Re: [Marxism] Voting with feet, not commendable in Argentina Re: China'shigh speed rail plans
What about the ERP? Wikipedia has an article on them that I think includes links to YouTube stuff on them in Spanish. they were at the heart of a heated faction fight within the trotskyist movement back in the 70s even though had summarily split from that at the time. While they were largely wiped out, Shining Path had more success with this strategy in Peru until they too were ultimately defeated. Then again, the demographics of Peru aren't the same as those of Argentina. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Revolutionary_Army_%28Argentina%29 _ Windows Live: Keep your friends up to date with what you do online. http://windowslive.com/Campaign/SocialNetworking?ocid=PID23285::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:SI_SB_online:082009 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Voting with feet, not commendable in Argentina Re: China'shigh speed rail plans
Yes, they openly and contemptuously repudiated trotskyism in favor of their version of Guevaraism The view you espouse I think was that of Nahuel Moreno and his faction of the PRT, a distinction the Wiki article on the PRT missed. Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 16:14:47 -0300 From: nmg...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Marxism] Voting with feet, not commendable in Argentina Re: China'shigh speed rail plans To: t...@hotmail.com I have also sent long commentaries on ERP to the list, long years ago. In a nutshell, ERP was never Trotskyist in any serious sense. _ With Windows Live, you can organize, edit, and share your photos. http://www.windowslive.com/Desktop/PhotoGallery YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Voting with feet, not commendable in Argentina Re: China'shigh speed rail plans
I appreciate Nestor's take on the ERP. First time I read anything he wrote on this. Santucho...any SWPers here remember if he was the guy who showed up at the SWP convention in 1973? At least he was NY I think. Very 'hush hush' and all that. I agree about the ERP's Trotskyism. It was episodic and but they certainly were not anti-Trotskyist. They view the world revolution in terms of unity of the all the radical workers states: Cuba, N. Korea, Vietnam and the armed left in Latin America and South America and the 4th International in new sort of 5th International opposed to Russian style communism. We have much of their writings translated into English if anyone wants to read them. They are quite fascinating to get a handle on how the politics of their...revolutionary will...manifested their POV on paper. It's our Trotskyism and Armed Struggle section of the ETOL: http://marxists.org/history/etol/document/argentina/prt/index.htm David YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Voting with feet, not commendable in Argentina Re: China'shigh speed rail plans
No, my view is not exactly that of Moreno. However, maybe you refer to the dispute between the PRT and PST of those times on electoral tactics, etc. Tom Cod escribió: Yes, they openly and contemptuously repudiated trotskyism in favor of their version of Guevaraism The view you espouse I think was that of Nahuel Moreno and his faction of the PRT, a distinction the Wiki article on the PRT missed. Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 16:14:47 -0300 From: nmg...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Marxism] Voting with feet, not commendable in Argentina Re: China'shigh speed rail plans To: t...@hotmail.com I have also sent long commentaries on ERP to the list, long years ago. In a nutshell, ERP was never Trotskyist in any serious sense. YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Voting with feet, not commendable in Argentina Re: China'shigh speed rail plans
Why do you say that? Clearly one can have differences with their tactics and strategy, but to say they were not a leftist group or were not to the left of Peron seems dubious and sectarian. Moreover, why then did the Peron regime and its successors do so much to repress and kill them? Surely you don't mean to suggest we shouldn't have solidarity with them? By that logic the Weathermen were to the right of Nixon? (BTW, there was an excellent three hour interview on C-SPAN2 last night with Bill Ayers and Bernadine Dohrn) Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2009 00:07:44 -0300 From: nmg...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Marxism] Voting with feet, not commendable in Argentina Re:China'shigh speed rail plans To: t...@hotmail.com Look, Kosslof, if you think the Montoneros were in any way on Perón´s left, as most standard leftists in Arg believe, then you are so far away from Marxism that, as I guessed, it is pointless to discuss any of these issues with you. _ Get back to school stuff for them and cashback for you. http://www.bing.com/cashback?form=MSHYCBpubl=WLHMTAGcrea=TEXT_MSHYCB_BackToSchool_Cashback_BTSCashback_1x1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Voting with feet, not commendable in Argentina Re: China'shigh speed rail plans
