On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Ray Rashif schivmeis...@gmail.comwrote:

 On 11 June 2013 14:15, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:

 I wanted to survey the LyX and LaTeX community for some opinions on this,
 perhaps to get an idea as to the demand for some research into this area.
 The project would do some empirical comparisons of the workarounds and
 propose at most two or three solutions that work (integration with Pandoc,
 or converintg directly to a simpler and well-supported language).

 The emphasis would be on retaining as much semantic meaning as possible,
 across different levels of complexity, starting from the very basic. I am
 not aware of any similar academic or non-academic effort, but this could
 also be a long blog post.



 HI Ray,

 I am not sure about what you're asking, exactly? Perhaps a survey of the
 different lyx-doc(x) use cases that current lyx users care most about? Or
 rather a definition of the simplest yet still useful use case we can
 imagine? If the former, I would suggest starting a page on our wiki,
 perhaps as a possible GSoC 2014 project, as a repository of useful cases

I think to start a wiki page to outline a possible GSoC 2014 project
would be a good idea.

 people could refer to. If the latter...well I'd need further info because
 I'm not really sure what you're aiming for.


 Hey Stefano

 Sorry for the lack of clarity there -- probably a mistake of dumping one or
 two things I had on my mind without context. I was referring to
 cross-platform document interoperability for collaborative writing and
 editing, not really LyX-specific but very much related, and not really a
 new issue.

 If there are people indeed affected by this, and they would like some
 documentation, then I'd like to put in some time to review current issues
 and strategies, and produce working code to convert a non-friendly format
 into a pluggable one (into LyX, LaTeX, Pandoc) for _only_ the use cases
 that matter most (according to the target audience; writers, editors,
 fiction or non-fiction).

Certainly I would be interested in having this info, as I am again have
to compile documents together with word users - and a collection of
strategies how to handle this would be very much welcome.


 Often times I have found myself dealing with only a subset of formatting
 tools during the first phase of a write-up, in most cases a draft, and I
 would often make the mistake of thinking they're simple enough to not break
 collaboration. I would assume many of our workflows start with sections,
 followed by emphasis (boldface and italics), then simple lists (itemized
 and enumerated), footnotes, and finally citations.


This boils down to what I discussed during the thread of LaTeX roundtrip
(unfortunately, I don't have it at hand, but can search if yu can't find
it): having one subset of features for roundtrips to other formats which
are supported. This should be done in a way, so that they can easiliy be
extended, and the general framework (definition and identification of
features supported) should be independent of the other partner in the
roundtrip (docx, latex, odt, ...). In addition, metadata about
non-converted features could be stored, and re-applied / added on the
re-import of the roundtrip.

Furthermore, there should also be an exporter to he format, which tries
to export the document as accurate as possible, but not usable for roundtrips.



 Personally I have never needed anything more complex like cross-references,
 tables and images -- I always schedule them for later phases because they
 interrupt the workflow, although I do make space for them informally (using
 characters I can easily search for). At the end of the day, what I have to
 deal with is a DOC or DOCX file with semantic comments (that are not
 understood by most other tools), no matter where or how I start.

Exactly - that is what is needed for the roundtrip. 

Cheers,

Rainer



 == TL;DR ==
 What I'd like is to solve for the missing input formats in e.g. Pandoc. It
 does not support RTF, DOC, or DOCX, but supports HTML, which Word does not
 output cleanly. Either way, it's something I have had in my mind for some
 time, but too busy to investigate or ask around methodically. Getting an
 idea of the demand for a solution in this case could force me to invest the
 time.

 Inspiration: http://gio.act.gov.au/2013/03/13/document-conversion-markdown/


 --
 GPG/PGP ID: C0711BF1


-- 
Rainer M. Krug, PhD (Conservation Ecology, SUN), MSc (Conservation Biology, 
UCT), Dipl. Phys. (Germany)

Centre of Excellence for Invasion Biology
Stellenbosch University
South Africa

Tel :   +33 - (0)9 53 10 27 44
Cell:   +33 - (0)6 85 62 59 98
Fax :   +33 - (0)9 58 10 27 44

Fax (D):+49 - (0)3 21 21 25 22 44

email:  rai...@krugs.de

Skype:  RMkrug

Re: the dreaded docx export - WAS: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

2013-06-12 Thread stefano franchi 
On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 2:21 AM, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:

 Ray Rashif schivmeis...@gmail.com writes:

  On 12 June 2013 03:57, stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com
 wrote:
 
 
 
 
  On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Ray Rashif schivmeis...@gmail.com
 wrote:
 
  On 11 June 2013 14:15, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:
 
  I wanted to survey the LyX and LaTeX community for some opinions on
 this,
  perhaps to get an idea as to the demand for some research into this
 area.
  The project would do some empirical comparisons of the workarounds and
  propose at most two or three solutions that work (integration with
 Pandoc,
  or converintg directly to a simpler and well-supported language).
 
  The emphasis would be on retaining as much semantic meaning as
 possible,
  across different levels of complexity, starting from the very basic. I
 am
  not aware of any similar academic or non-academic effort, but this
 could
  also be a long blog post.
 
 
 
  HI Ray,
 
  I am not sure about what you're asking, exactly? Perhaps a survey of the
  different lyx-doc(x) use cases that current lyx users care most about?
 Or
  rather a definition of the simplest yet still useful use case we can
  imagine? If the former, I would suggest starting a page on our wiki,
  perhaps as a possible GSoC 2014 project, as a repository of useful cases

 I think to start a wiki page to outline a possible GSoC 2014 project
 would be a good idea.


I created a page here: http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/GSoCProjectIdeasFor2014
The first item on the page is Round trip conversion between LyX and .docx
formats http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/GSoCProjectIdeasFor2014#toc1
I entered a minimal description of what I take is both Rainer's and Ray's
wishes.
Could you guys expand it?


Cheers,

Stefano
-- 
__
Stefano Franchi
Associate Research Professor
Department of Hispanic StudiesPh:   +1 (979) 845-2125
Texas AM University  Fax:  +1 (979) 845-6421
College Station, Texas, USA

stef...@tamu.edu
http://stefano.cleinias.org

Re: the dreaded docx export - WAS: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

2013-06-12 Thread stefano franchi 
On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 9:11 AM, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:

 stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com writes:

  On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 2:21 AM, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:
 
  Ray Rashif schivmeis...@gmail.com writes:
 
   On 12 June 2013 03:57, stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com
  wrote:
  
  
  
  
   On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Ray Rashif schivmeis...@gmail.com
  wrote:
  
   On 11 June 2013 14:15, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:
  
   I wanted to survey the LyX and LaTeX community for some opinions on
  this,
   perhaps to get an idea as to the demand for some research into this
  area.
   The project would do some empirical comparisons of the workarounds
 and
   propose at most two or three solutions that work (integration with
  Pandoc,
   or converintg directly to a simpler and well-supported language).
  
   The emphasis would be on retaining as much semantic meaning as
  possible,
   across different levels of complexity, starting from the very
 basic. I
  am
   not aware of any similar academic or non-academic effort, but this
  could
   also be a long blog post.
  
  
  
   HI Ray,
  
   I am not sure about what you're asking, exactly? Perhaps a survey of
 the
   different lyx-doc(x) use cases that current lyx users care most
 about?
  Or
   rather a definition of the simplest yet still useful use case we can
   imagine? If the former, I would suggest starting a page on our wiki,
   perhaps as a possible GSoC 2014 project, as a repository of useful
 cases
 
  I think to start a wiki page to outline a possible GSoC 2014 project
  would be a good idea.
 
