[Mailman-Users] Re: Removal of Line Breaks in Replies to Digest Messages

2020-11-19 Thread Michael Reeder LCPC -- Hygeia Regular 

Steve,

Thank you for this info on use of MIME digests.  I hope to keep looking 
into this and put together a short etiquette and user's guide for 
interested list members.


-- Michael

*Michael Reeder, LCPC
*
*Hygeia Counseling Services : Baltimore / Mt. Washington Village location*
*410-205-2419 / michael(at)hygeiacounseling.com*
*http://www.hygeiacounseling.com - main website.
*

On 11/19/2020 1:30 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

Michael,

I wrote a long reply, only to discover that Mark had written it first
and better and posted it. :-)  This part might be of some use if at
least some of your users have sufficiently capable clients.

Michael Reeder LCPC -- Hygeia Regular writes:

  > On 11/17/2020 9:21 PM, Michael Reeder LCPC -- Hygeia Regular wrote:
  > > Mark -- I very much appreciate your answer below.  I'll work on the
  > > (nearly impossible) task of training users to respond to digests
  > > properly and also explain to people that the Mailman list mgmt
  > > software can't control formatting screw-ups by email client programs.

I don't have a list of capable software off-hand (except that
essentially all clients implemented in Emacs are capable -- but you
probably don't want to wish that on your users  ;-).  However, here
are some features that help if present:

Bursting digests:
 Also called "exploding" or "expanding".  The digest message is
 broken up into individual messages, and threaded and sorted as
 usual for the client.  Possibly filtered, as well.
 Useful for people who want to (a) thread the messages in the
 digest with saved messages in a folder or inbox, or (b) save a few
 messages and discard the rest.  Suboptimal for "scan digest and
 discard it" workflows.
 Some clients (Outlook 2011) can do this as a filter, but don't
 seem to have an option to do it from the inbox summary display.
Digest-as-folder:
 The client treats the digest message as a folder (that's exactly
 what it is!) and threads and sorts the individual messages in that
 folder as usual.
 Optimal for scan-and-discard workflows.  Suboptimal if you want to
 thread messages in the folder against messages outside the folder.

Steve
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[Mailman-Users] Re: Removal of Line Breaks in Replies to Digest Messages

2020-11-18 Thread Mark Sapiro 
On 11/18/20 12:27 PM, Michael Reeder LCPC -- Hygeia Regular wrote:
> 
> "As far as whether the digest formatting is "messed up", I'd need to see
> an actual digest message to comment further. "-- Well, that's the
> thing.  I would send it to you, but when he sent me the "messed up"
> digest, it looked absolutely FINE on both my Android phone and in
> Thunderbird on Windows 10!!


To be definitively sure, you could subscribe two additional addresses to
the list, one receiving plain text digests and one receiving MIME
digests, and see what they get.


> *I guess my only question at this point would be -- is this common on
> Apple products?
> *


Yes. I get reports of some phone clients, Apple IOS clients in
particular, being problematic in various ways. If, as you say, the
digest looks fine on your Android phone and in Thunderbird on Windows
10, the issue is with the user's phone client and there's probably
nothing Mailman can do about it.

-- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
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[Mailman-Users] Re: Removal of Line Breaks in Replies to Digest Messages

2020-11-18 Thread Michael Reeder LCPC -- Hygeia Regular 

Chip,

Yup -- I'm going to have to hope that most of my users do not use 
threaded email displays.  I don't think they do.  I'll attempt education 
on only including the message being replied to from plain digests, and 
replying to specific messages in MIME digests, but yeah -- this will be 
a hopeless battle.


My subscription list consists of about 800 retirement age 
psychotherapists -- most are just not going to learn this!


