Re: [Marxism] FYI - I suspect a lot of other Syrians feel the same way

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 9/6/16 10:21 AM, Clay Claiborne via Marxism wrote:

The question here is not do you struggle with a Syrian revolutionary like
Robin around him using the word "bitch" ? [Remembering English is not his
1st language], of course you do.

Or do you cut him off forever because he used that word TWICE! and bring it
up even after he has corrected himself and while using a very offensive
term, because he doesn't like her, has dropped the sexism term


First of all, Robin Yassin-Kassab was in the ISO at one point so he 
knows something about Marxism. Second of all, his novel "Road to 
Damascus" was written in English, a language he speaks with a British 
accent and not an Arabic one.


For someone who has written about the need for human liberation, I find 
it appalling that he refers to Jill Stein as a "bitch" and a "piece of 
shit". You had nothing to do with the first word but I fault you for 
forwarding his tweet that contained the second imprecation in the hope 
apparently that we might do a breast-beating Maoist self-criticism for 
provoking him to lash out.


This guy is not a construction worker. He was the co-editor of Critical 
Muslim, a very advanced journal that I contributed two articles to with 
great pride. He is a novelist, an advanced political analyst and capable 
of nuanced language.


I find it deeply problematic that he stoops to such language to describe 
Jill Stein while the both of you endorse Hillary Clinton who voted for 
wars that cost the lives of a million Muslims. Stein's ideas are 
retrograde but she has never been near the seats of power or ever will be.

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Re: [Marxism] FYI - I suspect a lot of other Syrians feel the same way

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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Einde,

The question here is not do you struggle with a Syrian revolutionary like
Robin around him using the word "bitch" ? [Remembering English is not his
1st language], of course you do.

Or do you cut him off forever because he used that word TWICE! and bring it
up even after he has corrected himself and while using a very offensive
term, because he doesn't like her, has dropped the sexism term?

That was what Louis did and apparently expects from others. [why would I
forward anything from Robin to this list after he had called Stein a bitch
on his timeline!]

I should also point out that charges of sexism are claims that are often
falsely used by racists to attack non-white men so white Marxists need to
be aware of that and not make such changes lightly. Many Syrian refuges in
Germany and elsewhere have been tarred with changes of sexism. Also there
has been a longer history of this sort of thing with black men.

Louis taps into that often unconscious prejudice by accusing me of sexism
because I defended sending to this list a tweet written by someone who
twice used the word bitch elsewhere. I know he wants to take me down
because of my opposition to Stein, but this is not the right way to do it.
Same should be said about his attack on Robin.

Clay



Clay Claiborne, Director
Vietnam: American Holocaust 
Linux Beach Productions
Venice, CA 90291
(310) 581-1536

Read my blogs at the Linux Beach 


On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 12:54 AM, Einde OCallaghan via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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>
>
> Am 05.09.2016 um 16:49 schrieb Dennis Brasky via Marxism:
>
>>   POSTING RULES & NOTES  
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>>
>> How about the N word, homophobic words, anti-Muslim words? Are those OK in
>> the attempt to "connect" to the (backward sections) of the working class
>> and minority communities?? Sadly, his defending the most common
>> misogynistic term has caused me to lose respect for Clay.
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 5, 2016 at 10:39 AM, Clay Claiborne via Marxism <
>> marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:
>>
>> On this issue, I remember during the British Miners' Strike in 1984 on
> the firs tbig national demo there were 2 slogans raised by some miners on
> the first big national demo. One of the was "Ditch the bitch!", referring
> to Margaret Thatcher, and the other was "Get your tits out for the boys!"
> (the weather was very hot and many women were wearing summer tops). Women
> supporters of the miners didn't accept either slogan and there were many
> arguments on the demonstration that day where supporters of the strike
> (also many left-wing men) argued with these strikers about the use of
> demeaning language against women. These slogans were never used again on
> any of the later local and national demos.
>
> Admittedly there were some (nearly all men) who argued that the first
> slogan was an expression of class hatred and the second was just a bit of
> playful banter, but it was perfectly correct for the comrades to challenge
> the sexism they expressed.
>
> One other related issue - for years there'd been a campaign by socialists
> and feminists about the fact that every month in The Miner, the union
> paper, there was a topless picture of a miner's wife or girl friend. The
> editor argued that the women themsleves were queueing up to have they're
> pictures published. During the strike these pictures were dropped and never
> appeared in the paper again.
>
> Accepting sexism in the working class in any form is just as divisive as
> accepting racism in any form and it's prefectly correct for socialists to
> take issue with both these expressions of backward ideas.
>
> Einde O'Callaghan
>
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Re: [Marxism] FYI - I suspect a lot of other Syrians feel the same way

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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Those words are not okay, nor did I say they were okay. Some words which
can't be used here are regularly used by some working class and minorities
who are not backwards in other respects. I won't unfriend them for that.

When your narrow culture framework becomes the ground upon which you judge
others. When the word used becomes more important than its content. Then
you are lost.

