Re: [Marxism] On Russia's war of aggression against Ukraine & MH17

[Shane Mage via Marxism]

==
Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
==



On Aug 8, 2014, at 8:52 PM, Louis Proyect wrote:


On 8/8/14 8:23 PM, Shane Mage via Marxism wrote:



Systematically Reconstructing the Shoot-Down of the Malaysian  
Airliner MH17


by Eric Zuesse

Global Research (August 07 2014)


Shane, don't you know how you embarrass yourself by citing Global  
Research? When did you become a conspiracy theorist? 67 years ago  
you wrote a groundbreaking dissertation on value theory and now you  
ask us to take seriously a website that claims that not only the  
Arab Spring was orchestrated by the CIA but the Occupy Wall Street  
movement as well. What made you go off the deep end?


As I wrote, I expected that from Claiborne.  You frequently repost  
sources just as suspect (NYTimes for example) because the content is  
of interest, and that is one of the foremost real values of this list.  
So bracket the source. and reply, if you can, to the content.  By the  
way, my dissertation was *not* on "value theory" but on what Marx  
called "the economic law of motion" of modern capitalist society. And  
you really should cure yourself of your addiction to that snide meme  
"conspiracy theory," the establishment formula treating all conspiracy  
facts
as "nothing to see here, just keep moving." Remember, it was Adam  
Smith who described conspiracy as the common coin of discourse among  
capitalists when they enjoy privacy among themselves.






Shane Mage

"scientific discovery is basically recognition of obvious realities
that self-interest or ideology have kept everybody from paying  
attention to"



Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] On Russia's war of aggression against Ukraine & MH17

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

==
Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
==


On 8/8/14 8:23 PM, Shane Mage via Marxism wrote:



Systematically Reconstructing the Shoot-Down of the Malaysian Airliner MH17

by Eric Zuesse

Global Research (August 07 2014)


Shane, don't you know how you embarrass yourself by citing Global 
Research? When did you become a conspiracy theorist? 67 years ago you 
wrote a groundbreaking dissertation on value theory and now you ask us 
to take seriously a website that claims that not only the Arab Spring 
was orchestrated by the CIA but the Occupy Wall Street movement as well. 
What made you go off the deep end?


Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] On Russia's war of aggression against Ukraine & MH17

[Shane Mage via Marxism]

==
Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
==



On Aug 8, 2014, at 7:31 PM, Clay Claiborne via Marxism wrote:


 On Russia's war of aggression against Ukraine & MH17
 


The evidence of "Ukraine"'s guilt is now overwhelming. Mr. Claiborne  
continues to ignore it. Expect him to "reply" by denouncing GR for  
everything--except for the content of Eric Zuesse's clear and  
convincing summary of the evidence!



Systematically Reconstructing the Shoot-Down of the Malaysian Airliner  
MH17


by Eric Zuesse

Global Research (August 07 2014)

On July 22nd, zerohedge bannered sarcastically, "Flight MH-17 Black
Boxes To Be Analyzed In 'Impartial' London" {1}, and reported that
they would be analyzed by the US-allied, anti-Russian, pro-Ukrainian,
British Government.

A mere four days later, on the 26th, CBS News headlined the results,
"Black box findings consistent with missile blast" {2}, but they
declined to report who, or even what country's government, had
actually done the analysis. CBS reported merely: "Unreleased data from
a black box retrieved from the wreckage of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17
in Ukraine show findings consistent with the plane's fuselage being
hit multiple times by shrapnel from a missile explosion. 'It did what
it was designed to do', a European air safety official told CBS News,
'bring down airplanes'. The official described the finding as 'massive
explosive decompression'." That's all. Nothing more.

However, this "explosive decompression" would have happened with
bullets too, if the pressurized airliner were punctured by bullets
instead of shrapnel. Why did that person (whomever it was) assume that
the plane had been hit by a missile's shrapnel, instead of by hails of
bullets fired by machine-guns from a fighter-plane flying alongside
it? Maybe because Britain is allied with the Obama-installed Ukrainian
Government, against the anti-Government rebels who have no airplanes
at all and thus cannot get gunmen 33,000 feet up into the air to shoot
directly at the Malaysian airliner's pilot, and that's what actually
brought this plane down. We'll show that the latter scenario is,
indeed, correct.

