Re: [Marxism] Theory Question on right-wing anti-Zionism
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Jeff said: Most of Ken's comments were welcome, but the following segment has left me rather confused: The question of our relationship with one strand of right- wing anti-Zionism was posed sharply at the AGM of the Palestine Solidarity Campaign in the UK at the beginning of 2012. http://site.lalkar.org/article/566/palestinesolidarity-movement-on-the-defensive-as-agm-votes-for-zionist-formulations The meeting voted to endorse a paragraph that the PSC executive had recently added to the campaign website stating that ?Any expression of racism or intolerance, or attempts to deny or minimise the Holocaust have no place in our movement. Such sentiments are abhorrent in their own right and can only detract from the building of a strong movement in support of the fundamental rights of the Palestinian people.? (My emphasis)` Ken Hiebert replies: Jeff is quite right. I left him and others wondering what I make of this. I made the classic mistake of assuming that others would know what I was thinking. I've done this before and will probably do it again as my messages are sometimes overly cryptic. I share Tony Greenstein's view. http://azvsas.blogspot.ca/2012/01/psc-agm-crushing-defeat-for-gilad.html I believe the PSC did the right thing in expelling an avowed Holocaust denier. I included the link to the CPGB M-L article because it included he wording of the resolution and because anything I said could not arouse as much opposition to the CPGB M-L as their own words will. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Theory Question on right-wing anti-Zionism
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * ARG: I'm a big fan of tony greenstein, too, but what you say doesn't sound right. Can you post the link to HIS comment on CPGB-ML, please? --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Theory Question on right-wing anti-Zionism
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Steve, The link is in Ken's msg. On Thursday, March 5, 2015, Steve Heeren via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu'); wrote: POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * ARG: I'm a big fan of tony greenstein, too, but what you say doesn't sound right. Can you post the link to HIS comment on CPGB-ML, please? --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/ options/marxism/amithrgupta%40gmail.com -- - Amith _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Theory Question on right-wing anti-Zionism
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Some scattered comments. There is a symbiotic relationship between apologists for Israel and anti-semites who wish to present themselves as anti-Zionists. The anti-semites can say, But Israel smears all critics as anti-semitic. We are being smeared as well. And the apologists for Israel can discover some anti-semitic twist in one or another criticisms of Israel and say, See, they really are anti-semites. Anti-semites do not take criticism of Israel too far. They take it in an entirely different direction than ourselves. Ron Paul I understand that Ron Paul has at various times made criticisms of Israel, but when he was seeking the Republican nomination for president he became quite mealy-mouthed about Israel and Palestine. If anyone has access to the televised debates, we could check this out. The question of our relationship with one strand of right- wing anti-Zionism was posed sharply at the AGM of the Palestine Solidarity Campaign in the UK at the beginning of 2012. http://site.lalkar.org/article/566/palestinesolidarity-movement-on-the-defensive-as-agm-votes-for-zionist-formulations The meeting voted to endorse a paragraph that the PSC executive had recently added to the campaign website stating that “Any expression of racism or intolerance, or attempts to deny or minimise the Holocaust have no place in our movement. Such sentiments are abhorrent in their own right and can only detract from the building of a strong movement in support of the fundamental rights of the Palestinian people.” (My emphasis) http://azvsas.blogspot.ca/2012/01/psc-agm-crushing-defeat-for-gilad.html PSC AGM – A Crushing Defeat For Gilad Atzmon and the Anti-Semites Gilad Atzmon I am among those who signed this statement. http://mrzine.monthlyreview.org/2012/ga280212p.html http://www.solidarity-us.org/node/3542 I would like to recommend Gilbert Achcar's book, The Arabs and the Holocaust. This is not a quick read as it is densely packed with information. One example - of the Arabs who fought in WWII, a large majority fought against Germany. Of the Palestinians who fought in WWII the overwhelming majority fought against Germany. ken h _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Theory Question on right-wing anti-Zionism
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Hi Jeff, Thanks for your input. I do, however, take issue with this particular paragraph: It is inexplicable that they would see the suffering of Palestinians and be morally outraged while having no such reaction to the Nazi holocaust. You cannot find in their writings solidarity with anti-imperialist struggles in general or defense of minorities in European countries. Or support for any other struggles by Arabs where Israel isn't involved. The only possible explanation for their solidarity with Palestine, having internalized the mainstream narrative of a Jewish-Arab conflict in the middle-east, is anti-semitism. See, I don't see Palestine as just another human rights struggle. I think there are obvious elements of the Zionist colonization of Palestine that are distinct -- the warfare against a stateless people, the sheer length of time that the violence has gone on, the settler-colonial element, the support from the US, the Zionist lobby in the United States, etc. I can think of plenty of reasons, then, why someone would particularly single out Israel while not being very aware or supportive of other Arab causes. Indeed, even within the Arab world, there is plenty of dissension over Palestine. Just as there are many who have forgone their historic solidarity with Palestine, there are many who support Palestine but are silent or even supportive of the crimes of Bashar Al-Assad. Is it fair to say that such people are anti-Semitic? Or is it more fair to say that they are two different armed conflicts, and as such, different people will come to terms with them differently? Likewise, I would say the same about the Holocaust. The Holocaust is a separate crime, and as Norman Finkelstein and others have written, its memory has been shamelessly exploited by apologists for Israel. Given that fact, in addition to the fact that the regime which carried out the Holocaust has been crushed, scattered, and is (with the exception of some segments of the far-right) almost universally reviled, it does not make sense to treat the Holocaust on the same plane as the oppression of Palestine. In fact, if the Holocaust were still taking place, and the Nazis were still in power, the Holocaust would be undeniably the worse oppression. But the fact is, the Holocaust, unlike the Palestinian Nakba, is over, most of its perpetrators met the cold hand of justice, and those who remain are fugitives. I also worry that constantly trying to find condemn anti-Semitism can essentially function as a form of soft Zionism. If we are in solidarity with Palestine, why are we