Re: [Marxism] Erdogan’s imperial play comes undone

[mkaradjis . via Marxism]

ink Turkey will help them.  It will repress them in the areas it
> controls.
>
> The democratic revolution survives in north-eastern Syria, under very
> difficult circumstances.
> But Turkey, through its invasion of Afrin and now its invasion of
> northeastern Syria, is trying to suppress it.
>
> The term "sub-imperialist" seems applicable to Turkey, which "plays an
> imperialist-like role regionally".  It intervenes militarily in Syria and
> Iraq, has bases in Qatar and Somalia, and has sent a contingent of Syrian
> mercenaries to Libya.
>
> Chris Slee
>
> 
> From: Marxism  on behalf of Walter
> Daum via Marxism 
> Sent: Thursday, 5 March 2020 10:40 AM
> To: Chris Slee 
> Subject: Re: [Marxism] Erdogan’s imperial play comes undone
>
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>
> Sub-imperialism is a valid and important concept. Callinicos is right that
> it was introduced by Marini with regard to Brazil, and it has been extended
> by Patrick Bond and others to South Africa. In the Middle East it might
> well apply to Iran and Turkey. As I read him, Marini regards a state as
> sub-imperialist if it is not imperialist on the world scale (it remains
> exploited by the imperialist powers) but plays an imperialist-like role
> regionally.
> Callinicos has abused the term by applying it over-widely and ignoring the
> “sub” aspect. His tendency, for example, labeled Argentina sub-imperialist
> in order to avoid taking sides against Britain in the Malvinas/Falklands
> war in 1982. In effect the IST treated the war as an inter-imperialist
> conflict. They seem to be doing the same to avoid taking the side of Turkey
> against Russia, to the extent that for his own reasons and for the moment
> Erdogan is defending the remnants of the Syrian democratic revolution.
> The RKOB is right about Callinicos. But his misuse of the term doesn’t
> mean that sub-imperialism has to be confusing.
>
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Re: [Marxism] Erdogan’s imperial play comes undone

[Chris Slee via Marxism]

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I don't agree that "...Erdogan is defending the remnants of the Syrian 
democratic revolution".

Within Idlib province, the democratic revolution had largely been destroyed by 
reactionary groups, some of which are backed by Turkey, even before Assad's 
recent offensive.

For example, one of the centres of the revolution was the town of Saraqib. But 
democratic forces there came under attack from a series of reactionary groups, 
and eventually had to leave the town. A February 10 article on the Guardian 
website quotes a democratic activist, Odai al-Hussein, who said:

"We wanted a free Syria for all Syrians but they [the reactionary groups] 
wanted an Islamic state. We continued against all the odds: we challenged the 
[Assad] regime, Ahrar al-Sham, Islamic State and al-Nusra. In the end the 
jihadists took over, but we left our city with dignity knowing how much we 
endured to keep Saraqib free".

I am sure there are still people struggling for democracy in Idlib, but I don't 
think Turkey will help them.  It will repress them in the areas it controls.

The democratic revolution survives in north-eastern Syria, under very difficult 
circumstances. 
But Turkey, through its invasion of Afrin and now its invasion of northeastern 
Syria, is trying to suppress it.

The term "sub-imperialist" seems applicable to Turkey, which "plays an 
imperialist-like role regionally".  It intervenes militarily in Syria and Iraq, 
has bases in Qatar and Somalia, and has sent a contingent of Syrian mercenaries 
to Libya.

Chris Slee


From: Marxism  on behalf of Walter Daum 
via Marxism 
Sent: Thursday, 5 March 2020 10:40 AM
To: Chris Slee 
Subject: Re: [Marxism] Erdogan’s imperial play comes undone

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Sub-imperialism is a valid and important concept. Callinicos is right that it 
was introduced by Marini with regard to Brazil, and it has been extended by 
Patrick Bond and others to South Africa. In the Middle East it might well apply 
to Iran and Turkey. As I read him, Marini regards a state as sub-imperialist if 
it is not imperialist on the world scale (it remains exploited by the 
imperialist powers) but plays an imperialist-like role regionally.
Callinicos has abused the term by applying it over-widely and ignoring the 
“sub” aspect. His tendency, for example, labeled Argentina sub-imperialist in 
order to avoid taking sides against Britain in the Malvinas/Falklands war in 
1982. In effect the IST treated the war as an inter-imperialist conflict. They 
seem to be doing the same to avoid taking the side of Turkey against Russia, to 
the extent that for his own reasons and for the moment Erdogan is defending the 
remnants of the Syrian democratic revolution.
The RKOB is right about Callinicos. But his misuse of the term doesn’t mean 
that sub-imperialism has to be confusing.

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Re: [Marxism] Erdogan’s imperial play comes undone

[RKOB via Marxism]

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First, I would like to clarify that it was not my intention to make a 
vulgar slur against all supporters of the theory of sub-imperialism.


