Re: [Marxism] Greta Thunberg, AOC and the Green New Deal - Climate and the Money Trail

[Patrick Bond via Marxism]

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The climate justice movement has for more than a dozen years set up a 
contrasting pole compared to 'climate action' - with very different 
principles, analyses, strategies, tactics and alliances. In recent 
months we've seen stronger moves from institutions in the 'action' camp 
to co-opt justice language up to a point, but the very clear divisions 
remain.


(I'm not sure the Wrong Kind of Green critics are following this 
historic trajectory, but I haven't read all of the recent posts; 
however, their occasional Third Worldism, especially in relation to Evo 
Morales' government in Bolivia, is an indication of hostility to the CJ 
movements of the Andes.)


On 2019/09/28 11:36 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism wrote:
... I have a different take on this stuff than A. O-C, Greta Thunberg, 
Bill McKibben and even Naomi Klein. I think that we are headed toward 
massive crises because neither wing of the capitalist class is capable 
of what they call "de-growth". 


CJ politics generally includes degrowth, applied to the Global North. 
There are problems, however, with degrowth framings of capitalism I'll 
address in another post soon, and improvements offered from Latin 
America and other sites of struggle. Here's one take: 
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0921800918307626


On 2019/09/28 11:36 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism wrote:
The Paris Accords were woefully lacking but we have to speak out in 
favor of enforcing them even if that puts on the same side as 
Goldman-Sachs. 


Here I think you're making a mistake by legitimizing Paris, which 
ultimately needs to be replaced. It is non-binding, with no 
accountability or penalty system - thanks to an alliance between Obama 
and four the BRICS countries in 2009. The costs of climate-related “Loss 
and Damage” are being disproportionately borne by Africans and others 
who did the least to cause the problems, yet thanks to a Paris 
provision, they have no recourse to claiming “climate debt” and polluter 
liability in lawsuits. The Paris Climate Agreement reintroduced the 
unworkable carbon trading gimmick, which failed miserably over the prior 
15 years, through the back door. Moreover, Paris negotiators neglected 
to include several major categories of emitters, especially militaries, 
airplanes and ships. There was no attempt to penalize fossil fuel 
companies, or to incentivize their Just Transition to post-carbon energy 
supply, nor even rhetorically to endorse the need to leave fossil fuels 
underground. No progress was made to enhance poor countries' acquisition 
of climate-friendly technologies that are currently protected by 
Intellectual Property. As a result, when in June 2017, just over four 
months after taking power, U.S. president Donald Trump announced he 
would withdraw the largest historic emitter from the deal, there was no 
punishment whatsoever. Not even a carbon tax (as even Joe Stiglitz had 
called for), much less sanctions.


While 'climate action' celebrated Paris, 'climate justice' condemned 
these fatal flaws.


On 9/28/19 5:05 PM, Ralph Johansen wrote:

There are highly paid policy wonks and apologists for capital in think 
tanks and right wing funded foundations, those with control of the 
media, the IMF, World Bank, EU and transnational capitalist agencies 
all over the capitalist world, some of whom no longer think denial is 
going to get it - the evidence is too palpable - and they are instead 
pondering how they can divert attention and attack from those with the 
real power, the real culprits,

On 2019/09/29 12:51 AM, Ralph Johansen via Marxism wrote:
...enormously powerful people have the means and every design, not 
just to profit from windmills but to seize the issue of climate 
disaster and run with it in directions that will mean still more years 
of evasion, run-away profit-taking, increasing inequality and 
confusion, untold suffering for most of us, irreversible destruction 
of our planet, buttressing of capital as solution or only alternative, 
more of the "lesser evil," more delay in tackling the real problem, 
exacerbation of these enormous contradictions, and that we're kind of 
facing a diversion point that we should be very wary of, chilled by, 
cataclysmally frightened about. Then this discussion is put to rest, 
to that extent. 