 
  I created a page here: http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/GSoCProjectIdeasFor2014
  The first item on the page is Round trip conversion between LyX and
 .docx
  formats http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/GSoCProjectIdeasFor2014#toc1
  I entered a minimal description of what I take is both Rainer's and Ray's
  wishes.
  Could you guys expand it?

 Thanks Stefano.

 just added my ideas and my understanding[1]. Please add your ideas and
 suggestions.



Thanks Rainer. I added a couple of desired items to your list.


Cheers,

Stefano
-- 
__
Stefano Franchi
Associate Research Professor
Department of Hispanic StudiesPh:   +1 (979) 845-2125
Texas AM University  Fax:  +1 (979) 845-6421
College Station, Texas, USA

stef...@tamu.edu
http://stefano.cleinias.org

Re: the dreaded docx export - WAS: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

2013-06-12 Thread Rainer M Krug 
stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com writes:

 On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 2:21 AM, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:

 Ray Rashif schivmeis...@gmail.com writes:

  On 12 June 2013 03:57, stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com
 wrote:
 
 
 
 
  On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Ray Rashif schivmeis...@gmail.com
 wrote:
 
  On 11 June 2013 14:15, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:
 
  I wanted to survey the LyX and LaTeX community for some opinions on
 this,
  perhaps to get an idea as to the demand for some research into this
 area.
  The project would do some empirical comparisons of the workarounds and
  propose at most two or three solutions that work (integration with
 Pandoc,
  or converintg directly to a simpler and well-supported language).
 
  The emphasis would be on retaining as much semantic meaning as
 possible,
  across different levels of complexity, starting from the very basic. I
 am
  not aware of any similar academic or non-academic effort, but this
 could
  also be a long blog post.
 
 
 
  HI Ray,
 
  I am not sure about what you're asking, exactly? Perhaps a survey of the
  different lyx-doc(x) use cases that current lyx users care most about?
 Or
  rather a definition of the simplest yet still useful use case we can
  imagine? If the former, I would suggest starting a page on our wiki,
  perhaps as a possible GSoC 2014 project, as a repository of useful cases

 I think to start a wiki page to outline a possible GSoC 2014 project
 would be a good idea.


 I created a page here: http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/GSoCProjectIdeasFor2014
 The first item on the page is Round trip conversion between LyX and .docx
 formats http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/GSoCProjectIdeasFor2014#toc1
 I entered a minimal description of what I take is both Rainer's and Ray's
 wishes.
 Could you guys expand it?

Thanks Stefano.

just added my ideas and my understanding[1]. Please add your ideas and
suggestions.

Cheers,

Rainer



 Cheers,

 Stefano



Footnotes: 
[1]  http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/GSoCProjectIdeasFor2014#toc1

-- 
Rainer M. Krug

email: RMKrugatgmaildotcom


pgpKPBRU7QomE.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: the dreaded docx export - WAS: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

2013-06-12 Thread Rainer M Krug 
stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com writes:

 On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 9:11 AM, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:

 stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com writes:

  On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 2:21 AM, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:
 
  Ray Rashif schivmeis...@gmail.com writes:
 
   On 12 June 2013 03:57, stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com
  wrote:
  
  
  
  
   On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Ray Rashif schivmeis...@gmail.com
  wrote:
  
   On 11 June 2013 14:15, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:
  
   I wanted to survey the LyX and LaTeX community for some opinions on
  this,
   perhaps to get an idea as to the demand for some research into this
  area.
   The project would do some empirical comparisons of the workarounds
 and
   propose at most two or three solutions that work (integration with
  Pandoc,
   or converintg directly to a simpler and well-supported language).
  
   The emphasis would be on retaining as much semantic meaning as
  possible,
   across different levels of complexity, starting from the very
 basic. I
  am
   not aware of any similar academic or non-academic effort, but this
  could
   also be a long blog post.
  
  
  
   HI Ray,
  
   I am not sure about what you're asking, exactly? Perhaps a survey of
 the
   different lyx-doc(x) use cases that current lyx users care most
 about?
  Or
   rather a definition of the simplest yet still useful use case we can
   imagine? If the former, I would suggest starting a page on our wiki,
   perhaps as a possible GSoC 2014 project, as a repository of useful
 cases
 
  I think to start a wiki page to outline a possible GSoC 2014 project
  would be a good idea.
 
 
  I created a page here: http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/GSoCProjectIdeasFor2014
  The first item on the page is Round trip conversion between LyX and
 .docx
  formats http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/GSoCProjectIdeasFor2014#toc1
  I entered a minimal description of what I take is both Rainer's and Ray's
  wishes.
  Could you guys expand it?

 Thanks Stefano.

 just added my ideas and my understanding[1]. Please add your ideas and
 suggestions.



 Thanks Rainer. I added a couple of desired items to your list.

To collate the discussion, I added a ticket:

http://www.lyx.org/trac/ticket/8745

to record discussions there.

Please feel free to close the ticket if this is an wrong usage of a
ticket.

Cheers,

Rainer



 Cheers,

 Stefano
#secure method=pgpmime mode=sign

-- 
Rainer M. Krug, PhD (Conservation Ecology, SUN), MSc (Conservation Biology, 
UCT), Dipl. Phys. (Germany)

Centre of Excellence for Invasion Biology
Stellenbosch University
South Africa

Tel :   +33 - (0)9 53 10 27 44
Cell:   +33 - (0)6 85 62 59 98
Fax :   +33 - (0)9 58 10 27 44

Fax (D):+49 - (0)3 21 21 25 22 44

email:  rai...@krugs.de

Skype:  RMkrug

Re: the dreaded docx export - WAS: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

2013-06-12 Thread Rainer M Krug 
Ray Rashif schivmeis...@gmail.com writes:

 On 12 June 2013 03:57, stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com wrote:




 On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Ray Rashif schivmeis...@gmail.comwrote:

 On 11 June 2013 14:15, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:

 I wanted to survey the LyX and LaTeX community for some opinions on this,
 perhaps to get an idea as to the demand for some research into this area.
 The project would do some empirical comparisons of the workarounds and
 propose at most two or three solutions that work (integration with Pandoc,
 or converintg directly to a simpler and well-supported language).

 The emphasis would be on retaining as much semantic meaning as possible,
 across different levels of complexity, starting from the very basic. I am
 not aware of any similar academic or non-academic effort, but this could
 also be a long blog post.



 HI Ray,

 I am not sure about what you're asking, exactly? Perhaps a survey of the
 different lyx-doc(x) use cases that current lyx users care most about? Or
 rather a definition of the simplest yet still useful use case we can
 imagine? If the former, I would suggest starting a page on our wiki,
 perhaps as a possible GSoC 2014 project, as a repository of useful cases

I think to start a wiki page to outline a possible GSoC 2014 project
would be a good idea.

 people could refer to. If the latter...well I'd need further info because
 I'm not really sure what you're aiming for.


 Hey Stefano

 Sorry for the lack of clarity there -- probably a mistake of dumping one or
 two things I had on my mind without context. I was referring to
 cross-platform document interoperability for collaborative writing and
 editing, not really LyX-specific but very much related, and not really a
 new issue.