Of course we should have given them all our solidarity. But they were certainly NOT TO THE LEFT OF Perón. Been explaining this on the list long ago. When and if I have time again will expand fully in the future. 2009/9/6 Tom Cod t...@hotmail.com: Why do you say that? Clearly one can have differences with their tactics and strategy, but to say they were not a leftist group or were not to the left of Peron seems dubious and sectarian. Moreover, why then did the Peron regime and its successors do so much to repress and kill them? Surely you don't mean to suggest we shouldn't have solidarity with them? By that logic the Weathermen were to the right of Nixon? (BTW, there was an excellent three hour interview on C-SPAN2 last night with Bill Ayers and Bernadine Dohrn) Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2009 00:07:44 -0300 From: nmg...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Marxism] Voting with feet, not commendable in Argentina Re: China'shigh speed rail plans To: t...@hotmail.com Look, Kosslof, if you think the Montoneros were in any way on Perón´s left, as most standard leftists in Arg believe, then you are so far away from Marxism that, as I guessed, it is pointless to discuss any of these issues with you. _ Get back to school stuff for them and cashback for you. http://www.bing.com/cashback?form=MSHYCBpubl=WLHMTAGcrea=TEXT_MSHYCB_BackToSchool_Cashback_BTSCashback_1x1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/nmgoro%40gmail.com -- Néstor Gorojovsky El texto principal de este correo puede no ser de mi autoría YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Voting with feet, not commendable in Argentina Re: China'shigh speed rail plans
Nestor: I agree with all that Lueko has answered you Re: what is all that that he ‘has answered’?, he asked me a question, if I have anything to add to the little detail that the Chinese bureaucracy personifies the interests of capital, I assume he then acknowledges that that’s in fact the role of the CCP, am I right Lueko?, Nestor: Leonardo you ignorant Re: Nestor shows the level of his dialectical materialism once more and addresses me personally –“puteando”: throwing insult- before replying to my claim made two posts ago: that his comments so far implicitly take the consciousness of commodity producers as determined outside the sphere of capital accumulation, that is, as abstract consciousness,… do any of the Nestor’s posts mention value, relative surplus-value, methods of production in China?, do any of Nestor’s posts talk about how workers are separated from the conditions of production, capital is accumulated, in China? Not so far. Hence, unless we understand capital in the same terms of bourgeois political economy, the determinations of consciousness have not been addressed by Nestor -lest you think Marx wrote Capital because he was masturbating-, instead he proceeds to falsely S.Artesian's claim, which is the one my intervention started with: him saying the CCP ‘uses’ capitalism to build socialism, this was Nestor a few posts ago: 'It is one thing to _use_ capitalism, and a different one to _bow_ to capitalism. The whole thing when it comes to the China debate is whether the Chinese leadership _uses_ capitalism or _bows_ to it, which implies bowing to imperialism. China is not doing the latter. Doing the former, of course, entails the most serious risks. ' Nestor: I would add a single question: Re: As for the three questions below… Nestor: (a) what were the interests and desires of Arg workers that Peron, as you bluntly and automatically parrot, betrayed? Re: Well Nestor, this might just be me masturbating here, but as I take it from the Communist Manifesto, the interests of Argentinean workers run parallel to the interests of workers around the world: the overthrow of capital. Now I suppose you mean specific issues, how Peron exterminated Montoneros, how he was a closet fascist, how he sold out YPF, how he opened the gates to the dictatorship which came after his terms? But may I kindly request you answer my question first, because I think the objective issues (capitalism, for only then can we begin to clear up how these interests have been betrayed) are a tad more important than ideological polemic, again, you wouldn’t want anyone to think that you’re just hiding behind your dialectical mantle in order to ensconce your evasion. Nestor: And (b) who are you, what is the stool you stand up on to define what were, are or will ever be the interests of Arg workers? Re: See above Nestor: That is, who do you think you are, Leonardo? Re: That’s a nice question to masturbate over, let me do that and get back atcha. _ Windows Live: Keep your friends up to date with what you do online. http://windowslive.com/Campaign/SocialNetworking?ocid=PID23285::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:SI_SB_online:082009 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Voting with feet, not commendable in Argentina Re: China'shigh speed rail plans
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAWQkY8Rlbg _ With Windows Live, you can organize, edit, and share your photos. http://www.windowslive.com/Desktop/PhotoGallery YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
