Re: I need some feedback

[Jens Alfke]

> On Jan 24, 2019, at 7:04 AM, Howard Shere  
> wrote:
> 
> Anyone have any experience trying this out?
> 
> https://github.com/devsisters/libquic 
QUIC is pretty bleeding-edge, part of Google’s post-HTTP2 experiments with 
pushing browser performance.
If you just need to transfer some files, I think a plain old WebSocket library 
would be a more conservative choice.

—Jens ___
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Re: I need some feedback

[Howard Shere]

Anyone have any experience trying this out?

https://github.com/devsisters/libquic



On Jan 18, 2019, at 3:04 PM, Quinn The Eskimo! 
mailto:eski...@apple.com>> wrote:

CAUTION: This email originated from outside of Synchronoss.


On 18 Jan 2019, at 17:33, Howard Shere 
mailto:howard.sh...@synchronoss.com>> wrote:

The code is currently using CommonCrypto …

CommonCrypto will do a good job of each specific crypto algorithm, but network 
security depends on how you assemble those algorithms into a protocol.  That’s 
very hard to do correctly, even by security experts, which is why we’re 
currently on version 1.3 of TLS.

Implementing TLS for a peer-to-peer product like this one is not without its 
challenges, but it’s still much easier than designed your own on-the-wire 
security protocol.

Share and Enjoy
--
Quinn "The Eskimo!"
Apple Developer Relations, Developer Technical Support, Core OS/Hardware


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Re: I need some feedback

[Adam Kaplan]

Having also implemented WebSockets to spec in the past, I agree that people 
shouldn’t be doing that. Too many edge cases to handle, like a single UTF-16 
character split across frames and other madness.

Luckily there are some great WebSocket projects like Starscream ( 
https://github.com/daltoniam/Starscream ); and if you cannot use Swift, it’s 
crusty older brother Jetfire.

For the app that will act as the "server", the Swifter project 
https://github.com/httpswift/swifter provides both an HTTP/1 and WebSockets 
interface. Disclaimer: I have only used Swifter for unit testing the WebSocket 
client in Yahoo Finance, but it should be fine for production as well.

All of this supports TLS and SSL Pinning, so you shouldn’t need to worry about 
encryption at the wire level.

Another option for transferring many large files is to run an HTTP/2 server. 
The “client” side can then leverage NSURLSession’s HTTP/2 support to naively 
blast multiple files efficiently over a single multiplexing TCP connection. I 
don’t know an iOS HTTP/2 server package off-hand, but certainly they are out 
there.

-adam

On Mon, Jan 21, 2019 at 1:10 PM Jens Alfke < Jens Alfke ( Jens Alfke 
 ) > wrote:

> 
> 
> 
> 
>> 
>> 
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> 
> 
> On Jan 18, 2019, at 3:58 PM, Josh Graessley < jgraess...@apple.com > wrote:
> 
> 
> There is an implication here that a WebSocket API would support both a
> client and a server.
> 

Yes, server-side support would be very valuable for P2P use cases.

> 
> Does your radar explicitly ask for client and server? Do you happen to
> have the radar number handy?
> 

Drat, it appears I didn’t actually get around to filing this, since I can’t 
find it in the BugReporter website. :(
I’ve just filed a request as rdar://47430997.

> 
> WebSockets will provide framing, which can make some things easier but it
> won’t help with TLS, especially when it comes to each side validating the
> identity of the peer.
> 

If it’s layered on NSURLSession, then TLS is mostly taken care of on the client 
side. The server implementation would hopefully implement its side of the TLS 
handshake too.

For P2P use there are of course difficulties in establishing trust, but having 
the protocol layer taken care of would still be a big step up for developers.

—Jens (who has had to implement WebSocket on iOS/Mac 3 times now and doesn’t 
want to do it again) ___
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Re: I need some feedback

[Josh Graessley]

> On Jan 18, 2019, at 3:18 PM, Jens Alfke  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On Jan 18, 2019, at 1:04 PM, Quinn The Eskimo! > > wrote:
>> 
>> Implementing TLS for a peer-to-peer product like this one is not without its 
>> challenges,
> 
> It would be easy, if Apple provided a WebSocket API. I really, really wish 
> Apple would provide one. (And yes, I did file a Radar requesting it, six or 
> seven years ago.)

There is an implication here that a WebSocket API would support both a client 
and a server. Does your radar explicitly ask for client and server? Do you 
happen to have the radar number handy?

