Re: [MBZ] Global Warming In MD, Yo

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

That's what I like about Freakonomics, they spend a bunch of time trying to 
disprove their hypothesis which is as it should be...

Curt

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Sat, Dec 17, 2016 at 7:13 PM, Curley McLain via 
Mercedes wrote:   Not when manipulated by a virtuoso.

Almost nothing that is presented with a statistical analysis is done 
correctly.  Most statistics "prove" nothing.  In fact, by definition, 
statistics can't be used to PROVE anything.

> Jon Agne via Mercedes 
> December 17, 2016 at 6:03 PM
> Hence my earlier email. It really is easy to spot when they are 
> manipulated to show a certain result.
>

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Re: [MBZ] Global Warming In MD, Yo

[Jon Agne via Mercedes]

Yep.

> On Dec 17, 2016, at 7:35 PM, Greg Fiorentino via Mercedes 
> <mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> 
> I also studied statistics as part of my psych degree. I actually was paid as 
> a statistician by a couple of market research companies. More importantly, I 
> studied philosophy of science, so learned all about experimental design, the 
> null hypothesis, and falsification. Those are things about which many 
> "scientists" are unaware.
> 
> Greg
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Jon Agne 
> via Mercedes
> Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2016 2:02 PM
> To: Mercedes Discussion List
> Cc: Jon Agne
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] Global Warming In MD, Yo
> 
> I am sure that it’s a good book.  I studied Statistics and Economics at 
> Northwestern.  I fully understand them.
> 
> Jon
> 
> 
>> On Dec 17, 2016, at 3:17 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes 
>> <mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Jon, I know you are a very intelligent guy.   Read this book.  It is a 
>> classic and was out of print for decades, but within in lies universal 
>> truth, presented in a humorous way.  Now it is back in print again.
>> https://www.amazon.com/How-Lie-Statistics-Darrell-Huff/dp/0393310728You 
>> can read the first few pages online for free.
>> 
>> It is under $10.  Or you local welfare bookstore probably has a copy you can 
>> read for free. (pubic library)
>> 
>> I was fortunate enough to get a copy from one of my several Statistics profs 
>> when he retired.  He tried to teach Ed statistics to wannabe school sups.  
>> The majority of them were dumber that a rock.
>> 
>> It is the ONLY book from college or grad school I continue to refer to!  In 
>> fact, it was not even a required book, but Dr Neteusil in the Ed Stat class 
>> kept referring to it because ed statistics (and peer reviewed pubs) are rife 
>> with statistical errors, bias and misapplication.
>> 
>>> Jon Agne via Mercedes <mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>
>>> December 17, 2016 at 1:19 PM
>>> https://www.climate-lab-book.ac.uk/2016/spiralling-global-temperatures/ 
>>> <https://www.climate-lab-book.ac.uk/2016/spiralling-global-temperatures/>
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _
>> 
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Re: [MBZ] Global Warming In MD, Yo

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

> On December 17, 2016
> Yeah. My bad. I should've made the subject Fire and Ice, or something else.
> 

You like Pat Benatar too?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsKCU5ll3D0

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Re: [MBZ] Global Warming In MD, Yo

[Greg Fiorentino via Mercedes]

I also studied statistics as part of my psych degree. I actually was paid as a 
statistician by a couple of market research companies. More importantly, I 
studied philosophy of science, so learned all about experimental design, the 
null hypothesis, and falsification. Those are things about which many 
"scientists" are unaware.

Greg

-Original Message-
From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Jon Agne via 
Mercedes
Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2016 2:02 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Cc: Jon Agne
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Global Warming In MD, Yo

I am sure that it’s a good book.  I studied Statistics and Economics at 
Northwestern.  I fully understand them.

Jon


> On Dec 17, 2016, at 3:17 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes 
> <mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> 
> Jon, I know you are a very intelligent guy.   Read this book.  It is a 
> classic and was out of print for decades, but within in lies universal truth, 
> presented in a humorous way.  Now it is back in print again.
> https://www.amazon.com/How-Lie-Statistics-Darrell-Huff/dp/0393310728You 
> can read the first few pages online for free.
> 
> It is under $10.  Or you local welfare bookstore probably has a copy you can 
> read for free. (pubic library)
> 
> I was fortunate enough to get a copy from one of my several Statistics profs 
> when he retired.  He tried to teach Ed statistics to wannabe school sups.  
> The majority of them were dumber that a rock.
> 
> It is the ONLY book from college or grad school I continue to refer to!  In 
> fact, it was not even a required book, but Dr Neteusil in the Ed Stat class 
> kept referring to it because ed statistics (and peer reviewed pubs) are rife 
> with statistical errors, bias and misapplication.
> 
>> Jon Agne via Mercedes <mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>
>> December 17, 2016 at 1:19 PM
>> https://www.climate-lab-book.ac.uk/2016/spiralling-global-temperatures/ 
>> <https://www.climate-lab-book.ac.uk/2016/spiralling-global-temperatures/>
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _
> 
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Re: [MBZ] Global Warming In MD, Yo

[Jon Agne via Mercedes]

Correct.  Statistics can only predict a “probable” outcome.  Only FACTS can 
prove something.


> On Dec 17, 2016, at 7:13 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> Not when manipulated by a virtuoso.
> 
> Almost nothing that is presented with a statistical analysis is done 
> correctly.  Most statistics "prove" nothing.  In fact, by definition, 
> statistics can't be used to PROVE anything.
> 
>> Jon Agne via Mercedes 
>> December 17, 2016 at 6:03 PM
>> Hence my earlier email. It really is easy to spot when they are manipulated 
>> to show a certain result.
>> 
> 
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Re: [MBZ] Global Warming In MD, Yo

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

Not when manipulated by a virtuoso.

Almost nothing that is presented with a statistical analysis is done 
correctly.  Most statistics "prove" nothing.  In fact, by definition, 
statistics can't be used to PROVE anything.



Jon Agne via Mercedes 
December 17, 2016 at 6:03 PM
Hence my earlier email. It really is easy to spot when they are 
manipulated to show a certain result.




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Re: [MBZ] Global Warming In MD, Yo

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

HE had READ Huff's little book!


Dimitri via Mercedes 
December 17, 2016 at 5:59 PM
Statistics can be manipulated to show anything. Prior to medical 
school, I did research at the Harvard School of Public Health under 
the tutelage of one of the most renowned epidemiologists in the world. 
Statistics play a crucial role in the field of epidemiology. He showed 
me how one can manipulate data to show anything. It was quite 
disconcerting.


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Re: [MBZ] Global Warming In MD, Yo

[Jon Agne via Mercedes]

Hence my earlier email.  It really is easy to spot when they are manipulated to 
show a certain result.


> On Dec 17, 2016, at 6:59 PM, Dimitri via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> Statistics can be manipulated to show anything. Prior to medical school, I 
> did research at the Harvard School of Public Health under the tutelage of one 
> of the most renowned epidemiologists in the world. Statistics play a crucial 
> role in the field of epidemiology. He showed me how one can manipulate data 
> to show anything. It was quite disconcerting.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Dec 17, 2016, at 6:31 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> It aint what was in your stat text.  It is hilarious, but dead serious.   It 
>> is one book I will never get rid of.
>> 
>>> Jon Agne via Mercedes 
>>> December 17, 2016 at 4:01 PM
>>> I am sure that it’s a good book. I studied Statistics and Economics at 
>>> Northwestern. I fully understand them.
>>> 
>>> Jon
>>> Accident in Maryland, yo!
>>> 
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lba_yQHzZCo=em
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Rick
>>> Sent from an outdated phone
>> 
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Re: [MBZ] Global Warming In MD, Yo

[Dimitri via Mercedes]

Statistics can be manipulated to show anything. Prior to medical school, I did 
research at the Harvard School of Public Health under the tutelage of one of 
the most renowned epidemiologists in the world. Statistics play a crucial role 
in the field of epidemiology. He showed me how one can manipulate data to show 
anything. It was quite disconcerting.



Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 17, 2016, at 6:31 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> It aint what was in your stat text.  It is hilarious, but dead serious.   It 
> is one book I will never get rid of.
> 
>> Jon Agne via Mercedes 
>> December 17, 2016 at 4:01 PM
>> I am sure that it’s a good book. I studied Statistics and Economics at 
>> Northwestern. I fully understand them.
>> 
>> Jon
>> Accident in Maryland, yo!
>> 
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lba_yQHzZCo=em
>> 
>> 
>> Rick
>> Sent from an outdated phone
> 
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Re: [MBZ] Global Warming In MD, Yo

[Jon Agne via Mercedes]

And refreezing.  it’s the rate of melt and refreeze that we need to be 
concerned with.



> On Dec 17, 2016, at 6:51 PM, Dimitri via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> The ice caps have been melting since the last ice age.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Dec 17, 2016, at 4:04 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> The heat is melting the ice caps y'all.
>> 
>> On Dec 17, 2016 3:17 PM, "Curley McLain via Mercedes" 
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> Jon, I know you are a very intelligent guy.   Read this book.  It is a
>>> classic and was out of print for decades, but within in lies universal
>>> truth, presented in a humorous way.  Now it is back in print again.
>>> https://www.amazon.com/How-Lie-Statistics-Darrell-Huff/dp/0393310728
>>> You can read the first few pages online for free.
>>> 
>>> It is under $10.  Or you local welfare bookstore probably has a copy you
>>> can read for free. (pubic library)
>>> 
>>> I was fortunate enough to get a copy from one of my several Statistics
>>> profs when he retired.  He tried to teach Ed statistics to wannabe school
>>> sups.  The majority of them were dumber that a rock.
>>> 
>>> It is the ONLY book from college or grad school I continue to refer to!
>>> In fact, it was not even a required book, but Dr Neteusil in the Ed Stat
>>> class kept referring to it because ed statistics (and peer reviewed pubs)
>>> are rife with statistical errors, bias and misapplication.
>>> 
>>> Jon Agne via Mercedes 
 December 17, 2016 at 1:19 PM
 https://www.climate-lab-book.ac.uk/2016/spiralling-global-temperatures/ <
 https://www.climate-lab-book.ac.uk/2016/spiralling-global-temperatures/>
 
 
 
 _
>>> 
>>> ___
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>>> 
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>>> 
>>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
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Re: [MBZ] Global Warming In MD, Yo

[Dimitri via Mercedes]

The ice caps have been melting since the last ice age.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 17, 2016, at 4:04 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> The heat is melting the ice caps y'all.
> 
> On Dec 17, 2016 3:17 PM, "Curley McLain via Mercedes" 
> wrote:
> 
>> Jon, I know you are a very intelligent guy.   Read this book.  It is a
>> classic and was out of print for decades, but within in lies universal
>> truth, presented in a humorous way.  Now it is back in print again.
>> https://www.amazon.com/How-Lie-Statistics-Darrell-Huff/dp/0393310728
>> You can read the first few pages online for free.
>> 
>> It is under $10.  Or you local welfare bookstore probably has a copy you
>> can read for free. (pubic library)
>> 
>> I was fortunate enough to get a copy from one of my several Statistics
>> profs when he retired.  He tried to teach Ed statistics to wannabe school
>> sups.  The majority of them were dumber that a rock.
>> 
>> It is the ONLY book from college or grad school I continue to refer to!
>> In fact, it was not even a required book, but Dr Neteusil in the Ed Stat
>> class kept referring to it because ed statistics (and peer reviewed pubs)
>> are rife with statistical errors, bias and misapplication.
>> 
>> Jon Agne via Mercedes 
>>> December 17, 2016 at 1:19 PM
>>> https://www.climate-lab-book.ac.uk/2016/spiralling-global-temperatures/ <
>>> https://www.climate-lab-book.ac.uk/2016/spiralling-global-temperatures/>
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _
>> 
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Re: [MBZ] Global Warming In MD, Yo

[Jon Agne via Mercedes]

I will look it up.  I’m always up for a good read, and I am just about finished 
with this year’s pile of books.


> On Dec 17, 2016, at 6:31 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> It aint what was in your stat text.  It is hilarious, but dead serious.   It 
> is one book I will never get rid of.
> 
>> Jon Agne via Mercedes 
>> December 17, 2016 at 4:01 PM
>> I am sure that it’s a good book. I studied Statistics and Economics at 
>> Northwestern. I fully understand them.
>> 
>> Jon
>> Accident in Maryland, yo!
>> 
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lba_yQHzZCo=em
>> 
>> 
>> Rick
>> Sent from an outdated phone
> 
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Re: [MBZ] Global Warming In MD, Yo

[Jon Agne via Mercedes]

One of the good things about studying stats is that you know how they CAN be 
manipulated, and when to know if they are genuinely presented.