 If there are people indeed affected by this, and they would like some
 documentation, then I'd like to put in some time to review current issues
 and strategies, and produce working code to convert a non-friendly format
 into a pluggable one (into LyX, LaTeX, Pandoc) for _only_ the use cases
 that matter most (according to the target audience; writers, editors,
 fiction or non-fiction).

Certainly I would be interested in having this info, as I am again have
to compile documents together with word users - and a collection of
strategies how to handle this would be very much welcome.


 Often times I have found myself dealing with only a subset of formatting
 tools during the first phase of a write-up, in most cases a draft, and I
 would often make the mistake of thinking they're simple enough to not break
 collaboration. I would assume many of our workflows start with sections,
 followed by emphasis (boldface and italics), then simple lists (itemized
 and enumerated), footnotes, and finally citations.


This boils down to what I discussed during the thread of LaTeX roundtrip
(unfortunately, I don't have it at hand, but can search if yu can't find
it): having one subset of features for roundtrips to other formats which
are supported. This should be done in a way, so that they can easiliy be
extended, and the general framework (definition and identification of
features supported) should be independent of the other partner in the
roundtrip (docx, latex, odt, ...). In addition, metadata about
non-converted features could be stored, and re-applied / added on the
re-import of the roundtrip.

Furthermore, there should also be an exporter to he format, which tries
to export the document as accurate as possible, but not usable for roundtrips.



 Personally I have never needed anything more complex like cross-references,
 tables and images -- I always schedule them for later phases because they
 interrupt the workflow, although I do make space for them informally (using
 characters I can easily search for). At the end of the day, what I have to
 deal with is a DOC or DOCX file with semantic comments (that are not
 understood by most other tools), no matter where or how I start.

Exactly - that is what is needed for the roundtrip. 

Cheers,

Rainer



 == TL;DR ==
 What I'd like is to solve for the missing input formats in e.g. Pandoc. It
 does not support RTF, DOC, or DOCX, but supports HTML, which Word does not
 output cleanly. Either way, it's something I have had in my mind for some
 time, but too busy to investigate or ask around methodically. Getting an
 idea of the demand for a solution in this case could force me to invest the
 time.

 Inspiration: http://gio.act.gov.au/2013/03/13/document-conversion-markdown/


 --
 GPG/PGP ID: C0711BF1


-- 
Rainer M. Krug, PhD (Conservation Ecology, SUN), MSc (Conservation Biology, 
UCT), Dipl. Phys. (Germany)

Centre of Excellence for Invasion Biology
Stellenbosch University
South Africa

Tel :   +33 - (0)9 53 10 27 44
Cell:   +33 - (0)6 85 62 59 98
Fax :   +33 - (0)9 58 10 27 44

Fax (D):+49 - (0)3 21 21 25 22 44

email:  rai...@krugs.de

Skype:  RMkrug

Re: the dreaded docx export - WAS: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

2013-06-12 Thread stefano franchi 
On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 2:21 AM, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:

 Ray Rashif schivmeis...@gmail.com writes:

  On 12 June 2013 03:57, stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com
 wrote:
 
 
 
 
  On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Ray Rashif schivmeis...@gmail.com
 wrote:
 
  On 11 June 2013 14:15, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:
 
  I wanted to survey the LyX and LaTeX community for some opinions on
 this,
  perhaps to get an idea as to the demand for some research into this
 area.
  The project would do some empirical comparisons of the workarounds and
  propose at most two or three solutions that work (integration with
 Pandoc,
  or converintg directly to a simpler and well-supported language).
 
  The emphasis would be on retaining as much semantic meaning as
 possible,
  across different levels of complexity, starting from the very basic. I
 am
  not aware of any similar academic or non-academic effort, but this
 could
  also be a long blog post.
 
 
 
  HI Ray,
 
  I am not sure about what you're asking, exactly? Perhaps a survey of the
  different lyx-doc(x) use cases that current lyx users care most about?
 Or
  rather a definition of the simplest yet still useful use case we can
  imagine? If the former, I would suggest starting a page on our wiki,
  perhaps as a possible GSoC 2014 project, as a repository of useful cases

 I think to start a wiki page to outline a possible GSoC 2014 project
 would be a good idea.


I created a page here: http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/GSoCProjectIdeasFor2014
The first item on the page is Round trip conversion between LyX and .docx
formats http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/GSoCProjectIdeasFor2014#toc1
I entered a minimal description of what I take is both Rainer's and Ray's
wishes.
Could you guys expand it?


Cheers,

Stefano
-- 
__
Stefano Franchi
Associate Research Professor
Department of Hispanic StudiesPh:   +1 (979) 845-2125
Texas AM University  Fax:  +1 (979) 845-6421
College Station, Texas, USA

stef...@tamu.edu
http://stefano.cleinias.org

Re: the dreaded docx export - WAS: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

2013-06-12 Thread stefano franchi 
On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 9:11 AM, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:

 stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com writes:

  On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 2:21 AM, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:
 
  Ray Rashif schivmeis...@gmail.com writes:
 
   On 12 June 2013 03:57, stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com
  wrote:
  
  
  
  
   On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Ray Rashif schivmeis...@gmail.com
  wrote:
  
   On 11 June 2013 14:15, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:
  
   I wanted to survey the LyX and LaTeX community for some opinions on
  this,
   perhaps to get an idea as to the demand for some research into this
  area.
   The project would do some empirical comparisons of the workarounds
 and
   propose at most two or three solutions that work (integration with
  Pandoc,
   or converintg directly to a simpler and well-supported language).
  
   The emphasis would be on retaining as much semantic meaning as
  possible,
   across different levels of complexity, starting from the very
 basic. I
  am
   not aware of any similar academic or non-academic effort, but this
  could
   also be a long blog post.
  
  
  
   HI Ray,
  
   I am not sure about what you're asking, exactly? Perhaps a survey of
 the
   different lyx-doc(x) use cases that current lyx users care most
 about?
  Or
   rather a definition of the simplest yet still useful use case we can
   imagine? If the former, I would suggest starting a page on our wiki,
   perhaps as a possible GSoC 2014 project, as a repository of useful
 cases
 
  I think to start a wiki page to outline a possible GSoC 2014 project
  would be a good idea.
 
 
  I created a page here: http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/GSoCProjectIdeasFor2014
  The first item on the page is Round trip conversion between LyX and
 .docx
  formats http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/GSoCProjectIdeasFor2014#toc1
  I entered a minimal description of what I take is both Rainer's and Ray's
  wishes.
  Could you guys expand it?

 Thanks Stefano.

 just added my ideas and my understanding[1]. Please add your ideas and
 suggestions.



Thanks Rainer. I added a couple of desired items to your list.


Cheers,

Stefano
-- 
__
Stefano Franchi
Associate Research Professor
Department of Hispanic StudiesPh:   +1 (979) 845-2125
Texas AM University  Fax:  +1 (979) 845-6421
College Station, Texas, USA

stef...@tamu.edu
http://stefano.cleinias.org

Re: the dreaded docx export - WAS: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

2013-06-12 Thread Rainer M Krug 
stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com writes:

 On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 2:21 AM, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:

 Ray Rashif schivmeis...@gmail.com writes:

  On 12 June 2013 03:57, stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com
 wrote:
 
 
 
 
  On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Ray Rashif schivmeis...@gmail.com
 wrote:
 
  On 11 June 2013 14:15, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:
 
  I wanted to survey the LyX and LaTeX community for some opinions on
 this,
  perhaps to get an idea as to the demand for some research into this
 area.
  The project would do some empirical comparisons of the workarounds and
  propose at most two or three solutions that work (integration with
 Pandoc,
  or converintg directly to a simpler and well-supported language).
 
