Re: [Marxism] Polls that challenge the mantra that most Greeks want to stay in the Eurozone
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 7/13/15 11:28 AM, Michael Karadjis via Marxism wrote: Paneuropean Gallup International poll, December 2014. 52% in Greece favor return to national currency. opinion.co.uk/per…/resources/global-we-tables-weight1-v6.pdf In small print at the bottom of the 52 percent findings: http://www.orb-international.com/perch/resources/europeanattitudesresults.pdf Disclaimer: Gallup International Association or its members are not related to Gallup Inc., headquartered in Washington D.C which is no longer a member of Gallup International Association. Gallup International Association does not accept responsibility for opinion polling other than its own. We require that our surveys be credited fully as Gallup International (not Gallup or Gallup Poll). For further details see website: www.Gallup-international.com Plus this: http://openeurope.org.uk/blog/revisting-grexit-part-2/ First off, it still seems that Greeks want to stay in the euro. While a poll at the end of 2014 by Gallup International found that 52% of Greeks would prefer to have the Drachma over the euro, this seems to be something of a rogue poll. All other polls have consistently shown Greek support for the euro. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Polls that challenge the mantra that most Greeks want to stay in the Eurozone
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Did anyone read my post last night with the subject line Overwhelming Greek opposition to Grexit? As Dimitri Lascaris pointed out on TRNN on Sunday, the Greek polls re: Grexit are deeply suspect. A series of post-deal interviews with people on the street by one of the wire services revealed a chorus of why not just exit? (not a poll, of course, but not something to dismiss either). 14 июля 2015 г., в 7:13, Louis Proyect via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu написал(а): Plus this: http://openeurope.org.uk/blog/revisting-grexit-part-2/ First off, it still seems that Greeks want to stay in the euro. While a poll at the end of 2014 by Gallup International found that 52% of Greeks would prefer to have the Drachma over the euro, this seems to be something of a rogue poll. All other polls have consistently shown Greek support for the euro. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/shalva.eliava%40outlook.com _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Polls that challenge the mantra that most Greeks want to stay in the Eurozone
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On Jul 14, 2015, at 7:12 AM, Louis Proyect via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote: First off, it still seems that Greeks want to stay in the euro. While a poll at the end of 2014 by Gallup International found that 52% of Greeks would prefer to have the Drachma over the euro, this seems to be something of a rogue poll. All other polls have consistently shown Greek support for the euro. There has been a lot of informed comment in academic circles and in the financial as well as left-wing media that Greece would be better off leaving the eurozone than continuing to be subjected to the grinding austerity and deep depression, with little hope of economic recovery, which characterizes its current situation. The argument is that Greece would recover if it were free to devalue its own currency - that it could less painlessly recover its competitiveness though an “external” devaluation of the drachma as opposed to a savage “internal” devaluation based on driving down the cost of labour and social benefits. Even the initial shock of the transition to a new currency could be eased if Greece were able to negotiate an orderly exit with the eurozone powers who, together with the US, have a strategic interest in ensuring a stable Greece on their borders. Whatever you may think of that argument, this debate has never really filtered down to the Greek masses who support Syriza’s social program, largely because the pro-euro party leadership has rejected this option from the beginning. This is the foremost reason why most public opinion polls skew heavily in favour of continued eurozone membership. However much the two issues are linked, however, the referendum wasn’t about continued eurozone membership but about the austerity package. And the deeper issue, as always, is: Who decides these life-or-death issues: the people or the party, the leaders or the working class? We wouldn’t be having this discussion if the Greeks had voted by 61% to accept the austerity package that was proposed to them in the referendum. The Tsipras leadership would have had the result it was hoping for, despite its cosmetic campaign in favour of a No, and that would be that. It could return to Brussels to sign the surrender terms with the mandate of the Greek people securely in its pocket. We might still lament the outcome, but case closed. It is for the Greeks themselves to decide, not us, not the leaders they elected. We’re having this discussion precisely because the Tsipras leadership chose to ignore the overwhelming rejection of the austerity package. It acted as if as the popular democracy did not exist, and the popular classes had not decisively pronounced on the issue. It promptly signalled its willingness to the eurozone powers that, despite the referendum result, it was prepared to continue negotiating the terms of surrender. And it did so in concert with the widely despised opposition parties . How can we condone this about-face by the leadership, any more than we can condone a union leadership arbitrarily and unexpectedly capitulating to the employer the day after its members roundly reject an agreement assaulting their living standards and working conditions? Even if it were a well-intentioned union leadership which considered it was acting in the best interests of its poor benighted members who did not really understand the implications of what they were voting for? As an old comrade once remarked to me, “my first loyalty is to the working class, then to the party or trade union which purports to act in its name.” _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Polls that challenge the mantra that most Greeks want to stay in the Eurozone
