Re: [Marxism] Article on Borotba
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * DW said: My snarky remark was in reaction to the hugely ignorant statement about America's Jews being identifiable mostly be religious self-identification. I wanted to set the record straight. Ken felt my comment could be perceived as suggesting there may be too many Jews in NYC. Sorry for the confusion. Though, truth be told, the only people I've *EVER* heard make that comment are Jewish New Yorkers. Go figure? Ken Hiebert: Thank you for providing context for your remark. I don't imagine I am offering a startling new revelation if I suggest that there are people out there who would be happy to circulate your comment without context and create a scandal about this list. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Article on Borotba
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * One such group is called the AWL. They suck. - Amith On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 8:51 AM, Ken Hiebert via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote: POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * DW said: My snarky remark was in reaction to the hugely ignorant statement about America's Jews being identifiable mostly be religious self-identification. I wanted to set the record straight. Ken felt my comment could be perceived as suggesting there may be too many Jews in NYC. Sorry for the confusion. Though, truth be told, the only people I've *EVER* heard make that comment are Jewish New Yorkers. Go figure? Ken Hiebert: Thank you for providing context for your remark. I don't imagine I am offering a startling new revelation if I suggest that there are people out there who would be happy to circulate your comment without context and create a scandal about this list. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/amithrgupta%40gmail.com _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Article on Borotba
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * There are two different, even if perhaps slightly overlapping, issues here. One is whether AWL is pro-Zionist and Islamophobic. The answer is yes, without question, and it can be documented if need be. The other is whether AWL's take on Ukraine is accurate. It very well might be. 90% of what the Stalinists in WWP/PSL say is accurate. But as with AWL, interpreting everything they say, and the spin they put on it, requires extra care given their bankrupt politics. On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 10:48 AM, Sergii Kutnii via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote: POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * There's an important cultural difference that comes to play here: while in the US Jewishness is seen as a religious identity, in the Eastern Europe it is more of a cultural or ethnic identity so a Christian Jew is not an oxymoron. Yes, it was not always so, and Jewishness has been defined through Judaism in pre-1917 Russian Empire but this is an important example of how an identity can be redefined over time. AWL does not, to the best of my knowledge, identify themselves as Jewish neither in terms of religion nor in terms of culture, so they don't seem to have a material stake in the conflict. They just have an idea of how a conflict in a distant land that does not affect them directly should be resolved. Without a material interest in the existence of Israel, this is not enough, in my view, to call anyone a Zionist. Should an American who thinks that Scottish independency is a good idea be called a Scottish nationalist? _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/acpollack2%40gmail.com _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Article on Borotba
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * There's an important cultural difference that comes to play here: while in the US Jewishness is seen as a religious identity, in the Eastern Europe it is more of a cultural or ethnic identity so a Christian Jew is not an oxymoron. Yes, it was not always so, and Jewishness has been defined through Judaism in pre-1917 Russian Empire but this is an important example of how an identity can be redefined over time. AWL does not, to the best of my knowledge, identify themselves as Jewish neither in terms of religion nor in terms of culture, so they don't seem to have a material stake in the conflict. They just have an idea of how a conflict in a distant land that does not affect them directly should be resolved. Without a material interest in the existence of Israel, this is not enough, in my view, to call anyone a Zionist. Should an American who thinks that Scottish independency is a good idea be called a Scottish nationalist? _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Article on Borotba
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * There's an important cultural difference that comes to play here: while in the US Jewishness is seen as a religious identity, in the Eastern Europe it is more of a cultural or ethnic identity... WTF??? Obviously you've never been to Jerusalem...that is, NEW YORK CITY, have you? You view of American Jewish identify is false. D. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Article on Borotba
