Re: [mailop] Issues delivering to Hotmail addresses

[Benjamin BILLON]

Some thingS are, but solely complaining here is not going to help them solve 
their (various) issues.

> 452 4.5.3 Recipients belong to multiple regions ATTR38 
> [CO1NAM03FT062.eop-NAM03.prod.protection.outlook.com]
Given the reply, I'd say it's related to the fact they have distinct nodes / 
regions, and that's a big oopsie. 
For O365, although not convenient, I understand the principle of having 
multiple tenants. (Who wants to use a single, integrated collaborative system 
for all worldwide offices, anyway? Yes, it is said in a sarcastic way)
For Hotmail, which is by essence a "global" service, it would lead to this kind 
of issues indeed 

--
Benjamin

-Original Message-
From: mailop [mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org] On Behalf Of Charles McKean
Sent: Wednesday, 24 January, 2018 11:39
To: mailop@mailop.org
Subject: Re: [mailop] Issues delivering to Hotmail addresses

On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 9:41 PM, Joe Hamelin  wrote:
> It means they should have stuck to BSD and sendmail. ;)

Now somebody else will pop up and tell them to submit a ticket and they will 
reply that they have submitted 6 tickets and Microsoft isn't responding to them.

SOMETHING IS BADLY BROKEN OVER AT MICROSOFT, FOLKS.

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Re: [mailop] Issues delivering to Hotmail addresses

[Charles McKean]

On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 9:41 PM, Joe Hamelin  wrote:
> It means they should have stuck to BSD and sendmail. ;)

Now somebody else will pop up and tell them to submit a ticket and
they will reply that they have submitted 6 tickets and Microsoft isn't
responding to them.

SOMETHING IS BADLY BROKEN OVER AT MICROSOFT, FOLKS.

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Re: [mailop] Issues delivering to Hotmail addresses

[Joe Hamelin]

It means they should have stuck to BSD and sendmail. ;)

--
Joe Hamelin, W7COM, Tulalip, WA, +1 (360) 474-7474

On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 5:02 PM, King, Brad 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
>
>
> We are seeing temporary rejections from Hotmail with the following error:
>
>
> 452 4.5.3 Recipients belong to multiple regions ATTR38 [
> CO1NAM03FT062.eop-NAM03.prod.protection.outlook.com]
>
>
>
> Does anyone know what this means? This particular sample had 3 Hotmail
> recipients.
>
>
>
> Rgs,
>
>
>
> Brad
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
> mailop mailing list
> mailop@mailop.org
> https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
>
>
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[mailop] Issues delivering to Hotmail addresses

[King, Brad]

Hi,

We are seeing temporary rejections from Hotmail with the following error:

452 4.5.3 Recipients belong to multiple regions ATTR38 
[CO1NAM03FT062.eop-NAM03.prod.protection.outlook.com]

Does anyone know what this means? This particular sample had 3 Hotmail 
recipients.

Rgs,

Brad


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Re: [mailop] Weird problems with mitigation at Hotmail/Outlook

[Michael Wise via mailop]

It is being actively discussed internally.
That’s all I can say at this point.

Aloha,
Michael.
--
Michael J Wise
Microsoft Corporation| Spam Analysis
"Your Spam Specimen Has Been Processed."
Got the Junk Mail Reporting 
Tool ?

From: mailop [mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org] On Behalf Of Annalivia Ford
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2018 7:57 AM
To: Benjamin BILLON 
Cc: mailop@mailop.org
Subject: Re: [mailop] Weird problems with mitigation at Hotmail/Outlook


Hi Benjamin

Im seeing some weird stuff too - a customer who hosts his email domain on O365, 
sent a few hundred thousand tests on our IP to his own domain, no hotmail or 
outlook addresses involved, and yet the test mailings show up on SNDS and his 
IP reputation is thrashed. The irony is he sends mail on behalf of an MS 
product. Im not really sure where to go with this from here, as our insisting 
tickets are being ignored.

The law of unintended consequences?