Ralph, I think that the division here is not only in relation to climate 
action and climate justice. It's whether the 'internalization of 
externalities' can be accomplished using market mechanisms like carbon 
trading and offsetting (and even a carbon tax). The adoption of 
'neoliberal nature' policies and practices has been underway for several 
decades

Re: [Marxism] Greta Thunberg, AOC and the Green New Deal - Climate and the Money Trail

[Ralph Johansen via Marxism]

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Louis Proyect wrote

On 9/28/19 5:05 PM, Ralph Johansen wrote:

 *

   There are highly paid policy wonks and apologists for
   capital in think tanks and right wing funded foundations,
   those with control of the media, the IMF, World Bank, EU and
   transnational capitalist agencies all over the capitalist
   world, some of whom no longer think denial is going to get
   it - the evidence is too palpable - and they are instead
   pondering how they can divert attention and attack from
   those with the real power, the real culprits, corporate
   perpetrators of climate destruction, Syngenta, Monsanto,
   Cargill, ADM, Dupont, the oil and gas and transport.
   banking, industrial and commercial and distributional
   factions who know that it's either growth or death for
   capitalism, to government epigones in the process who are
   hopelessly bought and kept in place by their corporate
   sponsors. Including Democrats, those who would reform
   capitalism to save us all as well like the current pack of
   presidential candidates.



   I don't give a good god-damn if Goldman-Sachs makes billions
   from investments in windmills, solar panels and all the rest. We
   have a situation now where Yupiks in Nome are having their lives
   destroyed because the ice is disappearing--as I pointed out in
   an earlier post today.

   I have a different take on this stuff than A. O-C, Greta
   Thunberg, Bill McKibben and even Naomi Klein. I think that we
   are headed toward massive crises because neither wing of the
   capitalist class is capable of what they call "de-growth". You
   have an enormous contradiction between the 500 years of
   capitalist accumulation tendencies and the needs of the human
   race to survive in harmony with nature. As the century staggers
   on, there will be bloody confrontations between the capitalist
   class and ordinary people over these matters. Right now, people
   are fleeing Central America not just because of gangs but
   because climate change is making farming impossible.

   Against this major confrontation, we are faced with clashes
   within capitalism that we have to take a proper stand on. The
   Paris Accords were woefully lacking but we have to speak out in
   favor of enforcing them even if that puts on the same side as
   Goldman-Sachs. Wildlife preservation and many other aspects of
   life on earth need defending. It is only the class-conscious
   vanguard of the ecosocialist movement that can be consistent in
   such a struggle, not Goldman-Sachs.

   As for Engdahl and Cartalucci, these are supporters of the most
   reactionary sectors of the petrochemical industry. They are like
   Spiked Online and all the other snakes who take money from the
   Koch brothers. I don't need them to tell me that Goldman-Sachs
   is against socialism. I worked there for over 2 years and don't
   need Larouche's stooges to educate me on that. 
   


Lou, how could I not agree with everything you're saying? Just 
acknowledge that we have to confront the fact that what these 
conspiracists write here has substance in part, that enormously powerful 
people have the means and every design, not just to profit from 
windmills but to seize the issue of climate disaster and run with it in 
directions that will mean still more years of evasion, run-away 
profit-taking, increasing inequality and confusion, untold suffering for 
most of us, irreversible destruction of our planet, buttressing of 
capital as solution or only alternative, more of the "lesser evil," more 
delay in tackling the real problem, exacerbation of these enormous 
contradictions, and that we're kind of facing a diversion point that we 
should be very wary of, chilled by, cataclysmally frightened about. Then 
this discussion is put to rest, to that extent.



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[Marxism] Greta Thunberg, AOC and the Green New Deal - Climate and the Money Trail

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 9/28/19 5:05 PM, Ralph Johansen wrote:
There are highly paid policy wonks and apologists for capital in think 
tanks and right wing funded foundations, those with control of the 
media, the IMF, World Bank, EU and transnational capitalist agencies all 
over the capitalist world, some of whom no longer think denial is going 
to get it - the evidence is too palpable - and they are instead 
pondering how they can divert attention and attack from those with the 
real power, the real culprits, corporate perpetrators of climate 
destruction, Syngenta, Monsanto, Cargill, ADM, Dupont, the oil and gas 
and transport. banking, industrial and commercial and distributional 
factions who know that it's either growth or death for capitalism, to 
government epigones in the process who are hopelessly bought and kept in 
place by their corporate sponsors. Including Democrats, those who would 
reform capitalism to save us all as well like the current pack of 
presidential candidates.