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * I admit I've never been to the US, so I may be wrong. But from the comments of the US and British leftists it seems that religious identities are more important in the anglophone world than they are in the ex-USSR. I think this has something to do with the legacy of Protestantism and slightly different ways of secularisation. As for AWL, it's interesting to me, why they can't be called Ukrainian patriots for their position on Ukraine but can be called Zionists for their attitude towards Israel? Also, here exists a whole lot of nuances of the national question. Take this 'death to the settlers' issue, for example. Unfortunately, Ukraine has been a place where such calls materialised during the Volhynia Massacres. No, such calls by the oppressed are not innocent and should be taken seriously. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Article on Borotba
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * DW said: WTF??? Obviously you've never been to Jerusalem...that is, NEW YORK CITY, have you? Ken Hiebert replies: Whatever you may have intended, this comment could be read as a complaint that there are too many Jews in New York. I don't know how many Jews there are in New York, but I hope they all feel at home there. I wouldn't want to suggest to any of them that they might be more welcome in Israel. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Article on Borotba
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * New York City population: 8,405,837 Jewish population of New York City: 2,028,200 [Wikipedia] Not exactly Jerusalem. So much for stupid stereotypes. T -Original Message- From: Ken Hiebert via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Sent: Jan 21, 2015 5:28 PM To: Thomas F Barton thomasfbar...@earthlink.net Cc: dwalters...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Marxism] Article on Borotba POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * DW said: WTF??? Obviously you've never been to Jerusalem...that is, NEW YORK CITY, have you? Ken Hiebert replies: Whatever you may have intended, this comment could be read as a complaint that there are too many Jews in New York. I don't know how many Jews there are in New York, but I hope they all feel at home there. I wouldn't want to suggest to any of them that they might be more welcome in Israel. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/thomasfbarton%40earthlink.net _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Article on Borotba
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * 2 million Jews in New York, considering there are only about ~15 million Jews worldwide, some 40% of which live in Israel, is a fairly massive number. Again I think you guys are trying to find something anti-Jewish about his comment. Moreover, the issue originally was Zionism and whether AWL's Zionist politics undo their credibility about Borotba. Regardless of how one feels about Borotba, the AWL is in fact a Zionist propaganda outlet and their pamphlets are ridden with Israeli propaganda. One does not need to be a Jew to be a Zionist. Zionism is not simply Israeli nationalism, it is a colonial movement that originated outside the Middle East and whose many adherents were as anti-Jewish as they were Jewish. The AWL shares the worldview and politics of this movement, despite some minor reservations. It deserves no quarter. - Amith On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 6:04 PM, Charles Faulkner via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote: POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * for what it's worth i didn't see it so much as a stereotype as an attempt to say, crudely perhaps, that it is easy to see that people in the u.s. do not understand jewish life as primarily religious given the rich, long standing and well delineated cultural life of jews in new york, where 1 in 4 actually is pretty impressive. in fact i would go farther. there seems to be a tendency abroad to see americans monochromatically. while i have no problem in believing religion is less relevant in countries from the former soviet union, i'm detecting an inclination of some to tar everyone in america with religion's brush. is religion pervasive in america? yes. and it taints everyone's understanding? silly. - Original Message - From: Thomas via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu To: Charles Faulkner lacena...@comcast.net Cc: dwalters...@gmail.com Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2015 2:41:16 PM Subject: Re: [Marxism] Article on Borotba POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * New York City population: 8,405,837 Jewish population of New York City: 2,028,200 [Wikipedia] Not exactly Jerusalem. So much for stupid stereotypes. T -Original Message- From: Ken Hiebert via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Sent: Jan 21, 2015 5:28 PM To: Thomas F Barton thomasfbar...@earthlink.net Cc: dwalters...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Marxism] Article on Borotba POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * DW said: WTF??? Obviously you've never been to Jerusalem...that is, NEW YORK CITY, have you? Ken Hiebert replies: Whatever you may have intended, this comment could be read as a complaint that there are too many Jews in New York. I don't know how many Jews there are in New York, but I hope they all feel at home there. I wouldn't want to suggest to any of them that they might be more welcome in Israel. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/thomasfbarton%40earthlink.net _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/lacenaire%40comcast.net _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/amithrgupta%40gmail.com _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Article on Borotba
