Re: making Mailman CAN-SPAM compliant (was Re:[Mailman-Developers]Hashing member passwords in config.pck)
On Feb 17, 2005, at 1:55 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote: It's unfortunate that your developer can't adapt to the Mailman coding style. I work on tons of open source software, and of course lots of software at my job, and each project has its own coding guidelines. When in Rome... is the operative phrase here. Hopefully someone else will adapt the code to the style guide. Could someone who's seen it suggest how hard it'll be to adapt? It sounds like great stuff that I know my users would like... ___ Mailman-Developers mailing list Mailman-Developers@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: making Mailman CAN-SPAM compliant (was Re:[Mailman-Developers] Hashing member passwords in config.pck)
Hi, Sorry I'm responding late. We had presentations of master theses and I had to look after 3 out of 8 students for qualification. Moreover, 2 students are Chinese and difficulty in expressing themselves in Japanese. (Like myself in English :-( ) Adrian Bye wrote: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showfile=faq04.039.htp Yesterday I contributed patches which enables Mailman to have this exact functionality which we borrowed from Yahoo Groups. Yet I've seen no response from you yet, and only one half dismissive response from another mailman developer. I looked through your code and my feeling is not integrating this patch in 2.1.6. The Decorate.py file was considerably patched in CVS by myself and it will take time to adjust the submitted 2.1.5 patch. Also, there are some functions copied from other sources not importing nor inheriting. And, if you write code for immediate integration in the CVS, you should read http://barry.warsaw.us/software/STYLEGUIDE.txt and PEP 8, or at least read the existing code and learn the style. Mailman CAN be as good - and better - than Yahoo Groups. It doesn't have to take lots of money and resources. Just being willing to accept our code a piece at a time, and encouraging those who contribute will go a long way towards getting there. There may be some disagreement on the unsubscribe styff, but the header/footer handling only benefits everyone. I certainly hope that the mailman team will be responsive, and accept these patches and integrate them into the codebase. From my side we'll do whatever it takes to make that happen. Just tell us what we have to do. I think the patch should be available in the SF tracker and tested by users who want the functionality. Number of unofficial patches are living like this. It took two years for my first patch (subject prefix numbering) to be integrated in the CVS. ;-) -- Tokio Kikuchi, tkikuchi@ is.kochi-u.ac.jp http://weather.is.kochi-u.ac.jp/ ___ Mailman-Developers mailing list Mailman-Developers@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: making Mailman CAN-SPAM compliant (was Re:[Mailman-Developers] Hashing member passwords in config.pck)
On Thu, 2005-02-17 at 09:33, Tokio Kikuchi wrote: I looked through your code and my feeling is not integrating this patch in 2.1.6. We need to put a freeze on new features for 2.1.6. In fact, I think we should freeze all checkins except show-stopping bug fixes. I'd like to take between now and the end of February for testing. I'll spin a beta4 today and upload it to SF. In the future, Tokio will also be able to do SF file releases (although unfortunately, he won't be able to update the web sites). I plan on installing the current 2.1.6 on my various sites and I hope others can do the same thing to help test 2.1.6 in order to get an end-of-February release. -Barry signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ Mailman-Developers mailing list Mailman-Developers@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: making Mailman CAN-SPAM compliant (was Re:[Mailman-Developers] Hashing member passwords in config.pck)
On Thu, 2005-02-17 at 12:15, Barry Warsaw wrote: We need to put a freeze on new features for 2.1.6. In fact, I think we should freeze all checkins except show-stopping bug fixes. I'd like to take between now and the end of February for testing. Oh yes, and for all i18n champions to finish updating their translations for this release! -Barry signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ Mailman-Developers mailing list Mailman-Developers@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: making Mailman CAN-SPAM compliant (was Re:[Mailman-Developers] Hashing member passwords in config.pck)
On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 12:15:44 -0500, Barry Warsaw [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip] I plan on installing the current 2.1.6 on my various sites and I hope others can do the same thing to help test 2.1.6 in order to get an end-of-February release. I'm willing to install the pending beta 4 if it's feature-frozen and there are no significant known bugs (unknown bugs are OK ;). The feature shift between betas has been a little disconcerting. Bryan ___ Mailman-Developers mailing list Mailman-Developers@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
RE: making Mailman CAN-SPAM compliant (was Re:[Mailman-Developers]Hashing member passwords in config.pck)