Only idiots would trust Britain to interpret these black boxes to
determine what and who brought down that plane. But, fortunately, the
physical evidence lying on the ground at the site in Ukraine was
photographed very quickly by locals there and uploaded to the Internet
sometime before any fighters and any governments were able to tamper
with anything; and there happened to be one modest-looking item found
at the site that tells a remarkably complete and entirely credible and
convincing account of how this plane came down.

It tells that the Ukrainian Government itself did this
airliner-downing, with bullets, not with shrapnel. You'll see the
evidence laid out before you here; you won't need to rely upon the
British Government to tell you how this event happened. The evidence
will tell you that.

On July 30th, the retired Lufthansa pilot and published historian
Peter Haisenko issued his "Shocking Analysis of the 'Shooting Down' of
Malaysian MH17" {3}, in which an extremely close-in photo of the most
important piece of physical evidence regarding this event is shown -
it's the side-panel on the left-hand side of the cockpit directly
where the downed plane's pilot was seated - and this photo shocked me,
too.

Here, first, is that side-panel shown inserted back onto its airliner,
so that you can see precisely what and where this piece of the
wreckage was on the plane. {4} You will immediately notice the big
gaping hole that had been shot through the side-panel where the pilot
sits - in other words, targeting directly at the plane's pilot.

This is incredibly precise targeting, of a specific person, and not
merely of the far larger body of an airliner. A ground-based
missile-shot fired from 33,000 feet below cannot achieve that gaping
hole precisely where the pilot sits. A fighter jet plane that's
escorting the airliner into the conflict-zone can. This is how:

Here is that side-panel shown close-up, from Haisenko {5}. Some of the
projectiles that pierced it, as you can see, were inbound into the
plane (or bent inward), and some of them were coming out of the plane
(or bent outward). In other words, going back again to the
full-cockpit photo {6}, and if there were two fighter jets escorting
this plane into the conflict-zone, and if one of them was below the
pilot and cockpit to the left, and the other was below them to the
right, and if both of those fighter-planes then suddenly fired
machine-gun magazines directly into the pilot, so that the bullets
that were coming from his right exited outward from this left-side
cockpit-panel, while the bullets 

[Marxism] On Russia's war of aggression against Ukraine & MH17

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

==
Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
==


New from Linux Beach:


  On Russia's war of aggression against Ukraine & MH17
  


> With all the focus on the rights of Russian speakers in Ukraine and
> the struggle of pro-Russian separatists, it should be lost on nobody
> that an imperialist Russia is conducting a war of aggression against
> its smaller neighbour, Ukraine. Those were Russian troops that
> occupied Crimea  before
> it was annexed. More recently Russia has become even more aggressive
> and we have seen reports of Russian armor entering Eastern Ukraine
> 
>  
> - of course we are suppose to be stupid about where the
> /"separatists"/ get /their/ heavy weapons. We also have reports of
> missiles being fired into Ukraine from Russia
> 
> and Russian warplanes downing Ukrainian planes
> .
> So quite apart of the demands and organization of pro-Russian
> Ukrainians in the east, we have a Russian war of aggression against
> Ukraine.
>
> Now to the case of MH17. We have the Ukrainian telephone intercepts
> .
> I believe they are accurate
> 
> and have gone into detail  as to why I
> think that. I have also debunked the Russian /"expert's"/
> 
> claim that they are fake. The story they tell is that the shoot down
> of MH17 was an accident on the part of the pro-Russian forces. They
> first thought it was a Ukrainian military plane and then found out
> otherwise. This is an explanation I can believe, although I would add
> that such an accident was the inevitable result of Putin's aggressive
> attempts to impose a no-fly zone over part of the country he is attacking.
>
> The Russian response is that Ukraine did it and it was no accident but
> the sacrifice of 298 lives by Ukraine in the hopes of winning support
> for its side, just as, according to Putin and Assad, the Free Syrian
> Army was willing to use sarin on its own people for the same reason. I
> have recently been reminded just how common this twisted logic is
> after reviewing events surrounding the /"Mississippi Burning"/ murder
> of three civil rights workers in 1964. The KKK city officials
> suggested the civil rights movement disappeared the three kids
> themselves in a ploy to get the federal government involved! Those
> /"anti-imperialists"/ who rallied to Assad's claim that the rebels
> gassed themselves in hopes of provoking NATO intervention? This is the
> company they keep. 

*More...*


Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com