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * thanks amith. understood. - Original Message - From: A.R. G amithrgu...@gmail.com To: Charles Faulkner lacena...@comcast.net Cc: Marxism Serve marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2015 3:59:36 PM Subject: Re: [Marxism] Article on Borotba Hi Charles, I am responding to the entire list, not you specifically. I was agreeing with you. - Amith On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 6:39 PM, Charles Faulkner lacena...@comcast.net wrote: this is the second time you've piggy-backed my message, said you guys, and then expressed the exact opposite of what i wrote. may i ask why you do that? do you understand that that can cause confusion and resentment? From: A.R. G amithrgu...@gmail.com To: Charles Faulkner lacena...@comcast.net , Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2015 3:25:18 PM Subject: Re: [Marxism] Article on Borotba 2 million Jews in New York, considering there are only about ~15 million Jews worldwide, some 40% of which live in Israel, is a fairly massive number. Again I think you guys are trying to find something anti-Jewish about his comment. Moreover, the issue originally was Zionism and whether AWL's Zionist politics undo their credibility about Borotba. Regardless of how one feels about Borotba, the AWL is in fact a Zionist propaganda outlet and their pamphlets are ridden with Israeli propaganda. One does not need to be a Jew to be a Zionist. Zionism is not simply Israeli nationalism, it is a colonial movement that originated outside the Middle East and whose many adherents were as anti-Jewish as they were Jewish. The AWL shares the worldview and politics of this movement, despite some minor reservations. It deserves no quarter. - Amith On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 6:04 PM, Charles Faulkner via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote: blockquote POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * for what it's worth i didn't see it so much as a stereotype as an attempt to say, crudely perhaps, that it is easy to see that people in the u.s. do not understand jewish life as primarily religious given the rich, long standing and well delineated cultural life of jews in new york, where 1 in 4 actually is pretty impressive. in fact i would go farther. there seems to be a tendency abroad to see americans monochromatically. while i have no problem in believing religion is less relevant in countries from the former soviet union, i'm detecting an inclination of some to tar everyone in america with religion's brush. is religion pervasive in america? yes. and it taints everyone's understanding? silly. - Original Message - From: Thomas via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu To: Charles Faulkner lacena...@comcast.net Cc: dwalters...@gmail.com Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2015 2:41:16 PM Subject: Re: [Marxism] Article on Borotba POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * New York City population: 8,405,837 Jewish population of New York City: 2,028,200 [Wikipedia] Not exactly Jerusalem. So much for stupid stereotypes. T -Original Message- From: Ken Hiebert via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Sent: Jan 21, 2015 5:28 PM To: Thomas F Barton thomasfbar...@earthlink.net Cc: dwalters...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Marxism] Article on Borotba POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * DW said: WTF??? Obviously you've never been to Jerusalem...that is, NEW YORK CITY, have you? Ken Hiebert replies: Whatever you may have intended, this comment could be read as a complaint that there are too many Jews in New York. I don't know how many Jews there are in New York, but I hope they all feel at home there. I wouldn't want to suggest to any of them that they might be more welcome in Israel
Re: [Marxism] Article on Borotba
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Hi Charles, I am responding to the entire list, not you specifically. I was agreeing with you. - Amith On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 6:39 PM, Charles Faulkner lacena...@comcast.net wrote: this is the second time you've piggy-backed my message, said you guys, and then expressed the exact opposite of what i wrote. may i ask why you do that? do you understand that that can cause confusion and resentment? -- *From: *A.R. G amithrgu...@gmail.com *To: *Charles Faulkner lacena...