We need to put a freeze on new features for 2.1.6. In fact, I think we should freeze all checkins except show-stopping bug fixes. I'd like to take between now and the end of February for testing. And, I just talked with my developer, and he got quite upset about the idea of fixing his code to conform to your coding style. So I guess that won't be possible for now. I certainly understand why you have coding guidelines, I agree they are important. I would have happily paid my developer to bring his code in line with your standards. I'm disappointed; we put quite a lot of work in to get this working right, and the work we've done fits very smoothly into the our mailman installation (from an administrator perspective). I've updated the wiki page here: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showfile=faq04.039.htp Hopefully someone in the future can see what we've done and implement this properly for everyone to use. Adrian ___ Mailman-Developers mailing list Mailman-Developers@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
RE: making Mailman CAN-SPAM compliant (was Re:[Mailman-Developers]Hashing member passwords in config.pck)
On Thu, 2005-02-17 at 13:22, Adrian Bye wrote: And, I just talked with my developer, and he got quite upset about the idea of fixing his code to conform to your coding style. So I guess that won't be possible for now. I certainly understand why you have coding guidelines, I agree they are important. I would have happily paid my developer to bring his code in line with your standards. Sorry, but that's non-negotiable. I know that you understand, but for the record, I'm not just stroking my ego. Coding standards are critical for long term maintenance. Without a standard, the readability of the code goes to hell and code is read orders of magnitude more often than it's written. Adhering to the guidelines (hobgoblins notwithstanding) is our responsibility to those that come after us. It's unfortunate that your developer can't adapt to the Mailman coding style. I work on tons of open source software, and of course lots of software at my job, and each project has its own coding guidelines. When in Rome... is the operative phrase here. Hopefully someone else will adapt the code to the style guide. -Barry signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ Mailman-Developers mailing list Mailman-Developers@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: making Mailman CAN-SPAM compliant (was Re:[Mailman-Developers]Hashing member passwords in config.pck)
Perhaps I missed this thread, but what standards are there? Link to doc? Barry Warsaw wrote: On Thu, 2005-02-17 at 13:22, Adrian Bye wrote: And, I just talked with my developer, and he got quite upset about the idea of fixing his code to conform to your coding style. So I guess that won't be possible for now. I certainly understand why you have coding guidelines, I agree they are important. I would have happily paid my developer to bring his code in line with your standards. Sorry, but that's non-negotiable. I know that you understand, but for the record, I'm not just stroking my ego. Coding standards are critical for long term maintenance. Without a standard, the readability of the code goes to hell and code is read orders of magnitude more often than it's written. Adhering to the guidelines (hobgoblins notwithstanding) is our responsibility to those that come after us. It's unfortunate that your developer can't adapt to the Mailman coding style. I work on tons of open source software, and of course lots of software at my job, and each project has its own coding guidelines. When in Rome... is the operative phrase here. Hopefully someone else will adapt the code to the style guide. -Barry ___ Mailman-Developers mailing list Mailman-Developers@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/bob%40nleaudio.com Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp ___ Mailman-Developers mailing list Mailman-Developers@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: making Mailman CAN-SPAM compliant (was Re:[Mailman-Developers]Hashing member passwords in config.pck)
On Thu, 2005-02-17 at 14:54, Bob [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Perhaps I missed this thread, but what standards are there? Link to doc? http://barry.warsaw.us/software/STYLEGUIDE.txt -Barry signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ Mailman-Developers mailing list Mailman-Developers@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: making Mailman CAN-SPAM compliant (was Re:[Mailman-Developers] Hashing member passwords in config.pck)
Dear friends, I had *no idea* my post was going to generate this level of response. Thank you all. I'm simply fascinated by the dynamics in the group, inspired by your generosity, and eager to help out in any way I can. Let me make a few brief points, then forward another message I just sent to another list which is inspired by this discussion and by a number of other ongoing threads that seem to be coming together right now and make for what I think is a tremendous opportunity for those of us interested in this yahoogroups type functionality. 1) I am not a coder. I am very into open source software, though, and have been for a long time. I have installed many open source tools on the Kabissa server over the years which are used very actively by people in Africa working for nonprofits. This includes Mailman, phpbb, horde and more. I am able to hack around in existing scripts and follow instructions to do limited customization. I've had Mailman running on Kabissa for over four years now, and have many thousands of posts in list archives and tens of thousands of subscribers participating in lists hosted on Kabissa. 