going out of our way to find attacks on the religion and culture of the settler population that is displacing them? Why is it, if we know that many people who share our views but sometimes make exaggerated comments or hold arguably exaggerated views about a very racist regime or the communities that support it or identify with it, do we believe they are espousing anti-Semitism? And further, if we recognize that the rightists often use left-wing rhetoric, what makes the same rhetoric right-wing when it is used by leftists? - Amith On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 10:01 AM, Jeff via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote: POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * At 03:10 04-03-15 -0500, A.R. G via Marxism wrote: I've seen a number of rightists, including some far-rightists who have vocally condemned, in stinging terms, the slaughter of people in Gaza. Do their views about other topics negate their support for Palestine?... And on the flipside, what should I make of leftists like the Anti-Deutsch, or the AWL, or the US SWP Thanks Amith for your post, which brings up a number of crucial issues that receive insufficient attention, in my opinion. I'm, sure a major cause of that inattention is explained by the discomfort it causes to those on the left who are either explicitly or de facto in an anti-imperialist alliance with (part of) the far right, as we have discussed extensively in other contexts. Left unspoken in Amith's post, but obviously of great relevance, is the issue of antisemitism, which I'm sure we can all agree is a right wing ideology like all forms of racism or religious bigotry. There are at least 3 rather distinct issues raised within this discussion: 1) The paradox of far right support for the Palestinians and their national
Re: [Marxism] Theory Question on right-wing anti-Zionism
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 4:04 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote: This is an important point. Our movement is trying to persuade young people, especially Jews I disagree with that part. I'll let Anna Baltzer explain why, not because she's Jewish, but because she's written it out much better than I could: The privileging of Jewish American voices on the issue is rooted in racism http://mondoweiss.net/2012/10/the-privileging-of-jewish-american-voices-on-the-issue-is-rooted-in-racism The immediate task at hand, when it comes to Jewish perspectives on Palestine, is for the rest of us to stop paying such an inordinate amount of attention to a communal debate among 2% of the US population, and to highlight this weird reversal of the norms of solidarity for what it is. -- Hige sceal þe heardra, heorte þe cenre, mod sceal þe mare, þe ure mægen lytlað. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Theory Question on right-wing anti-Zionism
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 3/4/15 3:54 PM, MM via Marxism wrote: I’ve never had any affiliation with any of the groups mentioned, but I actually think we*should* walk on eggshells when language is involved that plays even unconsciously into anti-Semitic caricatures - but I believe this more for tactical reasons than moral ones. That isn’t to deny for a moment that willful anti-Semitism is repugnant, but even perfectly fair and desparately necessary criticisms of the state of Israel, or of individual Zionists or Zionist organisations, are constantly spun by Zionists as anti-Semitic - and I think we should be absolutely vigilant in avoiding and distancing ourselves from language that makes that easy for them to do, precisely in order to protect the space for the enormous amount of criticism that needs to be made, as part of a broader campaign of opposition and resistance. From our previous exchange, and from your description of the piece you’re writing, my sense is that you may disagree with my approach on this issue. I hope you’ll at lea st allow that it may be a reasonable and considered one. This is an important point. Our movement is trying to persuade young people, especially Jews, to turn against Zionism so any blunder, if one that is innocent in character, can be used by our enemies against us. I was reminded of this from a recent incident at UCLA where a member of Hillel was asked about her qualifications as Inside Higher Education reported: A University of California at Los Angeles student was nearly denied a position on the student government’s judicial board last month after student representatives questioned whether her ties to the Jewish community were a conflict of interest. The sophomore candidate, Rachel Beyda, originally failed to win the majority of votes she needed to serve. She was later unanimously approved for the position, after a faculty member intervened. The votes came after an interview with the student, in which she was asked, “Given that you’re a Jewish student and very active in the Jewish community, how do you see yourself being able to maintain an unbiased view?” Critics have said that they are stunned that being Jewish and active in the Jewish community could be cited as a reason to reject a candidate for a student government position. full: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2015/03/03/ucla-student-government-questions-judicial-board-nominee-being-jewish Instead, she should have been asked whether her membership in Hillel might be a problem, especially in light of this: Campus Hillels across the country have distanced themselves from their University of California, Los Angeles affiliate following revelations that UCLA Hillel acted as a pass-through for political donations to pro-Israel student government candidates. Hillel International, the campus centers’ parent body, nevertheless strongly supports the donations, which UCLA’s student newspaper revealed recently. The donations, which came to light in early July, when The Daily Californian obtained several personal emails disclosing them, have raised concern in some quarters about Hillel venturing into student government politics as a partisan player. “I couldn’t remotely even think about getting involved in that,” said Rabbi Leah Cohen, executive director of the Hillel at Yale University, referring to the type of actions UCLA Hillel undertook. Originally, the money in question came to UCLA Hillel as a single $1,000 donation from Los Angeles-based real estate mogul Adam Milstein, a prominent pro-Israel activist. The emails obtained by the Daily Californian showed that Milstein asked UCLA Hillel to direct his money to “UCLA Student Government Leaders.” Milstein wrote that he wanted the contribution to be used to help pro-Israel student candidates “prevail vs. some anti-Israel, pro-BDS students” competing for the same seats. “BDS” is an acronym for the movement to boycott, divest from and sanction Israel to protest its occupation of the West Bank and policies toward the Palestinians. full: http://forward.com/articles/202616/why-did-ucla-hillel-funnel-cash-from-pro-israel-do/ The question to Beyda might have been poorly formulated but they were on the right track. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Theory Question on right-wing anti-Zionism
