Re: [Marxism] and now tragically, inevitably, we have this...

[Shane Mage via Marxism]

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On Jul 20, 2014, at 4:53 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism wrote:


On 7/20/14 4:20 PM, John Obrien via Marxism wrote:

I continue to detect on this Marxist List discussions
people promoting/cheer leading U. S. (capitalist) government  
military and economic
aggression and interference in these and other nations - and others  
promoting the
Russia (capitalist) government and its allies/proxies (capitalist)  
states actions.


You have to learn how to quote people, O'Brien.

This kind of characterization of people's views without regard for  
what they actually are saying is not only provocative, it defeats  
the purpose of having a serious debate...


Methinks our listowner doth protest too much, since he has just  
slandered Robert Parry ("Robert Parry is part of a cadre of  
investigative journalists who have put themselves at the disposal of  
the Kremlin") for having passingly expressed scepticism, in the course  
of a splendid piece of investigative journalism (investigative  
journalism, by the way, is the endeavor to uncover and publicize  
information that those in power wish to suppress), anent the US  
regime's official position on the Sarin incident in Syria.  And, by  
the way, there is no analytic difference between denouncing someone  
for not doing something or not doing enough of it (as when Obama is  
denounced for not intervening actively enough in support of the armed  
insurgency in Syria) and cheerleading for that person doing something  
or doing more of it. John O'Brien has summarized that side of the  
discussion quite precisely.





Shane Mage

"scientific discovery is basically recognition of obvious realities
that self-interest or ideology have kept everybody from paying  
attention to"



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Re: [Marxism] and now tragically, inevitably, we have this...

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 7/20/14 4:20 PM, John Obrien via Marxism wrote:

I continue to detect on this Marxist List discussions
people promoting/cheer leading U. S. (capitalist) government military and 
economic
aggression and interference in these and other nations - and others promoting 
the
Russia (capitalist) government and its allies/proxies (capitalist) states 
actions.


You have to learn how to quote people, O'Brien.

This kind of characterization of people's views without regard for what 
they actually are saying is not only provocative, it defeats the purpose 
of having a serious debate. Try not to do this in the future or else I 
will be forced to put you on moderation. It was this kind of 
reductionism that led to flame wars in the past. We really don't need that.


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Re: [Marxism] and now tragically, inevitably, we have this...

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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So with all the back and forth on mainly egos and information on "who did what" 
-
whether Syria, Iraq, Ukraine, etc. - I continue to detect on this Marxist List 
discussions
people promoting/cheer leading U. S. (capitalist) government military and 
economic
aggression and interference in these and other nations - and others promoting 
the
Russia (capitalist) government and its allies/proxies (capitalist) states 
actions.
 
While I like the historical information some people share on this list, I wish
there was more a direction on how people can help REAL socialists in these
different lands, than to this ideological and too much male ego strutting - on
generals with no armies reviewing their "battle strategies".
 
There are real lives at stake - and those cheerleading for a USA or other 
capitalist
military to occupy and cause destruction, does nothing concretely to change 
things
that favor the poor and working people of this world.
 
Why are people expecting/hoping/viewing on this List, the USA government and
its allies/proxies - being a "positive" alternative to expand spheres of 
influence
and power in this world?   And everyone who has written their "criticism" of the
USA government "not doing more" (meaning militarily/economically) under the
Obama administration (who would not do so if Bush, Reagan were presidents)
in Sudan, Iran, Libya, Iraq, Egypt, Palestine and now Ukraine - promote peace,
justice or socialism?  They seem to more identify with the USA military Empire, 
   
than in efforts to establish worker democracies.
 