2) I am currently dedicated to taking all of these disparate tools that people are making great use of on Kabissa, and integrating them into a single community Web site so that they can use them better. I am therefore interested in Mambo CMS (http://www.mamboserver.com) and am eager to encourage any efforts that will enable me to take existing Kabissa services (like Mailman) and integrate them into Mambo components (existing or new). 3) This is the background to my post about making Mailman CAN-SPAM compliant. It helps to know that there are developers interested in addressing usability issues and also to have confirmed that there is a general understanding that Mailman can be improved. 4) As Brad mentioned, he is now volunteering at Kabissa on mailman administration.. which is great! With his involvement, there are some small contributions Kabissa can make as relates to helping others to make Mailman work well in a plesk/qmail setup like ours, and which I'd like to see incorporated in future versions of Plesk. However, I think Kabissa may be able to help more by drumming up interest in Mailman, by partnering with other likeminded organizations seeking the same functionality like Bellanet, and perhaps by raising funds to pay for the development of some key features that Kabissa needs particularly urgently. Best wishes, Tobias On Feb 17, 2005, at 9:33 AM, Tokio Kikuchi wrote: Hi, Sorry I'm responding late. We had presentations of master theses and I had to look after 3 out of 8 students for qualification. Moreover, 2 students are Chinese and difficulty in expressing themselves in Japanese. (Like myself in English :-( ) Adrian Bye wrote: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showfile=faq04.039.htp Yesterday I contributed patches which enables Mailman to have this exact functionality which we borrowed from Yahoo Groups. Yet I've seen no response from you yet, and only one half dismissive response from another mailman developer. I looked through your code and my feeling is not integrating this patch in 2.1.6. The Decorate.py file was considerably patched in CVS by myself and it will take time to adjust the submitted 2.1.5 patch. Also, there are some functions copied from other sources not importing nor inheriting. And, if you write code for immediate integration in the CVS, you should read http://barry.warsaw.us/software/STYLEGUIDE.txt and PEP 8, or at least read the existing code and learn the style. Mailman CAN be as good - and better - than Yahoo Groups. It doesn't have to take lots of money and resources. Just being willing to accept our code a piece at a time, and encouraging those who contribute will go a long way towards getting there. There may be some disagreement on the unsubscribe styff, but the header/footer handling only benefits everyone. I certainly hope that the mailman team will be responsive, and accept these patches and integrate them into the codebase. From my side we'll do whatever it takes to make that happen. Just tell us what we have to do. I think the patch should be available in the SF tracker and tested by users who want the functionality. Number of unofficial patches are living like this. It took two years for my first patch (subject prefix numbering) to be integrated in the CVS. ;-) -- Tokio Kikuchi, tkikuchi@ is.kochi-u.ac.jp http://weather.is.kochi-u.ac.jp/ -- Tobias Eigen Executive Director Kabissa - Space for Change in Africa http://www.kabissa.org * Kabissa's vision is for a socially, economically, politically, and environmentally vibrant Africa, supported by a strong network of effective civil society organizations. * ___ Mailman-Developers mailing list Mailman-Developers@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers
Re: making Mailman CAN-SPAM compliant (was Re: [Mailman-Developers] Hashing member passwords in config.pck)
At 8:54 AM -0500 2005-02-16, Tobias Eigen wrote: I know all this - and I know you know it, and I know all Mailman geeks like us get it. The problem is with regular, every day people who are expecting (and really can be expected to expect) Yahoogroups type interfaces. All I can say is that Mailman is a non-profit open source project, run by a group of people in whatever spare time they can manage to scrape together. The Linux folks haven't cracked the ease-of-use aspects of their OS compared to Microsoft, not even for the companies that are spending large quantities of money to try to make that happen. We're a much, much smaller group, and although this is also a smaller target, I don't see us being likely to succeed in this area where the Linux folks have not. If someone wanted to pay large sums of money to make an open source Yahoo! Groups-beating package, and pay people to work on that as their full-time job, we might be able to change this situation -- in time. If people really need those kinds of features today, then they should be using Yahoo! Groups and not Mailman. In the meanwhile, we do what we can, and we accept what donations of time, code, or money that is offered to us. Has anybody considered having a usability expert look at the Mailman interfaces and redesign them so they make more sense from a user's point of view? I don't know, but I would doubt it. For the official story, you'd have to ask Barry. How easy is it to customize these pages? Are they perchance templatable? The template facilities within Mailman are fairly limited, but I have not looked into whether they attempt to address these areas. You can pretty much do all of that today. Go to the listinfo page and log in with your e-mail address and password. Perhaps, but you can't do it easily. The miracle of a talking dog is not how well it speaks or the fact that it always uses proper grammar, but that it speaks at all. Perhaps with your help, we can help that dog speak a little better. -- Brad Knowles, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 SAGE member since 1995. See http://www.sage.org/ for more info. ___ Mailman-Developers mailing list Mailman-Developers@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