WebSockets will provide framing, which can make some things easier but it won’t 
help with TLS, especially when it comes to each side validating the identity of 
the peer.

Thanks,
-josh



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Re: I need some feedback

[Jens Alfke]

> On Jan 18, 2019, at 1:04 PM, Quinn The Eskimo!  wrote:
> 
> Implementing TLS for a peer-to-peer product like this one is not without its 
> challenges,

It would be easy, if Apple provided a WebSocket API. I really, really wish 
Apple would provide one. (And yes, I did file a Radar requesting it, six or 
seven years ago.)

—Jens

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Re: I need some feedback

[Quinn "The Eskimo!"]

On 18 Jan 2019, at 17:33, Howard Shere  wrote:

> The code is currently using CommonCrypto …

CommonCrypto will do a good job of each specific crypto algorithm, but network 
security depends on how you assemble those algorithms into a protocol.  That’s 
very hard to do correctly, even by security experts, which is why we’re 
currently on version 1.3 of TLS.

Implementing TLS for a peer-to-peer product like this one is not without its 
challenges, but it’s still much easier than designed your own on-the-wire 
security protocol.

Share and Enjoy
--
Quinn "The Eskimo!"
Apple Developer Relations, Developer Technical Support, Core OS/Hardware


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Re: I need some feedback

[Howard Shere]

The code is currently using CommonCrypto, just looking at all my options before 
I rewrite the transport (which I inherited from previous developers).


On Jan 18, 2019, at 11:30 AM, Jens Alfke 
mailto:j...@mooseyard.com>> wrote:

CAUTION: This email originated from outside of Synchronoss.



On Jan 17, 2019, at 12:26 AM, Quinn The Eskimo! 
mailto:eski...@apple.com>> wrote:

Finally, a question: Is there a reason you’re doing your own encryption rather 
than using TLS?  Creating your own on-the-wire crypto is very tricky, and it’s 
something best left to the experts.

+1. This is fraught with peril. When working directly with ciphers it’s easy to 
make mistakes in design that can render your encryption trivially breakable. 
Then there’s the higher-level problem of key exchange — how do the sender & 
recipient agree on a secret key before the data transfer?

If you go this route, I recommend using libSodium, an open-source 
batteries-included crypto library that provides high-level mechanisms for 
common tasks, instead of making you assemble them out of primitives. You get 
less choice of algorithms, but you do get the assurance that the functionality 
is correctly designed and implemented.

—Jens
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Re: I need some feedback

[Jens Alfke]

> On Jan 17, 2019, at 12:26 AM, Quinn The Eskimo!  wrote:
> 
> Finally, a question: Is there a reason you’re doing your own encryption 
> rather than using TLS?  Creating your own on-the-wire crypto is very tricky, 
> and it’s something best left to the experts.

+1. This is fraught with peril. When working directly with ciphers it’s easy to 
make mistakes in design that can render your encryption trivially breakable. 
Then there’s the higher-level problem of key exchange — how do the sender & 
recipient agree on a secret key before the data transfer?

If you go this route, I recommend using libSodium, an open-source 
batteries-included crypto library that provides high-level mechanisms for 
common tasks, instead of making you assemble them out of primitives. You get 
less choice of algorithms, but you do get the assurance that the functionality 
is correctly designed and implemented.

—Jens ___
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Re: I need some feedback

[Quinn "The Eskimo!"]

On 16 Jan 2019, at 20:32, Howard Shere  wrote:

> We can’t entirely stream from the files because we need to encrypt the data.

H.  I have various points on that front:

* The networking APIs don’t generally support a “send this file to this 
connection” primitive, so you have to read the file and write it to the 
connection using the CPU.  While doing that you can apply your encryption.

* Encryption on modern CPUs is pretty darned fast, so I don’t think that will 
slow you down significantly.

* Assuming you’re using an Apple API for that (like CommonCrypto, as mentioned 
by Yarshure).

* After profiling you may want to introduce some buffering system to pipeline 
the read, the crypto, and the write.  If you do that, make sure you limit the 
size of that buffer.

Finally, a question: Is there a reason you’re doing your own encryption rather 
than using TLS?  Creating your own on-the-wire crypto is very tricky, and it’s 
something best left to the experts.