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 04 Mar 2015, at 10:10 AM, A.R. G via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote: And on the flipside, what should I make of leftists like the Anti-Deutsch, or the AWL, or the US SWP, who have either engaged in overt, extremist support for Israel, Zionism, and its US lobby, or at the very least engaged in apologism by smearing critics who go too far as anti-Semites and the like? And their continued influence in leftist circles (including this one) in which there are people who are constantly walking on eggshells about anything that could possibly be perceived as anti-Jewish? I’ve never had any affiliation with any of the groups mentioned, but I actually think we *should* walk on eggshells when language is involved that plays even unconsciously into anti-Semitic caricatures - but I believe this more for tactical reasons than moral ones. That isn’t to deny for a moment that willful anti-Semitism is repugnant, but even perfectly fair and desparately necessary criticisms of the state of Israel, or of individual Zionists or Zionist organisations, are constantly spun by Zionists as anti-Semitic - and I think we should be absolutely vigilant in avoiding and distancing ourselves from language that makes that easy for them to do, precisely in order to protect the space for the enormous amount of criticism that needs to be made, as part of a broader campaign of opposition and resistance. From our previous exchange, and from your description of the piece you’re writing, my sense is that you may disagree with my approach on this issue. I hope you’ll at least allow that it may be a reasonable and considered one. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Theory Question on right-wing anti-Zionism
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * For my part, I think defensiveness of any sort is precisely the wrong approach. Not only is Zionism an explicitly racist ideology in its own right ( http://www.ameu.org/Resources-%281%29/Why-DID-the-United-Nations-Resolve-that-Zionism-Is.aspx), but it also happens to be the largest and purest repository of classical anti-Semitic ideas, in the 19th-century mold, in the world today. Aside from a few deranged weirdos on the Internet, where else will you hear the kind of bile that has been flowing from Bibi, on a weekly basis, about the inherent alienism and foreign loyalties of Jews outside occupied Palestine? Why should we ever be defensive with this pack of racist creeps? At this point, responsible activism for Palestine means putting them on the defensive. On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 3:54 PM, MM via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote: I’ve never had any affiliation with any of the groups mentioned, but I actually think we *should* walk on eggshells when language is involved that plays even unconsciously into anti-Semitic caricatures - but I believe this more for tactical reasons than moral ones. That isn’t to deny for a moment that willful anti-Semitism is repugnant, but even perfectly fair and desparately necessary criticisms of the state of Israel, or of individual Zionists or Zionist organisations, are constantly spun by Zionists as anti-Semitic - and I think we should be absolutely vigilant in avoiding and distancing ourselves from language that makes that easy for them to do, precisely in order to protect the space for the enormous amount of criticism that needs to be made, as part of a broader campaign of opposition and resistance. From our previous exchange, and from your description of the piece you’re writing, my sense is that you may disagree with my approach on this issue. I hope you’ll at least allow that it may be a reasonable and considered one. -- Hige sceal þe heardra, heorte þe cenre, mod sceal þe mare, þe ure mægen lytlað. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Theory Question on right-wing anti-Zionism
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * This is an important point. Our movement is trying to persuade young people, especially Jews, to turn against Zionism so any blunder, if one that is innocent in character, can be used by our enemies against us. This sounds like the dilemma about ensuring white support in South Africa during the anti-Apartheid movement. I agree with the pragmatism element. The problem is that I do not think that how rhetoric sounds is the driving force behind whether or not anyone, including young Jews, perceive an attack. We are talking about situations of institutionalized racism, in which racial privileges, whether illusory or material, are assumed across the board by a host of different institutions, from Congress to the police to the churches, etc. Jews are seen as the forefront and triumph of western civilization while Arabs and/or Muslims are seen as the enemy within. That means that, as others have pointed out, even non-anti-Semitic rhetoric might be perceived as an attack on Jews because it attacks institutional inequality. If we peg our rhetoric to what may or may not persuade young Jews then the effect is that we are not only hamstrung from talking about certain subjects that are simply inherently taboo (i.e. the exploitation of the Holocaust; Jewish power in the United States; the Zionist lobby; so on), while at the same time castigating anti-Zionist anger that others in this thread seem to agree is not necessarily anti-Semitic. I'm thinking of people like Steven Salaita. His Tweets were hardly nuanced. If we followed this notion of trying to persuade young Jews, then none of his tweets would have qualified. But at the same time, the effect of telling him to watch his mouth because we need to appeal to Jews (or liberals, or any other constituency) is that anger, outrage, and so forth become anathema within Palestine circles. Something is lost when you are forced to take the edge off your rage, it means that even within the community that is supposed to be advocating for something, certain feelings and thoughts are unacceptable. The idea also applies to much less controversial stuff -- BDS, calling Israel an Apartheid regime, etc. All of these things are arguably extreme, at least within the American milieu, and any one of those things could easily alienate someone who grew up Jewish and affiliates Israel with good thoughts. The end result of this line of reasoning -- not saying certain things despite the fact that they are innocent, valid expressions of ideas that are taboo, or invalid expressions of legitimate outrage -- is that Israel is shielded from certain kinds of discourse, essentially to pander to Jews specifically and Zionists more generally. Is that a good strategy? Is it even necessary? - Amith On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 4:04 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote: POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 3/4/15 3:54 PM, MM via Marxism wrote: I’ve never had any affiliation with any of the groups mentioned, but I actually think we*should* walk on eggshells when language is involved that plays even unconsciously into anti-Semitic caricatures - but I believe this more for tactical reasons than moral ones. That isn’t to deny for a moment that willful anti-Semitism is repugnant, but even perfectly fair and desparately necessary criticisms of the state of Israel, or of individual Zionists or Zionist organisations, are constantly spun by Zionists as anti-Semitic - and I think we should be absolutely vigilant in avoiding and distancing ourselves from language that makes that easy for them to do, precisely in order to protect the space for the enormous amount of criticism that needs to be made, as part of a broader campaign of opposition and resistance. From our previous exchange, and from your description of the piece you’re writing, my sense is that you may disagree with my approach on this issue. I hope you’ll at lea st allow that it may be a reasonable and considered one. This is an important point. Our movement is trying to persuade young people, especially Jews, to turn against Zionism so any blunder, if one that is innocent in character, can be used by our enemies against us. I was reminded of this from a recent incident at UCLA where a member of Hillel was asked about her qualifications as Inside Higher Education reported: A University of California