RE: making Mailman CAN-SPAM compliant (was Re:[Mailman-Developers] Hashing member passwords in config.pck)
All I can say is that Mailman is a non-profit open source project, run by a group of people in whatever spare time they can manage to scrape together. The Linux folks haven't cracked the ease-of-use aspects of their OS compared to Microsoft, not even for the companies that are spending large quantities of money to try to make that happen. We're a much, much smaller group, and although this is also a smaller target, I don't see us being likely to succeed in this area where the Linux folks have not. If someone wanted to pay large sums of money to make an open source Yahoo! Groups-beating package, and pay people to work on that as their full-time job, we might be able to change this situation -- in time. Brad, We've previously had conversations about some Yahoo groups functionality which you said wasn't possible: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showfile=faq04.039.htp Yesterday I contributed patches which enables Mailman to have this exact functionality which we borrowed from Yahoo Groups. Yet I've seen no response from you yet, and only one half dismissive response from another mailman developer. Mailman CAN be as good - and better - than Yahoo Groups. It doesn't have to take lots of money and resources. Just being willing to accept our code a piece at a time, and encouraging those who contribute will go a long way towards getting there. There may be some disagreement on the unsubscribe styff, but the header/footer handling only benefits everyone. I certainly hope that the mailman team will be responsive, and accept these patches and integrate them into the codebase. From my side we'll do whatever it takes to make that happen. Just tell us what we have to do. Adrian ___ Mailman-Developers mailing list Mailman-Developers@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: making Mailman CAN-SPAM compliant (was Re:[Mailman-Developers] Hashing member passwords in config.pck)
Adrian Bye wrote: If someone wanted to pay large sums of money to make an open source Yahoo! Groups-beating package, and pay people to work on that as their full-time job, we might be able to change this situation -- in time. We've previously had conversations about some Yahoo groups functionality which you said wasn't possible: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showfile=faq04.039.htp Yesterday I contributed patches which enables Mailman to have this exact functionality which we borrowed from Yahoo Groups. Yet I've seen no response from you yet, and only one half dismissive response from another mailman developer. Sometimes the key developers are busy on other things (the recent security issues obviously screwed up their work schedules) and patches aren't immediately evaluated. You should give them more than just one day before you determine if your patch is appreciated and accepted etc. Mailman CAN be as good - and better - than Yahoo Groups. It doesn't have to take lots of money and resources. Just being willing to accept our code a piece at a time, and encouraging those who contribute will go a long way towards getting there. There may be some disagreement on the unsubscribe styff, but the header/footer handling only benefits everyone. I certainly hope that the mailman team will be responsive, and accept these patches and integrate them into the codebase. From my side we'll do whatever it takes to make that happen. Just tell us what we have to do. Right now, I would suggest being patient. I suggest you give it a week for Barry and the other key developers to to find the time to start looking at new code after they dig out from their present schedule overload caused by the recent security incident. I don't know what Brad's key focus is on this list, but I can share with you that *I* am not a developer in that I don't write code. My role here is that I help in a product management type role, helping prioritize, helping define, helping with documentation (FAQ entries etc.), enter feature requests, etc. And I help with the day-to-day management of the mailman -users and -dev mailing lists so that the key developers can focus their time on code instead of running the lists. Sometimes when we have list management related email threads it takes the key developers more than a week to chime in on something too jc ___ Mailman-Developers mailing list Mailman-Developers@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: making Mailman CAN-SPAM compliant (was Re: [Mailman-Developers] Hashing member passwords in config.pck)