  The emphasis would be on retaining as much semantic meaning as
 possible,
  across different levels of complexity, starting from the very basic. I
 am
  not aware of any similar academic or non-academic effort, but this
 could
  also be a long blog post.
 
 
 
  HI Ray,
 
  I am not sure about what you're asking, exactly? Perhaps a survey of the
  different lyx-doc(x) use cases that current lyx users care most about?
 Or
  rather a definition of the simplest yet still useful use case we can
  imagine? If the former, I would suggest starting a page on our wiki,
  perhaps as a possible GSoC 2014 project, as a repository of useful cases

 I think to start a wiki page to outline a possible GSoC 2014 project
 would be a good idea.


 I created a page here: http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/GSoCProjectIdeasFor2014
 The first item on the page is Round trip conversion between LyX and .docx
 formats http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/GSoCProjectIdeasFor2014#toc1
 I entered a minimal description of what I take is both Rainer's and Ray's
 wishes.
 Could you guys expand it?

Thanks Stefano.

just added my ideas and my understanding[1]. Please add your ideas and
suggestions.

Cheers,

Rainer



 Cheers,

 Stefano



Footnotes: 
[1]  http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/GSoCProjectIdeasFor2014#toc1

-- 
Rainer M. Krug

email: RMKrugatgmaildotcom


pgpKPBRU7QomE.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: the dreaded docx export - WAS: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

2013-06-12 Thread Rainer M Krug 
stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com writes:

 On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 9:11 AM, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:

 stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com writes:

  On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 2:21 AM, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:
 
  Ray Rashif schivmeis...@gmail.com writes:
 
   On 12 June 2013 03:57, stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com
  wrote:
  
  
  
  
   On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Ray Rashif schivmeis...@gmail.com
  wrote:
  
   On 11 June 2013 14:15, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:
  
   I wanted to survey the LyX and LaTeX community for some opinions on
  this,
   perhaps to get an idea as to the demand for some research into this
  area.
   The project would do some empirical comparisons of the workarounds
 and
   propose at most two or three solutions that work (integration with
  Pandoc,
   or converintg directly to a simpler and well-supported language).
  
   The emphasis would be on retaining as much semantic meaning as
  possible,
   across different levels of complexity, starting from the very
 basic. I
  am
   not aware of any similar academic or non-academic effort, but this
  could
   also be a long blog post.
  
  
  
   HI Ray,
  
   I am not sure about what you're asking, exactly? Perhaps a survey of
 the
   different lyx-doc(x) use cases that current lyx users care most
 about?
  Or
   rather a definition of the simplest yet still useful use case we can
   imagine? If the former, I would suggest starting a page on our wiki,
   perhaps as a possible GSoC 2014 project, as a repository of useful
 cases
 
  I think to start a wiki page to outline a possible GSoC 2014 project
  would be a good idea.
 
 
  I created a page here: http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/GSoCProjectIdeasFor2014
  The first item on the page is Round trip conversion between LyX and
 .docx
  formats http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/GSoCProjectIdeasFor2014#toc1
  I entered a minimal description of what I take is both Rainer's and Ray's
  wishes.
  Could you guys expand it?

 Thanks Stefano.

 just added my ideas and my understanding[1]. Please add your ideas and
 suggestions.



 Thanks Rainer. I added a couple of desired items to your list.

To collate the discussion, I added a ticket:

http://www.lyx.org/trac/ticket/8745

to record discussions there.

Please feel free to close the ticket if this is an wrong usage of a
ticket.

Cheers,

Rainer



 Cheers,

 Stefano
#secure method=pgpmime mode=sign

-- 
Rainer M. Krug, PhD (Conservation Ecology, SUN), MSc (Conservation Biology, 
UCT), Dipl. Phys. (Germany)

Centre of Excellence for Invasion Biology
Stellenbosch University
South Africa

Tel :   +33 - (0)9 53 10 27 44
Cell:   +33 - (0)6 85 62 59 98
Fax :   +33 - (0)9 58 10 27 44

Fax (D):+49 - (0)3 21 21 25 22 44

email:  rai...@krugs.de

Skype:  RMkrug

Re: the dreaded docx export - WAS: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

2013-06-12 Thread Rainer M Krug 
Ray Rashif  writes:

> On 12 June 2013 03:57, stefano franchi  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Ray Rashif wrote:
>>
>>> On 11 June 2013 14:15, Rainer M Krug  wrote:
>>>
>>> I wanted to survey the LyX and LaTeX community for some opinions on this,
>>> perhaps to get an idea as to the demand for some research into this area.
>>> The project would do some empirical comparisons of the workarounds and
>>> propose at most two or three solutions that work (integration with Pandoc,
>>> or converintg directly to a simpler and well-supported language).
>>>
>>> The emphasis would be on retaining as much semantic meaning as possible,
>>> across different levels of complexity, starting from the very basic. I am
>>> not aware of any similar academic or non-academic effort, but this could
>>> also be a long blog post.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> HI Ray,
>>
>> I am not sure about what you're asking, exactly? Perhaps a survey of the
>> different lyx-doc(x) use cases that current lyx users care most about? Or
>> rather a definition of the simplest yet still useful use case we can
>> imagine? If the former, I would suggest starting a page on our wiki,
>> perhaps as a possible GSoC 2014 project, as a repository of useful cases

I think to start a wiki page to outline a possible GSoC 2014 project
would be a good idea.

>> people could refer to. If the latter...well I'd need further info because
>> I'm not really sure what you're aiming for.
>>
>
> Hey Stefano
>
> Sorry for the lack of clarity there -- probably a mistake of dumping one or
> two things I had on my mind without context. I was referring to
> cross-platform document interoperability for collaborative writing and
> editing, not really LyX-specific but very much related, and not really a
> new issue.
>
> If there are people indeed affected by this, and they would like some
> documentation, then I'd like to put in some time to review current issues
> and strategies, and produce working code to convert a non-friendly format
> into a pluggable one (into LyX, LaTeX, Pandoc) for _only_ the use cases
> that matter most (according to the target audience; writers, editors,
> fiction or non-fiction).

Certainly I would be interested in having this info, as I am again have
to compile documents together with word users - and a collection of
strategies how to handle this would be very much welcome.

>
> Often times I have found myself dealing with only a subset of formatting
> tools during the first phase of a write-up, in most cases a draft, and I
> would often make the mistake of thinking they're simple enough to not break
> collaboration. I would assume many of our workflows start with sections,
> followed by emphasis (boldface and italics), then simple lists (itemized
> and enumerated), footnotes, and finally citations.


This boils down to what I discussed during the thread of LaTeX roundtrip
(unfortunately, I don't have it at hand, but can search if yu can't find
it): having one subset of features for roundtrips to other formats which
are supported. This should be done in a way, so that they can easiliy be
extended, and the general framework (definition and identification of
features supported) should be independent of the other partner in the
roundtrip (docx, latex, odt, ...). In addition, metadata about
non-converted features could be stored, and re-applied / added on the
re-import of the roundtrip.

Furthermore, there should also be an exporter to he format, which tries
to export the document as accurate as possible, but not usable for roundtrips.


