Re: [Marxism] Corbyn's fate
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * First a note to Jamie. Jeezuss, if I am more optimistic than you, then we are in trouble, Jamie. The 55% was a reference to a poll in the Times which gave Corbyn 54% support for staying on as leader. That was from a tweet on Lenin' s Tomb. Another tweet said that his support int he public was70%. Your comment on Chilcott was interesting - very. I had forgotten about that entirely Now I am channeling Lenin's Tomb here when I argue that Corbyn tried to nuance his support for Remain. He sought presumably to avoid the fate of the Scottish Labour Party. They defeated the Independence referendum and were subsequently slaughtered. But nuanced support does no mean that Corbyn is a centrist. Quite clearly he is not and most of his troubles spring from that. The right of the Labour Party seeks to eliminate the Left - *tout court.* the left under Corbyn did not seek to do that and now we have the Left fighting for its life. I believe that Corbyn can recapture the enthusiasm of his campaign for leadership. Eagle has everything going for her but the people. I think so because I believe we are in a period where the hegemony of the elites, the ruling class is under stress. They cannot simply be told what to do any more. But of course I could be wrong and the common sense of the Right of Labour and of the Media could prevail and we could see the defeat of Corbyn. If that happens, thousands will flock out of the Labour Party and something else will emerge. Richard's prediction is we are heading for a split. We shall see. comradely Gary Gary On Thu, Jun 30, 2016 at 6:13 AM, Thomas via Marxism < marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote: > POSTING RULES & NOTES > #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. > #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. > * > > Corbyn's half-hearted support for Remain pleased neither supporters nor > opponents on that question. What support he has left among the membership > in a membership vote, if there is one, remains to be seen. This is a time > of polarization, not a time favorable to centrist politicians who are > neither here nor there. > > T > > > > -Original Message- > >From: Anthony Hartin via Marxism <marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> > >Sent: Jun 29, 2016 3:16 PM > >To: Thomas F Barton <thomasfbar...@earthlink.net> > >Subject: Re: [Marxism] Corbyn's fate > > > > POSTING RULES & NOTES > >#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > >#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. > >#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. > >* > > > >Hi Gary, > > > >Looks like our side are standing strong. The big four unions are all in > >support of Corbyn. The Blairites are struggling to find a candidate to > >run against Corbyn - Watson wont run & Eagle's own constituency has come > >out in support of Corbyn. There is more and more talk of the Blairites > >splitting. My take is that they (the Blairites) have been chafing at the > >bit & cant stand listening to progressive politics anymore. They tried > >it on with the "anti-semitisim" furphy a few weeks ago & now they've > >jumped the gun, waving their swords around and leaving only their own > >blood on the floor and walls. > > > >I am hoping now for a repeat in the conservatives. I can't believe the > >old wounds wont open up over Brexit. By the time of the next election, > >which I dont think is that far away, it could be anyone's game. If the > >Blairites go, then the space opens up for Corbyn and co to really push > >progressive politics. > > > >cheers, > > > >Tony > > > > > > > >On 06/29/2016 11:49 AM, Gary MacLennan wrote: > >> Hi Anthony > >> > >> good to hear from you. I am currently living on a diet of Richard > >> Seymour's tweets! (& what Lou forwards to the list). So it is hard for > >> me to guess at the mood. The Guardian is infuriating in its stupid > >> comment about the Corbyn "experiment". I feel like resorting to > >> obs
Re: [Marxism] Corbyn's fate
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Corbyn's half-hearted support for Remain pleased neither supporters nor opponents on that question. What support he has left among the membership in a membership vote, if there is one, remains to be seen. This is a time of polarization, not a time favorable to centrist politicians who are neither here nor there. T -Original Message- >From: Anthony Hartin via Marxism <marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> >Sent: Jun 29, 2016 3:16 PM >To: Thomas F Barton <thomasfbar...@earthlink.net> >Subject: Re: [Marxism] Corbyn's fate > > POSTING RULES & NOTES >#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. >#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. >#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. >* > >Hi Gary, > >Looks like our side are standing strong. The big four unions are all in >support of Corbyn. The Blairites are struggling to find a candidate to >run against Corbyn - Watson wont run & Eagle's own constituency has come >out in support of Corbyn. There is more and more talk of the Blairites >splitting. My take is that they (the Blairites) have been chafing at the >bit & cant stand listening to progressive politics anymore. They tried >it on with the "anti-semitisim" furphy a few weeks ago & now they've >jumped the gun, waving their swords around and leaving only their own >blood on the floor and walls. > >I am hoping now for a repeat in the conservatives. I can't believe the >old wounds wont open up over Brexit. By the time of the next election, >which I dont think is that far away, it could be anyone's game. If the >Blairites