The collapse of the Stalinist Soviet Union, should have energized people on
this list to help reach out and assist in many ways in building left groups in
those former Soviet republics and in Eastern Europe.   Instead we have seen
people just writing among themselves - and instead of outreach building
in other nations and the ones they reside in - "cheerleading" for president
Obama to use MORE military and economic force to be the "Big Bully" in
the world!  We need to do away with the cheer leading for Putin and Obama
and spend real time on promoting socialism - the only real hope for this
world, that many such as myself on this List, STILL believe in.  
> 
> 
> http://louisproyect.org/2014/07/20/robert-parrys-folly/ 
> 
> On Saturday, July 19, 2014 9:45:43 PM UTC-4, Clay Claiborne wrote:
> >
> > Robert Parry uses the Obama's administration's "Rush to Judgement" as to 
> > Assad's responsibility for the August sarin gas attack, which we all know 





  

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Re: [Marxism] and now tragically, inevitably, we have this...

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
==


So with all the back and forth on mainly egos and information on "who did what" 
-
whether Syria, Iraq, Ukraine, etc. - I continue to detect on this Marxist List 
discussions
people promoting/cheer leading U. S. (capitalist) government military and 
economic
aggression and interference in these and other nations - and others promoting 
the
Russia (capitalist) government and its allies/proxies (capitalist) states 
actions.
 
While I like the historical information some people share on this list, I wish
there was more a direction on how people can help REAL socialists in these
different lands, than to this ideological and too much male ego strutting - on
generals with no armies reviewing their "battle strategies".
 
There are real lives at stake - and those cheerleading for a USA or other 
capitalist
military to occupy and cause destruction, does nothing concretely to change 
things
that favor the poor and working people of this world.
 
Why are people expecting/hoping/viewing on this List, the USA government and
its allies/proxies - being a "positive" alternative to expand spheres of 
influence
and power in this world?   And everyone who has written their "criticism" of the
USA government "not doing more" (meaning militarily/economically) under the
Obama administration (who would not do so if Bush, Reagan were presidents)
in Sudan, Iran, Libya, Iraq, Egypt, Palestine and now Ukraine - promote peace,
justice or socialism?  They seem to more identify with the USA military Empire, 
   
than in efforts to establish worker democracies.
 
The collapse of the Stalinist Soviet Union, should have energized people on
this list to help reach out and assist in many ways in building left groups in
those former Soviet republics and in Eastern Europe.   Instead we have seen
people just writing among themselves - and instead of outreach building
in other nations and the ones they reside in - "cheerleading" for president
Obama to use MORE military and economic force to be the "Big Bully" in
the world!  We need to do away with the cheer leading for Putin and Obama
and spend real time on promoting socialism - the only real hope for this
world, that many such as myself on this List, STILL believe in.  
> 
> 
> http://louisproyect.org/2014/07/20/robert-parrys-folly/ 
> 
> On Saturday, July 19, 2014 9:45:43 PM UTC-4, Clay Claiborne wrote:
> >
> > Robert Parry uses the Obama's administration's "Rush to Judgement" as to 
> > Assad's responsibility for the August sarin gas attack, which we all know 




  

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Re: [Marxism] and now tragically, inevitably, we have this...

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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http://louisproyect.org/2014/07/20/robert-parrys-folly/ 

On Saturday, July 19, 2014 9:45:43 PM UTC-4, Clay Claiborne wrote:
>
> Robert Parry uses the Obama's administration's "Rush to Judgement" as to 
> Assad's responsibility for the August sarin gas attack, which we all know 
> was disproved by an assortment of conspiracy theories, as a cautionary tale 
> against "jumping to conclusions" about Putin and MH 17.
>
>
> http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/19/airline-horror-spurs-new-rush-to-judgment/
>
>
>
> Clay Claiborne, Director
> Vietnam: American Holocaust 
> Linux Beach Productions
> Venice, CA 90291
> (310) 581-1536
>
> Read my blogs at the Linux Beach   
> 
>  

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[Marxism] and now tragically, inevitably, we have this...

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
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Robert Parry uses the Obama's administration's "Rush to Judgement" as to
Assad's responsibility for the August sarin gas attack, which we all know
was disproved by an assortment of conspiracy theories, as a cautionary tale
against "jumping to conclusions" about Putin and MH 17.

http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/19/airline-horror-spurs-new-rush-to-judgment/



Clay Claiborne, Director
Vietnam: American Holocaust 
Linux Beach Productions
Venice, CA 90291
(310) 581-1536

Read my blogs at the Linux Beach 


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