>
> Personally I have never needed anything more complex like cross-references,
> tables and images -- I always schedule them for later phases because they
> interrupt the workflow, although I do make space for them informally (using
> characters I can easily search for). At the end of the day, what I have to
> deal with is a DOC or DOCX file with semantic comments (that are not
> understood by most other tools), no matter where or how I start.

Exactly - that is what is needed for the roundtrip. 

Cheers,

Rainer


>
> == TL;DR ==
> What I'd like is to solve for the missing input formats in e.g. Pandoc. It
> does not support RTF, DOC, or DOCX, but supports HTML, which Word does not
> output cleanly. Either way, it's something I have had in my mind for some
> time, but too busy to investigate or ask around methodically. Getting an
> idea of the demand for a solution in this case could force me to invest the
> time.
>
> Inspiration: http://gio.act.gov.au/2013/03/13/document-conversion-markdown/
>
>
> --
> GPG/PGP ID: C0711BF1


-- 
Rainer M. Krug, PhD (Conservation Ecology, SUN), MSc (Conservation Biology, 
UCT), Dipl. Phys. (Germany)

Centre of Excellence for Invasion Biology
Stellenbosch University
South Africa

Tel :   +33 - (0)9 53 10 27 44
Cell:   +33 - (0)6 85 62 59 98
Fax :   +33 - (0)9 58 10 27 44

Fax (D):

Re: the dreaded docx export - WAS: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

2013-06-12 Thread stefano franchi 
On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 2:21 AM, Rainer M Krug  wrote:

> Ray Rashif  writes:
>
> > On 12 June 2013 03:57, stefano franchi 
> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Ray Rashif  >wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 11 June 2013 14:15, Rainer M Krug  wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I wanted to survey the LyX and LaTeX community for some opinions on
> this,
> >>> perhaps to get an idea as to the demand for some research into this
> area.
> >>> The project would do some empirical comparisons of the workarounds and
> >>> propose at most two or three solutions that work (integration with
> Pandoc,
> >>> or converintg directly to a simpler and well-supported language).
> >>>
> >>> The emphasis would be on retaining as much semantic meaning as
> possible,
> >>> across different levels of complexity, starting from the very basic. I
> am
> >>> not aware of any similar academic or non-academic effort, but this
> could
> >>> also be a long blog post.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> HI Ray,
> >>
> >> I am not sure about what you're asking, exactly? Perhaps a survey of the
> >> different lyx-doc(x) use cases that current lyx users care most about?
> Or
> >> rather a definition of the simplest yet still useful use case we can
> >> imagine? If the former, I would suggest starting a page on our wiki,
> >> perhaps as a possible GSoC 2014 project, as a repository of useful cases
>
> I think to start a wiki page to outline a possible GSoC 2014 project
> would be a good idea.
>
>
I created a page here: http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/GSoCProjectIdeasFor2014
The first item on the page is "Round trip conversion between LyX and .docx
formats "
I entered a minimal description of what I take is both Rainer's and Ray's
wishes.
Could you guys expand it?


Cheers,

Stefano
-- 
__
Stefano Franchi
Associate Research Professor
Department of Hispanic StudiesPh:   +1 (979) 845-2125
Texas A University  Fax:  +1 (979) 845-6421
College Station, Texas, USA

stef...@tamu.edu
http://stefano.cleinias.org

Re: the dreaded docx export - WAS: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

2013-06-12 Thread stefano franchi 
On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 9:11 AM, Rainer M Krug  wrote:

> stefano franchi  writes:
>
> > On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 2:21 AM, Rainer M Krug  wrote:
> >
> >> Ray Rashif  writes:
> >>
> >> > On 12 June 2013 03:57, stefano franchi 
> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Ray Rashif  >> >wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>> On 11 June 2013 14:15, Rainer M Krug  wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>> I wanted to survey the LyX and LaTeX community for some opinions on
> >> this,
> >> >>> perhaps to get an idea as to the demand for some research into this
> >> area.
> >> >>> The project would do some empirical comparisons of the workarounds
> and
> >> >>> propose at most two or three solutions that work (integration with
> >> Pandoc,
> >> >>> or converintg directly to a simpler and well-supported language).
> >> >>>
> >> >>> The emphasis would be on retaining as much semantic meaning as
> >> possible,
> >> >>> across different levels of complexity, starting from the very
> basic. I
> >> am
> >> >>> not aware of any similar academic or non-academic effort, but this
> >> could
> >> >>> also be a long blog post.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>
> >> >> HI Ray,
> >> >>
> >> >> I am not sure about what you're asking, exactly? Perhaps a survey of
> the
> >> >> different lyx-doc(x) use cases that current lyx users care most
> about?
> >> Or
> >> >> rather a definition of the simplest yet still useful use case we can
> >> >> imagine? If the former, I would suggest starting a page on our wiki,
> >> >> perhaps as a possible GSoC 2014 project, as a repository of useful
> cases
> >>
> >> I think to start a wiki page to outline a possible GSoC 2014 project
> >> would be a good idea.
> >>
> >>
> > I created a page here: http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/GSoCProjectIdeasFor2014
> > The first item on the page is "Round trip conversion between LyX and
> .docx
> > formats "
> > I entered a minimal description of what I take is both Rainer's and Ray's
> > wishes.
> > Could you guys expand it?
>
> Thanks Stefano.
>
> just added my ideas and my understanding[1]. Please add your ideas and
> suggestions.
>
>

Thanks Rainer. I added a couple of desired items to your list.


Cheers,

Stefano
-- 
__
Stefano Franchi
Associate Research Professor
Department of Hispanic StudiesPh:   +1 (979) 845-2125
Texas A University  Fax:  +1 (979) 845-6421
College Station, Texas, USA

stef...@tamu.edu
http://stefano.cleinias.org

Re: the dreaded docx export - WAS: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

2013-06-12 Thread Rainer M Krug 
stefano franchi  writes:

> On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 2:21 AM, Rainer M Krug  wrote:
>
>> Ray Rashif  writes:
>>
>> > On 12 June 2013 03:57, stefano franchi 
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Ray Rashif > >wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> On 11 June 2013 14:15, Rainer M Krug  wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> I wanted to survey the LyX and LaTeX community for some opinions on
>> this,
>> >>> perhaps to get an idea as to the demand for some research into this
>> area.
>> >>> The project would do some empirical comparisons of the workarounds and
>> >>> propose at most two or three solutions that work (integration with
>> Pandoc,
>> >>> or converintg directly to a simpler and well-supported language).
>> >>>
>> >>> The emphasis would be on retaining as much semantic meaning as
>> possible,
>> >>> across different levels of complexity, starting from the very basic. I
>> am
>> >>> not aware of any similar academic or non-academic effort, but this
>> could
>> >>> also be a long blog post.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> HI Ray,
>> >>
>> >> I am not sure about what you're asking, exactly? Perhaps a survey of the
>> >> different lyx-doc(x) use cases that current lyx users care most about?
>> Or
>> >> rather a definition of the simplest yet still useful use case we can
>> >> imagine? If the former, I would suggest starting a page on our wiki,
>> >> perhaps as a possible GSoC 2014 project, as a repository of useful cases
>>
>> I think to start a wiki page to outline a possible GSoC 2014 project
>> would be a good idea.
>>
>>
> I created a page here: http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/GSoCProjectIdeasFor2014
> The first item on the page is "Round trip conversion between LyX and .docx
> formats "
> I entered a minimal description of what I take is both Rainer's and Ray's
> wishes.
> Could you guys expand it?

