Re: [Marxism] Fwd: MRZine and the White Helmets

[Michael Karadjis via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

The White Helmets are a rescue/aid organisation, like the Red Cross/Red 
Crescent for example. I think the simplest answer to Mike's question is 
that nearly all funds for such organisations around the world come from 
imperialist countries, including the US, because that's who had the 
money. Socialists have traditionally complained that the amount supplied 
by these imperialist states was relatively small, compared to human 
need, not that the source of the aid made the aid suspect. Not saying 
that Mike is saying that, but of course that is what certain others do 
say. It would be interesting to find a list of which other humanitarian 
organisations the US funds around the world to see the degree of 
cross-over with what any human would want.


Of course, such aid often/usually comes either with strings attached 
and/or is used as some other kind of political pressure and/or is 
inadequate etc. That's the real world. For example, there was a great 
deal to criticise about the US relief effort after the Haiti earthquake; 
and the amount was inadequate (although the amount raised for Haiti 
within four days of the earthquake was double the total provided to the 
White Helmets altogether). But the source of the aid was not in itself a 
reason to consider the concrete aid that did reach people a bad thing. 
Want a real dilemma? We advocate boycott of Israel; yet  "A rescue team 
sent by the Israel Defense Forces' Home Front Command established a 
field hospital near the United Nations building in Port-au-Prince with 
specialised facilities to treat children, the elderly, and women in 
labor. It was set up in eight hours and began operations on the evening 
of 16 January.[124]." When Bush cut off US funds to reproductive 
services around the world that had any connection to abortion, we 
condemned the cuts, not the fact of US funding.


I don't see the WH as different to any of these obvious examples. The 
real problem is the rise of the politics of "x funds y" so therefore y 
is bad, as a substitute for political analysis (again, I'm not talking 
about Mike - but that politics is the reason that question is out and 
about).



-Original Message- 
From: Mike Sola via Marxism

Sent: Sunday, October 2, 2016 1:36 AM
To: Michael Karadjis
Subject: Re: [Marxism] Fwd: MRZine and the White Helmets

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

Louis,

Thanks for your answer.

I was not--by any stretch--"making a stink."

Mike

-- "And you are right. I have no idea who you are and what your politics 
are. But when you make a
stink about people rescuing people from bombed out buildings at the very 
moment hospitals are being

targeted in East Aleppo, I can put two and two together."


_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/mkaradjis%40gmail.com 


_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Why Hillary Clinton Doesn’t Deserve the Black Vote | The Nation

[Dennis Brasky via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

Really? Clay - you've really gone off the deep end.

On Sat, Oct 1, 2016 at 9:11 PM, Clay Claiborne via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

>
>
>  Plus Trump is organizing his 2nd Amendment people
> into militias and preparing them for extra-legal action, possibly even the
> extra-legal seizure of state power, if they can get it with Stein's help.
>
>
_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

[Marxism] Fwd: German Journalist Interview in Syria Under Fire - SPIEGEL ONLINE

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

Doubts about Authenticity
Momentous Syria Interview Under Fire

German journalist Jürgen Todenhöfer filmed an interview with an alleged 
rebel commander near Aleppo. The claims made by the commander -- that 
the US was supporting al-Qaida -- made headlines around the world. But 
was the interview authentic?


full: 
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/german-journalist-interview-in-syria-under-fire-a-1114892.html

_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

[Marxism] Why Trudeau?

[Gary MacLennan via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

Amidst all the crises of centre-right parties, otherwise known as social
democratic parties, it is interesting to plot how and where centrists go
for occasions for hope. I noted two significant pilgrimages in this
regard.  The Labour Rightist Mayor of London went to pay homage to Justin
Trudeau.  His visit was then followed by that of the Leader of the
Australian Party Bill Shorten.

I know virtually nothing about Canadian politics and generally  they do not
figure largely on the Australian scene or on this list! But why has Trudeau
emerged as the Great White Hope of the Mayor of London and the Leader of
her Majesty's opposition in Australia?