Re: [Marxism] Theory Question on right-wing anti-Zionism
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * “A Jew to Zionist Fighters, 1988” Do You Really Want To Be The New Gestapo? The New Wehrmacht? The New SA And SS? Erich Fried was born in Vienna in 1921 and escaped to England, with his mother, after his father was tortured to death by the Gestapo, in 1938. Because of his experiences with racism and Fascism he became involved in the Palestinian cause. He was a leader in the fight against both Fascism and Zionism. *** A Jew to Zionist Fighters, 1988 What do you actually want? Do you really want to outdo those who trod you down a generation ago into your own blood and into your own excrement Do you want to pass on the old torture to others now in all its bloody and dirty detail with all the brutal delight of torturers as suffered by your fathers? Do you really want to be the new Gestapo the new Wehrmacht the new SA and SS and turn the Palestinians into the new Jews? Well then I too want, having fifty years ago myself been tormented for being a Jewboy by your tormentors, to be a new Jew with these new Jews you are making of the Palestinians And I want to help lead them as a free people into their own land of Palestine from whence you have driven them or in which you plague them you apprentices of the Swastika you fools and changelings of history whose Star of David on your flags turns ever quicker into that damned symbol with its four feet that you just do not want to see but whose path you are following today T -Original Message- From: A.R. G via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Sent: Mar 4, 2015 11:27 AM To: Thomas F Barton thomasfbar...@earthlink.net Subject: Re: [Marxism] Theory Question on right-wing anti-Zionism Hi Jeff, Thanks for your input. I do, however, take issue with this particular paragraph: It is inexplicable that they would see the suffering of Palestinians and be morally outraged while having no such reaction to the Nazi holocaust. You cannot find in their writings solidarity with anti-imperialist struggles in general or defense of minorities in European countries. Or support for any other struggles by Arabs where Israel isn't involved. The only possible explanation for their solidarity with Palestine, having internalized the mainstream narrative of a Jewish-Arab conflict in the middle-east, is anti-semitism. See, I don't see Palestine as just another human rights struggle. I think there are obvious elements of the Zionist colonization of Palestine that are distinct -- the warfare against a stateless people, the sheer length of time that the violence has gone on, the settler-colonial element, the support from the US, the Zionist lobby in the United States, etc. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Theory Question on right-wing anti-Zionism
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * It sounds like vulgar Marxism. - Amith On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 9:55 PM, Joseph Catron jncat...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 9:38 PM, A.R. G amithrgu...@gmail.com wrote: Are we really to believe that in this quagmire of setbacks, shifting loyalties, etc, it is not possible for US policymakers to have made irrational moves? Course not. They're like gods, don't you know? What if leftists succeed in getting the elites to make concessions that contradict their class interests? I think the flaw in the logic you're critiquing, aside from its assumption of infallibility (which some of them would probably make fun of Catholics for attributing to just one guy!), is a vast exaggeration of the coherence and unity of elite interests. I mean, they're actually in competition with each other, which means that things work to the benefit of some and the detriment of others rather often. I don't know what could be more obvious than that. -- Hige sceal þe heardra, heorte þe cenre, mod sceal þe mare, þe ure mægen lytlað. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Theory Question on right-wing anti-Zionism
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 9:38 PM, A.R. G amithrgu...@gmail.com wrote: Are we really to believe that in this quagmire of setbacks, shifting loyalties, etc, it is not possible for US policymakers to have made irrational moves? Course not. They're like gods, don't you know? What if leftists succeed in getting the elites to make concessions that contradict their class interests? I think the flaw in the logic you're critiquing, aside from its assumption of infallibility (which some of them would probably make fun of Catholics for attributing to just one guy!), is a vast exaggeration of the coherence and unity of elite interests. I mean, they're actually in competition with each other, which means that things work to the benefit of some and the detriment of others rather often. I don't know what could be more obvious than that. -- Hige sceal þe heardra, heorte þe cenre, mod sceal þe mare, þe ure mægen lytlað. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Theory Question on right-wing anti-Zionism
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * I see that the name of Alison Weir has come up in this discussion. It may be illuminating to look at (one of) her websites. http://www.councilforthenationalinterest.org/new/category/cni/weir/ The Council for the National Interest Working for Middle East Policies that Serve the National Interest I am intrigued by the idea that there is one place in the world, the Middle East, where the US pursues polices that do not serve the national interest. Elsewhere, Cuba, Venezuela, Libya, Ukraine, etc. the U. S. is effectively working for its national interest and therefore we have no need to criticize those policies. Why is that? Why would US policy in one region be so much at variance with policies elsewhere? ken h _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Theory Question on right-wing anti-Zionism