Thanks Stefano.

just added my ideas and my understanding[1]. Please add your ideas and
suggestions.

Cheers,

Rainer

>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Stefano



Footnotes: 
[1]  http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/GSoCProjectIdeasFor2014#toc1

-- 
Rainer M. Krug

email: RMKruggmailcom


pgpKPBRU7QomE.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: the dreaded docx export - WAS: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

2013-06-12 Thread Rainer M Krug 
stefano franchi  writes:

> On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 9:11 AM, Rainer M Krug  wrote:
>
>> stefano franchi  writes:
>>
>> > On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 2:21 AM, Rainer M Krug  wrote:
>> >
>> >> Ray Rashif  writes:
>> >>
>> >> > On 12 June 2013 03:57, stefano franchi 
>> >> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Ray Rashif > >> >wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> On 11 June 2013 14:15, Rainer M Krug  wrote:
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> I wanted to survey the LyX and LaTeX community for some opinions on
>> >> this,
>> >> >>> perhaps to get an idea as to the demand for some research into this
>> >> area.
>> >> >>> The project would do some empirical comparisons of the workarounds
>> and
>> >> >>> propose at most two or three solutions that work (integration with
>> >> Pandoc,
>> >> >>> or converintg directly to a simpler and well-supported language).
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> The emphasis would be on retaining as much semantic meaning as
>> >> possible,
>> >> >>> across different levels of complexity, starting from the very
>> basic. I
>> >> am
>> >> >>> not aware of any similar academic or non-academic effort, but this
>> >> could
>> >> >>> also be a long blog post.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> HI Ray,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I am not sure about what you're asking, exactly? Perhaps a survey of
>> the
>> >> >> different lyx-doc(x) use cases that current lyx users care most
>> about?
>> >> Or
>> >> >> rather a definition of the simplest yet still useful use case we can
>> >> >> imagine? If the former, I would suggest starting a page on our wiki,
>> >> >> perhaps as a possible GSoC 2014 project, as a repository of useful
>> cases
>> >>
>> >> I think to start a wiki page to outline a possible GSoC 2014 project
>> >> would be a good idea.
>> >>
>> >>
>> > I created a page here: http://wiki.lyx.org/GSoC/GSoCProjectIdeasFor2014
>> > The first item on the page is "Round trip conversion between LyX and
>> .docx
>> > formats "
>> > I entered a minimal description of what I take is both Rainer's and Ray's
>> > wishes.
>> > Could you guys expand it?
>>
>> Thanks Stefano.
>>
>> just added my ideas and my understanding[1]. Please add your ideas and
>> suggestions.
>>
>>
>
> Thanks Rainer. I added a couple of desired items to your list.

To collate the discussion, I added a ticket:

http://www.lyx.org/trac/ticket/8745

to record discussions there.

Please feel free to close the ticket if this is an wrong usage of a
ticket.

Cheers,

Rainer

>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Stefano
<#secure method=pgpmime mode=sign>

-- 
Rainer M. Krug, PhD (Conservation Ecology, SUN), MSc (Conservation Biology, 
UCT), Dipl. Phys. (Germany)

Centre of Excellence for Invasion Biology
Stellenbosch University
South Africa

Tel :   +33 - (0)9 53 10 27 44
Cell:   +33 - (0)6 85 62 59 98
Fax :   +33 - (0)9 58 10 27 44

Fax (D):+49 - (0)3 21 21 25 22 44

email:  rai...@krugs.de

Skype:  RMkrug

Re: the dreaded docx export - WAS: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

2013-06-11 Thread Ray Rashif 
On 11 June 2013 14:15, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:

 These are just ideas from my side, but to try to incorporate pandoc
 into LyX in the same way as LaTeX is Incorporated, would make LyX even
 more powerful then it is already now.


I agree. In fact, I think this affects me more as an editor, where I have
to collaborate with clients often with a format they're comfortable with.
Recently I've been using pandoc markdown to write stuff and then outputting
to Word, but the back and forth is really becoming annoying as the other
way around is not a painless route.

For a start, both RTF and DOC formats have some inherent issues. I took
some time to briefly benchmark this and came to the conclusion that they're
not really worth the effort. Try converting a simple RTF or DOC file with
one section and some basic formatting (bold, italic). Abiword, OpenOffice,
Ted -- all had problems. However, DOCX is a different story.

I believe that if we define the simplest use case we are satisfied with we
can come up with a good solution for DOCX, which is a (slightly) documented
format (at least, better than RTF or DOC). Rob Oakes did some work on DOC
[1] but it still involves a number of loops and caveats. You can also find
some programmatic examples for writing DOCX on the web [2] and an HTML
converter. [3]

I wanted to survey the LyX and LaTeX community for some opinions on this,
perhaps to get an idea as to the demand for some research into this area.
The project would do some empirical comparisons of the workarounds and
propose at most two or three solutions that work (integration with Pandoc,
or converintg directly to a simpler and well-supported language).

The emphasis would be on retaining as much semantic meaning as possible,
across different levels of complexity, starting from the very basic. I am
not aware of any similar academic or non-academic effort, but this could
also be a long blog post.


[1] http://blog.oak-tree.us/index.php/2010/05/14/msword-lyx-import
[2] http://www.jackreichert.com/2012/11/09/how-to-convert-docx-to-html/
[3] http://www.textfixer.com/html/convert-word-to-html.php


--
GPG/PGP ID: C0711BF1

Re: the dreaded docx export - WAS: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

2013-06-11 Thread stefano franchi 
On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Ray Rashif schivmeis...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 11 June 2013 14:15, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:

 I wanted to survey the LyX and LaTeX community for some opinions on this,
 perhaps to get an idea as to the demand for some research into this area.
 The project would do some empirical comparisons of the workarounds and
 propose at most two or three solutions that work (integration with Pandoc,
 or converintg directly to a simpler and well-supported language).

 The emphasis would be on retaining as much semantic meaning as possible,
 across different levels of complexity, starting from the very basic. I am
 not aware of any similar academic or non-academic effort, but this could
 also be a long blog post.



HI Ray,

I am not sure about what you're asking, exactly? Perhaps a survey of the
different lyx-doc(x) use cases that current lyx users care most about? Or
rather a definition of the simplest yet still useful use case we can
imagine? If the former, I would suggest starting a page on our wiki,
perhaps as a possible GSoC 2014 project, as a repository of useful cases
people could refer to. If the latter...well I'd need further info because
I'm not really sure what you're aiming for.

Cheers,

Stefano
-- 
__
Stefano Franchi
Associate Research Professor
Department of Hispanic StudiesPh:   +1 (979) 845-2125
Texas AM University  Fax:  +1 (979) 845-6421
College Station, Texas, USA

stef...@tamu.edu
http://stefano.cleinias.org

Re: the dreaded docx export - WAS: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

2013-06-11 Thread Ray Rashif 
On 12 June 2013 03:57, stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com wrote:




 On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Ray Rashif schivmeis...@gmail.comwrote:

 On 11 June 2013 14:15, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:

 I wanted to survey the LyX and LaTeX community for some opinions on this,
 perhaps to get an idea as to the demand for some research into this area.
 The project would do some empirical comparisons of the workarounds and
 propose at most two or three solutions that work (integration with Pandoc,
 or converintg directly to a simpler and well-supported language).