Clay Claiborne, Director
Vietnam: American Holocaust 
Linux Beach Productions
Venice, CA 90291
(310) 581-1536

Read my blogs at the Linux Beach 


On Mon, Sep 5, 2016 at 7:49 AM, Dennis Brasky  wrote:

> How about the N word, homophobic words, anti-Muslim words? Are those OK in
> the attempt to "connect" to the (backward sections) of the working class
> and minority communities?? Sadly, his defending the most common
> misogynistic term has caused me to lose respect for Clay.
>
> On Mon, Sep 5, 2016 at 10:39 AM, Clay Claiborne via Marxism <
> marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:
>
>>
>> And again, if you make use of the word bitch a litmus test your will limit
>> your connects, especially in working class and minority communities.
>>
>>
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Re: [Marxism] FYI - I suspect a lot of other Syrians feel the same way

[Dennis Brasky via Marxism]

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How about the N word, homophobic words, anti-Muslim words? Are those OK in
the attempt to "connect" to the (backward sections) of the working class
and minority communities?? Sadly, his defending the most common
misogynistic term has caused me to lose respect for Clay.

On Mon, Sep 5, 2016 at 10:39 AM, Clay Claiborne via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

>
> And again, if you make use of the word bitch a litmus test your will limit
> your connects, especially in working class and minority communities.
>
>
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Re: [Marxism] FYI - I suspect a lot of other Syrians feel the same way

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 9/5/16 10:39 AM, Clay Claiborne wrote:

And again, if you make use of the word bitch a litmus test your will
limit your connects, especially in working class and minority communities.


I have different expectations from Robin Yassin-Kassab than I do from a 
construction worker. I would also unsub anybody who used a word like 
bitch on Marxmail, especially in light of complaints aired in the past 
about the absence of female contributors to the discussion.


In any case, this is a useful reminder of how Russian Marxists dealt 
with the use of demeaning language after 1917:


Abusive language and swearing are a legacy of slavery, humiliation, and 
disrespect for human dignity—one’s own and that of other people. This is 
particularly the case with swearing in Russia. I should like to hear 
from our philologists, our linguists and experts in folklore, whether 
they know of such loose, sticky, and low terms of abuse in any other 
language than Russian. As far as I know, there is nothing, or nearly 
nothing, of the kind outside Russia. Russian swearing in “the lower 
depths” was the result of despair, embitterment and, above all, slavery 
without hope, without escape. The swearing of the upper classes, on the 
other hand, the swearing that came out of the throats of the gentry, the 
authorities, was the outcome of class rule, slaveowner’s pride, 
unshakable power. Proverbs are supposed to contain the wisdom of the 
masses—Russian proverbs show besides the ignorant and the superstitious 
mind of the masses and their slavishness. “Abuse does not stick to the 
collar,” says an old Russian proverb, not only accepting slavery as a 
fact, but submitting to the humiliation of it. Two streams of Russian 
abuse—that of the masters, the officials, the police, replete and fatty, 
and the other, the hungry, desperate, tormented swearing of the 
masses—have colored the whole of Russian life with despicable patterns 
of abusive terms. Such was the legacy the revolution received among 
others from the past.


full: https://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/women/life/23_05_16.htm
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Re: [Marxism] FYI - I suspect a lot of other Syrians feel the same way

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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saying:

> it is widely used in many sections of the working class not well schooled
> in university Left etiquette that otherwise may be politically quite
> advanced.
>
Is not a defense of calling someone a bitch [are you opposed to only
calling women bitches? How about men?]

This is a word you dragged into this conversation specifically for the
purpose of condemning both Robin and me. It was not in my post about him.
So its not surprising that you have done this.

I have learned to look at how a man treats women. I've never known Robin to
disrespect women. I saw him with Leila in LA. On the other hand, I know
many sophisticated enough never to use the word bitch but treats other
women terribly, as is the case with Stein as I described above.

And again, if you make use of the word bitch a litmus test your will limit
your connects, especially in working class and minority communities.



Clay Claiborne, Director
Vietnam: American Holocaust 
Linux Beach Productions
Venice, CA 90291
(310) 581-1536

Read my blogs at the Linux Beach 


On Mon, Sep 5, 2016 at 4:29 AM, Louis Proyect  wrote:

> On 9/5/16 12:29 AM, Clay Claiborne wrote:
>
>> Use of this word as a term demeaning to women may be enough to get you
>> kicked out of the SWP but NEWSFLASH Louis, it is widely used in many
>> sections of the working class not well schooled in university Left
>> etiquette that otherwise may be politically quite advanced. I have been
>> working to win Robin to a Marxist view of the revolutionary struggle he
>> has been playing a leading role in so I don't plan unfriending him
>> anytime soon.
>>
>
> Clay, you are a hypocrite. A dozen posts about how Marxmail is reeking of
> white supremacy and now you defend calling women bitches.
>
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Re: [Marxism] FYI - I suspect a lot of other Syrians feel the same way

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 9/5/16 12:29 AM, Clay Claiborne wrote:

Use of this word as a term demeaning to women may be enough to get you
kicked out of the SWP but NEWSFLASH Louis, it is widely used in many
sections of the working class not well schooled in university Left
etiquette that otherwise may be politically quite advanced. I have been
working to win Robin to a Marxist view of the revolutionary struggle he
has been playing a leading role in so I don't plan unfriending him
anytime soon.