@comcast.net, Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu *Sent: *Wednesday, January 21, 2015 3:25:18 PM *Subject: *Re: [Marxism] Article on Borotba 2 million Jews in New York, considering there are only about ~15 million Jews worldwide, some 40% of which live in Israel, is a fairly massive number. Again I think you guys are trying to find something anti-Jewish about his comment. Moreover, the issue originally was Zionism and whether AWL's Zionist politics undo their credibility about Borotba. Regardless of how one feels about Borotba, the AWL is in fact a Zionist propaganda outlet and their pamphlets are ridden with Israeli propaganda. One does not need to be a Jew to be a Zionist. Zionism is not simply Israeli nationalism, it is a colonial movement that originated outside the Middle East and whose many adherents were as anti-Jewish as they were Jewish. The AWL shares the worldview and politics of this movement, despite some minor reservations. It deserves no quarter. - Amith On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 6:04 PM, Charles Faulkner via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote: POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * for what it's worth i didn't see it so much as a stereotype as an attempt to say, crudely perhaps, that it is easy to see that people in the u.s. do not understand jewish life as primarily religious given the rich, long standing and well delineated cultural life of jews in new york, where 1 in 4 actually is pretty impressive. in fact i would go farther. there seems to be a tendency abroad to see americans monochromatically. while i have no problem in believing religion is less relevant in countries from the former soviet union, i'm detecting an inclination of some to tar everyone in america with religion's brush. is religion pervasive in america? yes. and it taints everyone's understanding? silly. - Original Message - From: Thomas via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu To: Charles Faulkner lacena...@comcast.net Cc: dwalters...@gmail.com Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2015 2:41:16 PM Subject: Re: [Marxism] Article on Borotba POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * New York City population: 8,405,837 Jewish population of New York City: 2,028,200 [Wikipedia] Not exactly Jerusalem. So much for stupid stereotypes. T -Original Message- From: Ken Hiebert via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Sent: Jan 21, 2015 5:28 PM To: Thomas F Barton thomasfbar...@earthlink.net Cc: dwalters...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Marxism] Article on Borotba POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * DW said: WTF??? Obviously you've never been to Jerusalem...that is, NEW YORK CITY, have you? Ken Hiebert replies: Whatever you may have intended, this comment could be read as a complaint that there are too many Jews in New York. I don't know how many Jews there are in New York, but I hope they all feel at home there. I wouldn't want to suggest to any of them that they might be more welcome in Israel. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/thomasfbarton%40earthlink.net
Re: [Marxism] Article on Borotba
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * this is the second time you've piggy-backed my message, said you guys, and then expressed the exact opposite of what i wrote. may i ask why you do that? do you understand that that can cause confusion and resentment? - Original Message - From: A.R. G amithrgu...@gmail.com To: Charles Faulkner lacena...@comcast.net, Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2015 3:25:18 PM Subject: Re: [Marxism] Article on Borotba 2 million Jews in New York, considering there are only about ~15 million Jews worldwide, some 40% of which live in Israel, is a fairly massive number. Again I think you guys are trying to find something anti-Jewish about his comment. Moreover, the issue originally was Zionism and whether AWL's Zionist politics undo their credibility about Borotba. Regardless of how one feels about Borotba, the AWL is in fact a Zionist propaganda outlet and their pamphlets are ridden with Israeli propaganda. One does not need to be a Jew to be a Zionist. Zionism is not simply Israeli nationalism, it is a colonial movement that originated outside the Middle East and whose many adherents were as anti-Jewish as they were Jewish. The AWL shares the worldview and politics of this movement, despite some minor reservations. It deserves no quarter. - Amith On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 6:04 PM, Charles Faulkner via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote: POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * for what it's worth i didn't see it so much as a stereotype as an attempt to say, crudely perhaps, that it is easy to see that people in the u.s. do not understand jewish life as primarily religious given the rich, long standing and well delineated cultural life of jews in new york, where 1 in 4 actually is pretty impressive. in fact i would go farther. there seems to be a tendency abroad to see americans monochromatically. while i have no problem in believing religion is less relevant in countries from the former soviet union, i'm detecting an inclination of some to tar everyone in america with religion's brush. is religion pervasive in america? yes. and it taints everyone's understanding? silly. - Original Message - From: Thomas via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu To: Charles Faulkner lacena...@comcast.net Cc: dwalters...@gmail.com Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2015 2:41:16 PM Subject: Re: [Marxism] Article on Borotba POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * New York City population: 8,405,837 Jewish population of New York City: 2,028,200 [Wikipedia] Not exactly Jerusalem. So much for stupid stereotypes. T -Original Message- From: Ken Hiebert via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Sent: Jan 21, 2015 5:28 PM To: Thomas F Barton thomasfbar...@earthlink.net Cc: dwalters...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Marxism] Article on Borotba POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * DW said: WTF??? Obviously you've never been to Jerusalem...that is, NEW YORK CITY, have you? Ken Hiebert replies: Whatever you may have intended, this comment could be read as a complaint that there are too many Jews in New York. I don't know how many Jews there are in New York, but I hope they all feel at home there. I wouldn't want to suggest to any of them that they might be more welcome in Israel. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/thomasfbarton%40earthlink.net _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/lacenaire%40comcast.net