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * I agree with Joe's comments above. Re: DW: There is nothing irrational about US foreign policy in the Middle East, including the invasion of Iraq. Wow, even assuming such an extreme statement was something that didn't need to be qualified with evidence, US foreign policy toward Iraq has varied rapidly between government to government. In the 1980's it was characterized by active support for Saddam Hussein and even some degree of leniency toward the idea of his invading Kuwait. During and after, it was characterized by the 1st Persian Gulf War, during which many of the same policymakers that went on to cheer for Hussein's overthrow in the more recent war were highly skeptical of accomplishing the same ends in the early 1990s. Then came sanctions, then the Iraq invasion. Are we really to believe that in this quagmire of setbacks, shifting loyalties, etc, it is not possible for US policymakers to have made irrational moves? Especially after 9/11, when the public demanded harsh action and the same zany elements whose ideas of regime change in the 1990s were cast aside as irrational came back and succeeded? Imperialism knows fully well what is in it's interest, and that interest means anything from control over other nations to full and total domination over them. And empires fall. They succomb to internal and external pressures, which often get them to make the wrong move. The overbite after 9/11 is a great example. The idea that Israel is able to bend and distort somehow American Imperialism to actually go against it's class interest is the non-materialist thinking of the likes of Jeff Blankfort and James Petras and is congruent with the original anti-Jewish anti-Zionist Arab Lobby of the 1940s and 1950s reflected today by only real decedent of that view, Patrick Buchanan. So now even rejecting/exaggerating Zionist lobby is anti-Jewish. Great! What if leftists succeed in getting the elites to make concessions that contradict their class interests? Is that inconceivable? And if so, why is it not believable that a slick, well-funded lobby associated with a powerful Middle Eastern regime could have the same effect after a national crisis like 9/11? Israel is powerful and its lobby AIPAC is quite strong and influential, which no one, least of all AIPAC, denies. But that it can actually shape that policy is nonsense. So what, then, is its power? The power to agree with other strong influential policymakers? If for whatever reason there is real and actual conflict over the interests of US Imperialism and Israeli Imperialism, AIPAC will disappear or scale back, and every single politico will dump Israel like a ton of bricks (as unlikely a scenario as that sounds) and that includes all the Jewish-American politicos as well. This is an oversimplification. That is usually the case, but the stakes have to be high. If the perceived loss among the elites is small and the political support it will gain from the Zionist lobby is big, then why wouldn't/shouldn't US elites go along with Israel against their own perceived interests? That is more or less what motivates the support for the settlements. - Amith On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 9:20 PM, Joseph Catron via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote: POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 8:40 PM, Ken Hiebert via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote: Elsewhere, Cuba ... the U. S. is effectively working for its national interest Is the US working for its national interest (if such a thing exist in coherent terms) in Cuba now, or was it doing so a month and a half ago, while pandering to a right-wing lobby by pursuing a very different set of policies? You'll have to do some pretty fast talking to convince us that its interest shifted so rapidly! This kind of denial of the role of domestic pressure always reminds me of perhaps the last sane essay Christopher Hitchens ever wrote: I wasted a little time before writing this article, to see if I could produce a satire or a parody. This would have consisted of a fundraising letter from the American Israel Public Affairs Committee to a potential donor. 'Dear Leo,' it might begin. 'We are asking you, even in these straitened times, to make the largest contribution you can afford. The security of the state of Israel is threatened as never before, and your help is urgently
Re: [Marxism] Theory Question on right-wing anti-Zionism
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 8:40 PM, Ken Hiebert via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote: Elsewhere, Cuba ... the U. S. is effectively working for its national interest Is the US working for its national interest (if such a thing exist in coherent terms) in Cuba now, or was it doing so a month and a half ago, while pandering to a right-wing lobby by pursuing a very different set of policies? You'll have to do some pretty fast talking to convince us that its interest shifted so rapidly! This kind of denial of the role of domestic pressure always reminds me of perhaps the last sane essay Christopher Hitchens ever wrote: I wasted a little time before writing this article, to see if I could produce a satire or a parody. This would have consisted of a fundraising letter from the American Israel Public Affairs Committee to a potential donor. 'Dear Leo,' it might begin. 'We are asking you, even in these straitened times, to make the largest contribution you can afford. The security of the state of Israel is threatened as never before, and your help is urgently required. Alas, we can offer you nothing in return for your donation. Our representatives are still treated with scorn and contempt in the halls of Congress and by the White House. The news media remain deaf to our entreaties. If you choose to attend our annual conference, we can offer you nothing by way of 'access.' As usual, the secretaries of state and defense and the leadership of the Joint Chiefs of Staff will find plausible reasons to be absent. So will the speaker of the House and the Senate majority leader. Try to think of your contribution as a mitzvah: a private good deed that may not even go unpunished ...' http://slate.me/1CJBG7n I mean, do you think the US Congress put on that embarrassing performance for Netanyahu because they actually like him that much? Or is their some material basis (aside from cold, hard campaign cash) for their pathetic groveling? I rather think not. -- Hige sceal þe heardra, heorte þe cenre, mod sceal þe mare, þe ure mægen lytlað. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Theory Question on right-wing anti-Zionism
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * At 16:04 04-03-15 -0500, Louis Proyect via Marxism wrote: This is an important point. Our movement is trying to persuade young people, especially Jews, to turn against Zionism so any blunder, if one that is innocent in character, can be used by our enemies against us. Well it goes without saying that in any context, our blunders (and by definition all blunders are innocent) will likely be used against us by our enemies. And perhaps that needs to be emphasized in the context of Palestine/Israel where we know that there is a widespread and efficient Zionist machine setup to exploit each and every blunder made by our side. But of course in between our blunders, that propaganda machine is equally busy distorting and falsely portraying anything we do which ISN'T a blunder as anti-semitic, regardless. Rather than walking on eggshells, as I understand that expression, I agree more with the subsequent posts by Amith and Joseph. In particular, if we act cowardly (defensive in Joseph's terms) only when dealing with Israel, bending over backwards to avoid the anti-semitic label, then they will have already won half the battle. The signals we unconsciously give out will be interpreted by our target audience as guilt, as if anti-semitism is something we have to hide or suppress, as if anti-semitism naturally infects the Palestinian struggle, thus affirming the very allegation advanced by our enemy! We don't need to present antisemitism as any more (or less) evil than any other form of racism, all of which we reject unequivocally. The burden of proof of antisemitism (unless we actually HAVE blundered) is on the accuser, and even in mainstream circles the false equivalence between anti-Zionism and anti-semitism is, thankfully, eroding. So what we need to do (as well as with other issues) is to be PRECISE in our wording and in our concepts. For instance, it is not totally uncommon for someone to accidentally say Jewish when they mean Zionist. When someone makes such a linguistic error, they can just acknowledge the error and explain what they meant. When someone makes such an error in writing, it shouldn't appear in the published version because it will have been caught in the proofreading stage. If walking on eggshells means an extra proofread for writings that will be dissected by the Zionist propaganda machine, that's fine. But if it means hiding some of what we think because we're afraid of being misconstrued, then we're digging our own grave. - Jeff P.S. I also agree with Joseph that our target audience is no more Jewish than the proportion of Jews is among the general population. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Theory Question on right-wing anti-Zionism