Regards,

Annalivia Ford
Email Services Manager, EMEA
[IBM Cognitive Engagement | Watson Marketing | Watson Commerce | Watson 
Marketing]

[IBM Watson]

Phone: +31 (0)6 53 32 34 44
eMail: annalivi...@nl.ibm.com






[Inactive hide details for Benjamin BILLON ---17/01/2018 02:01:20---Hi, A 
reputation has to be evaluated on the long term of cou]Benjamin BILLON 
---17/01/2018 02:01:20---Hi, A reputation has to be evaluated on the long term 
of course, however the older the "action" was,

From: Benjamin BILLON >
To: Michael Wise 
>, Michael Wise 
via mailop >
Date: 17/01/2018 02:01
Subject: Re: [mailop] Weird problems with mitigation at Hotmail/Outlook
Sent by: "mailop" >





Hi,

A reputation has to be evaluated on the long term of course, however the older 
the "action" was, the less importance it should have.

Another tricky part of "reputation", that we witnessed recently with Microsoft 
particularly, is that there are "links" created along with the reputation.
We know that Gmail takes into account a lot of things, not just headers, and 
keywords, and domain names, and IP addresses, and behavior of users, but also 
interactions between those, and other stuff.
We guess Microsoft does something similar.
So these "links" could be tricky, as we recently had Brazilian clients moving 
out to another ESP. They had dedicated IPs. We forbid them to send crap (that 
might be a reason why the left), but now they're free again, so crap it is.
The dedicated IPs, not sending anything anymore, have been blocked, as noticed 
in SNDS.
We suspect that because they are using the same domain name now with the new 
provider, than they did with us previously, and that now they are spamming from 
totally unrelated IPs, our IPs have been impacted. The fortunate part is that 
there's nothing going out of these IPs, because if we immediately re-attributed 
them to another client, maybe this client would have issues, and we would be 
investigating what he was doing wrong while it could be not his fault at all.

Maybe that could be solved after a few insistent tickets to the support.

Cheers,
--
Benjamin


From: mailop [mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org] On Behalf Of Michael Wise via 
mailop
Sent: Friday, 12 January, 2018 06:17
To: 
paul+mai...@oxygennetworks.com.au; 
'Edgaras | SENDER' >
Cc: mailop@mailop.org; 'Tim Starr' 
>
Subject: Re: [mailop] Weird problems with mitigation at Hotmail/Outlook


Our reputation system has a *LONG* memory.
And I'm sure it's not alone.

Aloha,
Michael.
--
Michael J Wise
Microsoft Corporation| Spam Analysis
"Your Spam Specimen Has Been Processed."
Got the Junk Mail Reporting 
Tool
 ?

From: Paul Julian [mailto:p...@oxygennetworks.com.au] 

Re: [mailop] Weird problems with mitigation at Hotmail/Outlook

[Annalivia Ford]

Hi Benjamin

Im seeing some weird stuff too - a customer who hosts his email domain on
O365, sent a few hundred thousand tests on our IP to his own domain, no
hotmail or outlook addresses involved, and yet the test mailings show up on
SNDS and his IP reputation is thrashed. The irony is he sends mail on
behalf of an MS product. Im not really sure where to go with this from
here, as our insisting tickets are being ignored.

The law of unintended consequences?




   Regards,  IBM Watson 

   Annalivia Ford   
   Email Services Manager, EMEA 
   IBM Cognitive Engagement | Watson Marketing | Watson 
   Commerce | Watson Marketing   

   Phone: +31 (0)6 53 32 34 44  
   eMail: annalivi...@nl.ibm.com










From:   Benjamin BILLON 
To: Michael Wise , Michael Wise via
mailop 
Date:   17/01/2018 02:01
Subject:Re: [mailop] Weird problems with mitigation at Hotmail/Outlook
Sent by:"mailop" 



Hi,

A reputation has to be evaluated on the long term of course, however the
older the "action" was, the less importance it should have.

Another tricky part of "reputation", that we witnessed recently with
Microsoft particularly, is that there are "links" created along with the
reputation.
We know that Gmail takes into account a lot of things, not just headers,
and keywords, and domain names, and IP addresses, and behavior of users,
but also interactions between those, and other stuff.
We guess Microsoft does something similar.
So these "links" could be tricky, as we recently had Brazilian clients
moving out to another ESP. They had dedicated IPs. We forbid them to send
crap (that might be a reason why the left), but now they're free again, so
crap it is.
The dedicated IPs, not sending anything anymore, have been blocked, as
noticed in SNDS.
We suspect that because they are using the same domain name now with the
new provider, than they did with us previously, and that now they are
spamming from totally unrelated IPs, our IPs have been impacted. The
fortunate part is that there's nothing going out of these IPs, because if
we immediately re-attributed them to another client, maybe this client
would have issues, and we would be investigating what he was doing wrong
while it could be not his fault at all.