He offers, I take it, some kind of mild Keynesianism as a way of relief
from the brutalities of neoliberalism. He is also charismatic, exudes charm
and is able to talk about quantum computers. Wow!!  He has the kind of ease
and confidence of the ruling class that seems so conspicuously missing from
the Presidential contest south of the Canadian border.

>From the British perspective he has the advantage of not being Corbyn. The
latter bearded and scruffy, God bless him, does not rate highly on the
smooth and charismatic scale. Sadiq Khan would go anywhere not to be
photographed with Corbyn.

In Australia there is not a cheep about Corbyn from any section of the
Labor Party. Shorten is like Khan in that he seems happy not to acknowledge
Corbyn's existence.

But perhaps, just maybe, Corbynism will be publicly acknowledged here
outside the Green Left Weekly circle as a political phenomenon  that
Australians have something to learn from.

We'll see

comradely

Gary
_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Why Hillary Clinton Doesn’t Deserve the Black Vote | The Nation

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

On 10/1/16 8:50 PM, Clay Claiborne wrote:

Question is why is it being posted to the list now?



To remind you that you don't speak for all Black people.
_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Why Hillary Clinton Doesn’t Deserve the Black Vote | The Nation

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

On Sat, Oct 1, 2016 at 7:47 PM, Ernest Leif  wrote:

> I actually think that white supremacy will be emboldened under the rule of
> Hill & Co.
>

Yes, it will. Most certainly. It has already been emboldened under the rule
of a black POTUS. The alt-right has developed as a result. Donald Trump
came to the head of a white nationalist movement directly because of his
racist attacks on Obama and now there is a serious chance that hwe will
become POTUS.

So will the white nationalists still feel emboldened even if they lose?
Having come this close this quickly they will and no matter what they will
be better organized, more massive and still in control of one of the two
main capitalist parties. Plus Trump is organizing his 2nd Amendment people
into militias and preparing them for extra-legal action, possibly even the
extra-legal seizure of state power, if they can get it with Stein's help.

So will the white nationalists feel embolden when they are making advances
worldwide. Putin's aggression and support for brutally fascist regimes
remains unchecked. And the alt-right has made dramatic gains in Europe and
Britain.

Mean while the western Left has remained white dominated with feel roots
among the masses and most have sold their soul [I'm having a Michelle
Alexander moment] to Gaddafi, Assad and Putin, and now they are working
hard to put Trump in the WH.

So will the white nationalist feel embolden if Clinton wins? Yes, but if
the white nationalist win state power there will be hell to pay.  [another
Michelle Alexander moment]

Regards,


Clay Claiborne, Director
Vietnam: American Holocaust
Linux Beach Productions
Venice, CA 90291
(310) 581-1536

Read my blogs at the Linux Beach
_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Why Hillary Clinton Doesn’t Deserve the Black Vote | The Nation

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

I didn't realize this was a very old article from February when I posted
above. That was before Bernie was beaten at the DNC so I would read it
somewhat differently in terms of who it was targeting in february. Question
is why is it being posted to the list now?

Michelle Alexander today [19 Sept]

http://www.faithfullymagazine.com/michelle-alexander-new-jim-crow-author-explains-transition-law-religion/

And yet I now feel compelled to change course. I am walking away from the
> law. I’ve resigned my position as a law professor at Ohio State University,
> and I’ve decided to teach and study at a seminary. Why?
> There is no easy answer to this question, and there are times I worry that
> I have completely lost my mind.
> ...
> And I no longer believe we can “win” justice simply by filing lawsuits,
> flexing our political muscles or boosting voter turnout. Yes, we absolutely
> must do that work, but none of it — not even working for some form of
> political revolution — will ever be enough on its own. Without a moral or
> spiritual awakening, we will remain forever trapped in political games
> fueled by fear, greed and the hunger for power. American history teaches
> how these games predictably play out within our borders: Time and again,
> race gets used as the Trump Card, a reliable means of dividing, controlling
> and misleading the players so a few can win the game.


The New Jim Crow is a fine piece of work but that doesn't make Michelle
Alexander someone we should follow.