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Joseph Catron: For my part, I think defensiveness of any sort is precisely the wrong approach. Not only is Zionism an explicitly racist ideology in its own right ( http://www.ameu.org/Resources-%281%29/Why-DID-the-United-Nations-Resolve-that-Zionism-Is.aspx), but it also happens to be the largest and purest repository of classical anti-Semitic ideas, in the 19th-century mold, in the world today. Aside from a few deranged weirdos on the Internet, where else will you hear the kind of bile that has been flowing from Bibi, on a weekly basis, about the inherent alienism and foreign loyalties of Jews outside occupied Palestine? Why should we ever be defensive with this pack of racist creeps? At this point, responsible activism for Palestine means putting them on the defensive. Ken Hiebert replies: At this point, responsible activism for Palestine means putting them on the defensive.: I agree. I think that is the point of this discussion. How do we do that? One way is to be crystal clear about what we stand for and what motivates our criticism of Israel. Steering clear of people who want to use the revulsion against Israel to peddle their anti-semitic garbage (eg. David Duke) would be a good start. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Theory Question on right-wing anti-Zionism
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * This thread has proceeded in a different direction, however I will clarify myself in response to the disagreement Amith has expressed with my earlier post: At 11:27 04-03-15 -0500, A.R. G via Marxism wrote: Hi Jeff, Thanks for your input. I do, however, take issue with this particular paragraph: It is inexplicable that they would see the suffering of Palestinians and be morally outraged while having no such reaction to the Nazi holocaust. You cannot find in their writings solidarity with anti-imperialist struggles in general or defense of minorities in European countries. Or support for any other struggles by Arabs where Israel isn't involved. The only possible explanation for their solidarity with Palestine, having internalized the mainstream narrative of a Jewish-Arab conflict in the middle-east, is anti-semitism. See, I don't see Palestine as just another human rights struggle. I think there are obvious elements of the Zionist colonization of Palestine that are distinct I can think of plenty of reasons, then, why someone would particularly single out Israel while not being very aware or supportive of other Arab causes. Well I absolutely agree that the state of Israel and its actions represent an extreme case in a number of respects. If we were giving out academy awards for the most egregious actions by a capitalist state, then Israel would walk away with the most awards, no sweat. So yes, there are plenty of reasons a non-activist would see the plight of the Palestinians and be motivated to action (thus singling out Israel) for the first time. But all that isn't relevant to my point. I wasn't talking about individuals who become outraged about Israel without being very aware or supportive of other Arab causes, or even being aware of the Nazi holocaust if they haven't learned much history. I was talking about right-wing ORGANIZATIONS and published WRITERS who cannot claim such ignorance. I was saying that if a KNOWLEDGEABLE person or organization were simply reacting to the moral outrage of Palestinian oppression, then they would undoubtedly take a position (even if no action) in response to other terrible violations of national or human rights currently taking place or recorded in history. Mentioning the holocaust was just one particular example, but a very pertinent one in relation to some fascists, since it is universally denounced by almost everyone except for fascists who trace back to the Nazi's. I concluded that their concern for Palestine and insensitivity to (or knowing denial of) that historic crime, could only be a sign of their antisemitism. I couldn't possibly give them credit for compassion in the one case and not the other. They choose to support Palestine, and no other Arabs, because they DO believe that anti-Zionism = anti-semitism and realize they can make more friends using the former terminology. Having them on our side is toxic; they aren't on our side just because we share a common enemy, and we are wise to disassociate ourselves from them whenever that would be in question. Again, I'm not talking about ordinary people who are politically naive. The fight against anti-semitism doesn't focus on what I would call ignorant anti-semitism disconnected from a political outlook. So suppose apolitical John Doe has a bad experience with his bank, and decries all those Jewish bankers that screwed him, because he's heard that the world is controlled by Jewish bankers. I might even express sympathy with him against the bankers, but try to explain that most bankers aren't Jewish, most Jews aren't bankers, and there is no widespread Jewish conspiracy beyond what Israel has created for its own purposes. If I fail then he may well go on to become a POLITICAL antisemite, but otherwise I just see him as being an example of ignorance. In an atmosphere of organized anti-semitism that could still make him dangerous, but in a liberal Western society if he doesn't have much power and isn't violent, then I wouldn't worry about him in particular. But again, an organization that is political enough to be called right wing cannot claim ignorance, and their adoption of the cause of Palestine cannot be seen as having anything in common with our positions. That is my point. Further: I also worry that constantly trying to find condemn anti-Semitism can essentially function as a form of soft Zionism. Excuse me, but where did I say that I spend my spare time rooting out anti-semitism? I am much more concerned with Islamophobia affecting Europe. But the question Amith posed was how to explain and orient to fascists who claim solidarity with Palestine. So I answered honestly: they
Re: [Marxism] Theory Question on right-wing anti-Zionism