Share and Enjoy
--
Quinn "The Eskimo!"
Apple Developer Relations, Developer Technical Support, Core OS/Hardware


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Re: I need some feedback

[孔祥波]

CommonCrypto good enough , iOS/macOS have hardware accelerate.

yarshure

On Thu, Jan 17, 2019 at 4:32 AM Howard Shere 
wrote:

>
> We can’t entirely stream from the files because we need to encrypt the
> data.
>
> Any thoughts on using multiple threads rather than one? Or using the GPU
> to encrypt/decrypt the data?
>
> I lean towards using a single thread unless the performance becomes
> limited by the encryption/decryption work, then multiple threads might
> help...
>
>
> On Jan 10, 2019, at 9:58 AM, Quinn The Eskimo!  wrote:
>
>
>
> On 10 Jan 2019, at 15:42, Howard Shere 
> wrote:
>
> Lots of files.
>
>
> That’s likely to be the most interesting part of this.  Transferring a
> single large file over Wi-Fi is pretty straightforward: Open a TCP
> connection and pour bytes down it.  That’ll be fast and work well in a wide
> variety of network environments.  You may be able to do better with a
> custom transport protocol in some specific environments, but it’s hard to
> do better than TCP in general.
>
> If you go down this path it’s a good idea to start the transfer with a
> header (including, at a minimum, the expected length) and end the transfer
> with a checksum.
>
> IMPORTANT: You need an end-to-end checksum because, when transferring
> /large/ amounts of data, the probability of an error not being detected by
> the TCP checksum starts to rise.
>
> The header will also allow you to support resumable transfers, which is
> always a good idea on iOS.
>
> The specific API you use for this doesn’t really matter than much.  If you
> had a minimum deployment target of iOS 12 I’d recommend `NWConnection` but,
> as you have to support older systems, using `NSStream` is fine.
>
> If you have multiple files to transfer then things get substantially more
> complex.  Ideally you’d want to transfer all the files over the same TCP
> connection.  The thing you want to avoid is an archive-transfer-unarchive
> approach, because the time taken for the [un]archiving could be
> significant.  That means the sender needs to stream off the file system and
> on to the network, and the receiver needs to do the reverse.  This isn’t
> too hard but the devil is in the details.  For example, supporting
> resumable transfers with multiple files is going to be tricky.
>
> You could probably find an industry-standard protocol that meets your
> needs, but that’s not always a win.  A lot of the time standard protocols
> tend to be more complex than necessary, and they’re only an advantage if
> you can find a library that implements the protocol, and that brings its
> own complexities.
>
> Share and Enjoy
> --
> Quinn "The Eskimo!"
> Apple Developer Relations, Developer Technical Support, Core OS/Hardware
>
>
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Re: I need some feedback

[Howard Shere]

We can’t entirely stream from the files because we need to encrypt the data.

Any thoughts on using multiple threads rather than one? Or using the GPU to 
encrypt/decrypt the data?

I lean towards using a single thread unless the performance becomes limited by 
the encryption/decryption work, then multiple threads might help...


On Jan 10, 2019, at 9:58 AM, Quinn The Eskimo! 
mailto:eski...@apple.com>> wrote:



On 10 Jan 2019, at 15:42, Howard Shere 
mailto:howard.sh...@synchronoss.com>> wrote:

Lots of files.

That’s likely to be the most interesting part of this.  Transferring a single 
large file over Wi-Fi is pretty straightforward: Open a TCP connection and pour 
bytes down it.  That’ll be fast and work well in a wide variety of network 
environments.  You may be able to do better with a custom transport protocol in 
some specific environments, but it’s hard to do better than TCP in general.

If you go down this path it’s a good idea to start the transfer with a header 
(including, at a minimum, the expected length) and end the transfer with a 
checksum.

IMPORTANT: You need an end-to-end checksum because, when transferring /large/ 
amounts of data, the probability of an error not being detected by the TCP 
checksum starts to rise.

The header will also allow you to support resumable transfers, which is always 
a good idea on iOS.

The specific API you use for this doesn’t really matter than much.  If you had 
a minimum deployment target of iOS 12 I’d recommend `NWConnection` but, as you 
have to support older systems, using `NSStream` is fine.

If you have multiple files to transfer then things get substantially more 
complex.  Ideally you’d want to transfer all the files over the same TCP 
connection.  The thing you want to avoid is an archive-transfer-unarchive 
approach, because the time taken for the [un]archiving could be significant.  
That means the sender needs to stream off the file system and on to the 
network, and the receiver needs to do the reverse.  This isn’t too hard but the 
devil is in the details.  For example, supporting resumable transfers with 
multiple files is going to be tricky.