Re: [Marxism] Article on Borotba
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * for what it's worth i didn't see it so much as a stereotype as an attempt to say, crudely perhaps, that it is easy to see that people in the u.s. do not understand jewish life as primarily religious given the rich, long standing and well delineated cultural life of jews in new york, where 1 in 4 actually is pretty impressive. in fact i would go farther. there seems to be a tendency abroad to see americans monochromatically. while i have no problem in believing religion is less relevant in countries from the former soviet union, i'm detecting an inclination of some to tar everyone in america with religion's brush. is religion pervasive in america? yes. and it taints everyone's understanding? silly. - Original Message - From: Thomas via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu To: Charles Faulkner lacena...@comcast.net Cc: dwalters...@gmail.com Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2015 2:41:16 PM Subject: Re: [Marxism] Article on Borotba POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * New York City population: 8,405,837 Jewish population of New York City: 2,028,200 [Wikipedia] Not exactly Jerusalem. So much for stupid stereotypes. T -Original Message- From: Ken Hiebert via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Sent: Jan 21, 2015 5:28 PM To: Thomas F Barton thomasfbar...@earthlink.net Cc: dwalters...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Marxism] Article on Borotba POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * DW said: WTF??? Obviously you've never been to Jerusalem...that is, NEW YORK CITY, have you? Ken Hiebert replies: Whatever you may have intended, this comment could be read as a complaint that there are too many Jews in New York. I don't know how many Jews there are in New York, but I hope they all feel at home there. I wouldn't want to suggest to any of them that they might be more welcome in Israel. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/thomasfbarton%40earthlink.net _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/lacenaire%40comcast.net _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Article on Borotba
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * I didn't get that at all. I thought we were talking about how Jews identify themselves in America, it is just as much a race/ethnicity in the US as it is in Europe. As for calling NYC Jerusalem it has plenty of Jews. IMO they should be able to live wherever they want, NYC or Tel Aviv or even in the West Bank, but not as settler-colonists. - Amith On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 5:28 PM, Ken Hiebert via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote: POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * DW said: WTF??? Obviously you've never been to Jerusalem...that is, NEW YORK CITY, have you? Ken Hiebert replies: Whatever you may have intended, this comment could be read as a complaint that there are too many Jews in New York. I don't know how many Jews there are in New York, but I hope they all feel at home there. I wouldn't want to suggest to any of them that they might be more welcome in Israel. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/amithrgupta%40gmail.com _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Article on Borotba
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Gawddd! First, though you might not know it, was born in NYC and I'm Jewish. Everyone knows it is the capital of Jewish culture, or, as my uncle Albert used to say, if it ain't, it should be. That Jewish Americans only make up 20% of the population of the City... you ought to know more about the role Jews played after 1900 in developing that City's culture. Jerusalem, the future capital of Palestine, only comes in at 780,000 and not all of them are Jewish.So, at Passover here in California, when we say Next Year in Jerusalem, it doesn't meant the Zionist entity to me My first impression of Israel when I went there as a young teenager was that there were, seemingly, a lot Israelis, but very few Jews. I'll let you digest the implications of that. My snarky remark was in reaction to the hugely ignorant statement about America's Jews being identifiable mostly be religious self-identification. I wanted to set the record straight. Ken felt my comment could be perceived as suggesting there may be too many Jews in NYC. Sorry for the confusion. Though, truth be told, the only people I've *EVER* heard make that comment are Jewish New Yorkers. Go figure? DW _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Article on Borotba
