Re: [mailop] Microsoft/Hotmail discards mails

2016 12:43 PM To: Michael Wise <michael.w...@microsoft.com> Cc: Suresh Ramasubramanian <ops.li...@gmail.com>; Brandon Long <bl...@google.com>; mailop <mailop@mailop.org>; Hugo Slabbert <hslabb...@stargate.ca> Subject: Re: [mailop] Microsoft/Hotmail discards mails As someo

Re: [mailop] Microsoft/Hotmail discards mails

:15 AM > To: Brandon Long <bl...@google.com> > Cc: mailop <mailop@mailop.org>; Hugo Slabbert <hslabb...@stargate.ca> > Subject: Re: [mailop] Microsoft/Hotmail discards mails > > That's where a human postmaster team comes in handy along with sufficient > autom

Re: [mailop] Microsoft/Hotmail discards mails [slightly OT]

On 13/6/2016 19:14, Brandon Long via mailop wrote: I would argue something differently: many email users (and postal mail, for that matter), have an expectation that email is mostly but not 100% reliable, due to spam false positives or just the lack of delivery notification. People can then

Re: [mailop] Microsoft/Hotmail discards mails

That's where a human postmaster team comes in handy along with sufficient automation (self removals, automated relists, automated upgrades to covering cidr blocks, a template driven ticketing system that lets you handle multiple tickets with a single set of actions for reply / closure .. Give

Re: [mailop] Microsoft/Hotmail discards mails [slightly OT]

I would argue something differently: many email users (and postal mail, for that matter), have an expectation that email is mostly but not 100% reliable, due to spam false positives or just the lack of delivery notification. People can then choose to not respond to a message and later claim they

Re: [mailop] Microsoft/Hotmail discards mails

On Fri, Jun 10, 2016 at 12:05 PM, Hugo Slabbert wrote: > On Fri 2016-Jun-10 12:32:20 -0600, Tim Starr wrote: > >> >> I am not saying this is a good idea, but it sounds to me like what would >> fit the bill here would be a new folder for each user

Re: [mailop] Microsoft/Hotmail discards mails

>At the request of the customer-base, traffic that is classified as >sufficiently spammy (by various "Black Box" algorithms that I have no >knowledge of the inner workings...) is deleted even after a successful >delivery. Is this the case for O365 hosted email as well, or just a Hotmail thing?

Re: [mailop] Microsoft/Hotmail discards mails

First of all, my kudos to Michael for discussing this so openly. On 10 Jun 2016, at 12:05, Hugo Slabbert wrote: I think everyone gets that the preferred behaviour is to reject at SMTP time, that it gets difficult/impossible to do the more tests you try and stuff into the filtering decision

Re: [mailop] Microsoft/Hotmail discards mails

On Fri 2016-Jun-10 12:32:20 -0600, Tim Starr wrote: I am not saying this is a good idea, but it sounds to me like what would fit the bill here would be a new folder for each user called "Bounced" in which they would see all messages sent to their email address but which

Re: [mailop] Microsoft/Hotmail discards mails

I am not saying this is a good idea, but it sounds to me like what would fit the bill here would be a new folder for each user called "Bounced" in which they would see all messages sent to their email address but which were bounced by their mailbox provider. However, that would defeat the purpose

Re: [mailop] Microsoft/Hotmail discards mails

On Thu, Jun 09, 2016 at 09:25:00AM +0100, Paul Smith wrote: > I'd have thought that even if you do decide to just throw "extreme" > junk away (which I think is a very bad idea, BTW), then you should > tell the user that you've done so - either in a daily/weekly summary > email or an online list or

Re: [mailop] Microsoft/Hotmail discards mails

> You're saying that, simply because a sender or recipient > MIGHT be in Germany, that my US-based mail server has to send > an NDR? And risk getting added to a "backscatter" RBL? No, you also have the option of delivering it to the user in a method that equates to delivery, such as delivering