I think that it is wrong for reasons elaborated in the essay to which I 
provided a link (see also chapter 4 in the book "Anti-Imperialism in the 
Age of Great Power Rivalry", 
https://www.thecommunists.net/theory/anti-imperialism-in-the-age-of-great-power-rivalry/)


However, I am fully aware that comrades like Patrick Bond and others are 
serious thinkers and while I disagree with them on this issue, I had no 
intention denigrate them.


However, I think that the wrong theory of sub-imperialism opens the road 
(or provide a justification) for those like Callinicos/IST (and the same 
is true for the Australian GLW) to justify their abstentionism in the 
Syrian civil war by referring to Turkey's so-called sub-imperialism. In 
my opinion, Callinicos is just more consistent than others in 
designating all possible states around the world as "sub-imperialist" 
because they supposedly follow (or did follow in the past) an 
"aggressive foreign policy". In short, when it comes to draw political 
consequences - and I have emphasized this in various books and pamphlets 
- the theory of sub-imperialism opens the door to replace a Marxist 
class characterization of states with a bourgeois-liberal one. This was 
the idea behind my brief remark on Callinicos's article on Turkey yesterday.


Am 05.03.2020 um 00:40 schrieb Walter Daum via Marxism:

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Sub-imperialism is a valid and important concept. Callinicos is right that it 
was introduced by Marini with regard to Brazil, and it has been extended by 
Patrick Bond and others to South Africa. In the Middle East it might well apply 
to Iran and Turkey. As I read him, Marini regards a state as sub-imperialist if 
it is not imperialist on the world scale (it remains exploited by the 
imperialist powers) but plays an imperialist-like role regionally.
Callinicos has abused the term by applying it over-widely and ignoring the 
“sub” aspect. His tendency, for example, labeled Argentina sub-imperialist in 
order to avoid taking sides against Britain in the Malvinas/Falklands war in 
1982. In effect the IST treated the war as an inter-imperialist conflict. They 
seem to be doing the same to avoid taking the side of Turkey against Russia, to 
the extent that for his own reasons and for the moment Erdogan is defending the 
remnants of the Syrian democratic revolution.
The RKOB is right about Callinicos. But his misuse of the term doesn’t mean 
that sub-imperialism has to be confusing.

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Re: [Marxism] Erdogan’s imperial play comes undone

[Walter Daum via Marxism]

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Sub-imperialism is a valid and important concept. Callinicos is right that it 
was introduced by Marini with regard to Brazil, and it has been extended by 
Patrick Bond and others to South Africa. In the Middle East it might well apply 
to Iran and Turkey. As I read him, Marini regards a state as sub-imperialist if 
it is not imperialist on the world scale (it remains exploited by the 
imperialist powers) but plays an imperialist-like role regionally.
Callinicos has abused the term by applying it over-widely and ignoring the 
“sub” aspect. His tendency, for example, labeled Argentina sub-imperialist in 
order to avoid taking sides against Britain in the Malvinas/Falklands war in 
1982. In effect the IST treated the war as an inter-imperialist conflict. They 
seem to be doing the same to avoid taking the side of Turkey against Russia, to 
the extent that for his own reasons and for the moment Erdogan is defending the 
remnants of the Syrian democratic revolution. 
The RKOB is right about Callinicos. But his misuse of the term doesn’t mean 
that sub-imperialism has to be confusing.

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Re: [Marxism] Erdogan’s imperial play comes undone

[Ismail Lagardien via Marxism]

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Willfull obscurantism at its best. 



http://roape.net/2018/04/18/towards-a-broader-theory-of-imperialism/





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Re: [Marxism] Erdogan’s imperial play comes undone

[Patrick Bond via Marxism]

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On 3/4/2020 7:22 PM, RKOB via Marxism wrote:

...
This article is a good example of the weaknesses... Subscribing to 
confusing theories like that of "sub-imperialism" (which in the case 
of Turkey is a wellcome pretext for refusing to support the 
rebels/Turkish army against Russian imperialism and Assad the Butcher.)


Comrade, it doesn't need to be "confusing" ... some ideas on the 
categorisations are here: 
http://roape.net/2018/04/18/towards-a-broader-theory-of-imperialism/






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Re: [Marxism] Erdogan’s imperial play comes undone

[RKOB via Marxism]

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This article is a good example of the weaknesses of Callinicos resp. the 
IST:


1) Anglo-Saxon empirisim without taking clear positions.

2) Subscribing to confusing theories like that of "sub-imperialism" 
(which in the case of Turkey is a wellcome pretext for refusing to 
support the rebels/Turkish army against Russian imperialism and Assad 
the Butcher.) As we pointed out somewhere else, Callinicos/IST 
characterize quiet a number of countries as "sub-imperialist": "/Israel, 
Iran, Iraq, Egypt, Syria and Turkey (...) India, Vietnam, South Africa, 
Nigeria, Brazil and Argentina/.” 
(https://www.thecommunists.net/theory/semi-colonial-intermediate-powers-and-the-theory-of-sub-imperialism/)


Am 04.03.2020 um 14:43 schrieb Louis Proyect via Marxism:

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Alex Callinicos doing a Max Blumenthal impersonation.

https://socialistworker.co.uk/art/49692/Erdogans+imperial+play+comes+undone 


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