I don't give a good god-damn if Goldman-Sachs makes billions from 
investments in windmills, solar panels and all the rest. We have a 
situation now where Yupiks in Nome are having their lives destroyed 
because the ice is disappearing--as I pointed out in an earlier post today.


I have a different take on this stuff than A. O-C, Greta Thunberg, Bill 
McKibben and even Naomi Klein. I think that we are headed toward massive 
crises because neither wing of the capitalist class is capable of what 
they call "de-growth". You have an enormous contradiction between the 
500 years of capitalist accumulation tendencies and the needs of the 
human race to survive in harmony with nature. As the century staggers 
on, there will be bloody confrontations between the capitalist class and 
ordinary people over these matters. Right now, people are fleeing 
Central America not just because of gangs but because climate change is 
making farming impossible.


Against this major confrontation, we are faced with clashes within 
capitalism that we have to take a proper stand on. The Paris Accords 
were woefully lacking but we have to speak out in favor of enforcing 
them even if that puts on the same side as Goldman-Sachs. Wildlife 
preservation and many other aspects of life on earth need defending. It 
is only the class-conscious vanguard of the ecosocialist movement that 
can be consistent in such a struggle, not Goldman-Sachs.


As for Engdahl and Cartalucci, these are supporters of the most 
reactionary sectors of the petrochemical industry. They are like Spiked 
Online and all the other snakes who take money from the Koch brothers. I 
don't need them to tell me that Goldman-Sachs is against socialism. I 
worked there for over 2 years and don't need Larouche's stooges to 
educate me on that.






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Re: [Marxism] Greta Thunberg, AOC and the Green New Deal - Climate and the Money Trail

[Ralph Johansen via Marxism]

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Tony Tracy wrote

In an earlier email, Ralph Johansen wrote:


https://www.globalresearch.ca/climate-money-trail/5690209


The link that he posted from longtime Canadian conspiracist website 
“Global Research” was to an article written by longtime Larouchite F. 
William Engdahl [they had reprinted the article from a website called 
/“New Eastern Outlook.” , /which from a 
cursory look seems unexceptionable   rj]./

/

Engdahl is has been part of Lyndon Larouche’s conspiracist cult for many 
years, and has been frequently published by Larouchite publications such 
as the “Executive Intelligence Review”.


Engdahl is also a global warming denialist 
; according to 
Engdahl, global warming, like peak oil, is merely a “scare” and a 
“thinly veiled attempt to misuse climate to argue for a new Malthusian 
reduction of living standards for the majority of the world while a tiny 
elite gains more power.”


Neither Engdahl, nor the publisher of this article (“Global Research”) 
are credible sources on either climate change, economics, or anything else.


I’m appalled to see this sort of conspiracist still being sent to the 
Marxism email list.


Cheers,

Tony

—
Tony Tracy
*President, IAMAW Local Lodge 3111 CULR*

Phone: 902-223-9489 
Email: presid...@culr1.org  and/or 
t...@tonytracy.ca 


*IAMAW Local Lodge 3111 CULR*
/Canadian Union of Labour Representatives/

*AIMTA Section locale 3111 SCRRS*
/Syndicat canadien de représentantes et représentants syndicaux

/All of which may be perfectly true but is ad hominem attack and doesn't 
deal with the substance of what I sent. While it often makes sense to 
track the messengers to their lairs on the right and therefore shorten 
time and avoid having to deal with what they say, even conspiracists 
manage to be right on some things some of the time, and in those 
respects should not be dismissed or ignored. And what of the other 
article I sent https://tinyurl.com/y6c7ljem?


Greta Thunberg I'm sure has brought a fresh, young element into the 
discussion of global collapse. Same with AOC. They're presence is sorely 
needed. That said, I just don't think It's that simple. There are highly 
paid policy wonks and apologists for capital in think tanks and right 
wing funded foundations, those with control of the media, the IMF, World 
Bank, EU and transnational capitalist agencies all over the capitalist 
world, some of whom no longer think denial is going to get it - the 
evidence is too palpable - and they are instead pondering how they can 
divert attention and attack from those with the real power, the real 
culprits, corporate perpetrators of climate destruction, Syngenta, 
Monsanto, Cargill, ADM, Dupont, the oil and gas and transport. banking, 
industrial and commercial and distributional factions who know that it's 
either growth or death for capitalism, to government epigones in the 
process who are hopelessly bought and kept in place by their corporate 
sponsors. Including Democrats, those who would reform capitalism to save 
us all as well like the current pack of presidential candidates.