On Wed, 2005-02-16 at 08:54, Tobias Eigen wrote: It's really weird to have to log in multiple times to access multiple list settings, especially if it's the same password being used everywhere. It's likewise weird to then be able to make global changes from one list's preferences page. There's no question that this is a major usability issue, but it's a result of an ancient architectural decision that is difficult to fix and not backwards compatible. Has anybody considered having a usability expert look at the Mailman interfaces and redesign them so they make more sense from a user's point of view? How easy is it to customize these pages? Are they perchance templatable? Not easily. One of the goals of MM3 is to make the u/i fully templated. I certainly make no claims to web u/i artistry, and there have been a few attempts over the years to improve things, but no one with the expertise has stepped forward and owned the task of doing this. I'd welcome it though. And we're only talking about the frontend (listinfo interface) here now, not even the backend (admin interface) for list owners. The backend is so incredibly complex and overwhelming that it has become a serious stumbling block for us in offering a service that people will actually use. I agree. Somehow we need to make the admin interface much simpler, without sacrificing the important features that (some) people will need. It's a challenge. I actually think that list styles will help a lot here. For Kabissa these interfaces have to be as easy to use as Yahoo Groups or Google (has anyone tried Google's groups? They are quite nifty actually). We have people coming online from all over Africa who pay dearly for every precious minute they spend online. I hear you. -Barry signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ Mailman-Developers mailing list Mailman-Developers@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: making Mailman CAN-SPAM compliant (was Re: [Mailman-Developers] Hashing member passwords in config.pck)
Tobias Eigen wrote: What I envision having in my Mailman/Mambo system is a single user database with one password per username for all services. Users can then go to a simple preferences page on Mambo and do basic things like change their email address or password, tick a box to opt in/out of various mailings, and in particular opt to receive no mail at all. Hello Tobias, I have been meaning to respond to several of your emails lately, but free time has been scarce. We seem to have the same goal, and many people are looking for the same thing, too -- a Yahoogroups-ish solution. I looked at Mailman for this for quite a while before coming to the realization that it just wasn't going to happen easily. There are simply too many problems with MM 2.x: one-to-one relationships between members and lists, awkward pickle file storage, limited customization capabilities and much more. To me, radical changes are required in the mailing list software. And I believe this needs to happen in the Mailman 3 project due to the considerable design changes required. Barry is already looking at significant changes for MM3 such as SQL-based storage (this in itself is huge for our purposes), so I would suggest that efforts should be spent there. I'd like to invite you to work with my organization, Bellanet, in any way possible. We are also in the international development sector and have been wanting to create an open source version of our Dgroups product (see www.dgroups.org) using Mailman and a CMS. In our case we were favoring Xaraya. But MM 2.x just wasn't going to cut it. We are looking at putting $ into MM3, and, as it turns out, we want some African developer involvement. Please contact me off-list if you're interested in brainstorming. I really want to help move MM3 development forward -- with money and/or people -- so that creating a YahooGroups tool, using your favorite CMS as a frontend, would be a cinch. BARRY: would now be a good time to re-energize discussions on the MM3 development list? What is your time like? And are there any plans for a MM3 sprint? I can send people. - Kevin ___ Mailman-Developers mailing list Mailman-Developers@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: making Mailman CAN-SPAM compliant (was Re:[Mailman-Developers] Hashing member passwords in config.pck)
On Wed, 2005-02-16 at 11:13, JC Dill wrote: Right now, I would suggest being patient. I suggest you give it a week for Barry and the other key developers to to find the time to start looking at new code after they dig out from their present schedule overload caused by the recent security incident. Right now, I am focusing what spare time I have on getting 2.1.6 out the door. Tokio has been a lifesaver for this release, and I think he's primarily focused on the same thing. Once 2.1.6 is out, I would like to have a longer discussion on where we go next. I don't know what Brad's key focus is on this list, but I can share with you that *I* am not a developer in that I don't write code. My role here is that I help in a product management type role, helping prioritize, helping define, helping with documentation (FAQ entries etc.), enter feature requests, etc. And I help with the day-to-day management of the mailman -users and -dev mailing lists so that the key developers can focus their time on code instead of running the lists. Sometimes when we have list management related email threads it takes the key developers more than a week to chime in on something too Trust me, work like this is greatly appreciated. Just so everyone knows, you don't have to be writing code to help move the Mailman project out. JC, Brad, Chuq, Terri, and others have been an incredible help. -Barry signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ Mailman-Developers mailing list Mailman-Developers@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