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Is it not conceivable that the Middle East and its different constellation of power is one in which traditional foreign policy realism is being violated, while it is not in other contexts? As for why how, Israel is tremendously more powerful than its neighbors, especially after the 1967 war and with its procurement of nuclear weapons. It should be fairly obvious that it would have more influence than other states, let alone the Palestinians. Moreover, because Israel is a settler-colony built largely from without, it has a political advocacy network that stretches well beyond the Middle East. These are (some) of the factors that make Israel distinct, and, in my view, contribute to how Israel is able to advocate effectively for what its politicos think is in its best interest, often at the chagrin of US foreign policy planners. There has been a tension between people in the foreign services, the state dept, the CIA, etc. and support for Israel since the days of Truman, and it only became more pronounced after 1967 when Israel became an even more influential and prized asset. Moreover, things like the Iraq War also show clearly that the US policy in the Middle East specifically is more irrational. The US invasion Iraq was by most IR national interest standards a tremendous disaster, even if it worked out in the short-term interests of many zealots and profiteers. - Amith On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 8:40 PM, Ken Hiebert via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote: POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * I see that the name of Alison Weir has come up in this discussion. It may be illuminating to look at (one of) her websites. http://www.councilforthenationalinterest.org/new/category/cni/weir/ The Council for the National Interest Working for Middle East Policies that Serve the National Interest I am intrigued by the idea that there is one place in the world, the Middle East, where the US pursues polices that do not serve the national interest. Elsewhere, Cuba, Venezuela, Libya, Ukraine, etc. the U. S. is effectively working for its national interest and therefore we have no need to criticize those policies. Why is that? Why would US policy in one region be so much at variance with policies elsewhere? ken h _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/amithrgupta%40gmail.com _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Theory Question on right-wing anti-Zionism
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Is it not conceivable that the Middle East and its different constellation of power is one in which traditional foreign policy realism is being violated, while it is not in other contexts? As for why how, Israel is tremendously more powerful than its neighbors, especially after the 1967 war and with its procurement of nuclear weapons. It should be fairly obvious that it would have more influence than other states, let alone the Palestinians. Moreover, because Israel is a settler-colony built largely from without, it has a political advocacy network that stretches well beyond the Middle East. These are (some) of the factors that make Israel distinct, and, in my view, contribute to how Israel is able to advocate effectively for what its politicos think is in its best interest, often at the chagrin of US foreign policy planners. There has been a tension between people in the foreign services, the state dept, the CIA, etc. and support for Israel since the days of Truman, and it only became more pronounced after 1967 when Israel became an even more influential and prized asset. Moreover, things like the Iraq War also show clearly that the US policy in the Middle East specifically is more irrational. The US invasion Iraq was by most IR national interest standards a tremendous disaster, even if it worked out in the short-term interests of many zealots and profiteers. - Amith On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 8:40 PM, Ken Hiebert via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote: POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * I see that the name of Alison Weir has come up in this discussion. It may be illuminating to look at (one of) her websites. http://www.councilforthenationalinterest.org/new/category/cni/weir/ The Council for the National Interest Working for Middle East Policies that Serve the National Interest I am intrigued by the idea that there is one place in the world, the Middle East, where the US pursues polices that do not serve the national interest. Elsewhere, Cuba, Venezuela, Libya, Ukraine, etc. the U. S. is effectively working for its national interest and therefore we have no need to criticize those policies. Why is that? Why would US policy in one region be so much at variance with policies elsewhere? ken h _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/amithrgupta%40gmail.com _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Theory Question on right-wing anti-Zionism
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * There is nothing irrational about US foreign policy in the Middle East, including the invasion of Iraq. Imperialism knows fully well what is in it's interest, and that interest means anything from control over other nations to full and total domination over them. The idea that Israel is able to bend and distort somehow American Imperialism to actually go against it's class interest is the non-materialist thinking of the likes of Jeff Blankfort and James Petras and is congruent with the original anti-Jewish anti-Zionist Arab Lobby of the 1940s and 1950s reflected today by only real decedent of that view, Patrick Buchanan. Those who advocate that Israel sets the policy of the US toward itself and the region know little about how and why Imperialism does what it does. US support has paid off in spades for the US during the Cold War and beyond to this day. Israel is powerful and its lobby AIPAC is quite strong and influential, which no one, least of all AIPAC, denies. But that it can actually shape that policy is nonsense. If for whatever reason there is real and actual conflict over the interests of US Imperialism and Israeli Imperialism, AIPAC will disappear or scale back, and every single politico will dump Israel like a ton of bricks (as unlikely a scenario as that sounds) and that includes all the Jewish-American politicos as well. David Walters _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Theory Question on right-wing anti-Zionism
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Several peace and justice organizations that i have been involved with include a statement like this is their mission statement: We affirm the inherent value and equality of all people and hold that racist views, such as anti-Arab and anti-Jewish views, are antithetical and unacceptable to the movement for peace and social justice. A movement organization should have democratically created its mission statement and be prepared to democratically defend it. If individuals or groups who are known to actually hold and express racist views are attracted to try to join with popular, growing progressive movements they must be 'outed' and excluded, directed to leave - they are not welcome to participate. They are not in agreement with the purpose/mission statement of the progressive organization. On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 7:56 PM, A.R. G via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote: POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * It sounds like vulgar Marxism. - Amith On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 9:55 PM, Joseph Catron jncat...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 9:38 PM, A.R. G amithrgu...@gmail.com wrote: Are we really to believe that in this quagmire of setbacks, shifting loyalties, etc, it is not possible for US policymakers to have made irrational moves? Course not. They're like gods, don't you know? What if leftists succeed in getting the elites to make concessions that contradict their class interests? I think the flaw in the logic you're critiquing, aside from its assumption of infallibility (which some of them would probably make fun of Catholics for attributing to just one guy!), is a vast exaggeration of the coherence and unity of elite interests. I mean, they're actually in competition with each other, which means that things work to the benefit of some and the detriment of others rather often. I don't know what could be more obvious than that. -- Hige sceal þe heardra, heorte þe cenre, mod sceal þe mare, þe ure mægen lytlað. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/daynegoodwin%40gmail.com _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Theory Question on right-wing anti-Zionism