Regards,


Clay Claiborne, Director
Vietnam: American Holocaust 
Linux Beach Productions
Venice, CA 90291
(310) 581-1536

Read my blogs at the Linux Beach 

_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Why Hillary Clinton Doesn’t Deserve the Black Vote | The Nation

[Ernest Leif via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

I've been following this thread and I truly believe there's no easy answer
when asked "who are you going to vote for?" My mother, a black woman from
Harlem and the Bronx loathes Hill & Co. - we all voted for Bernie - but
feels Trump would be a disaster. She asked me what to do. What can I say?
Not only to her but to all the other Black folks I know who can't stand
Hill but fear Trump even more.

I actually think that white supremacy will be emboldened under the rule of
Hill & Co. as well, not just because of any anti-woman backlash, but
because she'll do nothing to assuage the economic anxiety of those voting
for Trump. Add to the mix that we have no left wing making inroads with
those same populations and things don't look good four years down the road,
or especially if our economy turns south. We need a mass party now. I don't
know where to find.

I'm concerned no matter which one wins.
_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Why Hillary Clinton Doesn’t Deserve the Black Vote | The Nation

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

On 10/1/16 8:26 PM, Clay Claiborne wrote:


I don't know why Michelle Alexander wrote this piece.


She wrote it because her focus is on the prison-industrial system. She 
was featured in Ava DuVernay's new film "The 13th" because of her 
knowledge about the political economy of prisons. Those interviewed 
about Clinton' 1994 Omnibus Crime Bill in the film described it as more 
injurious to Black Americans than anything Nixon, Reagan or Bush did.


http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2015/aug/25/julius-jones/black-lives-matter-activist-says-clintons-passed-p/
_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Why Hillary Clinton Doesn’t Deserve the Black Vote | The Nation

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

On Sat, Oct 1, 2016 at 3:51 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

>
> An oft-repeated myth about the Clinton administration is that although it
> was overly tough on crime back in the 1990s, at least its policies were
> good for the economy and for black unemployment rates. The truth is more
> troubling. As unemployment rates sank to historically low levels for white
> Americans in the 1990s, the jobless rate among black men in their 20s who
> didn’t have a college degree rose to its highest level ever. This increase
> in joblessness was propelled by the skyrocketing incarceration rate.
>
> Why is this not common knowledge? Because government statistics like
> poverty and unemployment rates do not include incarcerated people.


It is common knowledge, maybe not in academic circles dependent on gov't
stat, but it certainly is on the streets were I live. The skyrocketing
incarcerated rate is very real for black people in LA county, but in no way
does that add up to refusing to vote for Clinton and suffering a much more
draconian and openly racist regime under the only available option.

I don't know why Michelle Alexander wrote this piece. Maybe they asked her
to, maybe they paid her to, maybe it was just another chance to utilize her
amazing research.

She doesn't mention Stein, Johnson or Trump, so what is the point of
targeting Clinton?

I don't know why Michelle Alexander wrote this piece, but I think I do know
why The Nation published it.

Regards,

Clay Claiborne, Director
Vietnam: American Holocaust 
Linux Beach Productions
Venice, CA 90291
(310) 581-1536

Read my blogs at the Linux Beach 
_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Why Hillary Clinton Doesn’t Deserve the Black Vote | The Nation

[Dennis Brasky via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

Michelle Alexander is obviously capitulating to white nationalism!

On Sat, Oct 1, 2016 at 4:51 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

>
> full: https://www.thenation.com/article/hillary-clinton-does-not-
> deserve-black-peoples-votes/
>
>
_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

[Marxism] Sean Spicer, RNC's Chief Strategist now tweeting for Stein

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

Sean Spicer ‏@seanspicer  Chief Strategist & Communications Director,
Republican National Cmte [verified account]


@smerconish since you are such an advocate of 3rd parties when was the last
time you or @cnn had @DrJillStein on?
https://twitter.com/seanspicer/status/782190359455666176

9am every sat. That aside choosing not to give her air time is clearly an
attempt to help @TheDemocrats @HillaryClinton
https://twitter.com/seanspicer/status/782191576000950272

1 comment & 3 questions:
comment - my father would be proud to see this GOP tradition continued.