> On Dec 17, 2016, at 6:31 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> It aint what was in your stat text.  It is hilarious, but dead serious.   It 
> is one book I will never get rid of.
> 
>> Jon Agne via Mercedes 
>> December 17, 2016 at 4:01 PM
>> I am sure that it’s a good book. I studied Statistics and Economics at 
>> Northwestern. I fully understand them.
>> 
>> Jon
>> Accident in Maryland, yo!
>> 
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lba_yQHzZCo=em
>> 
>> 
>> Rick
>> Sent from an outdated phone
> 
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Re: [MBZ] Global Warming In MD, Yo

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

It aint what was in your stat text.  It is hilarious, but dead 
serious.   It is one book I will never get rid of.



Jon Agne via Mercedes 
December 17, 2016 at 4:01 PM
I am sure that it’s a good book. I studied Statistics and Economics at 
Northwestern. I fully understand them.


Jon
Accident in Maryland, yo!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lba_yQHzZCo=em


Rick
Sent from an outdated phone


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Re: [MBZ] Global Warming In MD, Yo

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

I did.  Quite a spectacular crash.  I heard about the pileup on the 
radio today, but nothing about how spectacular it was.


That is but a drop in the bucket.  Albore burns up that much fuel just 
getting his fat keester off the ground.



Rick Knoble via Mercedes 
December 17, 2016 at 3:01 PM
‎Obviously no one watched the video...

Rick


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Re: [MBZ] Global Warming In MD, Yo

[Rick Knoble via Mercedes]

Craig sez:

>Well, I did. It shows a mess on an icy I-95 with a fire and two people
>dead.

>But, your tying an icy I-95 to global warming brought that subject up for
>discussion.

Yeah. My bad. I should've made the subject Fire and Ice, or something else.

Rick
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Re: [MBZ] Global Warming In MD, Yo

[Jon Agne via Mercedes]

I am sure that it’s a good book.  I studied Statistics and Economics at 
Northwestern.  I fully understand them.

Jon


> On Dec 17, 2016, at 3:17 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> Jon, I know you are a very intelligent guy.   Read this book.  It is a 
> classic and was out of print for decades, but within in lies universal truth, 
> presented in a humorous way.  Now it is back in print again.
> https://www.amazon.com/How-Lie-Statistics-Darrell-Huff/dp/0393310728You 
> can read the first few pages online for free.
> 
> It is under $10.  Or you local welfare bookstore probably has a copy you can 
> read for free. (pubic library)
> 
> I was fortunate enough to get a copy from one of my several Statistics profs 
> when he retired.  He tried to teach Ed statistics to wannabe school sups.  
> The majority of them were dumber that a rock.
> 
> It is the ONLY book from college or grad school I continue to refer to!  In 
> fact, it was not even a required book, but Dr Neteusil in the Ed Stat class 
> kept referring to it because ed statistics (and peer reviewed pubs) are rife 
> with statistical errors, bias and misapplication.
> 
>> Jon Agne via Mercedes 
>> December 17, 2016 at 1:19 PM
>> https://www.climate-lab-book.ac.uk/2016/spiralling-global-temperatures/ 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _
> 
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Re: [MBZ] Global Warming In MD, Yo

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 21:01:49 + Rick Knoble via Mercedes
 wrote:

> ‎Obviously no one watched the video...

Well, I did. It shows a mess on an icy I-95 with a fire and two people
dead.

But, your tying an icy I-95 to global warming brought that subject up for
discussion.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] Global Warming In MD, Yo

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

The heat is melting the ice caps y'all.

On Dec 17, 2016 3:17 PM, "Curley McLain via Mercedes" 
wrote:

> Jon, I know you are a very intelligent guy.   Read this book.  It is a
> classic and was out of print for decades, but within in lies universal
> truth, presented in a humorous way.  Now it is back in print again.
> https://www.amazon.com/How-Lie-Statistics-Darrell-Huff/dp/0393310728
> You can read the first few pages online for free.
>
> It is under $10.  Or you local welfare bookstore probably has a copy you
> can read for free. (pubic library)
>
> I was fortunate enough to get a copy from one of my several Statistics
> profs when he retired.  He tried to teach Ed statistics to wannabe school
> sups.  The majority of them were dumber that a rock.
>
> It is the ONLY book from college or grad school I continue to refer to!
> In fact, it was not even a required book, but Dr Neteusil in the Ed Stat
> class kept referring to it because ed statistics (and peer reviewed pubs)
> are rife with statistical errors, bias and misapplication.
>
> Jon Agne via Mercedes 
>> December 17, 2016 at 1:19 PM
>> https://www.climate-lab-book.ac.uk/2016/spiralling-global-temperatures/ <
>> https://www.climate-lab-book.ac.uk/2016/spiralling-global-temperatures/>
>>
>>
>>
>> _
>>
>
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>
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>
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Re: [MBZ] Global Warming In MD, Yo

[Rick Knoble via Mercedes]

‎Obviously no one watched the video...

Rick 
 
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Re: [MBZ] Global Warming In MD, Yo

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

Jon, I know you are a very intelligent guy.   Read this book.  It is a 
classic and was out of print for decades, but within in lies universal 
truth, presented in a humorous way.  Now it is back in print again.
https://www.amazon.com/How-Lie-Statistics-Darrell-Huff/dp/0393310728
You can read the first few pages online for free.


It is under $10.  Or you local welfare bookstore probably has a copy you 
can read for free. (pubic library)


I was fortunate enough to get a copy from one of my several Statistics 
profs when he retired.  He tried to teach Ed statistics to wannabe 
school sups.  The majority of them were dumber that a rock.


It is the ONLY book from college or grad school I continue to refer to!  
In fact, it was not even a required book, but Dr Neteusil in the Ed Stat 
class kept referring to it because ed statistics (and peer reviewed 
pubs) are rife with statistical errors, bias and misapplication.



Jon Agne via Mercedes 
December 17, 2016 at 1:19 PM
https://www.climate-lab-book.ac.uk/2016/spiralling-global-temperatures/ 




_


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Re: [MBZ] Global Warming In MD, Yo

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 14:19:20 -0500 Jon Agne via Mercedes
 wrote:

> https://www.climate-lab-book.ac.uk/2016/spiralling-global-temperatures/
>  > On Dec 17, 2016, at 2:04 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes
> >  wrote:
> > 
> > Albore must be flyin all over.   Record cold around here.  Record
> > cold all over the norther states.   Ice in Maryland!  Who'd thunk
> > it?  It is 20 years after albore told us we were all gonna melt.
> > WHERE IS THAT HEAT?
> > 
> >> Rick Knoble via Mercedes 
> >> December 17, 2016 at 12:55 PM
> >> Accident in Maryland, yo!
> >> 
> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lba_yQHzZCo=em

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Re: [MBZ] Global Warming In MD, Yo

[Jon Agne via Mercedes]

https://www.climate-lab-book.ac.uk/2016/spiralling-global-temperatures/ 



> On Dec 17, 2016, at 2:04 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> Albore must be flyin all over.   Record cold around here.  Record cold all 
> over the norther states.   Ice in Maryland!  Who'd thunk it?  It is 20 years 
> after albore told us we were all gonna melt.  WHERE IS THAT HEAT?
> 
>> Rick Knoble via Mercedes 
>> December 17, 2016 at 12:55 PM
>> Accident in Maryland, yo!
>> 
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lba_yQHzZCo=em
>> 
>> 
>> Rick
>> Sent from an outdated phone
> 
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Re: [MBZ] Global Warming In MD, Yo

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

Albore must be flyin all over.   Record cold around here.  Record cold 
all over the norther states.   Ice in Maryland!  Who'd thunk it?  It is 
20 years after albore told us we were all gonna melt.  WHERE IS THAT HEAT?



Rick Knoble via Mercedes 
December 17, 2016 at 12:55 PM
Accident in Maryland, yo!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lba_yQHzZCo=em


Rick
Sent from an outdated phone


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[MBZ] Global Warming In MD, Yo

[Rick Knoble via Mercedes]

Accident in Maryland, yo!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lba_yQHzZCo=em


Rick 
Sent from an outdated phone
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Re: [MBZ] Global warming? No, Global ice age.

[OK Don]

The prairies also have a LOT more trees than they did before the invasion
of the white man. This is mostly due to the control and attempted
elimination of wild fires.

On Sat, Apr 4, 2015 at 8:20 AM, Curt Raymond curtlud...@yahoo.com wrote:

 snip
 The state of Maine has more forest now than it did between the two world
 wars.

 Curt




-- 
OK Don

NSA: The only branch of government that actually listens to US citizens!

*“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of
our people need it sorely on these accounts.”* – Mark Twain

There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who
learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
for themselves.

WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
2013 F150, 18 mpg
2012 Passat TDI DSG, 44 mpg
1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
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Re: [MBZ] Global warming? No, Global ice age.

[Curt Raymond]

We have planted over 6000 trees in the last 12 years foresting around 10 acres. 
More recently mother nature does a better job filling in my fields than we can 
so I just use the mower to thin out the 9' rows between trees.

The state of Maine has more forest now than it did between the two world wars.

Curt

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

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Re: [MBZ] Global warming? No, Global ice age.

[Andrew Strasfogel]

Nice trees or scraggly shrubby ones?

On Sat, Apr 4, 2015 at 12:00 PM, OK Don okd...@gmail.com wrote:

 The prairies also have a LOT more trees than they did before the invasion
 of the white man. This is mostly due to the control and attempted
 elimination of wild fires.

 On Sat, Apr 4, 2015 at 8:20 AM, Curt Raymond curtlud...@yahoo.com wrote:

  snip
  The state of Maine has more forest now than it did between the two world
  wars.
 
  Curt
 



 --
 OK Don

 NSA: The only branch of government that actually listens to US citizens!

 *“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of
 our people need it sorely on these accounts.”* – Mark Twain

 There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who
 learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
 for themselves.

 WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
 2013 F150, 18 mpg
 2012 Passat TDI DSG, 44 mpg
 1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
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Re: [MBZ] Global warming? No, Global ice age.

[OK Don]

Mostly Eastern Red Cedar (they almost explode in a fire) and Black Jack Oak
around here. No, not pretty trees, but they do shelter the soil from the
wind and provide shade, etc.

On Sat, Apr 4, 2015 at 11:17 AM, Andrew Strasfogel astrasfo...@gmail.com
wrote:

 Nice trees or scraggly shrubby ones?





-- 
OK Don

NSA: The only branch of government that actually listens to US citizens!

*“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of
our people need it sorely on these accounts.”* – Mark Twain

There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who
learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
for themselves.

WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
2013 F150, 18 mpg
2012 Passat TDI DSG, 44 mpg
1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
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Re: [MBZ] Global warming? No, Global ice age.

[Rich Thomas]

Like these guys?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3017373/Obama-loses-footing-getting-Air-Force-One-weekend-golf-getaway-Florida-played-donor-friends-sports-franchise-owners.html

   The president's Sunday also featured a golf game with Houston Astros
   owner Jim Crane, who is a major Democratic party donor with a net
   worth estimated at $2billion.

   The pair's foursome was joined by Mitch Carroll, who is on the board
   of directors at oil company Halliburton, and private equity investor
   Glenn Hutchins, part owner of the Boston Celtics.

--R

On 3/30/15 11:13 AM, Andrew Strasfogel wrote:

In the real world, big oil and coal hire scientists to promote views that
serves the economic interests of the polluting industries.  Nothing wrong
with that, provided you see it for the BS that it is.

On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 11:47 PM, Curly McLain 126die...@gmail.com wrote:


Andrew sez: It's much more comforting to rely on the best data money can

buy.



IT is true, that those who surround themselves with the best data money
can buy and yesmen and devoted followers are comforted in their cocoon.

However that is not reality.  In the real world, honest people tell you
things you don't want to hear, things that harm you, things that are
uncomfortable, and sometimes good things.   It is seldom comfortable.

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Re: [MBZ] Global warming? No, Global ice age.

[Andrew Strasfogel]

In the real world, big oil and coal hire scientists to promote views that
serves the economic interests of the polluting industries.  Nothing wrong
with that, provided you see it for the BS that it is.

On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 11:47 PM, Curly McLain 126die...@gmail.com wrote:

 Andrew sez: It's much more comforting to rely on the best data money can
 buy.


 IT is true, that those who surround themselves with the best data money
 can buy and yesmen and devoted followers are comforted in their cocoon.

