At 12:00 PM 7/5/2005 +0200, Oudeyis wrote: Steve, I really do not
have enough time to devote to answering this message as it
deserves. So please excuse the briefness of my responses.
No problem at all. I am happy to let that response be the last major
word on this discussion for now, which
raised by Karl Marx and
thethinkers he inspired marxism-thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu
Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 13:36
Subject: Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] O, Dialectics! :Bakhurst (response
toarrowlessness)
At 12:00 PM 7/5/2005 +0200, Oudeyis wrote: Steve, I really do not have
enough time to devote
by Karl Marx
andthe thinkers he inspired' marxism-thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2005 20:03
Subject: [Marxism-Thaxis] O, Dialectics! :Bakhurst
Victor :
CB,
Continued from last message.
First, let's not forget that a lot of human learning is human see human
do. And some
social activity.
Oudeyis
- Original Message -
From: Charles Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'Forum for the discussion of theoretical issues raised by Karl Marx
andthe thinkers he inspired' marxism-thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2005 16:49
Subject: [Marxism-Thaxis] O
I've not had time to keep up with your ongoing debate on Ilyenkov. Since
you are apparently preparing something for publication, I hope you will
apprise us of the finished product. This line of enquiry, it seems to me,
is much more important than most philosophical projects being undertaken.
Victor:
I'm not sure of it either.
However, it appears to me that we can distinguish social labour, direct
cooperation, from characteristically human labour, that is social labour
that is special since it involves the production and use of tools for
realization of material social goals.
I am responding to a 6/22/2005 post from Victor, which I quote from.
The quote below is a good example of where I think Victor gets Ilyenkov
wrong 180 degrees. In the general section of Ilyenkov's 1977 essay The
Concept of the Ideal that Victor quotes from, I believe Ilyenkov is making
just
This is going to take a little time, you raised some heavy questions here.
Oudeyis
- Original Message -
From: Ralph Dumain [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: marxism-thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu
Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2005 17:17
Subject: Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] O, Dialectics! :Bakhurst
At 02:12 PM
- Original Message -
From: Steve Gabosch [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Forum for the discussion of theoretical issues raised by Karl Marx and
thethinkers he inspired marxism-thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu
Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2005 12:40
Subject: Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] O, Dialectics! :Bakhurst
Subject: Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] O, Dialectics! :Bakhurst
I am responding to a 6/22/2005 post from Victor, which I quote from.
The quote below is a good example of where I
think Victor gets Ilyenkov wrong 180
degrees. In the general section of Ilyenkov's
1977 essay The Concept of the Ideal
, Victor wrote:
- Original Message - From: Ralph Dumain [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: marxism-thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu
Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 10:17
Subject: Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] O, Dialectics! :Bakhurst
What in bloody hell does this mean?
At 09:32 AM 6/21/2005 +0200, Victor wrote
I am confused by this beyond the reasonably clear first and third sentences
of the first paragraph and the first sentence of the second paragraph.
At 07:51 PM 6/20/2005 +0200, Victor wrote:
I regard Ilyenkov's contribution rather as the Logic (method or met) for a
practical (materialist or
Comments to selected extracts below
At 01:43 PM 6/19/2005 +0200, Victor wrote:
Ideality like spoken language is not one thing or another, but two things,
the objectified notion in consciousness and its material representation by
some form of language, united as a more concrete concept, the
AM 6/21/2005 +0200, Victor wrote:
- Original Message - From: Ralph Dumain [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: marxism-thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu
Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 10:17
Subject: Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] O, Dialectics! :Bakhurst
What in bloody hell does this mean?
At 09:32 AM 6/21/2005 +0200
I've isolated the difficult passages and commented on them below.
- Original Message -
From: Ralph Dumain [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: marxism-thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu
Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2005 10:16
Subject: Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] O, Dialectics! :Bakhurst
I am confused by this beyond
Comments on the commentary included below.