1) Why is the chief GOP strategists doing this?
2) Do you think he puts any money where his mouth is?
3) Are all the Stein supporters on this list going to re-tweet him?







Clay Claiborne, Director
Vietnam: American Holocaust 
Linux Beach Productions
Venice, CA 90291
(310) 581-1536

Read my blogs at the Linux Beach 

_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

[Marxism] Oscar Brand, Folk Singer Whose Radio Show Twanged for Decades, Dies at 96

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

NY Times, Oct. 1 2016
Oscar Brand, Folk Singer Whose Radio Show Twanged for Decades, Dies at 96
By DOUGLAS MARTIN

Oscar Brand, the lanky, affable, gravelly-voiced folk singer and 
songwriter whose weekly on-air hootenanny was the longest-running radio 
show in history with a single host, died on Friday at his home in Great 
Neck, N.Y. He was 96.


Doug Yeager, Mr. Brand’s personal manager, said the cause was pneumonia.

In addition to performing and recording prolifically, Mr. Brand wrote 
books, articles and the scores for Broadway musicals and documentary 
films. He also hosted television shows. But it was his radio show, 
“Folksong Festival,” for which he was best known.


Every week for more than 70 years, with the easy, familiar voice of a 
friend, Mr. Brand invited listeners of the New York public radio station 
WNYC to his quirky, informal combination of American music symposium, 
barn dance, cracker-barrel conversation, songwriting session and verbal 
horseplay. Mr. Brand’s last show aired on Sept. 24, Mr. Yeager said.


Everyone who was anyone in folk music dropped by. Woody Guthrie — 
Woodrow Wilson Guthrie, as Mr. Brand called his rambling friend — was 
known to burst in unexpectedly to try out a new song. Bob Dylan told a 
riveting tale about his boyhood in a carnival, not a word of it true.


The music roamed hither and yon, and back again — from fiddlers to folk 
songs of the Appalachians to ethnic songs of the big cities. In the 
1940s Mr. Brand played what were then known as “race records” by the 
likes of Memphis Minnie and Tampa Red, precursors of rhythm and blues 
and rock ’n’ roll.


He also established his own one-of-a-kind reputation. In 1959, The New 
York Times called him “one of radio’s most genial fanatics.”


His radio career began in December 1945, after he wrote a letter to New 
York stations offering to present a program of Christmas songs he 
claimed most people had never heard. WNYC, which at the time was owned 
by the city, accepted the challenge. His song about Santa’s distinctive 
body odor proved his point.


At the show’s end, WNYC’s program director asked Mr. Brand what he was 
doing the next week. He boldly replied that he’d be right back in the 
same studio in the Municipal Building.


So began what Guinness World Records eventually verified as radio’s 
longest-running show with a single host. (It beat out Alistair Cooke’s 
“Letter From America,” which ran for just under 58 years.)


Mr. Brand never had a contract, but he kept coming back. His employers 
particularly appreciated that he never asked for compensation — nor did 
he ever receive any.


His guests included the Weavers (who took their name from a listener’s 
suggestion), Lead Belly, Judy Collins, Harry Belafonte, Joan Baez, Phil 
Ochs, Harry Chapin, Emmylou Harris, B.B. King and Woody Guthrie’s son, 
Arlo, who as a teenager gave one of the earliest performances of his 
song “Alice’s Restaurant” on Mr. Brand’s show.


In 1995, Mr. Brand won a Peabody Award for “more than 50 years in 
service to the music and messages of folk performers and fans around the 
world.”


Mr. Brand’s own singing voice had an offhand (and sometimes off-key) 
authenticity, which he applied to old, new and sometimes deliberately 
mangled songs, both on and off the air. He was also an accomplished 
songwriter. Doris Day’s version of his song “A Guy Is a Guy” reached No. 
1 on the Billboard chart in 1952.


He scored ballets for Agnes de Mille and commercials for Log Cabin Syrup 
and Cheerios. He wrote music for documentary films, published songbooks 
and hosted the children’s television shows “The First Look” and “Spirit 
of ’76” as well as, from 1963 to 1967, the Canadian television series 
“Let’s Sing Out.”


