Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Many Arrested Inauguration Day Protesters Will Face Felony Rioting Charges, Prosecutors Say « CBS Dallas / Fort Worth

[Thomas via Marxism]

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Narodnaya Volya didn't work out so well either.

T


-Original Message-
>From: Louis Proyect via Marxism <marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu>
>Sent: Jan 22, 2017 3:34 PM
>To: Thomas F Barton <thomasfbar...@earthlink.net>
>Subject: [Marxism] Fwd: Many Arrested Inauguration Day Protesters Will Face 
>Felony Rioting Charges, Prosecutors Say « CBS Dallas / Fort Worth
>

>Black bloc tactics now have very high risks for the perpetually low payoff.
>
>http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2017/01/21/many-inauguration-day-protesters-will-face-felony-rioting-charges-prosecutors-say/
>_
>

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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Many Arrested Inauguration Day Protesters Will Face Felony Rioting Charges, Prosecutors Say « CBS Dallas / Fort Worth

[Sophia Burns via Marxism]

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Black Blocs can be done in an extremely counterproductive and wrong-headed way, 
sure, and they can be targeted by immensely harsh state repression even when 
they get very little done. Same goes for boycotts, strikes, outreach campaigns, 
political discussions, union drives, mass demonstrations, and sit-ins.

I agree that when Black Blocs smash windows just so they can feel the high of 
"being revolutionary" for an evening, they're doing more harm to the cause than 
good - not just by alienating ppl, but also by reinforcing the toxic masculine 
notion of heroic violence as the most radical type of activity. At the same 
time, when there were neo-fascists confronting the mass demo I was at on 
Friday, I was damn grateful that there was a Black Bloc willing to use their 
bodies to physically shield the other protesters. Same goes for situations 
where riot cops are getting out of hand (and even when a Black Bloc is behaving 
poorly, it's virtually always the police that initiate violence). It's 
necessary to have people volunteering to take the punches so everyone else 
doesn't have to, and at their best that's precisely what Black Blocs are.

Best not to fetishize a tactic through either unconditional praise or one-sided 
dismissal.

- Sophia



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 Original Message ----
Subject: Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Many Arrested Inauguration Day Protesters Will Face 
Felony Rioting Charges, Prosecutors Say « CBS Dallas / Fort Worth
Local Time: January 23, 2017 1:56 PM
UTC Time: January 23, 2017 9:56 PM
From: marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu
To: Sophia Burns <sophia.bu...@protonmail.com>

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The problem is, Jeff, that the crafty capitalist legal system has gotten ahead 
of you. It may be true that all 230 charged are not guilty of arson, but they 
can also be charged with the equally felonious conspiracy to commit arson, the 
kind of blanket charge which has imprisoned many a Leftist. Wythe



 Jeff via Marxism <marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:
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> #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
> *
>
> On 2017-01-22 21:34, Louis Proyect via Marxism wrote:
> >
> > Black bloc tactics now have very high risks for the perpetually low
> > payoff.
>
> I think Louis' remark introducing an article about mass arrests was
> unfair (in that context) and wasn't very well thought-out. Although some
> property damage took place in Washington, I doubt that the police
> actually have evidence of such actions by most of the 230 they arrested,
> or that anywhere near that number were directly responsible whether the
> police had evidence on them or not. When the police arrest demonstrators
> under any pretences, the last thing we want to do is lend credence to
> the validity of police charges without a clear picture of what happened
> and why. I'm sure Louis recognizes that principle and wasn't thinking
> when he paired the above remark with an article about mass arrests.
>
> I do think Trump's inclination to use greater police repression is a
> great threat. But of course cases of police using repressive tactics and
> false arrests occur frequently enough regardless of the president. After
> all, this is usually the local police acting under orders of their local
> department, and prosecutors who do not answer to the national president.
> Trump will certainly shift things in the wrong direction, but there will
> still be greater differences between localities. For instance, I don't
> think there were arrests in San Francisco even though there was property
> destruction.
>
> There are lots of points that can be made about black block tactics and
> the organization of united actions. But don't casually equate police
> violence and mass arrests with the presence of the "black block" or
> other identifiable groups, especially in public statements. Arrestees
> deserve the presumption of innocence

Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Many Arrested Inauguration Day Protesters Will Face Felony Rioting Charges, Prosecutors Say « CBS Dallas / Fort Worth

[wytheholt--- via Marxism]

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The problem is, Jeff, that the crafty capitalist legal system has gotten ahead 
of you.  It may be true that all 230 charged are not guilty of arson, but they 
can also be charged with the equally felonious conspiracy to commit arson, the 
kind of blanket charge which has imprisoned many a Leftist.  Wythe



 Jeff via Marxism  wrote: 
>   POSTING RULES & NOTES  
> #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
> #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
> #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
> *
> 
> On 2017-01-22 21:34, Louis Proyect via Marxism wrote:
> > 
> > Black bloc tactics now have very high risks for the perpetually low 
> > payoff.
> 
> I think Louis' remark introducing an article about mass arrests was 
> unfair (in that context) and wasn't very well thought-out. Although some 
> property damage took place in Washington, I doubt that the police 
> actually have evidence of such actions by most of the 230 they arrested, 
> or that anywhere near that number were directly responsible whether the 
> police had evidence on them or not. When the police arrest demonstrators 
> under any pretences, the last thing we want to do is lend credence to 
> the validity of police charges without a clear picture of what happened 
> and why. I'm sure Louis recognizes that principle and wasn't thinking 
> when he paired the above remark with an article about mass arrests.
> 
> I do think Trump's inclination to use greater police repression is a 
> great threat. But of course cases of police using repressive tactics and 
> false arrests occur frequently enough regardless of the president. After 
> all, this is usually the local police acting under orders of their local 
> department, and prosecutors who do not answer to the national president. 
> Trump will certainly shift things in the wrong direction, but there will 
> still be greater differences between localities. For instance, I don't 
> think there were arrests in San Francisco even though there was property 
> destruction.
> 
> There are lots of points that can be made about black block tactics and 
> the organization of united actions. But don't casually equate police 
> violence and mass arrests with the presence of the "black block" or 
> other identifiable groups, especially in public statements. Arrestees 
> deserve the presumption of innocence as is technically professed by the 
> law. In most cases police violence and arrests are political rather than 
> responses to any "criminal" behaviour, and we shouldn't suggest 
> otherwise. Tactics and organization of a demonstration (thus including 
> questions regarding the black block) should be dealt with during the 
> planning of the action, not after the police have issued explanations 
> for their repression. When that explanation includes property damage, it 
> could well be that only a handful were involved, or even that those 
> actions were by a single agent-provocateur which we couldn't possibly 
> prevent.
> 
> I guess one reason I reacted in this case is because I was also once 
> charged with "riot" (though not as a felony) for simply sitting in a 
> sound truck at the front of a demo (one that no one could describe as a 
> "riot"). And anyway, I think it's great that the demonstrations against 
> Trump have started out militant and loud, and with the women's march 
> drawing more to Washington than Trump's victory rally (unless you 
> believe his figures ;-)
> 
> - Jeff
> 
> > 
> > http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2017/01/21/many-inauguration-day-protesters-will-face-felony-rioting-charges-prosecutors-say/
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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Many Arrested Inauguration Day Protesters Will Face Felony Rioting Charges, Prosecutors Say « CBS Dallas / Fort Worth

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 1/23/17 3:28 PM, Jeff via Marxism wrote:


On 2017-01-22 21:34, Louis Proyect via Marxism wrote:


Black bloc tactics now have very high risks for the perpetually low
payoff.


I think Louis' remark introducing an article about mass arrests was
unfair (in that context) and wasn't very well thought-out. Although some
property damage took place in Washington, I doubt that the police
actually have evidence of such actions by most of the 230 they arrested,
or that anywhere near that number were directly responsible whether the
police had evidence on them or not.