 The emphasis would be on retaining as much semantic meaning as possible,
 across different levels of complexity, starting from the very basic. I am
 not aware of any similar academic or non-academic effort, but this could
 also be a long blog post.



 HI Ray,

 I am not sure about what you're asking, exactly? Perhaps a survey of the
 different lyx-doc(x) use cases that current lyx users care most about? Or
 rather a definition of the simplest yet still useful use case we can
 imagine? If the former, I would suggest starting a page on our wiki,
 perhaps as a possible GSoC 2014 project, as a repository of useful cases
 people could refer to. If the latter...well I'd need further info because
 I'm not really sure what you're aiming for.


Hey Stefano

Sorry for the lack of clarity there -- probably a mistake of dumping one or
two things I had on my mind without context. I was referring to
cross-platform document interoperability for collaborative writing and
editing, not really LyX-specific but very much related, and not really a
new issue.

If there are people indeed affected by this, and they would like some
documentation, then I'd like to put in some time to review current issues
and strategies, and produce working code to convert a non-friendly format
into a pluggable one (into LyX, LaTeX, Pandoc) for _only_ the use cases
that matter most (according to the target audience; writers, editors,
fiction or non-fiction).

Often times I have found myself dealing with only a subset of formatting
tools during the first phase of a write-up, in most cases a draft, and I
would often make the mistake of thinking they're simple enough to not break
collaboration. I would assume many of our workflows start with sections,
followed by emphasis (boldface and italics), then simple lists (itemized
and enumerated), footnotes, and finally citations.

Personally I have never needed anything more complex like cross-references,
tables and images -- I always schedule them for later phases because they
interrupt the workflow, although I do make space for them informally (using
characters I can easily search for). At the end of the day, what I have to
deal with is a DOC or DOCX file with semantic comments (that are not
understood by most other tools), no matter where or how I start.

== TL;DR ==
What I'd like is to solve for the missing input formats in e.g. Pandoc. It
does not support RTF, DOC, or DOCX, but supports HTML, which Word does not
output cleanly. Either way, it's something I have had in my mind for some
time, but too busy to investigate or ask around methodically. Getting an
idea of the demand for a solution in this case could force me to invest the
time.

Inspiration: http://gio.act.gov.au/2013/03/13/document-conversion-markdown/


--
GPG/PGP ID: C0711BF1

Re: the dreaded docx export - WAS: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

2013-06-11 Thread Ray Rashif 
On 11 June 2013 14:15, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:

 These are just ideas from my side, but to try to incorporate pandoc
 into LyX in the same way as LaTeX is Incorporated, would make LyX even
 more powerful then it is already now.


I agree. In fact, I think this affects me more as an editor, where I have
to collaborate with clients often with a format they're comfortable with.
Recently I've been using pandoc markdown to write stuff and then outputting
to Word, but the back and forth is really becoming annoying as the other
way around is not a painless route.

For a start, both RTF and DOC formats have some inherent issues. I took
some time to briefly benchmark this and came to the conclusion that they're
not really worth the effort. Try converting a simple RTF or DOC file with
one section and some basic formatting (bold, italic). Abiword, OpenOffice,
Ted -- all had problems. However, DOCX is a different story.

I believe that if we define the simplest use case we are satisfied with we
can come up with a good solution for DOCX, which is a (slightly) documented
format (at least, better than RTF or DOC). Rob Oakes did some work on DOC
[1] but it still involves a number of loops and caveats. You can also find
some programmatic examples for writing DOCX on the web [2] and an HTML
converter. [3]

I wanted to survey the LyX and LaTeX community for some opinions on this,
perhaps to get an idea as to the demand for some research into this area.
The project would do some empirical comparisons of the workarounds and
propose at most two or three solutions that work (integration with Pandoc,
or converintg directly to a simpler and well-supported language).

The emphasis would be on retaining as much semantic meaning as possible,
across different levels of complexity, starting from the very basic. I am
not aware of any similar academic or non-academic effort, but this could
also be a long blog post.


[1] http://blog.oak-tree.us/index.php/2010/05/14/msword-lyx-import
[2] http://www.jackreichert.com/2012/11/09/how-to-convert-docx-to-html/
[3] http://www.textfixer.com/html/convert-word-to-html.php


--
GPG/PGP ID: C0711BF1

Re: the dreaded docx export - WAS: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

2013-06-11 Thread stefano franchi 
On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Ray Rashif schivmeis...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 11 June 2013 14:15, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:

 I wanted to survey the LyX and LaTeX community for some opinions on this,
 perhaps to get an idea as to the demand for some research into this area.
 The project would do some empirical comparisons of the workarounds and
 propose at most two or three solutions that work (integration with Pandoc,
 or converintg directly to a simpler and well-supported language).

 The emphasis would be on retaining as much semantic meaning as possible,
 across different levels of complexity, starting from the very basic. I am
 not aware of any similar academic or non-academic effort, but this could
 also be a long blog post.



HI Ray,

I am not sure about what you're asking, exactly? Perhaps a survey of the
different lyx-doc(x) use cases that current lyx users care most about? Or
rather a definition of the simplest yet still useful use case we can
imagine? If the former, I would suggest starting a page on our wiki,
perhaps as a possible GSoC 2014 project, as a repository of useful cases
people could refer to. If the latter...well I'd need further info because
I'm not really sure what you're aiming for.

Cheers,

Stefano
-- 
__
Stefano Franchi
Associate Research Professor
Department of Hispanic StudiesPh:   +1 (979) 845-2125
Texas AM University  Fax:  +1 (979) 845-6421
College Station, Texas, USA

stef...@tamu.edu
http://stefano.cleinias.org

Re: the dreaded docx export - WAS: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

2013-06-11 Thread Ray Rashif 
On 12 June 2013 03:57, stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com wrote:




 On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Ray Rashif schivmeis...@gmail.comwrote:

 On 11 June 2013 14:15, Rainer M Krug rai...@krugs.de wrote:

 I wanted to survey the LyX and LaTeX community for some opinions on this,
 perhaps to get an idea as to the demand for some research into this area.
 The project would do some empirical comparisons of the workarounds and
 propose at most two or three solutions that work (integration with Pandoc,
 or converintg directly to a simpler and well-supported language).

 The emphasis would be on retaining as much semantic meaning as possible,
 across different levels of complexity, starting from the very basic. I am
 not aware of any similar academic or non-academic effort, but this could
 also be a long blog post.



 HI Ray,

 I am not sure about what you're asking, exactly? Perhaps a survey of the
 different lyx-doc(x) use cases that current lyx users care most about? Or
 rather a definition of the simplest yet still useful use case we can
 imagine? If the former, I would suggest starting a page on our wiki,
 perhaps as a possible GSoC 2014 project, as a repository of useful cases
 people could refer to. If the latter...well I'd need further info because
 I'm not really sure what you're aiming for.


Hey Stefano

Sorry for the lack of clarity there -- probably a mistake of dumping one or
two things I had on my mind without context. I was referring to
cross-platform document interoperability for collaborative writing and
editing, not really LyX-specific but very much related, and not really a
new issue.

If there are people indeed affected by this, and they would like some
documentation, then I'd like to put in some time to review current issues
and strategies, and produce working code to convert a non-friendly format
into a pluggable one (into LyX, LaTeX, Pandoc) for _only_ the use cases
that matter most (according to the target audience; writers, editors,
fiction or non-fiction).