You could probably find an industry-standard protocol that meets your needs, 
but that’s not always a win.  A lot of the time standard protocols tend to be 
more complex than necessary, and they’re only an advantage if you can find a 
library that implements the protocol, and that brings its own complexities.

Share and Enjoy
--
Quinn "The Eskimo!"
Apple Developer Relations, Developer Technical Support, Core OS/Hardware


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Re: I need some feedback

[Quinn "The Eskimo!"]

On 10 Jan 2019, at 15:42, Howard Shere  wrote:

> Lots of files.

That’s likely to be the most interesting part of this.  Transferring a single 
large file over Wi-Fi is pretty straightforward: Open a TCP connection and pour 
bytes down it.  That’ll be fast and work well in a wide variety of network 
environments.  You may be able to do better with a custom transport protocol in 
some specific environments, but it’s hard to do better than TCP in general.

If you go down this path it’s a good idea to start the transfer with a header 
(including, at a minimum, the expected length) and end the transfer with a 
checksum.

IMPORTANT: You need an end-to-end checksum because, when transferring /large/ 
amounts of data, the probability of an error not being detected by the TCP 
checksum starts to rise.

The header will also allow you to support resumable transfers, which is always 
a good idea on iOS.

The specific API you use for this doesn’t really matter than much.  If you had 
a minimum deployment target of iOS 12 I’d recommend `NWConnection` but, as you 
have to support older systems, using `NSStream` is fine.

If you have multiple files to transfer then things get substantially more 
complex.  Ideally you’d want to transfer all the files over the same TCP 
connection.  The thing you want to avoid is an archive-transfer-unarchive 
approach, because the time taken for the [un]archiving could be significant.  
That means the sender needs to stream off the file system and on to the 
network, and the receiver needs to do the reverse.  This isn’t too hard but the 
devil is in the details.  For example, supporting resumable transfers with 
multiple files is going to be tricky.

You could probably find an industry-standard protocol that meets your needs, 
but that’s not always a win.  A lot of the time standard protocols tend to be 
more complex than necessary, and they’re only an advantage if you can find a 
library that implements the protocol, and that brings its own complexities.

Share and Enjoy
--
Quinn "The Eskimo!"
Apple Developer Relations, Developer Technical Support, Core OS/Hardware


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Re: I need some feedback

[Howard Shere]

Over wifi, but it needs to work over very busy wifi.


On Jan 10, 2019, at 9:39 AM, Quinn The Eskimo! 
mailto:eski...@apple.com>> wrote:

CAUTION: This email originated from outside of Synchronoss.


On 10 Jan 2019, at 14:48, Howard Shere 
mailto:howard.sh...@synchronoss.com>> wrote:

I am interested in finding the fastest possible way to transfer large amounts 
of data between 2 iOS devices.

Also, what does the connectivity look like?  On the same Wi-Fi?  Both on the 
Internet?

Share and Enjoy
--
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Apple Developer Relations, Developer Technical Support, Core OS/Hardware


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Re: I need some feedback

[Quinn "The Eskimo!"]

On 10 Jan 2019, at 15:40, Howard Shere  wrote:

> Primarily images and videos.

Just one file?  Or lots of files?

Share and Enjoy
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Re: I need some feedback

[Howard Shere]

Primarily images and videos. Multiple GBs of data.

iOS 10 and later but older versions of iOS if it doesn’t add to the 
development...


On Jan 10, 2019, at 9:38 AM, Quinn The Eskimo! 
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On 10 Jan 2019, at 14:48, Howard Shere 
mailto:howard.sh...@synchronoss.com>> wrote:

amounts of data

Define large?  I’m not look for an exact number, just an expected order of 
magnitude.

Also, what’s you minimum deployment target?

Share and Enjoy
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Re: I need some feedback

[Quinn "The Eskimo!"]

On 10 Jan 2019, at 14:48, Howard Shere  wrote:

> I am interested in finding the fastest possible way to transfer large amounts 
> of data between 2 iOS devices.

Also, what does the connectivity look like?  On the same Wi-Fi?  Both on the 
Internet?

Share and Enjoy
--
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Apple Developer Relations, Developer Technical Support, Core OS/Hardware


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Re: I need some feedback

[Quinn "The Eskimo!"]

On 10 Jan 2019, at 14:48, Howard Shere  wrote:

> amounts of data

Define large?  I’m not look for an exact number, just an expected order of 
magnitude.

Also, what’s you minimum deployment target?

Share and Enjoy
--
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Apple Developer Relations, Developer Technical Support, Core OS/Hardware


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