Thanks,
Michael

*Michael Reeder, LCPC
*
*Hygeia Counseling Services : Baltimore / Mt. Washington Village location*
*410-205-2419 / michael(at)hygeiacounseling.com*
*http://www.hygeiacounseling.com - main website.
*

On 11/18/2020 12:23 PM, Chip Davis wrote:
As regards thread hijacking, there is an IETF 'In-Reply-To:' header 
 that keeps track of 
that, regardless the string in the 'Subject:' header. Without that, 
creating a threaded email display would be a nightmare.  This is one 
of the most constant (re-)training issues I have to address as a 
Mailman admin.  That, and the necessity of trimming quotes. :-/


-Chip-

On 11/18/2020 9:09 AM, Michael Reeder LCPC wrote:

Okay, upon reflection I think I figured out what happened here.  I
 replied to an existing thread but deleted the entirety of the
 message thread and changed the subject entirely.  I thought that
 started a new message thread but perhaps the list software 
registers

 that as a reply to an existing thread.  I organize my email client
 by date and not by thread so I would not see this. Apologizes to
 all if this is the case.
   On 11/17/2020 9:21 PM, Michael Reeder LCPC -- Hygeia Regular 
wrote:
    I agree with not hijacking threads...  What hijack? Looks 
to me

   like I started a new topic.  Right??


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[Mailman-Users] Re: Removal of Line Breaks in Replies to Digest Messages

2020-11-18 Thread Michael Reeder LCPC -- Hygeia Regular 

Mark,

Okay -- did not know about the "In Reply To" header. Thank you.

"The replacement of quote marks (") and apostrophes (') with question 
marks (?) is an issue with the mail client that creates the message. " 
-- Got it.  Thank you.  Looks like there is an issue with some Apple 
email clients (iPhone and Outlook for IOS).


"As far as whether the digest formatting is "messed up", I'd need to see 
an actual digest message to comment further. "-- Well, that's the 
thing.  I would send it to you, but when he sent me the "messed up" 
digest, it looked absolutely FINE on both my Android phone and in 
Thunderbird on Windows 10!!


*I guess my only question at this point would be -- is this common on 
Apple products?

*
Thanks,
Michael

*Michael Reeder, LCPC
*
*Hygeia Counseling Services : Baltimore / Mt. Washington Village location*
*410-205-2419 / michael(at)hygeiacounseling.com*
*http://www.hygeiacounseling.com - main website.
*

On 11/18/2020 10:15 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

On 11/17/20 9:21 PM, Michael Reeder LCPC -- Hygeia Regular wrote:

Okay, upon reflection I think I figured out what happened here.  I
replied to an existing thread but deleted the entirety of the message
thread and changed the subject entirely.  I thought that started a new
message thread but perhaps the list software registers that as a reply
to an existing thread.  I organize my email client by date and not by
thread so I would not see this.  Apologizes to all if this is the case.


When you reply to a message, your Mail client adds an In-Reply-To:
header in your post even if you change the Subject: and message body. It
is the In-Reply-To header that says this is a reply to a message in the
existing thread.



I'm told by my list subscriber the following:

a. He thinks that the Digest message formatting is messed-up as it
originally comes from the list, but he is not sure (reply messages might
be messing up the formatting).

b. He is using iPhone and Outlook for Apple email clients.

c. He is also experiencing quote marks (") and apostrophes (') being
turned into question marks (?) throughout the text of digest messages.

Is this mess a function of his Apple email clients, or a problem that
rests with the Mailman list management software?


The replacement of quote marks (") and apostrophes (') with question
marks (?) is an issue with the mail client that creates the message. The
issue is they aren't ascii quotes and apostrophes. The quotes are
unicode left and right double quotes and the apostrophes are unicode
right single quotes. These characters are not ascii so they are replaced
by question marks in an ascii plain text digest. They should render OK
in messages in a MIME format digest, but then the pnone client may not
do a reasonable job of rendering a MIME format digest.

As far as whether the digest formatting is "messed up", I'd need to see
an actual digest message to comment further.