Actually, the idiot Natasha Lennard crowed about property damage in a 
Nation Magazine article titled " Neo-Nazi Richard Spencer Got 
Punched—You Can Thank the Black Bloc":


The “anti-capitalist, anti-fascist bloc,” Friday’s black-bloc march, was 
just one among a number of direct actions called by organizers of the 
Disrupt J20 Inauguration Day protests. Unlike Saturday’s vast Women’s 
March, Disrupt J20 aimed to directly impede, delay, and confront the 
inaugural proceedings. This message was delivered with human blockades, 
smashed corporate windows, trash-can fires, a burning limousine, “Make 
America Great Again” caps reduced to ashes, and a blow for Richard 
Spencer. The police responded with fountains of pepper spray, flash-bang 
grenades, and the mass arrest of over 200 people, most of whom now face 
felony riot charges. Along with the Women’s March’s joyful scenes of 
togetherness, the disruptions of J20 should be celebrated as an opening 
salvo of resistance in the era of Trump.


The black bloc I joined met at Logan Circle, some two miles north of the 
inauguration parade route. We peered through bandanas to find friends. 
We gathered in bloc formation behind wood-enforced banners, filled the 
street, and began to march. The bloc takes care to stay together, move 
together, and blend together. Within minutes, bottle rockets were 
shooting skyward and bricks were flying through bank windows. You don’t 
know who does what in a bloc, you don’t look to find out. If bodies run 
out of formation to take a rock to a Starbucks window, they melt back to 
the bloc in as many seconds. Bodies reconciled, kinetic beauty. If that 
sounds to you like a precondition for mob violence, you’re right. But 
this is only a problem if you think there are no righteous mobs, or that 
windows feel pain, or that counter-violence (like punching Richard 
Spencer) is never valid.





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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Many Arrested Inauguration Day Protesters Will Face Felony Rioting Charges, Prosecutors Say « CBS Dallas / Fort Worth

[Jeff via Marxism]

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On 2017-01-22 21:34, Louis Proyect via Marxism wrote:


Black bloc tactics now have very high risks for the perpetually low 
payoff.


I think Louis' remark introducing an article about mass arrests was 
unfair (in that context) and wasn't very well thought-out. Although some 
property damage took place in Washington, I doubt that the police 
actually have evidence of such actions by most of the 230 they arrested, 
or that anywhere near that number were directly responsible whether the 
police had evidence on them or not. When the police arrest demonstrators 
under any pretences, the last thing we want to do is lend credence to 
the validity of police charges without a clear picture of what happened 
and why. I'm sure Louis recognizes that principle and wasn't thinking 
when he paired the above remark with an article about mass arrests.


I do think Trump's inclination to use greater police repression is a 
great threat. But of course cases of police using repressive tactics and 
false arrests occur frequently enough regardless of the president. After 
all, this is usually the local police acting under orders of their local 
department, and prosecutors who do not answer to the national president. 
Trump will certainly shift things in the wrong direction, but there will 
still be greater differences between localities. For instance, I don't 
think there were arrests in San Francisco even though there was property 
destruction.


There are lots of points that can be made about black block tactics and 
the organization of united actions. But don't casually equate police 
violence and mass arrests with the presence of the "black block" or 
other identifiable groups, especially in public statements. Arrestees 
deserve the presumption of innocence as is technically professed by the 
law. In most cases police violence and arrests are political rather than 
responses to any "criminal" behaviour, and we shouldn't suggest 
otherwise. Tactics and organization of a demonstration (thus including 
questions regarding the black block) should be dealt with during the 
planning of the action, not after the police have issued explanations 
for their repression. When that explanation includes property damage, it 
could well be that only a handful were involved, or even that those 
actions were by a single agent-provocateur which we couldn't possibly 
prevent.


I guess one reason I reacted in this case is because I was also once 
charged with "riot" (though not as a felony) for simply sitting in a 
sound truck at the front of a demo (one that no one could describe as a 
"riot"). And anyway, I think it's great that the demonstrations against 
Trump have started out militant and loud, and with the women's march 
drawing more to Washington than Trump's victory rally (unless you 
believe his figures ;-)


- Jeff



http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2017/01/21/many-inauguration-day-protesters-will-face-felony-rioting-charges-prosecutors-say/

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[Marxism] Fwd: Many Arrested Inauguration Day Protesters Will Face Felony Rioting Charges, Prosecutors Say « CBS Dallas / Fort Worth

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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Black bloc tactics now have very high risks for the perpetually low payoff.

http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2017/01/21/many-inauguration-day-protesters-will-face-felony-rioting-charges-prosecutors-say/
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