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * I've seen a number of rightists, including some far-rightists who have vocally condemned, in stinging terms, the slaughter of people in Gaza. This includes David Duke, a former Ku Klux Klansman who releases videos that get quite a following condemning Zionism, the Zio-puppets, the Jewish lobby, Jewish power/privilege, etc. It also includes a handful of right-wing extremists in Europe. Arguably, it also includes groups like ISIS or apologists for the Syrian government, and so on. All of these groups have issued excorciating criticisms of Israel and Zionism, in many cases borrowing heavily from leftist, Marxist, or anti-war sources. There are also more moderate anti-Zionist voices on the right, including Justin Raimondo, antiwar.com, the Ron Paul libertarians, etc. What should I make of them? Do their views about other topics negate their support for Palestine? Does it even count as support for Palestine? Does it matter? And on the flipside, what should I make of leftists like the Anti-Deutsch, or the AWL, or the US SWP, who have either engaged in overt, extremist support for Israel, Zionism, and its US lobby, or at the very least engaged in apologism by smearing critics who go too far as anti-Semites and the like? And their continued influence in leftist circles (including this one) in which there are people who are constantly walking on eggshells about anything that could possibly be perceived as anti-Jewish? I'm writing a piece about leftists and witch-hunting for anti-Semitism, and I'd like to hear your thoughts on this issue. - Amith _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Theory Question on right-wing anti-Zionism
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * At 03:10 04-03-15 -0500, A.R. G via Marxism wrote: I've seen a number of rightists, including some far-rightists who have vocally condemned, in stinging terms, the slaughter of people in Gaza. Do their views about other topics negate their support for Palestine?... And on the flipside, what should I make of leftists like the Anti-Deutsch, or the AWL, or the US SWP Thanks Amith for your post, which brings up a number of crucial issues that receive insufficient attention, in my opinion. I'm, sure a major cause of that inattention is explained by the discomfort it causes to those on the left who are either explicitly or de facto in an anti-imperialist alliance with (part of) the far right, as we have discussed extensively in other contexts. Left unspoken in Amith's post, but obviously of great relevance, is the issue of antisemitism, which I'm sure we can all agree is a right wing ideology like all forms of racism or religious bigotry. There are at least 3 rather distinct issues raised within this discussion: 1) The paradox of far right support for the Palestinians and their national liberation struggle. 2) The actual existence or appearance of antisemitism among Palestinians or other oppressed peoples of the region who are directly threatened by Israel. (Which is a different issue from antisemitism among pro-Palestinian campaigners in Europe, for instance, which more falls into category (1)). 3) The unfortunate reaction of some leftist groups -- ones that are really left, according to their program on any number of issues -- to the question of antisemitism, in which they are led to an inexcusable softness towards or wholesale support for Zionism. I could expound extensively on any of these questions but will just say a few things in relation to (1), but would appreciate discussion on the list around these other issues. I don't have much time at the moment, so I'll be brief. I remember how shocked and confused I was the first time I read a pro-Palestinian position expounded by a clearly fascist group! I don't remember which one it was, but what I'm saying applies to all such cases. In Europe and North America these fascist groups are invariably white racist and their views of Arabs are no better than any other people of color. It is inexplicable that they would see the suffering of Palestinians and be morally outraged while having no such reaction to the Nazi holocaust. You cannot find in their writings solidarity with anti-imperialist struggles in general or defense of minorities in European countries. Or support for any other struggles by Arabs where Israel isn't involved. The only possible explanation for their solidarity with Palestine, having internalized the mainstream narrative of a Jewish-Arab conflict in the middle-east, is anti-semitism. Period. I have no doubt about that, and that is why I see their support for Palestine as being disingenuous and having nothing to with the actual solidarity movement let alone the concerns of the left. I can't be sufficiently emphatic on this point without access to the volume control on your computer. Now maybe I didn't need to point that out to most people reading this, but it leads to the practical questions of how we leftists, and Palestinian solidarity organizations which aren't explicitly left, deal with the appearance of such supporters in our midst. As a leftist I denounce them as fascist or far-right whenever I see them, since that's what they are. Palestine solidarity groups can and should denounce them for their antisemitism, as for any display of racism, when it can be discerned. For instance, in the Netherlands our demonstrations prohibit the presence of signs or slogans that are even remotely anti-semitic. Sometimes people join us with signs or writings which aren't consciously antisemitic, such as accusing Israel of controlling Western governments (the concept of the international Jewish conspiracy), and they just need to become aware of an issue that they weren't sensitive to. I would never express hostility to such a person or group, when it is indeed innocent. However there are cases where an identical public face belongs to a far-right ACTUALLY antisemitic group, and they know exactly what they are doing! Likewise, someone can, for instance, innocently denounce atrocities or machinations by Jews, meaning Israel. Experienced activists (not just leftists) are careful to refer to Zionism or Israel as the enemy, so when such sloppy wording is encountered we have to help improve it, or identify an actual antisemite when that is the case. Unfortunately the most sophisticated fascists understand everything I just