 However that is not reality.  In the real world, honest people tell you
 things you don't want to hear, things that harm you, things that are
 uncomfortable, and sometimes good things.   It is seldom comfortable.

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Re: [MBZ] Global warming? No, Global ice age.

[Curly McLain]

Andrew sez: In the real world, big goobermnt and big enviro hire 
scientists to promote views that
serves the economic interests of the big goobermnt and enviro 
industries.  If real data does not support these views, they make up 
the data and distort computer models to prove their position. 
Nothing wrong with that, provided you see it for the BS that it is.




Is that what you really meant, Andrew?

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Re: [MBZ] Global warming? No, Global ice age.

[Andrew Strasfogel]

The commoners in this case are the oil and coal companies.  Does that make
sense?

On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 12:14 PM, Curly McLain 126die...@gmail.com wrote:

 What's good for the goose is good for the gander.


 Oops!  Sorry, the liberal hypocrisy is showing again.

 Liberals and liberal groups (goobermnt) are not subject to the laws that
 apply to the commoners.


 Wasn't there a war once that had something to do with kings and commoners?


  Not even close.

 On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 11:35 AM, Curly McLain 126die...@gmail.com
 wrote:

   Andrew sez: In the real world, big goobermnt and big enviro hire

  scientists to promote views that
  serves the economic interests of the big goobermnt and enviro
  industries.  If real data does not support these views, they make up
 the
  data and distort computer models to prove their position. Nothing
 wrong
  with that, provided you see it for the BS that it is.


Is that what you really meant, Andrew?
  


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Re: [MBZ] Global warming? No, Global ice age.

[Curly McLain]

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.


Oops!  Sorry, the liberal hypocrisy is showing again.

Liberals and liberal groups (goobermnt) are not subject to the laws 
that apply to the commoners.



Wasn't there a war once that had something to do with kings and commoners?



Not even close.

On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 11:35 AM, Curly McLain 126die...@gmail.com wrote:


 Andrew sez: In the real world, big goobermnt and big enviro hire

 scientists to promote views that
 serves the economic interests of the big goobermnt and enviro
 industries.  If real data does not support these views, they make up the
 data and distort computer models to prove their position. Nothing wrong
 with that, provided you see it for the BS that it is.



  Is that what you really meant, Andrew?
 


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Re: [MBZ] Global warming? No, Global ice age.

[OK Don]

Sorry, but it's not a liberal trait - it is shared by both ends of the
political spectrum. Power corrupts . . .



On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 11:14 AM, Curly McLain 126die...@gmail.com wrote:

 What's good for the goose is good for the gander.


 Oops!  Sorry, the liberal hypocrisy is showing again.

 Liberals and liberal groups (goobermnt) are not subject to the laws that
 apply to the commoners.


 Wasn't there a war once that had something to do with kings and commoners?




-- 
OK Don

NSA: The only branch of government that actually listens to US citizens!

*“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of
our people need it sorely on these accounts.”* – Mark Twain

There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who
learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
for themselves.

WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
2013 F150, 18 mpg
2012 Passat TDI DSG, 44 mpg
1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
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Re: [MBZ] Global warming? No, Global ice age.

[Scott Ritchey]

 Andrew asked: If Al Gore hitchhiked instead of flying in a jet would you
then
 acknowledge that climate change was real and man-made?

Of course not.  There is no connection between Gore's behavior and the
validity of a theory about a cause and effect relationship between use of
fossil fuels and climate change.  But I will say that the climate alarmists
would have more credibility if they themselves were not among the worst CO2
polluters.  

We know from history and geologic data that the world has been much warmer
(and much cooler) than it is now and that CO2 levels have been much higher
(and somewhat lower) than now; so higher CO2 levels and climate change are
not unprecedented, even before humans started releasing significant
quantities of CO2. Furthermore, the US is a minority producer of CO2, so
there is really NOTHING the US can do to significantly reduce global CO2
levels.  So whatever is happening will continue.  It's time to stop
sabotaging our economy in some futile hope that government mandates will
somehow save the world and plan to live with the inevitable result.  Every
change produces winners and losers.  If the forecast effects will really
happen (and that's still doubtful) let's learn how to assimilate them and
(hopefully) benefit.



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Re: [MBZ] Global warming? No, Global ice age.

[Andrew Strasfogel]

All of those geologic changes took eons; the current trends are
historical.  Connect the dots - they coincide with a huge boost in CO2
emissions.

I speak as a geologist, btw.  Yes, there are natural, transitory events
that may overshadow man's contributions to the atmosphere, e.g. Krakatoa,
but they come and go.  Man's consumption of fossil fuels is relentless.

I suggest we put this topic to rest for awhile.

On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 6:59 PM, Scott Ritchey ritche...@nc.rr.com wrote:


  Andrew asked: If Al Gore hitchhiked instead of flying in a jet would you
 then
  acknowledge that climate change was real and man-made?

 Of course not.  There is no connection between Gore's behavior and the
 validity of a theory about a cause and effect relationship between use of
 fossil fuels and climate change.  But I will say that the climate alarmists
 would have more credibility if they themselves were not among the worst CO2
 polluters.

 We know from history and geologic data that the world has been much warmer
 (and much cooler) than it is now and that CO2 levels have been much higher
 (and somewhat lower) than now; so higher CO2 levels and climate change are
 not unprecedented, even before humans started releasing significant
 quantities of CO2. Furthermore, the US is a minority producer of CO2, so
 there is really NOTHING the US can do to significantly reduce global CO2
 levels.  So whatever is happening will continue.  It's time to stop
 sabotaging our economy in some futile hope that government mandates will
 somehow save the world and plan to live with the inevitable result.
 Every
 change produces winners and losers.  If the forecast effects will really
 happen (and that's still doubtful) let's learn how to assimilate them and
 (hopefully) benefit.



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Re: [MBZ] Global warming? No, Global ice age.

[Andrew Strasfogel]

Not even close.

On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 11:35 AM, Curly McLain 126die...@gmail.com wrote:

 Andrew sez: In the real world, big goobermnt and big enviro hire
 scientists to promote views that
 serves the economic interests of the big goobermnt and enviro
 industries.  If real data does not support these views, they make up the
 data and distort computer models to prove their position. Nothing wrong
 with that, provided you see it for the BS that it is.


 Is that what you really meant, Andrew?


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Re: [MBZ] Global warming? No, Global ice age.

[Mountain Man]

Peter wrote:
 The original Easter Deciduous Forest was more or less undamaged by fire --
 trees averaged 90 foot to the canopy and it was closed in most places, so a
 fire in the duff didn't bother the trees much if at all.

That is what I saw in Oregon driving home with Gay Larry's 240D on US20.
If there ain't duff, fires never get started - fire needs fuel.  No
duff, no fuel.
mao

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Re: [MBZ] Global warming? No, Global ice age.

[Curly McLain]

If Al Gore hitchhiked instead of flying in a jet would you then acknowledge
that climate change was real and man-made?



It would only mean that albore is not so much a hypocrite.  It does 
not change the facts of temperature, or manufactured data or flawed 
computer models.


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Re: [MBZ] Global warming? No, Global ice age.

[Andrew Strasfogel]

If Al Gore hitchhiked instead of flying in a jet would you then acknowledge
that climate change was real and man-made?

On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 9:55 PM, Curly McLain 126die...@gmail.com wrote:

 Scott Richey sez:

  Or, we can look at it from the other side.  Exactly how low is the
 standard
 of living will we (specifically, you) accept?  If we all gave up cars,
 heated buildings, electricity, etc. the coal and oil companies would
 quickly
 disappear.  Of course out life expectancy would be cut in half and that
 would reduce emissions too.

  -Original Message-
  From:  Andrew Strasfogel
  Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2015 11:28 AM

  In other words, do anything to keep the oil and coal companies in

 business
  
 ...


 Scott,  your perspective ties into this prior post:

 bears are dying, the ice caps are melting, we have to eliminate CO2, the
 sky is falling and the latest fear mongering by the albore crowd should do
 their bit to help.  Obviously since people caused all this in their eyes,
 they should do the right thing and unselfishly remove themselves from the
 planet.  Albore should be first in line.

 Being selfish, not one of them will.  This is not surprising, since they
 all define hypocracy with their actions.  Alabore flys around in his jets
 preaching to others not to, and so on down the line of the their rank and
 file.

 The hypocrisy of the liberal mindset is such that they believe all the
 rules are made for the peons, but they are exempt because they are special


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Re: [MBZ] Global warming? No, Global ice age.

[Andrew Strasfogel]

It's much more comforting to rely on the best data money can buy.

On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 11:14 PM, Curly McLain 126die...@gmail.com wrote:

 If Al Gore hitchhiked instead of flying in a jet would you then acknowledge
 that climate change was real and man-made?


 It would only mean that albore is not so much a hypocrite.  It does not
 change the facts of temperature, or manufactured data or flawed computer
 models.

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Re: [MBZ] Global warming? No, Global ice age.

[Scott Ritchey]

Or, we can look at it from the other side.  Exactly how low is the standard
of living will we (specifically, you) accept?  If we all gave up cars,
heated buildings, electricity, etc. the coal and oil companies would quickly
disappear.  Of course out life expectancy would be cut in half and that
would reduce emissions too.  

 -Original Message-
 From:  Andrew Strasfogel
 Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2015 11:28 AM
 
 In other words, do anything to keep the oil and coal companies in
business
 
...


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Re: [MBZ] Global warming? No, Global ice age.

[Curly McLain]

Andrew sez: It's much more comforting to rely on the best data money can buy.



IT is true, that those who surround themselves with the best data 
money can buy and yesmen and devoted followers are comforted in 
their cocoon.


However that is not reality.  In the real world, honest people tell 
you things you don't want to hear, things that harm you, things that 
are uncomfortable, and sometimes good things.   It is seldom 
comfortable.


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Re: [MBZ] Global warming? No, Global ice age.

[Mountain Man]

Rick wrote:
 I would suspect they get a tax incentive for solar. Not so much for trees.

 Solar 1, Trees 0.

I also like the article you put up a couple weeks ago from Michael Crichton:
http://www.michaelcrichton.net/essay-stateoffear-whypoliticizedscienceisdangerous.html

Who is Michael Crichton?
And, his idea that 'science' can be debated is real, i.e. regarding
climates.  We go to name calling too quick and each side claims
'science.'  And what about eugenics?  Why isn't eugenics taught with
much more force in schools? - not that eugenics is bad or good, just
that it played a role in wwii according to Michael Crichton and others
- I was never taught that stuff.  Search wwii eugenics to see other
articles.
Interesting and very bothersome.
mao

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Re: [MBZ] Global warming? No, Global ice age.

[Andrew Strasfogel]

In other words, do anything to keep the oil and coal companies in
business

On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 10:39 AM, Curly McLain 126die...@gmail.com wrote:

 One of the subjects grossly overlooked in the global warming debate is
 deforestation.  All that coal we are burning started out as forest, after
 all -- you can find the trees  in it when they get fossilized into coal
 balls of calcium carbonate instead of compressed into coal.

 Deforestation is a great climate changer -- one effect seems to be that
 cutting down all the trees on the south side of the Mediterreranean Sea is
 the semi-desert present rather than the dense forest present in Biblical
 times.  Removing the trees makes the ground warmer, and the warmer ground
 changes the surface winds, and the rain either never falls or goes
 somewhere else.  The heat radiating from the hot soil at night prevents
 condensation and prevents the normal isolate thunderstorm from appearing as
 well.

 Growing population will only make this trend worse, no one has the
 slightest interest in preserving the habitability of the planet.  Between
 clearing to grow crops and using firewood to cook, there won't be any trees
 left in a couple generations.

 Peter


 Taking the salt out of the rising ocean and using the water to grow
 plants and trees in the desert will fix this problem also, and still
 cheaper than all the global warming hocuspocus.  It also provides more food
 for animals and people.

 Go out and plant trees.  That reduces the co2.  Bonus points if you plant
 and water in the desert.


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Re: [MBZ] Global warming? No, Global ice age.

[Curly McLain]

In the US I am in possession of knowledge that says there are more 
trees now than before the European invaders arrived.  And apparently 
the pre-European-invader indigenous peoples were fairly 
indiscriminate about burning down huge forests for hunting or 
whatever reasons.  Around my parts trees are a cash crop so there 
are lots and lots of trees that grow, get cut down, more are 
planted...