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Also from Workers Liberty: http://www.workersliberty.org/story/2007/02/06/boycott-jew-hunt-wont-help-palestinians Jewels within this shitty pamphlet from this freakish charlatan crank organization: The catastrophe that befell the Palestinians in 1948 could not have happened had not a coalition of Arab states invaded Israel. In that war, Egypt proclaimed its war aim to be to drive the Jews into the sea. Their idea of liberating Palestine demands the destruction of Israel. It implies support for Arab states who still think they can destroy Israel. Israel came into being as a result of the greatest single crime in human history, the Holocaust of six million Jews at the hands of the Nazis. It was this crime, the preparation for it, and its aftermath, that, in the 30s and 40s, led to large scale Jewish migration to Palestine, and turned Jews throughout the world into Zionists. http://www.workersliberty.org/story/2012/11/21/river-sea From the river to the sea? Sorry, but there’s no way to be polite about this. That chant, and the PSC’s own logo of a map of Palestine from the river to the sea, and the subsequent chanting of “Israel out of Palestine” really could mean only one thingThe Jews are to leave “Palestine” — from the river to the sea. This is an exterminationist agenda. I don’t think that’s too strong a term. http://www.workersliberty.org/story/2012/03/28/will-far-left-learn-toulouse-murders - I don't have the patience or the stomach to continue sifting through this kind of garbage, but Workers' Liberty is a racist, Zionist propaganda organization masquerading as a leftist group, and people affiliated with it deserve to be flogged in the street. They have coalesced around the British pseudo-left's obsession with trying to find anti-Semitism everywhere, including any meaningful solidarity against the regime that is colonizing and destroying Palestine. In their view, Israel is a little victim surrounded by mean angry Arabs, and any attempt to oppose it or single it out for fairly obvious reasons is some kind of Nazi-Stalinist crime against the Jews. And they shamefully exploit the Holocaust to do so. As such I doubt I can trust their analysis about fascism anywhere else. They have no credibility. - Amith On Tue, Jan 20, 2015 at 2:51 PM, jay rothermel via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote: POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * FYI http://www.workersliberty.org/node/24525 _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/amithrgupta%40gmail.com _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Article on Borotba
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 1/20/15 4:58 PM, A.R. G via Marxism wrote: I don't have the patience or the stomach to continue sifting through this kind of garbage, but Workers' Liberty is a racist, Zionist propaganda organization masquerading as a leftist group, and people affiliated with it deserve to be flogged in the street. So what are you saying? That Borotba is to be supported because Workers Liberty is Zionist? You need to analyze Ukraine on its own terms. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Article on Borotba
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 1/20/15 5:14 PM, A.R. G wrote: Or that we should analyze Borotba on its own terms without asking a Zionist organization. We have had plenty of feedback on Borotba from Marxmail subscriber Sergii Kutnii, a Ukrainian member of the Autonomist Workers Union. Here is their statement and other groups on the left about Borotba. You don't need to read a single page of AWL to understand that they are Great Russian chauvinists. STATEMENT OF LEFT AND ANARCHIST ORGANIZATIONS ABOUT “BOROTBA” ORGANIZATION (ENGLISH, GERMAN, POLISH, FRENCH, SERBO-CROATIAN, LITHUANIAN) Березень 03, 18:30, 2014 Print This Article 16 Comments paper dragons1 We, the collectives and members of Ukrainian leftist and anarchist organizations, announce that “Borotba” union is not a part of our movement. During the whole time of this political project’s existence, its members tended to be committed to the most discredited, conservative and authoritarian “leftist” regimes and ideologies, which do not represent the interests of working classes in any way. ”Borotba” has proved itself an organization with a non-transparent funding mechanism and unscrupulous principles of cooperation. It uses hired workers, who are not even the members of the organization. The local cells of “Borotba” took part in the protest actions together with PSPU (Progressive Socialist Party of Ukraine, which is an anti-Semitic, racist, and clerical party, and has no relation to the world socialist movement) and with Kharkiv pro-government, anti-Semitic and homophobic group “Oplot”; and are known for their linkage with an infamous journalist O.Chalenko, who openly stands for Russian chauvinism. Recent events demonstrate that the leadership of this union, following the example of the “Communist” Party of Ukraine, have been overtly defending the interests of president Yanukovych, justifying the use of weapons by security forces and denying the acts of unjustified violence and cruelty on their part, the use of tortures and other forms of political terror. The representatives of “Borotba” take an extremely biased stance concerning the composition of protest movement, which is represented both on their own web resources and in the