He also wrote, with Paul Nassau, the music and lyrics for two shows that 
made it to Broadway, although neither had a long run: “A Joyful Noise” 
(1966) and “The Education of H*Y*M*A*N K*A*P*L*A*N (1968), based on 
stories by Leo Rosten. He was curator of the Songwriters Hall of Fame 
and served on the advisory panel that helped develop “Sesame Street.”


He was born on Feb. 7, 1920, on a wheat farm near Winnipeg, Manitoba. 
His father was an interpreter to Indians for the Hudson’s Bay Company 
and later ran a theatrical supply company and a pawnshop.


Young Oscar fell in love with music while listening to player-piano 
rolls. His family moved to Minneapolis when he was 7, then to Chicago 
and finally to Brooklyn, where they sought treatment for Oscar, who had 
been born with a missing calf muscle.


He graduated from Erasmus Hall High School in Brooklyn, then roamed the 
country with his banjo, working on 

[Marxism] Fwd: Why Hillary Clinton Doesn’t Deserve the Black Vote | The Nation

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

An oft-repeated myth about the Clinton administration is that although 
it was overly tough on crime back in the 1990s, at least its policies 
were good for the economy and for black unemployment rates. The truth is 
more troubling. As unemployment rates sank to historically low levels 
for white Americans in the 1990s, the jobless rate among black men in 
their 20s who didn’t have a college degree rose to its highest level 
ever. This increase in joblessness was propelled by the skyrocketing 
incarceration rate.


Why is this not common knowledge? Because government statistics like 
poverty and unemployment rates do not include incarcerated people. As 
Harvard sociologist Bruce Western explains: “Much of the optimism about 
declines in racial inequality and the power of the US model of economic 
growth is misplaced once we account for the invisible poor, behind the 
walls of America’s prisons and jails.” When Clinton left office in 2001, 
the true jobless rate for young, non-college-educated black men 
(including those behind bars) was 42 percent. This figure was never 
reported. Instead, the media claimed that unemployment rates for African 
Americans had fallen to record lows, neglecting to mention that this 
miracle was possible only because incarceration rates were now at record 
highs. Young black men weren’t looking for work at high rates during the 
Clinton era because they were now behind bars—out of sight, out of mind, 
and no longer counted in poverty and unemployment statistics.


To make matters worse, the federal safety net for poor families was torn 
to shreds by the Clinton administration in its effort to “end welfare as 
we know it.” In his 1996 State of the Union address, given during his 
re-election campaign, Clinton declared that “the era of big government 
is over” and immediately sought to prove it by dismantling the federal 
welfare system known as Aid to Families With Dependent Children (AFDC). 
The welfare-reform legislation that he signed—which Hillary Clinton 
ardently supported then and characterized as a success as recently as 
2008—replaced the federal safety net with a block grant to the states, 
imposed a five-year lifetime limit on welfare assistance, added work 
requirements, barred undocumented immigrants from licensed professions, 
and slashed overall public welfare funding by $54 billion (some was 
later restored).


full: 
https://www.thenation.com/article/hillary-clinton-does-not-deserve-black-peoples-votes/

_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] What's up with this?

[Thomas via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

Donary Crunk for President?

No thanks.

T


-Original Message-
>From: Mark Lause via Marxism 
>Sent: Oct 1, 2016 10:19 AM
>To: Thomas F Barton 
>Subject: Re: [Marxism] What's up with this?
>
>Yes, this is primarily a Democratic Party tactical choice.  Look at the
>bumper stickers, buttons, etc. or how she is discussed in the media by her
>supporters.  (You don't see much "Vote for Donnie.")  The ad people would
>say that "Hillary" tends to humanize her and make her grandmotherly.  It
>further emphasizes gender and consolidates the most ardent of her core
>constituency--women who think that her election will automatically be good
>for women because she is one.  (A twist on the only plausible argument
>supporters made for Obama.)
>
>Then, too, if someone who doesn't support her calls her "Hillary," they can
>ask why they call her "Hillary" and the Republican candidate "Trump."
>
>On the other hand, there can be some confusion with just "Clinton,"
>especially if you are discussing a matter of record.   That's because of
>Bill, of course.  This is a problem with decadent dynastic politics.
>
>ML
>_


_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] What's up with this?