--R


All these people who believe people are the problem and run around 
screaming the air is warming, the oceans are rising, the polar bears 
are dying, the ice caps are melting, we have to eliminate CO2, the 
sky is falling and the latest fear mongering by the albore crowd 
should do their bit to help.  Obviously since people caused all this 
in their eyes, they should do the right thing and unselfishly remove 
themselves from the planet.  Albore should be first in line.


Being selfish, not one of them will.  This is not surprising, since 
they all define hypocracy with their actions.  Alabore flys around in 
his jets preaching to others not to, and so on down the line of the 
their rank and file.



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Re: [MBZ] Global warming? No, Global ice age.

[Fred Moir]

Mr. McC wrote:-Go out and plant trees. That reduces the co2.Bonus points if 
you plant and water in the desert.
Best idea that I have heard in many a day.In the '60s the Israelis started a 
program to reclaim the deserts with a fairly simple system of keeping the soil 
where it was by coating it with a plastic-like substance and thereby allowing 
things, Trees!, to grow, along with other crops. They also tried it in N Africa 
as well, political crap got in the way of that effort. (Sound familiar?).Ideas 
we have, political balls is what we need.YMMV.
Fred Moir.Lynn MA.Diesel preferred.
 

  
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Re: [MBZ] Global warming? No, Global ice age.

[Curly McLain]

Mr. McC wrote:-Go out and plant trees. That reduces the co2.Bonus 
points if you plant and water in the desert.
Best idea that I have heard in many a day.In the '60s the Israelis 
started a program to reclaim the deserts with a fairly simple system 
of keeping the soil where it was by coating it with a plastic-like 
substance and thereby allowing things, Trees!, to grow, along with 
other crops. They also tried it in N Africa as well, political crap 
got in the way of that effort. (Sound familiar?).Ideas we have, 
political balls is what we need.YMMV.

Fred Moir.Lynn MA.Diesel preferred.




Send money!  we can start a new scare and outscare albore.   (grin)

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Re: [MBZ] Global warming? No, Global ice age.

[Curly McLain]

One of the subjects grossly overlooked in the global warming debate 
is deforestation.  All that coal we are burning started out as 
forest, after all -- you can find the trees  in it when they get 
fossilized into coal balls of calcium carbonate instead of 
compressed into coal.


Deforestation is a great climate changer -- one effect seems to be 
that cutting down all the trees on the south side of the 
Mediterreranean Sea is the semi-desert present rather than the dense 
forest present in Biblical times.  Removing the trees makes the 
ground warmer, and the warmer ground changes the surface winds, and 
the rain either never falls or goes somewhere else.  The heat 
radiating from the hot soil at night prevents condensation and 
prevents the normal isolate thunderstorm from appearing as well.


Growing population will only make this trend worse, no one has the 
slightest interest in preserving the habitability of the planet.  
Between clearing to grow crops and using firewood to cook, there 
won't be any trees left in a couple generations.


Peter


Taking the salt out of the rising ocean and using the water to grow 
plants and trees in the desert will fix this problem also, and still 
cheaper than all the global warming hocuspocus.  It also provides 
more food for animals and people.


Go out and plant trees.  That reduces the co2.  Bonus points if you 
plant and water in the desert.


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Re: [MBZ] Global warming? No, Global ice age.

[Rich Thomas]

In the US I am in possession of knowledge that says there are more trees 
now than before the European invaders arrived.  And apparently the 
pre-European-invader indigenous peoples were fairly indiscriminate about 
burning down huge forests for hunting or whatever reasons.  Around my 
parts trees are a cash crop so there are lots and lots of trees that 
grow, get cut down, more are planted...


--R



On 3/29/15 8:21 AM, Peter Frederick wrote:
One of the subjects grossly overlooked in the global warming debate is 
deforestation.  All that coal we are burning started out as forest, 
after all -- you can find the trees  in it when they get fossilized 
into coal balls of calcium carbonate instead of compressed into coal.


Deforestation is a great climate changer -- one effect seems to be 
that cutting down all the trees on the south side of the 
Mediterreranean Sea is the semi-desert present rather than the dense 
forest present in Biblical times.  Removing the trees makes the ground 
warmer, and the warmer ground changes the surface winds, and the rain 
either never falls or goes somewhere else. The heat radiating from the 
hot soil at night prevents condensation and prevents the normal 
isolate thunderstorm from appearing as well.


Growing population will only make this trend worse, no one has the 
slightest interest in preserving the habitability of the planet. 
Between clearing to grow crops and using firewood to cook, there won't 
be any trees left in a couple generations.


Peter


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Re: [MBZ] Global warming? No, Global ice age.

[Greg Fiorentino]

Michael Crichton (he died a while back) was a well-known author.  I believe
he was a medical student at the time he wrote The Andromeda Strain, a
brilliant piece of Sci-Fi.

Greg

-Original Message-
From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Mountain
Man
Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2015 6:02 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Global warming? No, Global ice age.

Rick wrote:
 I would suspect they get a tax incentive for solar. Not so much for trees.

 Solar 1, Trees 0.

I also like the article you put up a couple weeks ago from Michael Crichton:
http://www.michaelcrichton.net/essay-stateoffear-whypoliticizedscienceisdang
erous.html

Who is Michael Crichton?
And, his idea that 'science' can be debated is real, i.e. regarding
climates.  We go to name calling too quick and each side claims 'science.'
And what about eugenics?  Why isn't eugenics taught with much more force in
schools? - not that eugenics is bad or good, just that it played a role in
wwii according to Michael Crichton and others
- I was never taught that stuff.  Search wwii eugenics to see other
articles.
Interesting and very bothersome.
mao

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Re: [MBZ] Global warming? No, Global ice age.

[Curly McLain]

Scott Richey sez:


Or, we can look at it from the other side.  Exactly how low is the standard
of living will we (specifically, you) accept?  If we all gave up cars,
heated buildings, electricity, etc. the coal and oil companies would quickly
disappear.  Of course out life expectancy would be cut in half and that
would reduce emissions too. 


 -Original Message-
 From:  Andrew Strasfogel
 Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2015 11:28 AM

 In other words, do anything to keep the oil and coal companies in

business
 
...


Scott,  your perspective ties into this prior post:

bears are dying, the ice caps are melting, we have to eliminate CO2, 
the sky is falling and the latest fear mongering by the albore crowd 
should do their bit to help.  Obviously since people caused all this 
in their eyes, they should do the right thing and unselfishly remove 
themselves from the planet.  Albore should be first in line.


Being selfish, not one of them will.  This is not surprising, since 
they all define hypocracy with their actions.  Alabore flys around in 
his jets preaching to others not to, and so on down the line of the 
their rank and file.


The hypocrisy of the liberal mindset is such that they believe all 
the rules are made for the peons, but they are exempt because they 
are special


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Re: [MBZ] Global warming? No, Global ice age.

[Rick Knoble]

‎Peter wrote:

One of the subjects grossly overlooked in the global warming debate is  
deforestation.

http://www.nj.com/ocean/index.ssf/2015/03/great_adventure_going_solar_report_says.html

I would suspect they get a tax incentive for solar. Not so much for trees.

Solar 1, Trees 0. 

Rick 
Sent from my BlackBerry Z10

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Re: [MBZ] Global warming? No, Global ice age.

[Peter Frederick]

You obviously have not flown over the eastern half of the country in a  
while.  Initial reports were that a squirrel could travel from St.  
Louis to Boston without touching the ground, and I personally don't  
find that hard to believe.  Approximately 80% of the initial forest  
has been removed, and only minor amounts have grown back to anything  
near what was here.  If there are more trees, it's because they are  
twigs, not forest trees.


The original Easter Deciduous Forest was more or less undamaged by  
fire -- trees averaged 90 foot to the canopy and it was closed in most  
places, so a fire in the duff didn't bother the trees much if at all.   
No sun on the ground in the summer, very little underbrush, just a  
vast cathedral of enormous trees 15 ft in diameter and up.


There are certainly more DEER now, since they live in forest edges,  
not deep forest.  Deer are scarce in deep forest, there isn't anything  
for them to eat.


We have the amazing Wesselman's Woods Nature Preserve here in  
Evansville, approximately 100 acres of virgin Southern Indiana  
bottomland forest.  If you are ever here, stop by and see it, it's  
astonishing.  Nothing like it anywhere else in the Eastern US,  
anything similar was logged out long, long ago.


Peter

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Re: [MBZ] Global warming? No, Global ice age.

[Curly McLain]

Andrew sez:  The concern is that
warming of the polar regions is causing the ice caps to melt and sea level
to relentlessly rise, all because of growing CO2 emissions from industrial
sources world wide.


The solution is simple.  Plant more trees.  Water the great deserts, 
grow trees and food, and use up this alleged excess of co2.   Much 
less costly and way more productive than what the albore crowd 
proposes.


If the sea level raises, desalinate the water and pump it into the 
deserts to effect the above.


My suggestion is at LEAST as valid as what the albore crowd suggests, 
and much more productive.  Takes care of the alleged co2 AND the 
alleged rising sea level.


But the underlying premises are still based on falsified data and 
faulty computer models that have been discredited.


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Re: [MBZ] Global warming? No, Global ice age.

[Rick Knoble via Mercedes]

I have always enjoyed George Carlin's take on it. 

http://youtu.be/BB0aFPXr4n4

Interesting little video.

http://youtu.be/nq4Bc2WCsdE

I think Gerry posted this the other day. 

http://youtu.be/SyUDGfCNC-k

A satirical look. 

http://youtu.be/qldJRY5aGaA

http://youtu.be/3IQIcNeKJL8

Rick 
Sent from my BlackBerry Z10

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Re: [MBZ] Global warming? No, Global ice age.

[G Mann via Mercedes]

Rich..
I like how you think... seems you have true management potential for this
study.. Please write your self in.. ;))

Grant...

On Sat, Mar 7, 2015 at 6:41 AM, Rich Thomas via Mercedes 
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

 We'll need a coupla G-5s at our disposal to fly to international
 conferences in nice places too, and plenty of good food and drink to
 facilitate the discussions.  The accommodations must be top-shelf as well,
 we need our rest.

 We can ask Bill Clinton to be on the board, he can provide insights into
 hiring proper flight attendants and personal support staff.

 --R



 On 3/6/15 8:46 PM, G Mann wrote:

 Taking this one step farther into the chain of fact based logic,
 following the assumption the statement above is factual, it would appear
 the best shield we have to protect against a solar flare would be a good
 strong layer of CO2 overhead, which could then attenuate the radiation
 intensity of the solar flare and thus save life and civilization.

 Thus, lowering CO2 content would have the adverse effect of placing
 mankind and all living things at greater risk, rather than lesser.

 Well then.. who will write the grant request for the Congressional
 appropriation to study this and create a new, safer, Eco-friendly CO2
 content, for the children [of course].

 $20.000.000.000 has a nice ring to it.. just to cover the operations
 expense of the study... and pay for the investigative junkets  for
 Congressmen and their selected personal secretaries .. ;))

 Then of course, we need a spokes person, the Al Gore of More CO2 is
 good for you... That would eat up several million per year..

 Grant...


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Re: [MBZ] Global warming? No, Global ice age.

[Rich Thomas via Mercedes]

We'll need a coupla G-5s at our disposal to fly to international 
conferences in nice places too, and plenty of good food and drink to 
facilitate the discussions.  The accommodations must be top-shelf as 
well, we need our rest.


We can ask Bill Clinton to be on the board, he can provide insights into 
hiring proper flight attendants and personal support staff.


--R



On 3/6/15 8:46 PM, G Mann wrote:
Taking this one step farther into the chain of fact based logic, 
following the assumption the statement above is factual, it would 
appear the best shield we have to protect against a solar flare would 
be a good strong layer of CO2 overhead, which could then attenuate the 
radiation intensity of the solar flare and thus save life and 
civilization.


Thus, lowering CO2 content would have the adverse effect of placing 
mankind and all living things at greater risk, rather than lesser.


Well then.. who will write the grant request for the Congressional 
appropriation to study this and create a new, safer, Eco-friendly CO2 
content, for the children [of course].


$20.000.000.000 has a nice ring to it.. just to cover the operations 
expense of the study... and pay for the investigative junkets  for 
Congressmen and their selected personal secretaries .. ;))


Then of course, we need a spokes person, the Al Gore of More CO2 is 
good for you... That would eat up several million per year..


Grant...


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Re: [MBZ] Global warming? No, Global ice age.

[Peter Frederick via Mercedes]

It is too simple -- the greenhouse effect  of carbon dioxide is that  
it absorbs some wavelengths of IR and not others, so that heat from  
the sun is trapped when IR radiation passes through the carbon dioxide  
and heats the earth while re-radiated heat, at a different wavelength,  
is absorbed or reflected back down.