media commentaries. According to them, the Maidan protests are supported exclusively by nationalists and radical right, and were aimed only at a coup d’etat (“fascist putsch”). We stand on antifascist positions, and our activists have often been victims of radical rightists’ attacks. We do not support some of the Maidan’s ideas, and are against the bourgeois opposition. We also condemn conservative, nationalist, and radical right sentiments, which are tolerated in the protesters’ circles nowadays. However, we emphasize that labeling all active citizens as “fascists” is not only false, but also dangerous. This one-sidedness is fueling chauvinist hysteria and divides society, which is only favourable for the ruling class. On January 24th, the region council deputy and “Borotba” representative Oleksiy Albu participated in the protection of Odesa region administration building against “Nazis”, accompanied by Russian Cossacks and nationalists (“Slavic Unity”) and the members of ruling Party of Regions and Communist Party. In his later interview, he admitted his cooperation with the Security Service of Ukraine. On March 1st, “Borotba” activists together with pro-Putin organizations took part in the assault on Kharkiv region state administration, which resulted in raising of a Russian flag and severe beating of many Kharkiv Maidan activists, including a leftist poet Serhiy Zhadan. The members of “Borotba” call all of this “an antifascist action” and claim that these violent actions were aimed against radical rightists. Therefore, we conclude that the leadership of “Borotba” union not only support the authoritarian Soviet past, but also consciously manipulate public opinion, and are acting as “pocket revolutionaries” of the ruling elites. Their activity at the moment does not have anything in common with leftist politics and class struggle, and is aimed at the support of pro-Putinist forces behind the mask of “antifascism” and “communism”. Thus, the actions of this organization are discrediting both its name (which is derived from revolutionaries-“borotbists” of the beginning of the XXth century) and all the modern Ukrainian left in general. Moreover, “Borotba” does not disdain overt lies and fact manipulations, deceiving foreign leftists and antifascists. We urge all the conscious revolutionaries, who are still the members of “Borotba”, to leave this treacherous,
Re: [Marxism] Article on Borotba
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Or that we should analyze Borotba on its own terms without asking a Zionist organization. - Amith On Tue, Jan 20, 2015 at 5:05 PM, Louis Proyect l...@panix.com wrote: On 1/20/15 4:58 PM, A.R. G via Marxism wrote: I don't have the patience or the stomach to continue sifting through this kind of garbage, but Workers' Liberty is a racist, Zionist propaganda organization masquerading as a leftist group, and people affiliated with it deserve to be flogged in the street. So what are you saying? That Borotba is to be supported because Workers Liberty is Zionist? You need to analyze Ukraine on its own terms. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Article on Borotba
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*
That definition is completely false. For one, there are plenty of Christian
Zionists and the early Zionists themselves were in many cases
non-religious. It also ignores a long history of Zionism among
anti-Semites. For another, saying that Jews need a homeland is a far cry
from establishing one by forced (and ongoing) ethnic cleansing of Palestine
to create and maintain a settler-colony, which has been the intention of
Zionists since the days of Jabotinsky and Ben Gurion.
The world is not post-Zionist, even by your own strange definition.
Furthermore, recognizing that a solution to the Zionist catastrophe upon
Palestine could allow Israelis to continue living there is hardly the same
as maintaining their new nation -- or reducing those who disagree or
demand their exile to anti-Semites. The rejection of the presence of
Israeli settler-colonists in all of Palestine, even if it isn't realistic
or a particularly good solution, does not amount to racism, any more than
indigenous groups in America demanding the exile of present-day Americans
is racist. In both cases the opposition is based on rejection of the
settler-colony, not the race/religion of the colonists. Again, I don't
agree with such proposals and I think those proposals are motivated more by
anti-colonial outrage than practicality, but it doesn't make such people
into anti-Semites as the AWL would have you believe.
The AWL is a Zionist group and the only way you can say otherwise is by
redefining Zionism. Furthermore, if Zionist means Jew on some level to
you then are you repeating the propaganda of both Zionists and
anti-Semites. Why on earth would it matter to you whether or not the AWL is
Jewish? Does that make their horrific beliefs more acceptable? Or less
acceptable?
- Amith
On Tue, Jan 20, 2015 at 6:12 PM, Sergii Kutnii mnkuts...@gmail.com wrote:
A Zionist organisation, in my view, would be the one
1) identifying itself as Jewish
2) proclaiming that Jews need a homeland for them.
AWL, as far as I know, does not meet the condition 1.
The problem is, we live in a post-Zionist situation where an entire
new nation of Israelis has been created and there have been a couple
of generations of Israelis having no other home.