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * bravo On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 9:18 AM, Marv Gandall via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote: POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On Jul 14, 2015, at 7:12 AM, Louis Proyect via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote: First off, it still seems that Greeks want to stay in the euro. While a poll at the end of 2014 by Gallup International found that 52% of Greeks would prefer to have the Drachma over the euro, this seems to be something of a rogue poll. All other polls have consistently shown Greek support for the euro. There has been a lot of informed comment in academic circles and in the financial as well as left-wing media that Greece would be better off leaving the eurozone than continuing to be subjected to the grinding austerity and deep depression, with little hope of economic recovery, which characterizes its current situation. The argument is that Greece would recover if it were free to devalue its own currency - that it could less painlessly recover its competitiveness though an “external” devaluation of the drachma as opposed to a savage “internal” devaluation based on driving down the cost of labour and social benefits. Even the initial shock of the transition to a new currency could be eased if Greece were able to negotiate an orderly exit with the eurozone powers who, together with the US, have a strategic interest in ensuring a stable Greece on their borders. Whatever you may think of that argument, this debate has never really filtered down to the Greek masses who support Syriza’s social program, largely because the pro-euro party leadership has rejected this option from the beginning. This is the foremost reason why most public opinion polls skew heavily in favour of continued eurozone membership. However much the two issues are linked, however, the referendum wasn’t about continued eurozone membership but about the austerity package. And the deeper issue, as always, is: Who decides these life-or-death issues: the people or the party, the leaders or the working class? We wouldn’t be having this discussion if the Greeks had voted by 61% to accept the austerity package that was proposed to them in the referendum. The Tsipras leadership would have had the result it was hoping for, despite its cosmetic campaign in favour of a No, and that would be that. It could return to Brussels to sign the surrender terms with the mandate of the Greek people securely in its pocket. We might still lament the outcome, but case closed. It is for the Greeks themselves to decide, not us, not the leaders they elected. We’re having this discussion precisely because the Tsipras leadership chose to ignore the overwhelming rejection of the austerity package. It acted as if as the popular democracy did not exist, and the popular classes had not decisively pronounced on the issue. It promptly signalled its willingness to the eurozone powers that, despite the referendum result, it was prepared to continue negotiating the terms of surrender. And it did so in concert with the widely despised opposition parties . How can we condone this about-face by the leadership, any more than we can condone a union leadership arbitrarily and unexpectedly capitulating to the employer the day after its members roundly reject an agreement assaulting their living standards and working conditions? Even if it were a well-intentioned union leadership which considered it was acting in the best interests of its poor benighted members who did not really understand the implications of what they were voting for? As an old comrade once remarked to me, “my first loyalty is to the working class, then to the party or trade union which purports to act in its name.” _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/acpollack2%40gmail.com _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Polls that challenge the mantra that most Greeks want to stay in the Eurozone
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 7/14/15 9:18 AM, Marv Gandall wrote: Whatever you may think of that argument, this debate has never really filtered down to the Greek masses who support Syriza’s social program, largely because the pro-euro party leadership has rejected this option from the beginning. This is the foremost reason why most public opinion polls skew heavily in favour of continued eurozone membership. But you can be sure that things will turn around as a result of your and Jim Creegan's courageous and principled intervention here. In fact I can easily picture the dock workers in Athens right now huddled around a laptop beaming with joy as they look at the Marxmail archives saying, Now we have the heavy artillery on our side. German bankers, watch the fuck out. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Polls that challenge the mantra that most Greeks want to stay in the Eurozone