RE: making Mailman CAN-SPAM compliant (was Re:[Mailman-Developers] Hashing member passwords in config.pck)
At 11:28 AM -0400 2005-02-16, Adrian Bye wrote: We've previously had conversations about some Yahoo groups functionality which you said wasn't possible: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showfile=faq04.039.htp Indeed, we have. Yesterday I contributed patches which enables Mailman to have this exact functionality which we borrowed from Yahoo Groups. Yet I've seen no response from you yet, and only one half dismissive response from another mailman developer. I've been waiting to see what Barry, Tokio, or one of the other core developers think of these patches. Keep in mind that they are exceptionally busy people, and it may take a long time for them to be able to take a look at them. I have not yet had a chance to look at them myself. I've been focused on putting together my own little script to assist in the day-to-day site administration tasks for running a Mailman mailing list server, one of the few areas where I can see that Mailman can use improvement, and where my previous experience and limited scripting skills can be put to good use in helping to make this situation better. Well, at least better for me, and then contribute the patch to SourceForge so that others can take a look at it and see if it's useful for them. My hope is that this might be able to be incorporated into future versions of Mailman as well. So, you take me to task for not having yet posted an exhaustive analysis of your patch, but I don't see a comment from you on my script. Can we call it even? Mailman CAN be as good - and better - than Yahoo Groups. It doesn't have to take lots of money and resources. Just being willing to accept our code a piece at a time, and encouraging those who contribute will go a long way towards getting there. You are right that Mailman can be better than Yahoo!Groups. I don't think you're going to make Mailman better than Yahoo!Groups in every respect, at least not without spending a lot of money. But we can continue to take steps towards that goal. That said, we do gladly accept contributions, but since this is a non-profit open source project which is maintained in what little spare time that people have, you have to accept that it may take a while for the contributions to be reviewed and analyzed by the appropriate people. As for Tobias' contributions to Mailman, he has already given us quite a lot, and has a great deal more that has been done for his own site and which I believe he is happy to contribute to the project. I look forward to continuing to work with him in the future. However, just because I've agreed to work with him in doing Mailman administration for his site and I will try to do what I can to help him get better integration between Mailman and an amazingly wide variety of other projects, and hopefully be able to bring this experience back to the Mailman project, that doesn't necessarily mean that I will always agree with him 100% -- either in private or public. You should not make any assumptions about general attitudes towards all possible future contributions from the community or third parties, based on a single response. In this particular matter, I was talking about the current capabilities of Mailman, not where we hope to ultimately be able to take it. There may be some disagreement on the unsubscribe styff, but the header/footer handling only benefits everyone. I certainly hope that the mailman team will be responsive, and accept these patches and integrate them into the codebase. From my side we'll do whatever it takes to make that happen. Just tell us what we have to do. That's great news! However, we do ask that you give the core developers a little time to look over your contribution and make their analysis. -- Brad Knowles, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 SAGE member since 1995. See http://www.sage.org/ for more info. ___ Mailman-Developers mailing list Mailman-Developers@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: making Mailman CAN-SPAM compliant (was Re:[Mailman-Developers] Hashing member passwords in config.pck)
At 8:13 AM -0800 2005-02-16, JC Dill wrote: I don't know what Brad's key focus is on this list, but I can share with you that *I* am not a developer in that I don't write code. I'm not a developer, either. I can do a little bit of hacking together scripts, but that's about it. My role here is that I help in a product management type role, helping prioritize, helping define, helping with documentation (FAQ entries etc.), enter feature requests, etc. And I help with the day-to-day management of the mailman -users and -dev mailing lists so that the key developers can focus their time on code instead of running the lists. Pretty much the same for me, although I also have some additional access to the servers so that I can help monitor and administer the mail system as a whole, etc I try to do all the little things I can, so that Barry and the core developers can focus their attention on the big things that I have no hope of ever being able to touch. For the most part, I try to follow the lead of people like Barry, Chuq, JC, and the others who have been here longer than I have. -- Brad Knowles, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 SAGE member since 1995. See http://www.sage.org/ for more info. ___ Mailman-Developers mailing list Mailman-Developers@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: making Mailman CAN-SPAM compliant (was Re: [Mailman-Developers] Hashing member passwords in config.pck)