Often times I have found myself dealing with only a subset of formatting
tools during the first phase of a write-up, in most cases a draft, and I
would often make the mistake of thinking they're simple enough to not break
collaboration. I would assume many of our workflows start with sections,
followed by emphasis (boldface and italics), then simple lists (itemized
and enumerated), footnotes, and finally citations.

Personally I have never needed anything more complex like cross-references,
tables and images -- I always schedule them for later phases because they
interrupt the workflow, although I do make space for them informally (using
characters I can easily search for). At the end of the day, what I have to
deal with is a DOC or DOCX file with semantic comments (that are not
understood by most other tools), no matter where or how I start.

== TL;DR ==
What I'd like is to solve for the missing input formats in e.g. Pandoc. It
does not support RTF, DOC, or DOCX, but supports HTML, which Word does not
output cleanly. Either way, it's something I have had in my mind for some
time, but too busy to investigate or ask around methodically. Getting an
idea of the demand for a solution in this case could force me to invest the
time.

Inspiration: http://gio.act.gov.au/2013/03/13/document-conversion-markdown/


--
GPG/PGP ID: C0711BF1

Re: the dreaded docx export - WAS: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

2013-06-11 Thread Ray Rashif 
On 11 June 2013 14:15, Rainer M Krug  wrote:

> These are just ideas from my side, but to try to incorporate pandoc
> into LyX in the same way as LaTeX is Incorporated, would make LyX even
> more powerful then it is already now.
>

I agree. In fact, I think this affects me more as an editor, where I have
to collaborate with clients often with a format they're comfortable with.
Recently I've been using pandoc markdown to write stuff and then outputting
to Word, but the back and forth is really becoming annoying as the other
way around is not a painless route.

For a start, both RTF and DOC formats have some inherent issues. I took
some time to briefly benchmark this and came to the conclusion that they're
not really worth the effort. Try converting a simple RTF or DOC file with
one section and some basic formatting (bold, italic). Abiword, OpenOffice,
Ted -- all had problems. However, DOCX is a different story.

I believe that if we define the simplest use case we are satisfied with we
can come up with a good solution for DOCX, which is a (slightly) documented
format (at least, better than RTF or DOC). Rob Oakes did some work on DOC
[1] but it still involves a number of loops and caveats. You can also find
some programmatic examples for writing DOCX on the web [2] and an HTML
converter. [3]

I wanted to survey the LyX and LaTeX community for some opinions on this,
perhaps to get an idea as to the demand for some research into this area.
The project would do some empirical comparisons of the workarounds and
propose at most two or three solutions that work (integration with Pandoc,
or converintg directly to a simpler and well-supported language).

The emphasis would be on retaining as much semantic meaning as possible,
across different levels of complexity, starting from the very basic. I am
not aware of any similar academic or non-academic effort, but this could
also be a long blog post.


[1] http://blog.oak-tree.us/index.php/2010/05/14/msword-lyx-import
[2] http://www.jackreichert.com/2012/11/09/how-to-convert-docx-to-html/
[3] http://www.textfixer.com/html/convert-word-to-html.php


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Re: the dreaded docx export - WAS: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

2013-06-11 Thread stefano franchi 
On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Ray Rashif  wrote:

> On 11 June 2013 14:15, Rainer M Krug  wrote:
>
> I wanted to survey the LyX and LaTeX community for some opinions on this,
> perhaps to get an idea as to the demand for some research into this area.
> The project would do some empirical comparisons of the workarounds and
> propose at most two or three solutions that work (integration with Pandoc,
> or converintg directly to a simpler and well-supported language).
>
> The emphasis would be on retaining as much semantic meaning as possible,
> across different levels of complexity, starting from the very basic. I am
> not aware of any similar academic or non-academic effort, but this could
> also be a long blog post.
>
>

HI Ray,

I am not sure about what you're asking, exactly? Perhaps a survey of the
different lyx-doc(x) use cases that current lyx users care most about? Or
rather a definition of the simplest yet still useful use case we can
imagine? If the former, I would suggest starting a page on our wiki,
perhaps as a possible GSoC 2014 project, as a repository of useful cases
people could refer to. If the latter...well I'd need further info because
I'm not really sure what you're aiming for.

Cheers,

Stefano
-- 
__
Stefano Franchi
Associate Research Professor
Department of Hispanic StudiesPh:   +1 (979) 845-2125
Texas A University  Fax:  +1 (979) 845-6421
College Station, Texas, USA

stef...@tamu.edu
http://stefano.cleinias.org

Re: the dreaded docx export - WAS: Anyone know of a best-seller written in LyX

2013-06-11 Thread Ray Rashif 
On 12 June 2013 03:57, stefano franchi  wrote:

>
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Ray Rashif wrote:
>
>> On 11 June 2013 14:15, Rainer M Krug  wrote:
>>
>> I wanted to survey the LyX and LaTeX community for some opinions on this,
>> perhaps to get an idea as to the demand for some research into this area.
>> The project would do some empirical comparisons of the workarounds and
>> propose at most two or three solutions that work (integration with Pandoc,
>> or converintg directly to a simpler and well-supported language).
>>
>> The emphasis would be on retaining as much semantic meaning as possible,
>> across different levels of complexity, starting from the very basic. I am
>> not aware of any similar academic or non-academic effort, but this could
>> also be a long blog post.
>>
>>
>
> HI Ray,
>
> I am not sure about what you're asking, exactly? Perhaps a survey of the
> different lyx-doc(x) use cases that current lyx users care most about? Or
> rather a definition of the simplest yet still useful use case we can
> imagine? If the former, I would suggest starting a page on our wiki,
> perhaps as a possible GSoC 2014 project, as a repository of useful cases
> people could refer to. If the latter...well I'd need further info because
> I'm not really sure what you're aiming for.
>

Hey Stefano

Sorry for the lack of clarity there -- probably a mistake of dumping one or
two things I had on my mind without context. I was referring to
cross-platform document interoperability for collaborative writing and
editing, not really LyX-specific but very much related, and not really a
new issue.

If there are people indeed affected by this, and they would like some
documentation, then I'd like to put in some time to review current issues
and strategies, and produce working code to convert a non-friendly format
into a pluggable one (into LyX, LaTeX, Pandoc) for _only_ the use cases
that matter most (according to the target audience; writers, editors,
fiction or non-fiction).

Often times I have found myself dealing with only a subset of formatting
tools during the first phase of a write-up, in most cases a draft, and I
would often make the mistake of thinking they're simple enough to not break
collaboration. I would assume many of our workflows start with sections,
followed by emphasis (boldface and italics), then simple lists (itemized
and enumerated), footnotes, and finally citations.

Personally I have never needed anything more complex like cross-references,
tables and images -- I always schedule them for later phases because they
interrupt the workflow, although I do make space for them informally (using
characters I can easily search for). At the end of the day, what I have to
deal with is a DOC or DOCX file with semantic comments (that are not
understood by most other tools), no matter where or how I start.

== TL;DR ==
What I'd like is to solve for the missing input formats in e.g. Pandoc. It
does not support RTF, DOC, or DOCX, but supports HTML, which Word does not
output cleanly. Either way, it's something I have had in my mind for some
time, but too busy to investigate or ask around methodically. Getting an
idea of the demand for a solution in this case could force me to invest the
time.

Inspiration: http://gio.act.gov.au/2013/03/13/document-conversion-markdown/


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