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * The fact of the matter is that Greek workers ARE watching to see who is supporting them. I've seen the same thing in solidarity work around the MENA region and elsewhere: activists in the country concerned always report on encouraging conversations they have with workers after showing them even just selfies from around the world supporting their cause. There are now 2 or 3 dozen cities around the world holding support rallies tomorrow for the Greek general strike and for a continued Oxi, and the Panitches are hurting that effort. On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 9:23 AM, Louis Proyect via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote: POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 7/14/15 9:18 AM, Marv Gandall wrote: Whatever you may think of that argument, this debate has never really filtered down to the Greek masses who support Syriza’s social program, largely because the pro-euro party leadership has rejected this option from the beginning. This is the foremost reason why most public opinion polls skew heavily in favour of continued eurozone membership. But you can be sure that things will turn around as a result of your and Jim Creegan's courageous and principled intervention here. In fact I can easily picture the dock workers in Athens right now huddled around a laptop beaming with joy as they look at the Marxmail archives saying, Now we have the heavy artillery on our side. German bankers, watch the fuck out. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/acpollack2%40gmail.com _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Polls that challenge the mantra that most Greeks want to stay in the Eurozone
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * The Troika's dictate to Greece is fundamentally an assault on its national sovereignty. The Greeks are a proud people. Their No on July 5 was (as Tsipras himself said in the final pro-No rally) a vote for democracy and sovereignty. How will the Greeks react now to this decisive proof not only of the incompatibility of anti-austerity with eurozone membership, but of the incompatibility of eurozone membership with national sovereignty? This has been a defeat for Greece, not just for Syriza. But it is not the end of the war. The votes in the Parliament tomorrow are important. But let's see what kind of reaction these latest developments spark in the working class and the wider population before we draw definitive conclusions as to the current state of Greek public opinion. A lot of things may change in a very short period. The Greek experience is a huge learning experience for us all, including the Greeks themselves. Meanwhile, internationally we need to manifest and build solidarity with the Greeks, as never before, while they try to cope with the new conditions and work out alternative courses of action. Richard -Original Message- From: Marxism [mailto:marxism-boun...@lists.csbs.utah.edu] On Behalf Of Andrew Pollack via Marxism Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2015 9:54 AM To: rfidle...@sympatico.ca Cc: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition Subject: Re: [Marxism] Polls that challenge the mantra that most Greeks want to stay in the Eurozone POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Louis YOU DIDN'T READ WHAT I SAID. I wasn't talking about marxmail, I was talking about Greek workers seeing photos of SOLIDARITY DEMONSTRATIONS around the world. Marxmail and Facebook discussions matter because they encourage (or discourage in Panitch's case) such REAL WORLD MOBILIZATION WHICH GREEK WORKERS ARE FOLLOWING. On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 9:48 AM, Louis Proyect l...@panix.com wrote: On 7/14/15 9:39 AM, Andrew Pollack wrote: The fact of the matter is that Greek workers ARE watching to see who is supporting them. Oh please. Writing anguished denunciations of Alexis Tsipras on Marxmail is not supporting Greek workers. I would describe it more as political onanism. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/rfidler_8%40sympatico.ca _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Polls that challenge the mantra that most Greeks want to stay in the Eurozone
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Louis YOU DIDN'T READ WHAT I SAID. I wasn't talking about marxmail, I was talking about Greek workers seeing photos of SOLIDARITY DEMONSTRATIONS around the world. Marxmail and Facebook discussions matter because they encourage (or discourage in Panitch's case) such REAL WORLD MOBILIZATION WHICH GREEK WORKERS ARE FOLLOWING. On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 9:48 AM, Louis Proyect l...@panix.com wrote: On 7/14/15 9:39 AM, Andrew Pollack wrote: The fact of the matter is that Greek workers ARE watching to see who is supporting them. Oh please. Writing anguished denunciations of Alexis Tsipras on Marxmail is not supporting Greek workers. I would describe it more as political onanism. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Polls that challenge the mantra that most Greeks want to stay in the Eurozone
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 7/14/15 9:39 AM, Andrew Pollack wrote: The fact of the matter is that Greek workers ARE watching to see who is supporting them. Oh please. Writing anguished denunciations of Alexis Tsipras on Marxmail is not supporting Greek workers. I would describe it more as political onanism. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Polls that challenge the mantra that most Greeks want to stay in the Eurozone
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Original Message- From: Louis Proyect On 7/13/15 11:28 AM, Michael Karadjis via Marxism wrote: Paneuropean Gallup International poll, December 2014. 52% in Greece favor return to national currency. opinion.co.uk/per…/resources/global-we-tables-weight1-v6.pdf In small print at the bottom of the 52 percent findings: Disclaimer: Gallup International Association or its members are not related to Gallup Inc., headquartered in Washington D.C which is no longer a member of Gallup International Association. MK: Yes, but that doesn't prove that the Paneuropean Gallup International poll is wrong. Besides, my post noted two other, more recent polls: Bridging Europe poll, March 2015. 53% of Greeks in favor of grexit: https://twitter.com/bridgingeurope/status/578889140684648448 Bridging Europe poll, June 2015, not long before the referendum was called. 