On Wed, 2005-02-16 at 11:42, Kevin McCann wrote: BARRY: would now be a good time to re-energize discussions on the MM3 development list? What is your time like? And are there any plans for a MM3 sprint? I can send people. Yes, let's start things back up on mailman3-dev. I definitely plan on having a MM3 sprint at Pycon this year and if we can get a critical mass of developers, I think we can make some significant progress. Let's take further discussion to that list. -Barry signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ Mailman-Developers mailing list Mailman-Developers@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
RE: making Mailman CAN-SPAM compliant (was Re:[Mailman-Developers]Hashing member passwords in config.pck)
Adrian Bye wrote: Yesterday I contributed patches which enables Mailman to have this exact functionality which we borrowed from Yahoo Groups. Yet I've seen no response from you yet, and only one half dismissive response from another mailman developer. Since mine was to only reply to your post, I assume it is that to which you refer. I didn't intend to be dismissive. I'm sorry it came across that way. In fact, I specifically wrote I am not trying to denegrate the work you've done or your contribution back to the Mailman project. I think this is a fine example of how open source works. While I did add I'm only trying to point out that there can be a dark side to this feature., I didn't intend that to mean that it shouldn't be an option for those who might want it. Also, while I may be prolific on the Mailman-Users list, for the record I have no official connection to the Mailman project. I'm just another Mailman administrator with a lot of software experience and evidently, way too much time on his hands. I wouldn't describe myself as a mailman developer, just an interested party trying to learn and contribute back. -- Mark Sapiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan ___ Mailman-Developers mailing list Mailman-Developers@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: making Mailman CAN-SPAM compliant (was Re:[Mailman-Developers] Hashing member passwords in config.pck)
On Feb 16, 2005, at 8:45 AM, Brad Knowles wrote: I try to do all the little things I can, so that Barry and the core developers can focus their attention on the big things that I have no hope of ever being able to touch. For the most part, I try to follow the lead of people like Barry, Chuq, JC, and the others who have been here longer than I have. It's been a crazy year for everyone on the mailman team -- I know Barry's done what he can, but in the end, he has to earn a paycheck and have a life, and Mailman simply can't be considered more important than either of those. I've been the same way, working on a project that's gotten hugely popular at work and taken up a huge amount of time and energy -- 50 and 60 hour weeks have been common the last year as we try to not choke on success, and I've had other non-work complications sucking up time and energy. To give you an idea how bad it's been -- a server upgrade I'd planned for last March finally is happening, where last night I migrated my blog to a new environment. Having a project like that slip almost a year (and that was a REVISED date. sigh) is scary in a way, but it gives you an idea just how little my spare time and my energy to do things have coincided. Once this server upgrade is complete, I'll be able to finally get started on a couple of projects I announced a couple of years ago and still want to see happen, along with getting more involved with Mailman again. The last few months, I sort of feel all I've accomplished is trying to shield Barry from having to deal with list logistics and the like, and the project needs more than that I think its safe to say that it's not lack of interest or intent here with any of us, but a lack of free time. And time, of course is one commodity you can't do much about some times. ___ Mailman-Developers mailing list Mailman-Developers@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: making Mailman CAN-SPAM compliant (was Re:[Mailman-Developers] Hashing member passwords in config.pck)
On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 10:32:58 -0800, Chuq Von Rospach [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip] I think its safe to say that it's not lack of interest or intent here with any of us, but a lack of free time. And time, of course is one commodity you can't do much about some times. Ditto. My daughter just turned two; between new family and the day job and my own business, I'm looking at a decision between sleep or participating with the project (or any other OSS project). :/ Bryan ___ Mailman-Developers mailing list Mailman-Developers@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