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

Actually, as Hillary tells it, becoming a Clinton was a Democratic tactical
choice. She didn't become a Clinton by marrying Bill, she kept her last
name Rodham, even when Bill got elected gov. the 1st time, but he was
turned out after only 2 years. Main voter complaint was Hillary kept her
last name, so she changed it and he was elected again and again. So maybe
if the country was less conservative and less concerned with trivial matter
she might be running today as Hillary Rodham and you wouldn't be able to
use her last name to clump her in with Bill.

You #NeverHillary activist are a scream. Does this thread have selective
amnesia?

What about http://www.jill2016.com/  and why isn't the main Green Party
logo for this campaign Stein2016?
It seems to me that every criticism of the Democrats use of "Hillary"
listed above applies equally to the Greens use of "Jill"

There is also "Jill not Hill" Google search for that turns up 37,000 hits.
In addition the above criticisms that apply to "Hillary" I would add 2
more, one minor and one major.
The minor added critique is that it represents a mangling of the name of
the other woman running for president, and can be added to Stein's tweet
that she is a better mother than Clinton. I hate to see a so-called
progressive campaign stoop to that level. Have you ever heard a male
politician brag that he is a better father than his opponent? The question
of what kind father he is doesn't even come up. [I can hear the rebuttal
now "well it should" don't bother.]

The major critique is that it clearly frames the Stein campaign as a
pro-Trump campaign. As the Green's main slogan it shows clearly that they
are going after Clinton voters, not Trump voters, Johnson voters,or new
voters. It is a slogan to divert Clinton voters towards Stein, and unless
she has a snowball's chance in hell of winning, she doesn't, it is a
pro-Trump slogan. In fact, if past practice applies, we can expect that
there will be a fair amount of GOP money promoting that slogan.

-
The one thing I think the Green's are right about is that bourgeois
democracy, which they refer to at it current stage as "neo-liberalist",
does trend toward fascist in the period of imperialist decay. It can be
fairly argued that WWII was more than just a worldwide conflict between
imperialist powers over the division of the world as WWI was, it was also
the first worldwide fascist assault on bourgeois democracy and socialism.
Fortunately this first assault was beaten back by a worldwide coalition of
socialists and "neo-liberals."

I think we are currently witnessing the second worldwide fascist assault on
bourgeoisie democracy and socialism such as it still exists. It already
holds state power in Russian, has developed its barbaric practices in Syria
and, is now making concerted efforts to win state power in the west,
initially by non-violent means.

Given these developments, one could only wish that a Marxist mail list
would spend more time discussing that and less selectively discussing one
of the two female presidential candidates that promotes her first name.

Clay Claiborne, Director
Vietnam: American Holocaust 
Linux Beach Productions
Venice, CA 90291
(310) 581-1536

Read my blogs at the Linux Beach 
_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] Fwd: MRZine and the White Helmets

[Dennis Brasky via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

On the simplistic formula of placing a plus wherever the enemy places a
minus  https://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1938/05/think.htm

On Sat, Oct 1, 2016 at 9:39 AM, Mike Sola via Marxism
>
> *
>
> Whether or not the tweet should have been featured, does the content of
> the tweet, that the State Department spokesman says it provides $23 million
> to the White Helmets, not raise any flags?
>
_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] further thought

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

On 10/1/16 11:00 AM, Clay Claiborne via Marxism wrote:

the Green Party is still a white party.


So was the SWP in 1967 with a few exceptions that could be counted by 
the fingers on one hand. If I wanted to join a left group where racial 
composition was a litmus test, I would have joined the CPUSA that had 
lots of Black members including Angela Davis. But sometimes Black people 
make mistakes. The CPUSA had a very mixed record on Black liberation. 
While being on the front lines of the civil rights movement, it was 
hostile to Black nationalism--accusing Malcolm X of dividing the working 
class, etc. It also propagandized for supporting Democrats just like 
Clay is doing now.