Glass works much the same way, which is why greenhouses are so much  
warmer during the day than wooden or metal buildings which allow the  
heat to re-radiate right back out.


Methane has stronger absorbance at similar wavelengths than carbon  
dioxide and is a stronger greenhouse gas.


Peter

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Re: [MBZ] Global warming? No, Global ice age.

[rogerhga--- via Mercedes]

Several years ago, I read articles about the magnetic poles flipping.  The 
article described how the Earth's magnetic fields will weaken in areas allowing 
the Sun's radiation to get through more strongly causing more skin cancer 
cases.  I'm not a scientist, but I wonder if any of this is causing problems in 
certain areas of the world and no one is talking about it because no amount of 
money will stop or affect it.  The last chart/map I saw showed weakened 
magnetic fields in the South Pacific towards Antarctica. 
Is anyone else familiar with this and do you think it could be having negative 
affects on the Earth's weather/climate/temperature (I've including 3, pick your 
favorite). 
Just some thoughts... 
Best Wishes, 
Roger 
Roger Hale 
Dinnerware Classics, Inc. 
Monroe, Ga. 
770-267-0850 
www.dinnerwareclassics.com  (new) 
www.southernnightsantiques.com  (antique) 

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[MBZ] Global warming? No, Global ice age.

[archer75--- via Mercedes]

80-yr-old Weather Channel Founder Explains the History of the Global Warming 
Fraud

John Coleman, 80-year-old award-winning meteorologist and founder of the 
Weather Channel explains the history of the global warming fraud.

“Politics had gotten in the way of the science.” Coleman explains that there is 
no man-made global warming, and he’s sure of it.

Coleman says:

“I love our wonderful planet Earth. If I thought it was threatened by global 
warming, I would devote my life to stopping the warming!”

Now they call it “climate change” instead of global warming, because the 
warming has stopped, says Coleman, and that $4.7 billion in taxpayer money is 
funding “bogus reports” and “bogus research.”

At about 11:30, Coleman begins a detailed explanation about just how the global 
warming fraud was started and heated up, including how Al Gore got involved in 
the movement, TPNN reported.

http://conservativepost.com/80-yr-old-weather-channel-founder-explains-the-history-of-the-global-warming-fraud/

Colemans speech here: ^

Gerry


Rich Thomas wrote:

 And the warmists take the Alinski Rules for Radicals approach, so it 
 sorta balances out.
 
 BTW RfR is actually quite interesting, and can work either way, 
 depending on what root you are growing from.  The whole idea is to 
 deflect from the facts of the matter at hand, and take shots at the 
 people involved, or to obfuscate, or do much of anything but actually 
 debate the issue rationally.
 
 Speaking of ice ages, I remember back in the late 60s/ early 70s when 
 Paul Ehrlich ( “The Population Bomb”) was predicting we would all be 
 freezing and starving in the cold dark because a new ice age was coming, 
 oil was running out, there would be too many hungry people, no food, 
 etc. He would go on Johnny Carson and spout all this stuff, and people 
 believed it because SCIENCE!  Now he has slid over to the warmist side, 
 I guess he realized he needed to get more air time and make more money.
 
 http://newsbusters.org/blogs/sean-long/2014/05/22/alarmist-paul-ehrlich-predicts-need-eat-bodies-your-dead
 
 Or some would say he is now convinced of warmism because SCIENCE!
 
 
 --R
 
 
 
 On 3/6/15 6:20 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes wrote:
  I'm not taking sides here, but I thought I would share an interesting story 
  on All Things Considered this afternoon.
 
  They interviewed a director who recently made a film about both sides of 
  this issue, and how each one tried to promote their side. The most 
  interesting part (I thought) was the anti-global warming guy who talked 
  about how he used the same tactics that Big Tobacco did when fighting the 
  smoking is dangerous to people's health issue.
 
  http://www.npr.org/2015/03/06/391269315/merchants-of-doubt-explores-work-of-climate-change-deniers
 
  Dan
 
  Sent from my iPad
 
  On Mar 6, 2015, at 5:48 PM, Max Dillon via Mercedes 
  mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:
 
  Great video!
 
  Followed the link at the end to KUSI website for Coleman's Corner, which 
  apparently no longer exists there.
 
  However I did find a letter from a physicist explaining how increasing CO2 
  cannot cause any warming.  Very briefly and simplifying, CO2 absorbs 
  radiation from the sun at the 15 micron wavelength (infrared).  All of 
  that radiation is absorbed in the upper atmosphere.  None reaches the 
  surface.  In other words, all possible atmospheric warming due to CO2 is 
  already occurring.  Increasing CO2 had no effect, because there is no more 
  radiation left for it to absorb.
  -- 
  Max Dillon
  Charleston SC
  '87 300TD
  '95 E300
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 No virus found in this message.
 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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-- 
arche...@embarqmail.com arche...@embarqmail.com

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Re: [MBZ] Global warming? No, Global ice age.

[fmiser via Mercedes]

 Peter wrote:
 
 Methane has stronger absorbance at similar wavelengths than
 carbon dioxide and is a stronger greenhouse gas.

Water vapor is even stronger - way stronger.

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Re: [MBZ] Global warming? No, Global ice age.

[Mountain Man via Mercedes]

Grant wrote:
 $20.000.000.000 has a nice ring to it..

Yeah.
The same amount from fedgov certainly changed the computer industry 35
years ago.  Fedgov does not invent or discover anything.  ...or do
they...
mao

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Re: [MBZ] Global warming? No, Global ice age.

[Max Dillon via Mercedes]

Great video!

Followed the link at the end to KUSI website for Coleman's Corner, which 
apparently no longer exists there. 

 However I did find a letter from a physicist explaining how increasing CO2 
cannot cause any warming.  Very briefly and simplifying, CO2 absorbs radiation 
from the sun at the 15 micron wavelength (infrared).  All of that radiation is 
absorbed in the upper atmosphere.  None reaches the surface.  In other words, 
all possible atmospheric warming due to CO2 is already occurring.  Increasing 
CO2 had no effect, because there is no more radiation left for it to absorb.
-- 
Max Dillon
Charleston SC
'87 300TD
'95 E300

On March 6, 2015 12:10:09 PM EST, Mike Esh via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com 
wrote:
John Coleman says no to human induced global warming!

http://conservativepost.com/80-yr-old-weather-channel-founder-explains-the-history-of-the-global-warming-fraud/

Michael E. Esh
me...@horizonenv.com
michael...@mac.com
http://www.yugster.com/invite/138123
(C) 231.286.2344


On Mar 06, 2015, at 12:41 AM, Curly McLain via Mercedes
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

 The brutal winter is on the attack again, bringing sleet and heavy
 snow to the mid-Atlantic region. Previous storms targeted the deep
 south including Dallas, Texas, and several hammered New England. By
 March 4, Boston was just 2 inches away from hitting an all-time
 record for snow, Boston.com reported.

 It's a reality more in keeping with media warnings from the 1970s
 than today's arguments about global warming.

 Then, CBS anchor Walter Cronkite, the dean of American journalism,
 was warning about an ice age. Cronkite cited scientific claims
 that the Earth was cooling and the full extent of the new ice age
 won't be reached for 10,000 years.

 That's completely different from the media's line today that global
 warming is settled sciencesnip


http://newsbusters.org/blogs/julia-seymour/2015/03/05/and-thats-way-it-was-1972-cronkite-warned-new-ice-age
  

 Makes sense, doesn't it?
 Gerry


 And Walter stole it from Popular Science. It was a cover story there
 first. It was a great magazine back then. In the 70s when the 3
 BS stations had a news story about new products or technology, I
 had read it usually a year or more earlier in Popular Science.

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Re: [MBZ] Global warming? No, Global ice age.

[Rich Thomas via Mercedes]

And the warmists take the Alinski Rules for Radicals approach, so it 
sorta balances out.


BTW RfR is actually quite interesting, and can work either way, 
depending on what root you are growing from.  The whole idea is to 
deflect from the facts of the matter at hand, and take shots at the 
people involved, or to obfuscate, or do much of anything but actually 
debate the issue rationally.


Speaking of ice ages, I remember back in the late 60s/ early 70s when 
Paul Ehrlich ( “The Population Bomb”) was predicting we would all be 
freezing and starving in the cold dark because a new ice age was coming, 
oil was running out, there would be too many hungry people, no food, 
etc. He would go on Johnny Carson and spout all this stuff, and people 
believed it because SCIENCE!  Now he has slid over to the warmist side, 
I guess he realized he needed to get more air time and make more money.


http://newsbusters.org/blogs/sean-long/2014/05/22/alarmist-paul-ehrlich-predicts-need-eat-bodies-your-dead

Or some would say he is now convinced of warmism because SCIENCE!


--R



On 3/6/15 6:20 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes wrote:

I'm not taking sides here, but I thought I would share an interesting story on All 
Things Considered this afternoon.

They interviewed a director who recently made a film about both sides of this issue, and 
how each one tried to promote their side. The most interesting part (I thought) was the 
anti-global warming guy who talked about how he used the same tactics that Big Tobacco 
did when fighting the smoking is dangerous to people's health issue.

http://www.npr.org/2015/03/06/391269315/merchants-of-doubt-explores-work-of-climate-change-deniers

Dan

Sent from my iPad


On Mar 6, 2015, at 5:48 PM, Max Dillon via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com 
wrote:

Great video!

Followed the link at the end to KUSI website for Coleman's Corner, which 
apparently no longer exists there.

However I did find a letter from a physicist explaining how increasing CO2 
cannot cause any warming.  Very briefly and simplifying, CO2 absorbs radiation 
from the sun at the 15 micron wavelength (infrared).  All of that radiation is 
absorbed in the upper atmosphere.  None reaches the surface.  In other words, 
all possible atmospheric warming due to CO2 is already occurring.  Increasing 
CO2 had no effect, because there is no more radiation left for it to absorb.
--
Max Dillon
Charleston SC
'87 300TD
'95 E300

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Re: [MBZ] Global warming? No, Global ice age.

[Max Dillon via Mercedes]

Craig,

I'd like to hear your thoughts on the physics discussed in this letter, and 
also if you can find out if the author is who he says he is:

http://www.kusi.com/story/19600263/why-man-made-global-warming-is-ridiculous

This explanation seems too simple.
-- 
Max Dillon
Charleston SC
'87 300TD
'95 E300
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Re: [MBZ] Global warming? No, Global ice age.

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

I'm not taking sides here, but I thought I would share an interesting story on 
All Things Considered this afternoon.

They interviewed a director who recently made a film about both sides of this 
issue, and how each one tried to promote their side. The most interesting part 
(I thought) was the anti-global warming guy who talked about how he used the 
same tactics that Big Tobacco did when fighting the smoking is dangerous to 
people's health issue.

http://www.npr.org/2015/03/06/391269315/merchants-of-doubt-explores-work-of-climate-change-deniers

Dan

Sent from my iPad

 On Mar 6, 2015, at 5:48 PM, Max Dillon via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com 
 wrote:
 
 Great video!
 
 Followed the link at the end to KUSI website for Coleman's Corner, which 
 apparently no longer exists there. 
 
 However I did find a letter from a physicist explaining how increasing CO2 
 cannot cause any warming.  Very briefly and simplifying, CO2 absorbs 
 radiation from the sun at the 15 micron wavelength (infrared).  All of that 
 radiation is absorbed in the upper atmosphere.  None reaches the surface.  In 
 other words, all possible atmospheric warming due to CO2 is already 
 occurring.  Increasing CO2 had no effect, because there is no more radiation 
 left for it to absorb.
 -- 
 Max Dillon
 Charleston SC
 '87 300TD
 '95 E300

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Re: [MBZ] Global warming? No, Global ice age.

[G Mann via Mercedes]

  However I did find a letter from a physicist explaining how
increasing CO2 cannot cause any warming.  Very briefly and simplifying, CO2
absorbs radiation from the sun at the 15 micron wavelength (infrared).  All
of that radiation is absorbed in the upper atmosphere.  None reaches the
surface.  In other words, all possible atmospheric warming due to CO2 is
already occurring.  Increasing CO2 had no effect, because there is no more
radiation left for it to absorb.

Taking this one step farther into the chain of fact based logic, following
the assumption the statement above is factual, it would appear the best
shield we have to protect against a solar flare would be a good strong
layer of CO2 overhead, which could then attenuate the radiation intensity
of the solar flare and thus save life and civilization.