On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 12:50 AM, A.R. G amithrgu...@gmail.com wrote:
So read their pamphlets then. Honestly, what do you have to do to count
as a
Zionist organization? Do you have to regurgitate Israeli nationalist
historiography about the 1948 war? Check. Do you have to reduce
anti-Israel
sentiment to anti-Semitism? Check. Do you have to claim that left-wing
anti-Zionism is little more than latent Stalinism (like the kind that
supports Syria or Iran)? Check. Do you have to exploit the Holocaust to
portray Zionist settlers as little more than victims? Check. Do you have
to
accuse boycotters of being genocidal in their intentions? Check. Do you
have
to portray Zionism as a reaction to anti-Semitism, rather than an
extension
of it? Check. Do you have to witch-hunt left groups that rally against
the
massacre(s) in Gaza, as though they are unfairly singling out the
regime
occupying Palestine? Check.
They are the embodiment of the failure of some groups on the left to
engage racism and colonialism properly, as the Charlie Hebdo fiasco has
shown us. They have taken their own misplaced, ahistoric concerns about
anti-Semitism and decided to impose those concerns onto any kind of
meaningful campaign against Zionism, whether by leftists, Muslims,
whoever,
as well as Muslims more generally. They have taken up the same garbage
line
as The Militant. And they are, in my view, leftists in name only. If the
left includes people who peddle Israeli propaganda and stigmatize
anti-Zionism then I'll gladly step outside of it.
- Amith
On Tue, Jan 20, 2015 at 5:42 PM, Sergii Kutnii via Marxism
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote:
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Well, identifying AWL - a British organisation not trying even to
build an interantional - as Zionists is something jaw-dropping to me.
i think the ones making such accusations should provide evidence about
AWL's link to Israel or maybe its continuity with historical Zionist
organisations. AWL disagreeing with someone in the Western left on the
approach towards the Israeli-Arab conflict is certainly
Re: [Marxism] Article on Borotba
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * So read their pamphlets then. Honestly, what do you have to do to count as a Zionist organization? Do you have to regurgitate Israeli nationalist historiography about the 1948 war? Check. Do you have to reduce anti-Israel sentiment to anti-Semitism? Check. Do you have to claim that left-wing anti-Zionism is little more than latent Stalinism (like the kind that supports Syria or Iran)? Check. Do you have to exploit the Holocaust to portray Zionist settlers as little more than victims? Check. Do you have to accuse boycotters of being genocidal in their intentions? Check. Do you have to portray Zionism as a reaction to anti-Semitism, rather than an extension of it? Check. Do you have to witch-hunt left groups that rally against the massacre(s) in Gaza, as though they are unfairly singling out the regime occupying Palestine? Check. They are the embodiment of the failure of some groups on the left to engage racism and colonialism properly, as the Charlie Hebdo fiasco has shown us. They have taken their own misplaced, ahistoric concerns about anti-Semitism and decided to impose those concerns onto any kind of meaningful campaign against Zionism, whether by leftists, Muslims, whoever, as well as Muslims more generally. They have taken up the same garbage line as *The Militant*. And they are, in my view, leftists in name only. If the left includes people who peddle Israeli propaganda and stigmatize anti-Zionism then I'll gladly step outside of it. - Amith On Tue, Jan 20, 2015 at 5:42 PM, Sergii Kutnii via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote: POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Well, identifying AWL - a British organisation not trying even to build an interantional - as Zionists is something jaw-dropping to me. i think the ones making such accusations should provide evidence about AWL's link to Israel or maybe its continuity with historical Zionist organisations. AWL disagreeing with someone in the Western left on the approach towards the Israeli-Arab conflict is certainly not enough to classify them as Zionists for me. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/amithrgupta%40gmail.com _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Article on Borotba
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Well, identifying AWL - a British organisation not trying even to build an interantional - as Zionists is something jaw-dropping to me. i think the ones making such accusations should provide evidence about AWL's link to Israel or maybe its continuity with historical Zionist organisations. AWL disagreeing with someone in the Western left on the approach towards the Israeli-Arab conflict is certainly not enough to classify them as Zionists for me. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Article on Borotba
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * FYI http://www.workersliberty.org/node/24525 _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