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[Mailman-Users] Re: Removal of Line Breaks in Replies to Digest Messages

2020-11-18 Thread Chip Davis 
As regards thread hijacking, there is an IETF 'In-Reply-To:' header 
 that keeps track of 
that, regardless the string in the 'Subject:' header.  Without that, 
creating a threaded email display would be a nightmare.  This is one 
of the most constant (re-)training issues I have to address as a 
Mailman admin.  That, and the necessity of trimming quotes. :-/


-Chip-

On 11/18/2020 9:09 AM, Michael Reeder LCPC wrote:

Okay, upon reflection I think I figured out what happened here.  I
 replied to an existing thread but deleted the entirety of the
 message thread and changed the subject entirely.  I thought that
 started a new message thread but perhaps the list software registers
 that as a reply to an existing thread.  I organize my email client
 by date and not by thread so I would not see this.  Apologizes to
 all if this is the case.
   
On 11/17/2020 9:21 PM, Michael Reeder LCPC -- Hygeia Regular wrote:
 
   I agree with not hijacking threads...  What hijack?  Looks to me

   like I started a new topic.  Right??


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[Mailman-Users] Re: Removal of Line Breaks in Replies to Digest Messages

2020-11-18 Thread Mark Sapiro 
On 11/17/20 9:21 PM, Michael Reeder LCPC -- Hygeia Regular wrote:
> Okay, upon reflection I think I figured out what happened here.  I
> replied to an existing thread but deleted the entirety of the message
> thread and changed the subject entirely.  I thought that started a new
> message thread but perhaps the list software registers that as a reply
> to an existing thread.  I organize my email client by date and not by
> thread so I would not see this.  Apologizes to all if this is the case.


When you reply to a message, your Mail client adds an In-Reply-To:
header in your post even if you change the Subject: and message body. It
is the In-Reply-To header that says this is a reply to a message in the
existing thread.


> I'm told by my list subscriber the following:
> 
> a. He thinks that the Digest message formatting is messed-up as it
> originally comes from the list, but he is not sure (reply messages might
> be messing up the formatting).
> 
> b. He is using iPhone and Outlook for Apple email clients.
> 
> c. He is also experiencing quote marks (") and apostrophes (') being
> turned into question marks (?) throughout the text of digest messages.
> 
> Is this mess a function of his Apple email clients, or a problem that
> rests with the Mailman list management software?


The replacement of quote marks (") and apostrophes (') with question
marks (?) is an issue with the mail client that creates the message. The
issue is they aren't ascii quotes and apostrophes. The quotes are
unicode left and right double quotes and the apostrophes are unicode
right single quotes. These characters are not ascii so they are replaced
by question marks in an ascii plain text digest. They should render OK
in messages in a MIME format digest, but then the pnone client may not
do a reasonable job of rendering a MIME format digest.

As far as whether the digest formatting is "messed up", I'd need to see
an actual digest message to comment further.

-- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
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[Mailman-Users] Re: Removal of Line Breaks in Replies to Digest Messages

2020-11-17 Thread Mark Sapiro 
On 11/16/20 10:36 PM, Michael Reeder LCPC -- Hygeia Regular wrote:
> Hello All,


Please don't hijack threads. When you want to post a new topic, don't do
it by replying to another post, just compose a ney message to the list.


> I am running a listserv which was recently moved to GNU Mailman 2.1.23
> on a Dream Host server (I assume UNIX).  I am encountering the following
> problem:


Please see .


> Replies to Digest messages (both MIME and plain text) sometimes have
> line breaks stripped from them.  We have seen this so far with both a
> version of Microsoft Outlook and an email client program for an Android
> phone.  As far as I know, the digest messages themselves originally all
> look fine when sent from the listserv.
> 
> Anyone know if there is anything I can do about this?


Use a different mail client that doesn't do this. Otherwse, there's
nothing you can do to control what users mail clients do.


> Bonus Question:  I do not have command prompt access -- only admin panel
> access (listserv software is implemented through Dream Host). Anything I
> can do from the admin panel?  What would I ask Dream Host to change?


There is no change to the digests themselves that would mitigate this
issue without breaking the way the original digests render.

Further, people shouldn't be replying to a digest. For a MIME format
digest, they should open the individual message and reply to that. For
the plain digest, they should just copy/paste relevant context from the
digest into a new post to the list. Of course, training list members to
do that is probably not possible ...

-- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
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