Thus, lowering CO2 content would have the adverse effect of placing mankind
and all living things at greater risk, rather than lesser.

Well then.. who will write the grant request for the Congressional
appropriation to study this and create a new, safer, Eco-friendly CO2
content, for the children [of course].

$20.000.000.000 has a nice ring to it.. just to cover the operations
expense of the study... and pay for the investigative junkets  for
Congressmen and their selected personal secretaries .. ;))

Then of course, we need a spokes person, the Al Gore of More CO2 is good
for you... That would eat up several million per year..

Grant...

On Fri, Mar 6, 2015 at 4:41 PM, Rich Thomas via Mercedes 
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

 And the warmists take the Alinski Rules for Radicals approach, so it sorta
 balances out.

 BTW RfR is actually quite interesting, and can work either way, depending
 on what root you are growing from.  The whole idea is to deflect from the
 facts of the matter at hand, and take shots at the people involved, or to
 obfuscate, or do much of anything but actually debate the issue rationally.

 Speaking of ice ages, I remember back in the late 60s/ early 70s when Paul
 Ehrlich ( “The Population Bomb”) was predicting we would all be freezing
 and starving in the cold dark because a new ice age was coming, oil was
 running out, there would be too many hungry people, no food, etc. He would
 go on Johnny Carson and spout all this stuff, and people believed it
 because SCIENCE!  Now he has slid over to the warmist side, I guess he
 realized he needed to get more air time and make more money.

 http://newsbusters.org/blogs/sean-long/2014/05/22/alarmist-
 paul-ehrlich-predicts-need-eat-bodies-your-dead

 Or some would say he is now convinced of warmism because SCIENCE!


 --R




 On 3/6/15 6:20 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes wrote:

 I'm not taking sides here, but I thought I would share an interesting
 story on All Things Considered this afternoon.

 They interviewed a director who recently made a film about both sides of
 this issue, and how each one tried to promote their side. The most
 interesting part (I thought) was the anti-global warming guy who talked
 about how he used the same tactics that Big Tobacco did when fighting the
 smoking is dangerous to people's health issue.

 http://www.npr.org/2015/03/06/391269315/merchants-of-doubt-
 explores-work-of-climate-change-deniers

 Dan

 Sent from my iPad

  On Mar 6, 2015, at 5:48 PM, Max Dillon via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

 Great video!

 Followed the link at the end to KUSI website for Coleman's Corner,
 which apparently no longer exists there.

 However I did find a letter from a physicist explaining how increasing
 CO2 cannot cause any warming.  Very briefly and simplifying, CO2 absorbs
 radiation from the sun at the 15 micron wavelength (infrared).  All of that
 radiation is absorbed in the upper atmosphere.  None reaches the surface.
 In other words, all possible atmospheric warming due to CO2 is already
 occurring.  Increasing CO2 had no effect, because there is no more
 radiation left for it to absorb.
 --
 Max Dillon
 Charleston SC
 '87 300TD
 '95 E300

 ___
 http://www.okiebenz.com

 To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

 To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
 http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

 All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those
 individuals are responsible for the content of the post.  The list owner
 has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.


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___

Re: [MBZ] Global warming? No, Global ice age.

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

New England has had a cold winter with lots of snow, the pacific northwest has 
had a very warm winter and much of Minnesota has had essentially no snow. Last 
year while we had the polar vortex it was one of the warmest winters on 
record for much of the rest of the world.
Also remember the year before that we had zero snow from November (after the 
Halloween storm) until March.
Actually even last year we didn't have any snow until the blizzard the first 
week of February.
Snowmobilers tend to remember snow patterns...
-Curt
  From: dseretakis--- via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
 To: arche...@embarqmail.com arche...@embarqmail.com; Mercedes Discussion 
List mercedes@okiebenz.com 
 Sent: Friday, March 6, 2015 3:27 AM
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] Global warming? No, Global ice age.
   
I'm no climatologist, but in light of the past couple of winters, I simply 
cannot buy global warming. 
Nobody is going to convince me that red is green or that cold is hot. 
Sent from my iPhone

 On Mar 5, 2015, at 7:04 PM, archer75--- via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com 
 wrote:
 
 
 The “brutal” winter is on the attack again, bringing sleet and heavy snow to 
 the mid-Atlantic region. Previous storms targeted the deep south including 
 Dallas, Texas, and several hammered New England. By March 4, Boston was just 
 2 inches away from hitting an all-time record for snow, Boston.com reported.
 
 It’s a reality more in keeping with media warnings from the 1970s than 
 today’s arguments about global warming. 
 
 Then, CBS anchor Walter Cronkite, the dean of American journalism, was 
 warning about an ice age. Cronkite cited scientific claims that the Earth 
 was cooling and the full extent of the new ice age won't be reached for 
 10,000 years. 
 
 That's completely different from the media's line today that global warming 
 is settled sciencesnip
 
 http://newsbusters.org/blogs/julia-seymour/2015/03/05/and-thats-way-it-was-1972-cronkite-warned-new-ice-age
 
 Makes sense, doesn't it?
 Gerry
 
 
 
 ___
 http://www.okiebenz.com
 
 To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
 
 To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
 http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
 
 All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those 
 individuals are responsible for the content of the post.  The list owner has 
 no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.



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Re: [MBZ] Global warming? No, Global ice age.

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

If Boston were having another mild winter and the polar regions were frigid
as usual, we wouldn't be having this conversation.  The concern is that
warming of the polar regions is causing the ice caps to melt and sea level
to relentlessly rise, all because of growing CO2 emissions from industrial
sources world wide.

On Fri, Mar 6, 2015 at 10:33 AM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

 New England has had a cold winter with lots of snow, the pacific northwest
 has had a very warm winter and much of Minnesota has had essentially no
 snow. Last year while we had the polar vortex it was one of the warmest
 winters on record for much of the rest of the world.
 Also remember the year before that we had zero snow from November (after
 the Halloween storm) until March.
 Actually even last year we didn't have any snow until the blizzard the
 first week of February.
 Snowmobilers tend to remember snow patterns...
 -Curt
   From: dseretakis--- via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
  To: arche...@embarqmail.com arche...@embarqmail.com; Mercedes
 Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
  Sent: Friday, March 6, 2015 3:27 AM
  Subject: Re: [MBZ] Global warming? No, Global ice age.

 I'm no climatologist, but in light of the past couple of winters, I simply
 cannot buy global warming.
 Nobody is going to convince me that red is green or that cold is hot.
 Sent from my iPhone

  On Mar 5, 2015, at 7:04 PM, archer75--- via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:
 
 
  The “brutal” winter is on the attack again, bringing sleet and heavy
 snow to the mid-Atlantic region. Previous storms targeted the deep south
 including Dallas, Texas, and several hammered New England. By March 4,
 Boston was just 2 inches away from hitting an all-time record for snow,
 Boston.com reported.
 
  It’s a reality more in keeping with media warnings from the 1970s than
 today’s arguments about global warming.
 
  Then, CBS anchor Walter Cronkite, the dean of American journalism, was
 warning about an ice age. Cronkite cited scientific claims that the Earth
 was cooling and the full extent of the new ice age won't be reached for
 10,000 years.
 
  That's completely different from the media's line today that global
 warming is settled sciencesnip
 
 
 http://newsbusters.org/blogs/julia-seymour/2015/03/05/and-thats-way-it-was-1972-cronkite-warned-new-ice-age
 
  Makes sense, doesn't it?
  Gerry
 
 
 
  ___
  http://www.okiebenz.com
 
  To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
 
  To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
  http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
 
  All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those
 individuals are responsible for the content of the post.  The list owner
 has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.



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Re: [MBZ] Global warming? No, Global ice age.

[Mike Esh via Mercedes]

John Coleman says no to human induced global warming!

http://conservativepost.com/80-yr-old-weather-channel-founder-explains-the-history-of-the-global-warming-fraud/

Michael E. Esh
me...@horizonenv.com
michael...@mac.com
http://www.yugster.com/invite/138123
(C) 231.286.2344


On Mar 06, 2015, at 12:41 AM, Curly McLain via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com 
wrote:


The brutal winter is on the attack again, bringing sleet and heavy
snow to the mid-Atlantic region. Previous storms targeted the deep
south including Dallas, Texas, and several hammered New England. By
March 4, Boston was just 2 inches away from hitting an all-time
record for snow, Boston.com reported.

It's a reality more in keeping with media warnings from the 1970s
than today's arguments about global warming.

Then, CBS anchor Walter Cronkite, the dean of American journalism,
was warning about an ice age. Cronkite cited scientific claims
that the Earth was cooling and the full extent of the new ice age
won't be reached for 10,000 years.

That's completely different from the media's line today that global
warming is settled sciencesnip

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/julia-seymour/2015/03/05/and-thats-way-it-was-1972-cronkite-warned-new-ice-age
 


Makes sense, doesn't it?
Gerry



And Walter stole it from Popular Science. It was a cover story there
first. It was a great magazine back then. In the 70s when the 3
BS stations had a news story about new products or technology, I
had read it usually a year or more earlier in Popular Science.

___
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Re: [MBZ] Global warming? No, Global ice age.

[dseretakis--- via Mercedes]

10,000 years ago we were 1 mile deep in ice. That all melted. Perhaps the 
melting is still going on progressing now to the ice caps? 



Sent from my iPhone

 On Mar 6, 2015, at 11:26 AM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:
 
 If Boston were having another mild winter and the polar regions were frigid
 as usual, we wouldn't be having this conversation.  The concern is that
 warming of the polar regions is causing the ice caps to melt and sea level
 to relentlessly rise, all because of growing CO2 emissions from industrial
 sources world wide.
 
 On Fri, Mar 6, 2015 at 10:33 AM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:
 
 New England has had a cold winter with lots of snow, the pacific northwest
 has had a very warm winter and much of Minnesota has had essentially no
 snow. Last year while we had the polar vortex it was one of the warmest
 winters on record for much of the rest of the world.
 Also remember the year before that we had zero snow from November (after
 the Halloween storm) until March.
 Actually even last year we didn't have any snow until the blizzard the
 first week of February.
 Snowmobilers tend to remember snow patterns...
 -Curt
  From: dseretakis--- via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
 To: arche...@embarqmail.com arche...@embarqmail.com; Mercedes
 Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
 Sent: Friday, March 6, 2015 3:27 AM
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] Global warming? No, Global ice age.
 
 I'm no climatologist, but in light of the past couple of winters, I simply
 cannot buy global warming.
 Nobody is going to convince me that red is green or that cold is hot.
 Sent from my iPhone
 
 On Mar 5, 2015, at 7:04 PM, archer75--- via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:
 
 
 The “brutal” winter is on the attack again, bringing sleet and heavy
 snow to the mid-Atlantic region. Previous storms targeted the deep south
 including Dallas, Texas, and several hammered New England. By March 4,
 Boston was just 2 inches away from hitting an all-time record for snow,
 Boston.com reported.
 
 It’s a reality more in keeping with media warnings from the 1970s than
 today’s arguments about global warming.
 
 Then, CBS anchor Walter Cronkite, the dean of American journalism, was
 warning about an ice age. Cronkite cited scientific claims that the Earth
 was cooling and the full extent of the new ice age won't be reached for
 10,000 years.
 
 That's completely different from the media's line today that global
 warming is settled sciencesnip
 http://newsbusters.org/blogs/julia-seymour/2015/03/05/and-thats-way-it-was-1972-cronkite-warned-new-ice-age
 
 Makes sense, doesn't it?
 Gerry
 
 
 
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Re: [MBZ] Global warming? No, Global ice age.

[Scott Ritchey via Mercedes]

Yeahbut, There is no land under the north pole so it's just ice floating on 
water.  So even if it all melted it would not change sea level at all.  
Floating objects displace their own weight of water.  The ice shelf at the 
south pole (which is land) is increasing, which would make sea level go down.  

 -Original Message-
 From:  Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes
 Sent: Friday, March 06, 2015 11:27 AM
 
 If Boston were having another mild winter and the polar regions were frigid as
 usual, we wouldn't be having this conversation.  The concern is that warming
 of the polar regions is causing the ice caps to melt and sea level to 
 relentlessly
 rise, all because of growing CO2 emissions from industrial sources world wide.
 


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Re: [MBZ] Global warming? No, Global ice age.

[WILTON via Mercedes]

And melting the Greenland icecap'll make it go up.

Wilton

- Original Message - 
From: Scott Ritchey via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com

To: 'Mercedes Discussion List' mercedes@okiebenz.com
Sent: Friday, March 06, 2015 4:16 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Global warming? No, Global ice age.