- Original Message -
From: Ralph Dumain [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: marxism-thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu
Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2005 10:25
Subject: Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] O, Dialectics! :Bakhurst
Comments to selected extracts below
At 01:43 PM
At 02:12 PM 6/22/2005 +0200, Victor wrote:
Hegel regards objectification as simply the alienation of spirit in the
object. The ideal itself is the alienated spirit that has become a
universal through the mediation of language. True, I've not addressed the
problem of whether Hegel regarded
What in bloody hell does this mean?
At 09:32 AM 6/21/2005 +0200, Victor wrote:
Science is founded as ideas, but unlike Hegel's ideal (which as Marx put
it is as nothing else but the form of social activity represented in the
thing or conversely the form of human creativity represented as a
- Original Message -
From: Ralph Dumain [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: marxism-thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu
Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 10:17
Subject: Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] O, Dialectics! :Bakhurst
What in bloody hell does this mean?
At 09:32 AM 6/21/2005 +0200, Victor wrote:
Science
Victor
As I see it, the key concept in this regard that Ilyenkov offers is that
just as Marx discovered how social relations can be embodied into things
in the form of commodities - through the incorporation of abstract labor
into the value-form - so too, Marxists can explain that social
Steve Gabosch
a) where is ideality located?
I would answer a) in cultural artifacts, using the term in its broadest
possible sense (tools, signs, all human creations and observations,
etc.) I think you would answer a) in representations.
^
CB: How about in the relationship between the
@lists.econ.utah.edu
Sent: Monday, June 20, 2005 15:43
Subject: [Marxism-Thaxis] O, Dialectics! :Bakhurst
Victor
The social relations are not embodied in a particular coat or in a
particular bale of linen. These are material objects whose concreteness
are
beyond the capacity of human conceptualisation
Victor,
I have read your response carefully. I think I am getting a handle on our
differing approaches. They seem to emerge in the way we understand issues
such as:
a) where is ideality located?
b) where is value is located?
c) what is the essence of ideality?
d) what is the essence of
, 2005 10:11
Subject: Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] O, Dialectics! :Bakhurst
Victor,
I have read your response carefully. I think I am getting a handle on our
differing approaches. They seem to emerge in the way we understand issues
such as:
a) where is ideality located?
b) where is value is located
Subject: Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] O, Dialectics! :Bakhurst
Victor,
I spent a little time reviewing Ilyenkov's article The Concept of the
Ideal (available on MIA ), and the notes I published on xmca about it
last year. Below, I have copied paragraphs 66 - 90 from EVI's
142-paragraph essay. I don't
PROTECTED]
To: Forum for the discussion of theoretical issues raised by Karl Marx
and thethinkers he inspired marxism-thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu
Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 4:30
Subject: Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] O, Dialectics! :Bakhurst
Hi Victor,
Interestingly, footnote one in a paper by Lantolf
I am not at all up to speed on the German Marxist Sohn-Rethel (please
help), but a thought immediately comes to mind on Popper's Three Worlds
cosmology.
If one ignores the positivist framework of these three worlds invented by
Popper and attempts to make them as dynamic and dialectical as
Hi Victor,
Interestingly, footnote one in a paper by Lantolf and Thorne that is
getting discussed on the xmca list - the paper is at
http://communication.ucsd.edu/MCA/Paper/JuneJuly05/LantolfThorne2005.pdfIntroduction,
in Sociocultural Theory and the Genesis of Second Language Development -
for the
help.
Oudeyis
- Original Message -
From: Steve Gabosch [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Forum for the discussion of theoretical issues raised by Karl Marx and
thethinkers he inspired marxism-thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu
Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 4:30
Subject: Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: marxism-thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu
Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 2:10
Subject: Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] O, Dialectics! :Bakhurst
Hi Victor,
If I am getting your first point, that Bakhurst incorrectly takes Diamat
as serious theory, then you are speaking to what I referred
Victor,
Thanks for the refresher course on Rosenburg, which becomes a history of
the Nazi party from 1921. It is always good to be reminded of what
happened in Germany.
Your comments on Dubrovsky are very interesting, as is your analysis of
Bakhurst. I also read your descriptions of
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