go, then the space opens up for Corbyn and co to really push >progressive politics. > >cheers, > >Tony > > > >On 06/29/2016 11:49 AM, Gary MacLennan wrote: >> Hi Anthony >> >> good to hear from you. I am currently living on a diet of Richard >> Seymour's tweets! (& what Lou forwards to the list). So it is hard for >> me to guess at the mood. The Guardian is infuriating in its stupid >> comment about the Corbyn "experiment". I feel like resorting to >> obscenities to describe them. >> >> Richard in one of his tweets said there were cracks coming in the >> union front, but he appears to think their support for Corbyn will >> stay solid. If they do, then the goose of the Blairites is cooked. >> >> I wonder if listers agree with me that the Blairites overplayed their >> hand, such is their born to rule arrogance. >> >> I am convinced (hoping?) that the election for the Labour leader will >> turn out to be a "fête dans les rues." Certainly it is a chance for >> Momentum to drive home their hegemony on the Left. BTW I cannot see >> this campaign being as friendly as the last one. >> >> Having said all that a small part of me thinks that another effort >> will be made to reach a deal and so prevent an election for leader. >> >> comradely >> >> Gary > >_ >Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm >Set your options at: >http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/thomasfbarton%40earthlink.net _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Corbyn's fate
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * So the resignations keep on coming. Its now up to 65, plus all the MEPs joining the chorus for Corbyn to go. Im wondering if there's another mechanism within the ultra bureaucratic party rules that corbyns opposition are looking at; some sort of party equivalent of ‘constructive dismissal’? I also read they're going to try and coronate an alternative leader within parliament, even before a leadership election, leaving Jeremy as nominal national leader only. Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Gary MacLennan _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Corbyn's fate
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Hi Gary, I thought you mentioned 55% somewhere and wasn't sure what that reflected. Anyway, we're not in disagreement apart from I think its pretty obvious you're far more optimistic in outlook than I am generally. I would say Im unconvinced any deal can be made. All the PLP want is for Corbyn to go – hardly a basis for negotiation or compromise. Second, I think you underestimate how willing the PLP are to split the party. In the local elections, they genuinely seemed happy when Labour lost seats so that they could blame Corbyn. Two other important points upcoming: the loss of support from the likes of owen smith and andy slaughter is a really bad bellwether for Corbyn – these are not in any way Blairites. But, if his team are savvy, they could use the upcoming Chilcott report to bash the Blairites with. Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Gary MacLennan _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Corbyn's fate
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Hi Jamie thank you for commenting on my post. I don't think I have said any thing about Corbyn's electability or his popularity in terms of the general elrctorate in any of my posts, so I dont feel I have to supply a source. I have said though that he will defeat the candidate of the Blairites in a contest for leadership. I am not sure if you disagree with this. In any case we are in strong agreement about the unstable nature of the conjuncture. I know it is foolish, but I can't stop myself trying to predict and that is why I still expect a deal, tbat is a pull back from the abyss. comradely Gary _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Corbyn's fate
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * I disagree about the balance of forces. *As long as he’s on the ballot* the best thing Corbyn can do is have the leadership election and reinforce his mandate. Second, Corbyn has managed to make the Labour party specifically, and electoral politics in general, seem worth bothering with to disenchanted people like me, and even the present generation of young anarchists. So his support on the wider far left is uniquely strong. But his support nationally is awful, so ill say again he has worse approval ratings than Miliband's, which is unprecedented. If you've read something that contradicts that, you should provide a link (this is the make-or-break question if we have a snap general election (which isn't guaranteed)) Obviously the UK is living through the most turbulent political period in anybody's living memory, so even accurate opinion polls can be contradicted within days in times when history seems to have accelerated. Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Gary MacLennan via Marxism _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Corbyn's fate