Anything but look at the real problem which is the cancerous, moribund 
method of getting out of product which is called capitalism and the 
screaming imperative to kick it all over. So why not if they can swing 
it, foist these youthful enthusiasts on us to lead us in exactly the 
wrong direction, if they'll just hold still long enough to maybe 
haplessly serve as poster children for policy by means of which the 
vitally involved parties can continue to plunder in the name of saving 
the planet and the system - hopeless, obfuscating carbon counting and 
"footprint" mitigation and Green New Dealing, and profit-taking on 
disaster one more time and all at the expense of poor working blokes 
everywhere in the tax and consumer base while the real criminals against 
planet and humanity run with the loot to the Caymans and the Bahamas and 
to underground safe houses. And successfully tout simultaneous 
planet-saving and unlimited growth and capital expansion. Again, as 
Frederic Jameson has it, it's more convenient to maybe even think of the 
end of the world than it is to think of the end of capitalism. And be 
careful what you wish for.



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Re: [Marxism] Greta Thunberg, AOC and the Green New Deal - Climate and the Money Trail

[Tony Tracy via Marxism]

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In an earlier email, Ralph Johansen wrote:

> https://www.globalresearch.ca/climate-money-trail/5690209

The link that he posted from longtime Canadian conspiracist website “Global 
Research” was to an article written by longtime Larouchite F. William Engdahl.

Engdahl is has been part of Lyndon Larouche’s conspiracist cult for many years, 
and has been frequently published by Larouchite publications such as the 
“Executive Intelligence Review”.

Engdahl is also a global warming denialist; according to Engdahl, global 
warming, like peak oil, is merely a “scare” and a “thinly veiled attempt to 
misuse climate to argue for a new Malthusian reduction of living standards for 
the majority of the world while a tiny elite gains more power.” 

Neither Engdahl, nor the publisher of this article (“Global Research”) are 
credible sources on either climate change, economics, or anything else.

I’m appalled to see this sort of conspiracist still being sent to the Marxism 
email list.

Cheers,

Tony

—
Tony Tracy
President, IAMAW Local Lodge 3111 CULR

Phone: 902-223-9489
Email: presid...@culr1.org and/or t...@tonytracy.ca

IAMAW Local Lodge 3111 CULR
Canadian Union of Labour Representatives

AIMTA Section locale 3111 SCRRS
Syndicat canadien de représentantes et représentants syndicaux


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Re: [Marxism] Greta Thunberg, AOC and the Green New Deal - Climate and the Money Trail

[Tony Tracy via Marxism]

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In an earlier email, Ralph Johansen wrote:

> https://www.globalresearch.ca/climate-money-trail/5690209

The link that he posted from longtime Canadian conspiracist website “Global 
Research” was to an article written by longtime Larouchite F. William Engdahl.

Engdahl is has been part of Lyndon Larouche’s conspiracist cult for many years, 
and has been frequently published by Larouchite publications such as the 
“Executive Intelligence Review”.

Engdahl is also a global warming denialist; according to Engdahl, global 
warming, like peak oil, is merely a “scare” and a “thinly veiled attempt to 
misuse climate to argue for a new Malthusian reduction of living standards for 
the majority of the world while a tiny elite gains more power.” 

Neither Engdahl, nor the publisher of this article (“Global Research”) are 
credible sources on either climate change, economics, or anything else.

I’m appalled to see this sort of conspiracist nonsense being sent to the 
Marxism email list.

Cheers,

Tony

—
Tony Tracy
President, IAMAW Local Lodge 3111 CULR

Phone: 902-223-9489
Email: presid...@culr1.org and/or t...@tonytracy.ca

IAMAW Local Lodge 3111 CULR
Canadian Union of Labour Representatives

AIMTA Section locale 3111 SCRRS
Syndicat canadien de représentantes et représentants syndicaux


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[Marxism] Greta Thunberg, AOC and the Green New Deal - Climate and the Money Trail

[Ralph Johansen via Marxism]

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https://www.globalresearch.ca/climate-money-trail/5690209

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