63% not afraid of grexit. Compares very well with the 61.3% no vote in the referendum which followed. https://twitter.com/BridgingEurope/status/612669846568968192 Now of course I have no way of knowing whether these polls, or the polls that show the opposite (that most Greeks want to stay in Eurozone) are more correct. However, I'm inclined to believe these polls showing greater Greek support for grexit. Why? Simply, the supposed *enormous, total* contradiction between majority Greek opposition to EU-imposed killer-austerity and huge majority Greek determination to stay in the Eurozone seems just not realistic. A certain amount of contradiction, of confusion, yes, that is possible, and likely; but the total contradiction scenario makes it look as if the bulk of Greek people are far too naiive, far more than they are. Is it really possible that after all this time, after all this evidence of the blood-sucking nature of the EU, that a significant percentage of Greeks have not yet understood the contradiction between Eurozone membership and no austerity? We talk about it every day as if it is just so obvious, and assume that hardly anyone is Greece has realised? Entirely unrealistic. Is it really possible that 61% of Greeks voted to reject the EU's diktat and almost none of them figured out that their vote also meant potentially a grexit? Not a majority of them, not a significant majority of them, but almost none? No, Greeks as a whole are somewhat more politically sophisticated than that. *Separate* to the issue of whether or not there was no alternative at this moment (due to Syriza leadership's decision to not plan a Plan B), I think it likely that the polls showing considerably greater Greek opposition to the Eurozone are far more realistic. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Polls that challenge the mantra that most Greeks want to stay in the Eurozone
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 7/14/15 9:52 AM, Michael Karadjis wrote: Now of course I have no way of knowing whether these polls, or the polls that show the opposite (that most Greeks want to stay in Eurozone) are more correct. However, I'm inclined to believe these polls showing greater Greek support for grexit. This will be put to the test soon enough. By all indications, Tsipras and those in the Syriza leadership who are aligned with him have thrown in their lot with the parliamentary bloc made up of the New Democracy, PASOK and To Potami. If and when the Left Platform breaks with this grouping, it will be up to them and whoever they unite with to push for a Grexit. I am particularly interested to see how Antarsya fares since this group is obviously the one that Marvin Gandall and James Creegan would want to belong to if they were in Greece. Btw, Antarsya means The Anticapitalist Left Cooperation for the Overthrow. The acronym is practically the same as the Greek word for mutiny (antarsia) according to Wikipedia. This is a group that has been blessed by Alex Callinicos so it will be put to the test in the months to come. I am fairly confident that they will never be thrust into a position of betraying the Greek people. In fact, I don't think that there has ever been such a group in the past 100 years that has been put in the position where they could sell out anybody or anything. Needless to say, this kind of freedom of sin comes at a certain cost not that this would make any difference to Alex Callinicos. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Polls that challenge the mantra that most Greeks want to stay in the Eurozone
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 14/07/2015 04:39 μμ, Andrew Pollack via Marxism wrote: * The fact of the matter is that Greek workers ARE watching to see who is supporting them. I've seen the same thing in solidarity work around the MENA region and elsewhere: activists in the country concerned always report on encouraging conversations they have with workers after showing them even just selfies from around the world supporting their cause. There are now 2 or 3 dozen cities around the world holding support rallies tomorrow for the Greek general strike and for a continued Oxi, and the Panitches are hurting that effort. That's right! It's time for action. An #occupygermanembassy would be just fine JA _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Polls that challenge the mantra that most Greeks want to stay in the Eurozone
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On Jul 14, 2015, at 11:00 AM, Louis Proyect via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote: This will be put to the test soon enough. By all indications, Tsipras and those in the Syriza leadership who are aligned with him have thrown in their lot with the parliamentary bloc made up of the New Democracy, PASOK and To Potami. If and when the Left Platform breaks with this grouping, it will be up to them and whoever they unite with to push for a Grexit. I am particularly interested to see how Antarsya fares since this group is obviously the one that Marvin Gandall and James Creegan would want to belong to if they were in Greece. I can’t speak for Jim, but I would have to spend time on the ground in Greece to determine which of the various left groups I would support. I do know I could never support a party or faction whose parliamentary representatives vote for a rotten deal which will force working and lower middle class Greeks to further bend the knee and accept a further deterioration of their miserable conditions, particularly against their democratic will as expressed in the referendum. I assume if you were in the Greek Parliament you would be jumping to your feet to cast a vote for this latest, harshest, and most demeaning austerity package. Btw, Antarsya means “The Anticapitalist Left Cooperation for the Overthrow”… I am fairly confident that they will never be thrust into a position of betraying the Greek people. In fact, I don’t think that there has ever been such a group in the past 100 years that has been put in the position where they could sell out anybody or anything. Could you not say the same about every other Marxist and anarchist group in Europe or North America in the period we have been living through? _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