If the Greens have a mostly white membership, it is not because of its 
program. For example, Jill Stein favors reparations for slavery as 
opposed to Hillary Clinton supporter Adolph Reed, who despite his brief 
membership in the Trotskyist movement, argues that the call for 
reparations will divide the working class.


Furthermore, the Green Party cannot transform the USA. It is not a 
revolutionary party and does not pretend to be one. However, it offers 
an opportunity to serve as a framework for Marxists to work together to 
advance the class struggle in the same way that the Corbyn-led Labour 
Party does. We cannot choose the organizational forms on the basis of 
Platonic ideals. You have to work with the material at hand. With that 
it mind, supporting the Democratic Party candidates in 2016 would make 
me feel irreparably damaged. Clay of course is entitled to his own opinions.

_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] Fwd: MRZine and the White Helmets

[Mike Sola via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

Louis,

Thanks for your answer.

I was not--by any stretch--"making a stink."

Mike

-- "And you are right. I have no idea who you are and what your politics are. But when you make a 
stink about people rescuing people from bombed out buildings at the very moment hospitals are being 
targeted in East Aleppo, I can put two and two together."



_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] Fwd: MRZine and the White Helmets

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

On 10/1/16 11:13 AM, Mike Sola via Marxism wrote:


I asked what I think is a legitimate question.


Sorry, I had you confused with another Mike.

In terms of your question, I have no problem with the White Helmets 
getting $23 million from the State Department. In fact, I have had no 
problem with the USA giving money to the FSA that used it to buy 
weapons. I only wish that the USA had kept its fucking money and 
withdrew the CIA agents stationed on the Syrian border whose job it was 
to prevent MANPAD's from reaching the rebels.


The USA also armed and trained Mao and Ho Chi Minh's fighters during 
WWII for that matter:


While Ho Chi Minh was in Paise attempting to revitalize the Dong Minh 
Hoi, a U.S. military intelligence officer arrived in Kunming to join the 
OSS unit there. Captain Archimedes “Al” Patti had served in the European 
Theater until January 1944, when he was transferred to Washington, D.C., 
and appointed to the Indochina desk at OSS headquarters. A man of 
considerable swagger and self-confidence, Patti brought to his task a 
strong sense of history and an abiding distrust of the French and their 
legacy in colonial areas. It was from the files in Washington, D.C. that 
he first became aware of the activities of the Vietminh Front and its 
mysterious leader, Ho Chi Minh.


https://louisproyect.org/2013/06/17/imperialism-counterhegemonic-blocs-and-the-syrian-revolution/

And you are right. I have no idea who you are and what your politics 
are. But when you make a stink about people rescuing people from bombed 
out buildings at the very moment hospitals are being targeted in East 
Aleppo, I can put two and two together.

_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] What's up with this?

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

On 10/1/16 10:19 AM, Mark Lause via Marxism wrote:

On the other hand, there can be some confusion with just "Clinton,"
especially if you are discussing a matter of record.   That's because of
Bill, of course.  This is a problem with decadent dynastic politics.



I think one of the first signs of the SWP's departure from the planet 
earth was its insistence that he should be referred to as William 
Clinton and before him James Carter. They thought that using Bill or 
Jimmy was crossing class lines.

_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] What's up with this?

[Mark Lause via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

Yes, this is primarily a Democratic Party tactical choice.  Look at the
bumper stickers, buttons, etc. or how she is discussed in the media by her
supporters.  (You don't see much "Vote for Donnie.")  The ad people would
say that "Hillary" tends to humanize her and make her grandmotherly.  It
further emphasizes gender and consolidates the most ardent of her core
constituency--women who think that her election will automatically be good
for women because she is one.  (A twist on the only plausible argument
supporters made for Obama.)

Then, too, if someone who doesn't support her calls her "Hillary," they can
ask why they call her "Hillary" and the Republican candidate "Trump."

On the other hand, there can be some confusion with just "Clinton,"
especially if you are discussing a matter of record.   That's because of
Bill, of course.  This is a problem with decadent dynastic politics.