Clay, you are a hypocrite. A dozen posts about how Marxmail is reeking 
of white supremacy and now you defend calling women bitches.

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Re: [Marxism] FYI - I suspect a lot of other Syrians feel the same way

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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Note from my neighbor "Please excuse me for being such a bitch yesterday..."

bitch

 (bĭch)
n.
1. A female canine animal, especially a dog.
2. Offensive A woman considered to be mean, overbearing, or contemptible.
3. Vulgar Slang
a. A prostitute considered in relation to a pimp.
b. A person in a subservient sexual role, especially an incarcerated male
who provides sex to another male under threat of violence or in exchange
for protection.
c. A person who is submissive to another, usually by performing menial or
unpleasant tasks.
d. A man considered to be weak or contemptible.
4. Slang A complaint.
5. Slang Something very unpleasant or difficult: Fixing the faucet turned
out to be a bitch.

Use of this word as a term demeaning to women may be enough to get you
kicked out of the SWP but NEWSFLASH Louis, it is widely used in many
sections of the working class not well schooled in university Left
etiquette that otherwise may be politically quite advanced. I have been
working to win Robin to a Marxist view of the revolutionary struggle he has
been playing a leading role in so I don't plan unfriending him anytime soon.
http://claysbeach.blogspot.com/2015/09/why-i-remain-marxist.html
 And frankly, if you unfriend every working class or non-white person who
uses what you consider to be offensive language you will greatly limit the
scope of your influence.

Consider, that while in your world its quite unacceptable to call a woman a
bitch, it is entirely acceptable to support a presidential candidate that
backs a regime that uses rape as a weapon of war and live rats stuffed in
women's vaginas as a method torture and has the self-servicing arrogance
and meanness of spirit to greet the world on Mother's Day with this tweet
about another woman: "I agree w/ Hillary, it's time to elect a woman for
President. But I want that President to reflect the values of being a
mother. #MothersDay." [
https://twitter.com/DrJillStein/status/729351428720988161 - now deleted.]

At least you didn't unfriend Robin for the same reason you left the
critical-syria list, which had nothing to do with bad language. I think it
was because you couldn't tolerate the criticism of Stein on that list.

So Robin Yassin-Kassab called Jill Stein a bitch on your fb wall. What do
you want me to do? Write an angry letter to Leila asking how she can work
with a man like that? Burn my copy of Burning Country? That's sounds funny
to say. Want to organize a Burning Country book burning party to protest
Robin's calling Stein a bitch?

But what has that got to do with me? He didn't call Stein a bitch in the
tweet I forwarded to the list, did he? Is it that now anything from Robin
is embargoed because he call Stein a bitch twice? Maybe you should look
upon this tweet as a positive response to your critique. After all, he
didn't call her a bitch this time. True he still has an intense dislike for
her but you have to expect that from a Syria revolutionary.

As far as my forwarding it to the list FOR YOUR INFORMATION, I should have
done that even if he called her a bitch. You don't want to hear what people
are saying about Jill Stein if its offensive? Okay, but maybe other people
do. Unvarnished information is critical to revolutionary development.

Regards,

Clay


Clay Claiborne, Director
Vietnam: American Holocaust 
Linux Beach Productions
Venice, CA 90291
(310) 581-1536

Read my blogs at the Linux Beach 


On Sun, Sep 4, 2016 at 2:24 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

> Clay, I had to defriend Robin Yassin-Kassab because after he called Stein
> a "bitch" on my FB timeline, I told him that I can't accept women being
> referred to that way. He then doubled down and called her a bitch again. I
> don't know what part of the left you were involved in the 60s but I was
> around women in the SWP who would have filed charges against any male
> comrade using words like that and they would likely have been expelled. Now
> you forward Robin's twitter about Stein being a "piece of shit". I happen
> to have a lot of respect for both you and Robin but it is wrong for him to
> use such language and wrong for you to forward it. You talk a lot about
> racism on the Marxism list, don't you? Don't forget that sexism is also a
> way of dividing the working class.
>
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Re: [Marxism] FYI - I suspect a lot of other Syrians feel the same way

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 9/4/16 12:37 PM, Clay Claiborne via Marxism wrote:


Clearly the Green Party has its work cut out for itself in building
international solidarity with the Syrian Revolutionary.

I think the same can be said about building solidarity with non-white
revolutionaries generally.

https://twitter.com/Qunfuz1/status/772413151883227136


Clay, I had to defriend Robin Yassin-Kassab because after he called 
Stein a "bitch" on my FB timeline, I told him that I can't accept women 
being referred to that way. He then doubled down and called her a bitch 
again. I don't know what part of the left you were involved in the 60s 
but I was around women in the SWP who would have filed charges against 
any male comrade using words like that and they would likely have been 
expelled. Now you forward Robin's twitter about Stein being a "piece of 
shit". I happen to have a lot of respect for both you and Robin but it 
is wrong for him to use such language and wrong for you to forward it. 
You talk a lot about racism on the Marxism list, don't you? Don't forget 
that sexism is also a way of dividing the working class.

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