Maybe that could be solved after a few insistent tickets to the support.

Cheers,
--
Benjamin


From: mailop [mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org] On Behalf Of Michael Wise
via mailop
Sent: Friday, 12 January, 2018 06:17
To: paul+mai...@oxygennetworks.com.au; 'Edgaras | SENDER'

Cc: mailop@mailop.org; 'Tim Starr' 
Subject: Re: [mailop] Weird problems with mitigation at Hotmail/Outlook


Our reputation system has a *LONG* memory.
And I'm sure it's not alone.

Aloha,
Michael.
--
Michael J Wise
Microsoft Corporation| Spam Analysis
"Your Spam Specimen Has Been Processed."
Got the Junk Mail Reporting Tool ?

From: Paul Julian [mailto:p...@oxygennetworks.com.au] On Behalf Of paul
+mai...@oxygennetworks.com.au
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2018 1:45 PM
To: Michael Wise ; 'Edgaras | SENDER' <
edga...@sender.net>
Cc: mailop@mailop.org; 'Tim Starr' 
Subject: RE: [mailop] Weird problems with mitigation at Hotmail/Outlook

Hi Michael,

Is there a reason why unused or newly allocated blocks seem to be
automatically blocked for Outlook/Hotmail ?
We were recently allocated a new /22 for customers and every one of the
customers who uses their own mailserver is getting blocked by MS, no
spamming no history just blocked.
I realise that some systems work on reputation, but how can you get a good
reputation if you can’t send the email in the first place ?

Is there some reason why whole blocks are just blocked by MS ? this seems
to be the case with us.
What can network operators do to alleviate this problem for our customers ?
The customers look to us for a resolution as their provider, but apart from
request that an address gets unblocked there is nothing more we can do, and
unfortunately they don’t see it that way.
It’s unreasonable for us to think that we have to put in 1024 requests to
get IP’s unblocked, which would all be rejected for mitigation initially,
then you have to reply to 

Re: [mailop] Outlook - no blocks, but still not delivered

[Daniele Duca]

Hi Javed,

we had a similar problem two weeks ago, it spontaneously and 
misteriously solved itself after a week without opening any ticket.


We mitigated during that week of issues by deploying a new MTA (in the 
same /24) and delivering mails to O365/Hotmail/Outlook through that new 
server.


Regards

Daniele Duca


On 22/01/2018 23:56, Javed Ali wrote:

Hi Michael,

Thanks for your quick response.

I've already requested escalations multiple times through the tickets 
and there's been no response after doing so. Our customer has also 
done the same through the ticket they've created. We've attempted to 
follow the formal channels for ~ 5 days but so far we're not having 
any luck.


The point of this list post was not solely to request an escalation, 
but to also seek advice from the industry to see if anyone else had 
experienced similar issues. I'd greatly appreciate any advice if 
others have experienced this issue before.


*Javed Ali*
Intergrid Group

On 23 January 2018 at 09:50, Michael Wise > wrote:


This mailinglist is not for Outlook issue escalations.

All such need to be handled thru the tickets you have already opened.

And I make a point of not having any visibility into said tickets
until when and IFF they are handed to me as escalations.

Any other way lies madness, sorry.

Aloha,

Michael.

-- 


*Michael J Wise*
MicrosoftCorporation| Spam Analysis

"Your Spam Specimen Has Been Processed."

Got the Junk Mail Reporting Tool
?

*From:* mailop [mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org
] *On Behalf Of *Javed Ali
*Sent:* Monday, January 22, 2018 2:37 PM
*To:* mailop@mailop.org 
*Subject:* [mailop] Outlook - no blocks, but still not delivered

Hi all,

Apologies for the list noise.

One of our IaaS customers is having issues with emails to Outlook.
Delivery logs (via WHM) show that emails are being delivered to
Outlook and accepted. There are no blacklist or block errors received.

However, emails are not being received in either the inbox or the
spam folder of the receiver. The issue is isolated to
Outlook/Hotmail recipients. These are legitimate corporate emails
- nothing spammy.

We have tried to use the formal support channels but we either get
template responses (there are no blocks; use SNDS and JMRP) or no
response at all. We already use SNDS and JMRP, neither show issues
for this IP.

Any assistance or advice would be greatly appreciated. If anyone
from Outlook is on-list, the ticket numbers are SRX1412590030ID
and SRX1412173041ID.

Cheers,

*Javed Ali*

Intergrid Group

Image removed by sender.




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