Re: [mailop] Microsoft/Hotmail discards mails

>> At one point, Hotmail tried to turn off the delete action for sufficiently >> spammy, and just delivered it >into Junk; Customers complained. Loudly. > >Is there a public place/forum/whatever where people complained loudly? I >am just curious to see their arguments about this. The Hotmail

Re: [mailop] Microsoft/Hotmail discards mails [slightly OT]

On 9/6/2016 17:46, Renaud Allard via mailop wrote: Actually, many small operators also silently discard email. Whether it's by incompetence, or voluntarily doesn't matter much. It's just less visible than hotmail. Undoubtedly, but they can't use the scaling-is-hard argument as a free pass. We

Re: [mailop] Microsoft/Hotmail discards mails [slightly OT]

On 06/09/2016 04:33 PM, G. Miliotis wrote: > On 9/6/2016 16:13, Michael Wise via mailop wrote: >> The discussion is on-going. > > This is at least one good thing about this whole deal. I think your > suggestion about deleted items (marked as such somehow) would be a good > compromise. > While

Re: [mailop] Microsoft/Hotmail discards mails

rd via mailop <mailto:mailop@mailop.org> > Sent: ‎6/‎9/‎2016 2:10 AM > To: mailop@mailop.org <mailto:mailop@mailop.org> > Subject: Re: [mailop] Microsoft/Hotmail discards mails > > > > On 06/09/2016 10:25 AM, Paul Smith wrote: >> The problem is there

Re: [mailop] Microsoft/Hotmail discards mails

that as ‘anomalous’ behaviour and do something about it? Thanks -- ian From: mailop [mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org] On Behalf Of Michael Wise via mailop Sent: 09 June 2016 14:27 To: Duncan Brannen <d...@st-andrews.ac.uk>; mailop@mailop.org Subject: Re: [mailop] Microsoft/Hotmail discards mails Se

Re: [mailop] Microsoft/Hotmail discards mails

Le Thu, Jun 09, 2016 at 02:09:31PM +, Michael Wise via mailop [mailop@mailop.org] a écrit: > Unsure what you're saying. If it's the .DE extension, then by that > logic, we, "explicitly target" a lot of users. Pretty much the whole > world, actually. That was the point :) Eric (in my

Re: [mailop] Microsoft/Hotmail discards mails

On Thu Jun 9 15:59:33 2016, Dominique Rousseau wrote: > Le Thu, Jun 09, 2016 at 01:49:26PM +, Eric Henson [ehen...@pfsweb.com] a > écrit: > > You're saying that, simply because a sender or recipient MIGHT be in > > Germany, that my US-based mail server has to send an NDR? > > I do believe

Re: [mailop] Microsoft/Hotmail discards mails

Dominique Rousseau<mailto:d.rouss...@nnx.com> Sent: ‎6/‎9/‎2016 7:04 AM To: mailop@mailop.org<mailto:mailop@mailop.org> Subject: Re: [mailop] Microsoft/Hotmail discards mails Le Thu, Jun 09, 2016 at 01:49:26PM +, Eric Henson [ehen...@pfsweb.com] a écrit: > You're saying that

Re: [mailop] Microsoft/Hotmail discards mails

Le Thu, Jun 09, 2016 at 01:49:26PM +, Eric Henson [ehen...@pfsweb.com] a écrit: > You're saying that, simply because a sender or recipient MIGHT be in > Germany, that my US-based mail server has to send an NDR? I do believe that Microsoft is explicitely targetting german users : # dig

Re: [mailop] Microsoft/Hotmail discards mails

ne 9, 2016 4:05 AM To: mailop@mailop.org Subject: Re: [mailop] Microsoft/Hotmail discards mails On 06/09/2016 10:25 AM, Paul Smith wrote: > The problem is there may be a few other users who get false positives > in that type of spam quite frequently, and suddenly they are losing > messages with no