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Hi Anthony good to hear from you. I am currently living on a diet of Richard Seymour's tweets! (& what Lou forwards to the list). So it is hard for me to guess at the mood. The Guardian is infuriating in its stupid comment about the Corbyn "experiment". I feel like resorting to obscenities to describe them. Richard in one of his tweets said there were cracks coming in the union front, but he appears to think their support for Corbyn will stay solid. If they do, then the goose of the Blairites is cooked. I wonder if listers agree with me that the Blairites overplayed their hand, such is their born to rule arrogance. I am convinced (hoping?) that the election for the Labour leader will turn out to be a "fête dans les rues." Certainly it is a chance for Momentum to drive home their hegemony on the Left. BTW I cannot see this campaign being as friendly as the last one. Having said all that a small part of me thinks that another effort will be made to reach a deal and so prevent an election for leader. comradely Gary On Wed, Jun 29, 2016 at 6:08 PM, Anthony Hartin via Marxism < marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote: > POSTING RULES & NOTES > #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. > #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. > * > > Hi Gary, > > When I lived in the UK, I didnt go to every demo, but just about every > demo I did go to, Corbyn was speaking at. What astonished me was that the > Labour Party could still house someone like him. While the likes of Corbyn, > Diane Abbott etc. are still in there, I can't completely hate the Labour > Party. > > I think the Blairites (and the "softies" in between) are unable to > psychologically process that Corbyn is not acting out of ego but out of > principle - and so wont fold under 10 times the pressure that any of them > could tolerate. > > Corbyn knows he is a left pole of attraction at the moment, no matter how > long or short-lived it will be. I'm sure he didnt expect it, but there it > is. He wont budge until the members vote him out. I expect that the members > admiration will have grown. If Corbyn survives until the next election, we > can only hope that Momentum and other Left currents grow and the blairites > are deselected. > > > -- > Anthony Hartin > > DESY, CFEL, room 99/03.114 > Notkestrasse 85, Hamburg 22607 > Tel: +49(0)40 8998 6265 > Fax: +49(0)40 8998 > Mob: +49(0)151 51167720 > anthony.har...@desy.de > http://www.desy.de/~hartin > > _ > Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm > Set your options at: > http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/gary.maclennan1%40gmail.com > _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Corbyn's fate
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Hi Gary, When I lived in the UK, I didnt go to every demo, but just about every demo I did go to, Corbyn was speaking at. What astonished me was that the Labour Party could still house someone like him. While the likes of Corbyn, Diane Abbott etc. are still in there, I can't completely hate the Labour Party. I think the Blairites (and the "softies" in between) are unable to psychologically process that Corbyn is not acting out of ego but out of principle - and so wont fold under 10 times the pressure that any of them could tolerate. Corbyn knows he is a left pole of attraction at the moment, no matter how long or short-lived it will be. I'm sure he didnt expect it, but there it is. He wont budge until the members vote him out. I expect that the members admiration will have grown. If Corbyn survives until the next election, we can only hope that Momentum and other Left currents grow and the blairites are deselected. -- Anthony Hartin DESY, CFEL, room 99/03.114 Notkestrasse 85, Hamburg 22607 Tel: +49(0)40 8998 6265 Fax: +49(0)40 8998 Mob: +49(0)151 51167720 anthony.har...@desy.de http://www.desy.de/~hartin _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Corbyn's fate
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * The events in the UK have moved at a break neck pace since the referendum. Etienne Balibar's blog on the Verso site contains an interesting argument that most referenda are ignored and as a consequence what appears to be happening may not eventuate. Some sort of compromise will be cobbled together. He does have the interesting comment "we are witnessing a *destituent *process that for the moment has no *constituent* counterpart". That would certainly appear to be an apt description of what is going on the the British Labour Party. The rush towards the destituent end of the spectrum would seem to be unstoppable. I will be frank and admit I am astonished that Corbyn has not yielded to the pressure and made some deal. The coup plotters have over played their hand totally. They can only destroy the Party from here, if things proceed to an election. A victory for Corbyn means that the Blairites will have been exposed as a over represented minority. They cannot afford that. I, as you all know, suspect that Burnham will make a move but he will not cut it without explicit endorsement from Corbyn. The compromise of putting McDonnell forward as an alternative has been mooted, but seemingly absolutely rejected. The polls suggest that if Corbyn stands he will win massively his standing among members is around 70%, it would seem. Among the wider public it is over 55%. So my reading of the situation is that, contrary to all the media hype and the noise from the commentariat, Corbyn is in a strong position. He can break and remake the Labour Party, while the Blairites etc can only break. I may be hopelessly wrong here. That is one of the dangers of commentary from afar. But I will also run up my flag. I hope that Corbyn stands firm and does no deal. And I hope the people have the strength to take the opportunity and settle accounts with the politics of Blairism by backing Corbyn massively. But the scale of the change all this would bring about is almost beyond comprehension. For the Capitalist class, the crisis in the tried and trusted second eleven must be a source of some anxiety. When the First Eleven, the Tory Party, gets into a muddle, it is always handy to put the second eleven, the Labour Party, in for a while. But that may not be possible ever again. There may be no Labour Party! comradely Gary _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