ML
_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] Fwd: MRZine and the White Helmets

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

On 10/1/16 9:39 AM, Mike Sola via Marxism wrote:

***

Whether or not the tweet should have been featured, does the content of
the tweet, that the State Department spokesman says it provides $23
million to the White Helmets, not raise any flags?


Sola, you are either a member or a supporter of Jeff Mackler's sect, 
aren't you?


In terms of the point you raise, if you think that defunding a group 
that rescues people out of apartment buildings that were bombed by a 
blood-soaked tyranny you back will advance the "anti-imperialist" cause, 
you are just as sick as Yoshie.

_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

[Marxism] Fwd: MRZine and the White Helmets

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

Hospitals are being bombed in East Aleppo and Yoshie features a tweet 
that follows the White Helmets = American imperialism narrative.


Sick. Even pathological.

http://www.monthlyreview.org/mrzine/
_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

[Marxism] Fwd: ‘Grand Hotel Abyss’: Life among the original anti-consumerists - The Washington Post

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

In the opening chapters of “Grand Hotel Abyss”— the title derives from 
philosopher Gyorgi Lukacs’s derogatory description of what he regarded 
as the Frankfurt School’s radical chic — Jeffries examines the Oedipal 
rebellion of these often mollycoddled sons against uncomprehending 
merchant-fathers, who had assimilated German secular culture and frankly 
disdained working-class East European Jews with their long beards and 
kaftans. (Siegfried Kracauer — remembered now as a film theorist — 
wittily remarked that these last “were Jews who looked so authentic, you 
thought they must be imitations.” ) Naturally, Adorno, Benjamin and 
their intellectual comrades refused to actually work for a living and 
instead blithely and incongruously relied on Daddy’s business profits to 
pay their allowances and fund their anti-capitalist projects.


full: 
https://www.washingtonpost.com/entertainment/books/grand-hotel-abyss-life-among-the-original-anti-consumerists/2016/09/27/db60f46a-84e3-11e6-a3ef-f35afb41797f_story.html

_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

[Marxism] Fwd: bellingcat - Revelations and Confirmations from the MH17 JIT Press Conference - bellingcat

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*



https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2016/09/30/revelations-confirmations-mh17-jit-press-conference/
_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] What's up with this?

[Gary MacLennan via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

Interesting John.  I insist on using Clinton. and Hilary Clinton when there
is some possible confusion.  I do that because I read somewhere that the
calling of Thatcher "Maggie" helped humanize the devil.

The same thing happened here in Qld when the ultra right Premier Johannes
Bjelke Petersen was known to almost all as "Joh".  I insisted that to use
"Joh" was to redeem him by buying into the semi comic rural populism that
was his shtick.


So to me they are Trump and Clinton and I have no time for either.

comradely
.
Gary

On Sat, Oct 1, 2016 at 3:48 PM, John Edmundson via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

>   POSTING RULES & NOTES  
> #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
> #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
> #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
> *
>
>. . . supporting Trump
>
>
>. . .  pro-Trump
>
>
>. . . smearing Hillary
>
>
>. . . negatives around Hillary
>
> Why is it that Trump is always Trump but Clinton (or Rodham Clinton but she
> seems to have dropped that of late . . .) is always Hillary. Do these
> people know her personally or is there a sort of familiarity that the
> Democratic Party engenders in its supporters? Perhaps it's a Democratic
> Party thing, like, you know, like "Hey Bill, how many Somalis 'ya killed
> today?" or "Hey Barack! Dropped any Hellfire missiles on Yemen lately?"
>
> Puzzled,
> John
> _
> Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
> Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/gary.
> maclennan1%40gmail.com
>
_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

[Marxism] further thought

[Gary MacLennan via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

Clay

 I should have made it clear that I regard the current election campaign as
the battle of the monsters. In no sense would I ever sign up to the
pro-Trump Left.  Not ever - never.  If I had a vote it  would go to Jill
Stein.

I also think that there will be no progress in the States (and the world
btw), until the Republican-Democrat Duopoly is broken.


Again comradely greetings

Gary
_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com