Re: [mailop] Microsoft/Hotmail discards mails

aud Allard via mailop<mailto:mailop@mailop.org> Sent: ‎6/‎9/‎2016 4:16 AM To: Eric Henson<mailto:ehen...@pfsweb.com> Cc: mailop@mailop.org<mailto:mailop@mailop.org> Subject: Re: [mailop] Microsoft/Hotmail discards mails On 06/09/2016 12:39 PM, Eric Henson wrote: > You'r

Re: [mailop] Microsoft/Hotmail discards mails

gt;, "mailop@mailop.org" <mailop@mailop.org> Subject: RE: [mailop] Microsoft/Hotmail discards mails Separate IPs absolutely help, at least they do now. At some point, separate domains will be where it's at. "Canned Responses" are mandated by the Lawyers, who have had t

Re: [mailop] Microsoft/Hotmail discards mails

t;mailto:mailop@mailop.org> Subject: Re: [mailop] Microsoft/Hotmail discards mails As a long time hotmail.com account holder, I can tell you that I would never request a silent-discard option. If you are able to determine via black-box algorithms that a message is sufficiently spammy, why not refu

Re: [mailop] Microsoft/Hotmail discards mails

On 9/6/2016 05:08, Michael Wise via mailop wrote: At one point, Hotmail tried to turn off the delete action for sufficiently spammy, and just delivered it into Junk; Customers complained. Loudly. So whether the system is correctly classifying your traffic or not, I cannot say. But the

Re: [mailop] Microsoft/Hotmail discards mails

: Re: [mailop] Microsoft/Hotmail discards mails On 06/09/2016 10:25 AM, Paul Smith wrote: > The problem is there may be a few other users who get false positives > in that type of spam quite frequently, and suddenly they are losing > messages with no hope of redemption or even

Re: [mailop] Microsoft/Hotmail discards mails

On 06/09/2016 10:25 AM, Paul Smith wrote: > The problem is there may be a few other users who get false positives in > that type of spam quite frequently, and suddenly they are losing > messages with no hope of redemption or even knowledge that it's > happening. Actually, what I do is that when

Re: [mailop] Microsoft/Hotmail discards mails

On 09/06/2016 08:42, David Hofstee wrote: I'm dazzled by users here... Isn't the junk-box supposed to hold junk? Wow. Maybe there should be more junk-boxes for the various shades of grey :-). I'd have thought that even if you do decide to just throw "extreme" junk away (which I think is a very

Re: [mailop] Microsoft/Hotmail discards mails

: "Renaud Allard via mailop" <mailop@mailop.org> Aan: mailop@mailop.org Verzonden: Donderdag 9 juni 2016 09:14:35 Onderwerp: Re: [mailop] Microsoft/Hotmail discards mails Hi, On 06/09/2016 04:08 AM, Michael Wise via mailop wrote: > > At one point, Hotmail tried to turn

Re: [mailop] Microsoft/Hotmail discards mails

Hi, On 06/09/2016 04:08 AM, Michael Wise via mailop wrote: > > At one point, Hotmail tried to turn off the delete action for sufficiently > spammy, and just delivered it into Junk; Customers complained. Loudly. Is there a public place/forum/whatever where people complained loudly? I am just

Re: [mailop] Microsoft/Hotmail discards mails

As a long time hotmail.com account holder, I can tell you that I would never request a silent-discard option. If you are able to determine via black-box algorithms that a message is sufficiently spammy, why not refuse after post-dot? I'm sure Hotmail deals with spam volumes that are orders

Re: [mailop] Microsoft/Hotmail discards mails

supression and is illegal (§206 StGB). Best Regards Andreas Original-Nachricht Betreff: Re: [mailop] Microsoft/Hotmail discards mails Von: Michael Wise <michael.w...@microsoft.com> An: Andreas Ziegler <m...@andreas-ziegler.de>, mailop@mailop.org <mailop@mailop.org&g

Re: [mailop] Microsoft/Hotmail discards mails

At the request of the customer-base, traffic that is classified as sufficiently spammy (by various "Black Box" algorithms that I have no knowledge of the inner workings...) is deleted even after a successful delivery. At one point, Hotmail tried to turn off the delete action for sufficiently