Yeahbut, There is no land under the north pole so it's just ice floating 
on water.  So even if it all melted it would not change sea level at all. 
Floating objects displace their own weight of water.  The ice shelf at the 
south pole (which is land) is increasing, which would make sea level go 
down.



-Original Message-
From:  Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes
Sent: Friday, March 06, 2015 11:27 AM

If Boston were having another mild winter and the polar regions were 
frigid as
usual, we wouldn't be having this conversation.  The concern is that 
warming
of the polar regions is causing the ice caps to melt and sea level to 
relentlessly
rise, all because of growing CO2 emissions from industrial sources world 
wide.





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has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor. 



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Re: [MBZ] Global warming? No, Global ice age.

[dseretakis--- via Mercedes]

I'm no climatologist, but in light of the past couple of winters, I simply 
cannot buy global warming. 
Nobody is going to convince me that red is green or that cold is hot. 
Sent from my iPhone

 On Mar 5, 2015, at 7:04 PM, archer75--- via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com 
 wrote:
 
 
 The “brutal” winter is on the attack again, bringing sleet and heavy snow to 
 the mid-Atlantic region. Previous storms targeted the deep south including 
 Dallas, Texas, and several hammered New England. By March 4, Boston was just 
 2 inches away from hitting an all-time record for snow, Boston.com reported.
 
 It’s a reality more in keeping with media warnings from the 1970s than 
 today’s arguments about global warming. 
 
 Then, CBS anchor Walter Cronkite, the dean of American journalism, was 
 warning about an ice age. Cronkite cited scientific claims that the Earth 
 was cooling and the full extent of the new ice age won't be reached for 
 10,000 years. 
 
 That's completely different from the media's line today that global warming 
 is settled sciencesnip
 
 http://newsbusters.org/blogs/julia-seymour/2015/03/05/and-thats-way-it-was-1972-cronkite-warned-new-ice-age
 
 Makes sense, doesn't it?
 Gerry
 
 
 
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[MBZ] Global warming? No, Global ice age.

[archer75--- via Mercedes]

The “brutal” winter is on the attack again, bringing sleet and heavy snow to 
the mid-Atlantic region. Previous storms targeted the deep south including 
Dallas, Texas, and several hammered New England. By March 4, Boston was just 2 
inches away from hitting an all-time record for snow, Boston.com reported.

It’s a reality more in keeping with media warnings from the 1970s than today’s 
arguments about global warming. 

Then, CBS anchor Walter Cronkite, the dean of American journalism, was warning 
about an ice age. Cronkite cited scientific claims that the Earth was cooling 
and the full extent of the new ice age won't be reached for 10,000 years. 

That's completely different from the media's line today that global warming is 
settled sciencesnip

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/julia-seymour/2015/03/05/and-thats-way-it-was-1972-cronkite-warned-new-ice-age

Makes sense, doesn't it?
Gerry



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Re: [MBZ] Global warming? No, Global ice age.

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

Hey guess what - UT and ID are having a record warm winter with way too
little snow.  It all balances out.

On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 7:04 PM, archer75--- via Mercedes 
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:


 The “brutal” winter is on the attack again, bringing sleet and heavy snow
 to the mid-Atlantic region. Previous storms targeted the deep south
 including Dallas, Texas, and several hammered New England. By March 4,
 Boston was just 2 inches away from hitting an all-time record for snow,
 Boston.com reported.

 It’s a reality more in keeping with media warnings from the 1970s than
 today’s arguments about global warming.

 Then, CBS anchor Walter Cronkite, the dean of American journalism, was
 warning about an ice age. Cronkite cited scientific claims that the Earth
 was cooling and the full extent of the new ice age won't be reached for
 10,000 years.

 That's completely different from the media's line today that global
 warming is settled sciencesnip


 http://newsbusters.org/blogs/julia-seymour/2015/03/05/and-thats-way-it-was-1972-cronkite-warned-new-ice-age

 Makes sense, doesn't it?
 Gerry



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Re: [MBZ] Global warming? No, Global ice age.

[Curly McLain via Mercedes]

The brutal winter is on the attack again, bringing sleet and heavy 
snow to the mid-Atlantic region. Previous storms targeted the deep 
south including Dallas, Texas, and several hammered New England. By 
March 4, Boston was just 2 inches away from hitting an all-time 
record for snow, Boston.com reported.


It's a reality more in keeping with media warnings from the 1970s 
than today's arguments about global warming.


Then, CBS anchor Walter Cronkite, the dean of American journalism, 
was warning about an ice age. Cronkite cited scientific claims 
that the Earth was cooling and the full extent of the new ice age 
won't be reached for 10,000 years.


That's completely different from the media's line today that global 
warming is settled sciencesnip


http://newsbusters.org/blogs/julia-seymour/2015/03/05/and-thats-way-it-was-1972-cronkite-warned-new-ice-age

Makes sense, doesn't it?
Gerry



And Walter stole it from Popular Science.  It was a cover story there 
first.  It was a great magazine back then.  In the 70s when the 3 
BS stations had a news story about new products or technology, I 
had read it usually a year or more earlier in Popular Science.


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Re: [MBZ] Global warming? No, Global ice age.

[Curly McLain via Mercedes]

The brutal winter is on the attack again, bringing sleet and heavy 
snow to the mid-Atlantic region. Previous storms targeted the deep 
south including Dallas, Texas, and several hammered New England. By 
March 4, Boston was just 2 inches away from hitting an all-time 
record for snow, Boston.com reported.


It's a reality more in keeping with media warnings from the 1970s 
than today's arguments about global warming.


Then, CBS anchor Walter Cronkite, the dean of American journalism, 
was warning about an ice age. Cronkite cited scientific claims 
that the Earth was cooling and the full extent of the new ice age 
won't be reached for 10,000 years.


That's completely different from the media's line today that global 
warming is settled sciencesnip


http://newsbusters.org/blogs/julia-seymour/2015/03/05/and-thats-way-it-was-1972-cronkite-warned-new-ice-age

Makes sense, doesn't it?
Gerry



And Walter stole it from Popular Science.  It was a cover story there 
first.  It was a great magazine back then.  In the 70s when the 3 
BS stations had a news story about new products or technology, I 
had read it usually a year or more earlier in Popular Science.


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Re: [MBZ] global warming

[Curt Raymond]

I'm not opposed to waste oil burners, I'm opposed to waste oil burners done 
poorly and it appears to me that MOST are done poorly...

When I see a car with a waste oil system I deduct from its value 10-20%.

-Curt

Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2011 20:09:35 -0500
From: Mike Esh michael...@me.com
To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
Subject: Re: [MBZ] global warming
Message-ID: f11ffb6e-ca12-4c48-8c0f-ff86ed4b6...@me.com
Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII

And let's not forget about the waste vegetable oil users.  A small percentage 
of the whole and if done correctly, a safe and effective way reduce carbon 
emissions.  It has also reduced my fuel expense by 75% over the last 3 years.  
60,000 miles / 20 mpg * $3.50 per gallon = $10,500.  Minus investment of $3,000 
and cost to produce of 10 cents per gallon.  The only trouble I am having with 
vehicle is the hvac!
Sincerely,
Mike

Michael E. Esh

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Re: [MBZ] global warming

[Mike Esh]

I agree.


Michael E. Esh


On Dec 7, 2011, at 10:12 AM, Curt Raymond curtlud...@yahoo.com wrote:

 I'm not opposed to waste oil burners, I'm opposed to waste oil burners done 
 poorly and it appears to me that MOST are done poorly...
 
 When I see a car with a waste oil system I deduct from its value 10-20%.
 
 -Curt
 
 Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2011 20:09:35 -0500
 From: Mike Esh michael...@me.com
 To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] global warming
 Message-ID: f11ffb6e-ca12-4c48-8c0f-ff86ed4b6...@me.com
 Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII
 
 And let's not forget about the waste vegetable oil users.  A small percentage 
 of the whole and if done correctly, a safe and effective way reduce carbon 
 emissions.  It has also reduced my fuel expense by 75% over the last 3 years. 
  60,000 miles / 20 mpg * $3.50 per gallon = $10,500.  Minus investment of 
 $3,000 and cost to produce of 10 cents per gallon.  The only trouble I am 
 having with vehicle is the hvac!
 Sincerely,
 Mike
 
 Michael E. Esh
 
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Re: [MBZ] global warming

[clay monroe]

I like the depolimerization 
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_depolymerization] process for providing 
solutions to feedstock and recycling/reuse of our waste streams.

Right now we have to sort and wash and jump through hoops to get our waste on 
the street corner for pick up.  Long lists of what can not be allowed in the 
green stream.  If we could just dump it all into a single source that would 
harvest the more profitable fluff (cans, paper, food waste, glass, pretty 
plastic) and send the rest to a processing plant to break it down, we would be 
ahead of the game.  No need for the consumer to think excessively about wasting 
water to clean out each and every container.  Reduce time spend on examining 
which of the many symbols your plastic is, and the dang window glass could go 
into the stream as cullet, thereby reducing the energy cost to make more glass.

Seattle sends mile long trains south to bury our garbage.  Waste of space, 
fuel and time that is better spent turning the waste into fuel, energy, and 
carbon black or precious metals.  No more piles of tires waiting to combust in 
the summer heat, while breeding voracious swarms of malarial mosquitos.  
Reclaimed petrochemicals from the poly this and that resting in shopping bags 
that will not be filling the guts of whales and fish, strangling gulls and 
otters.  Waste fluids from paint and beauty products, as well as gallons of 
caffeinated urine flowing into algae vats instead of streams and bays.





clay 

1972 220D - Gump - She is green, simple and ran
1995 E300D - Cleo - Used by the Queen of Denial
POS 1987 SDL - Beware Nigerian Scammers






On Dec 6, 2011, at 7:10 PM, Dieselhead wrote:

 Grant wrote:
 As it happens, I designed, built, and got certified, the largest capacity
 Bio-Diesel commercial plant is USA [at the 2007 time frame] with a design
 capacity of 20,000,000 gallon per month capacity.  So it can be said, I
  speak the Bio-Diesel language.
 
 What was the feedstock?  Only thing I can think of in that capacity is 
 perhaps soy oil.  If all the yellow grease in the country was sent to this 
 plant, as near as I can determine it would only run this plant 2 months.
 
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Re: [MBZ] global warming

[Scott and Gwen Ritchey]

Thanks for Grant's good info.  

I asked about biodiesel in part because this started as the Mercedes Diesel
list, in part because the North America is still pretty good a growing
stuff, and in part because I doubt we'll ever do better than carbon-neutral.
Also, because current ultra-lo sulfur Diesel has poor lubricating properties
and even a little bio (like 2%) is a great way to improve lubricity so even
the petro industry can get something out of this. 

I still don't understand the economics, but it seems to me that the main
barrier is that bio is more of a grass-roots thing doesn't fit the business
model and mindset (big expensive refineries, big expensive wells,  big
expensive ships, big expensive pipelines, etc.) of the energy sector.  So
energy executives could never get multi-million bonuses from low-budget
operations, like scavenging waste oil or many small farms growing different
indigenous oily vegetables.  Or maybe it's a knee-jerk reaction to the dumb
ethanol policies.

Scott

-Original Message-
From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com]
On Behalf Of G Mann
Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 8:22 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] global warming

There is plenty of vegetable oil in the world. Palm oil is one that's
available in the billions of gallons in nature [think palm trees in third
world countries]. The issue is how do you collect and process it to bring
it to market in USA or Europe.  Same issues for every other veg oil. The
support infrastructure simply hasn't been built yet to feed large scale
production in the billions of gallons yet.

ASTM 6751- XX [the latest - #] spec Bio-Diesel requires no engine
modifications to run. It goes from the pump to the end use anywhere
Dino-Diesel is used [with some adjustment for gell point]. That is on the
plus side.

On the negative side. There is not yet enough of it to make much of a
splash in the market place. Trucking uses fuel in the millions of gallons
per day.. Airlines also... some airliners are being flown with Bio-Diesel
on a test basis... the military is also using it and has put out
contracts for supply.

Ethanol, on the other hand, does require engine management system
modification to run properly, produces less BTU than gasoline [so you need
more gallons to make miles]. The return on energy vs BTU is still
marginal... without government money, every Ethanol plant would close in a
month.  That said.. it's problems are being worked.. in time perhaps,
success.

Grant...
AZ...

On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 5:08 PM, Curt Raymond curtlud...@yahoo.com wrote:

 Several, the answers generally reflecting who funded the study.

 The studies done by big oil or the hater groups say bio-d is terrible and
 uses as much energy as it brings in. They'll study using soy oil grown in
 the desert with intensive irrigation using deep well pumps and plowed
 fields. They'll include factors like recovering sediment that runs off
 after they plow or over-water and they'll assume the left over  stuff
after
 they're done is thrown away.

 The bio-d lovers will extract oil from used coffee beans or assume used
 oil can be collected in greater volume than actually exists and assume it
 isn't used for any other purpose...

 I figure the reality is somewhere in between, bio-d has a use and can fill
 a small need. It isn't a silver bullet but a piece of the pie.

 I've read promising sounding results from both extracting oil from coffee
 grounds left over from large coffee-drink production and from algae.
 Neither is a perfect solution but the results sound hopeful.

 -Curt

 Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 12:05:29 -0500
 From: Scott and Gwen Ritchey ritche...@nc.rr.com
 To: 'Mercedes Discussion List' mercedes@okiebenz.com
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] global warming
 Message-ID: 76D8FB99810F4D1DB7641B6D9C0FE6CC@ScottPC
 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii


 Has anyone read an analysis of how bio-Diesel stacks up?  Economically?
 Energy efficiency (BTU to produce vs BTU produced)?  Comparison to other
 solar methods?


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Re: [MBZ] global warming

[Scott and Gwen Ritchey]

Hear, hear!  Don't know about the specifics, but waste management is the
flip side of the raw materials problem and (despite decades of recycling
talk) it seems like we are still in the collect and bury mode.

-Original Message-
From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com]
On Behalf Of clay monroe
Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2011 12:33 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] global warming

I like the depolimerization
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_depolymerization] process for
providing solutions to feedstock and recycling/reuse of our waste streams.

Right now we have to sort and wash and jump through hoops to get our waste
on the street corner for pick up.  Long lists of what can not be allowed in
the green stream.  If we could just dump it all into a single source that
would harvest the more profitable fluff (cans, paper, food waste, glass,
pretty plastic) and send the rest to a processing plant to break it down, we
would be ahead of the game.  No need for the consumer to think excessively
about wasting water to clean out each and every container.  Reduce time
spend on examining which of the many symbols your plastic is, and the dang
window glass could go into the stream as cullet, thereby reducing the energy
cost to make more glass.

Seattle sends mile long trains south to bury our garbage.  Waste of space,
fuel and time that is better spent turning the waste into fuel, energy, and
carbon black or precious metals.  No more piles of tires waiting to combust
in the summer heat, while breeding voracious swarms of malarial mosquitos.
Reclaimed petrochemicals from the poly this and that resting in shopping
bags that will not be filling the guts of whales and fish, strangling gulls
and otters.  Waste fluids from paint and beauty products, as well as gallons
of caffeinated urine flowing into algae vats instead of streams and bays.





clay 

1972 220D - Gump - She is green, simple and ran
1995 E300D - Cleo - Used by the Queen of Denial
POS 1987 SDL - Beware Nigerian Scammers






On Dec 6, 2011, at 7:10 PM, Dieselhead wrote:

 Grant wrote:
 As it happens, I designed, built, and got certified, the largest
capacity
 Bio-Diesel commercial plant is USA [at the 2007 time frame] with a
design
 capacity of 20,000,000 gallon per month capacity.  So it can be said, I
  speak the Bio-Diesel language.
 
 What was the feedstock?  Only thing I can think of in that capacity is
perhaps soy oil.  If all the yellow grease in the country was sent to this
plant, as near as I can determine it would only run this plant 2 months.
 
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Re: [MBZ] global warming

[Mountain Man]

Dimitri wrote:
 I use biodiesel here and there in varying concentrations up to 100%. I've 
 been using it for years. I never once had a problem with the stuff. I'd use 
 it a lot more if I had a conveniently located filling station!


Yep - the only fuel available here at the truck stop is 11 or 20 percent.
Why is it that the diesel fuel conditioner anti-gel requires twice the
recommended dose for bio-diesel?
The anti-gel gets expensive at that dosing.
mao

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Re: [MBZ] global warming

[Mitch Haley]

Mountain Man wrote:


Yep - the only fuel available here at the truck stop is 11 or 20 percent.
Why is it that the diesel fuel conditioner anti-gel requires twice the
recommended dose for bio-diesel?
The anti-gel gets expensive at that dosing.


Because Bio-D, especially Soy-D, has a much higher pour point than D2.

Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] global warming

[Mountain Man]

Mitch wrote:
 Because Bio-D, especially Soy-D, has a much higher pour point than D2.

It seems the maker should reformulate since most diesel is bio today.
mao

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Re: [MBZ] global warming

[Dimitri Seretakis]

Huh? Most diesel is biodiesel today? I wish!

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 7, 2011, at 7:57 PM, Mountain Man maontin@gmail.com wrote:

Mitch wrote:
Because Bio-D, especially Soy-D, has a much higher pour point than D2.

It seems the maker should reformulate since most diesel is bio today.
mao

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Re: [MBZ] global warming

[Hans Neureiter]

This tread is going to make it. i.e longest and mainly:
most useless.
Never seen that much extensive and ignorant reading material.

Go to Alaska, live in your igloo, live on baby seals and call me on your
i-phone

I still think that topping of your oil with recycled petroleum waste (Dino
oil) and changing filters every 100k miles is more greener.

BTW: we are between the last and the next Ice Age.
Hans Neureiter, Katy, TX
'82 300SD
'01 VW New Beetle 1.9L TDI
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Re: [MBZ] global warming

[Peter Frederick]

With bio-diesel you are stuck with whatever fatty acids are present  
in the parent oil.  Bio-D is really methyl or ethyl esters of fatty  
acids (the ethyl or methyl group replaces the glycerol in the fat or  
oil), and they crystallize at much higher temps than diesel fuel.


If you start cracking it, you end up using so much energy it's too  
expensive to make.


Peter

On Dec 7, 2011, at 6:57 PM, Mountain Man wrote:


Mitch wrote:
Because Bio-D, especially Soy-D, has a much higher pour point than  
D2.


It seems the maker should reformulate since most diesel is bio today.
mao

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Re: [MBZ] global warming

[Allan Streib]

Mountain Man maontin@gmail.com writes:

 It seems the maker should reformulate since most diesel is bio today.

Not around here.  I think there is one place in the county that sells it
and it is B1 or B2 (1% or 2% bio, basically it's conventional diesel).

Allan
-- 
1983 300D
1979 300SD

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Re: [MBZ] global warming

[Dieselhead]

With bio-diesel you are stuck with whatever 
fatty acids are present in the parent oil. 
Bio-D is really methyl or ethyl esters of fatty 
acids (the ethyl or methyl group replaces the 
glycerol in the fat or oil), and they 
crystallize at much higher temps than diesel 
fuel.



Peter

As a rule of thumb, the further north the plant 
was grown, the lower the cloud point of the 
resultant BioD.


Animal fats and tropical oils (palm) are the 
worst. then cottonseed, and peanut, then soy, 
then sunflower and then things like camolina and 
canadian canola.  We know a guy who grows 
sunflowers in Northern WI, and runs his homemade 
BioD at 100% until it gets below 0º F.  That is 
pretty good for homemade BioD with no additive. 
(German Design engine IH tractors  -66 and -86 
series)


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Re: [MBZ] global warming

[Dimitri Seretakis]

I remember a cold morning years ago when I poured a clouded up slurry of 
biodiesel into my 220D. The thing ran just fine!  

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 7, 2011, at 10:04 PM, Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com wrote:

With bio-diesel you are stuck with whatever fatty acids are present in the 
parent oil. Bio-D is really methyl or ethyl esters of fatty acids (the ethyl or 
methyl group replaces the glycerol in the fat or oil), and they crystallize at 
much higher temps than diesel fuel.

Peter

As a rule of thumb, the further north the plant was grown, the lower the cloud 
point of the resultant BioD.

Animal fats and tropical oils (palm) are the worst. then cottonseed, and 
peanut, then soy, then sunflower and then things like camolina and canadian 
canola.  We know a guy who grows sunflowers in Northern WI, and runs his 
homemade BioD at 100% until it gets below 0º F.  That is pretty good for 
homemade BioD with no additive. (German Design engine IH tractors  -66 and -86 
series)

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Re: [MBZ] global warming

[Scott and Gwen Ritchey]

Has anyone read an analysis of how bio-Diesel stacks up?  Economically?
Energy efficiency (BTU to produce vs BTU produced)?  Comparison to other
solar methods?


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Re: [MBZ] global warming

[G Mann]

Very complex question. Bio-Diesel can be made from almost any vegetable
oil, and all vegetables have oil. Each vegetable oil source has a different
energy cost to cultivate, harvest, and rate of return [ie. pounds of oil v
pounds of plant product]. Cost to produce feed stock oil for one vegetable
oil type can vary widely compared to another. Many factors come into play
in setting that price/cost ratio.

The actual trans-esterfication process is a chemical refining process in
large part and quite efficient if done with good controls on a commercial
scale.

BTU per pound of ASTM Spec, Bio-Diesel is closely on par with BTU per pound
of Dino-Diesel, unlike the gasoline/ethanol yield energy ratio.

Comparison with solar methods?  Not an apples to apples comparison.  Two
different sides of the alternate energy basket.  Solar to electric power
vs Bio-Diesel to BTU doesn't translate.  [or maybe I slept through that
class in college]

As it happens, I designed, built, and got certified, the largest capacity
Bio-Diesel commercial plant is USA [at the 2007 time frame] with a design
capacity of 20,000,000 gallon per month capacity.  So it can be said, I
speak the Bio-Diesel language.

Grant...
AZ Where diesels roam free



On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 10:05 AM, Scott and Gwen Ritchey ritche...@nc.rr.com
 wrote:


 Has anyone read an analysis of how bio-Diesel stacks up?  Economically?
 Energy efficiency (BTU to produce vs BTU produced)?  Comparison to other
 solar methods?


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Re: [MBZ] global warming

[Allan Streib]

G Mann g2ma...@gmail.com writes:

 Comparison with solar methods?  Not an apples to apples comparison.  Two
 different sides of the alternate energy basket.  Solar to electric power
 vs Bio-Diesel to BTU doesn't translate.  [or maybe I slept through that
 class in college]

I think in a sense that the vegetable/plant material gets it's energy
from the sun, you can view Bio-Diesel as an indirect solar fuel.  But
in that sense almost everything is, except nuclear and geothermal.

Allan

-- 
1983 300D
1979 300SD

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Re: [MBZ] global warming

[Gerry Archer]

As a pragmatist, when someone says we should eliminate man-made earth 
and air pollution because it causes global warming I ask them how..

How do we persuade the power companies that have built, or are building,
something like 30 dirty coal-fired power plants in the U.S. over the past 
several years to tear down those plants or install expensive scrubbers?
How do we persuade the Chinese to do the same?
How do we persuade worldwide industry to spend trillions of dollars in the
prevention of their pollution?
How do we persuade the commercial transportation industry and auto industry
to switch to non-polluting sources of energy? 
and on and on.

Obviously no one has conclusive proof one way or the other about global 
warming and its causes, so the first thing to do is to determine how its
elimination can be accomplished if that is proven to become necessary.

Otherwise the discussion is moot.

Gerry.who has solved his own pollution problems with charcoal and HEPA
filters


G Mann g2ma...@gmail.com writes:
 Comparison with solar methods?  Not an apples to apples comparison.  Two
 different sides of the alternate energy basket.  Solar to electric power
 vs Bio-Diesel to BTU doesn't translate.  [or maybe I slept through that
 class in college]
 
 I think in a sense that the vegetable/plant material gets it's energy
 from the sun, you can view Bio-Diesel as an indirect solar fuel.  But
 in that sense almost everything is, except nuclear and geothermal.
 Allan
 1983 300D
 1979 300SD
Date: 12/06/11 
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Re: [MBZ] global warming

[Curt Raymond]

Several, the answers generally reflecting who funded the study.

The studies done by big oil or the hater groups say bio-d is terrible and uses 
as much energy as it brings in. They'll study using soy oil grown in the desert 
with intensive irrigation using deep well pumps and plowed fields. They'll 
include factors like recovering sediment that runs off after they plow or 
over-water and they'll assume the left over  stuff after they're done is thrown 
away.

The bio-d lovers will extract oil from used coffee beans or assume used oil can 
be collected in greater volume than actually exists and assume it isn't used 
for any other purpose...

I figure the reality is somewhere in between, bio-d has a use and can fill a 
small need. It isn't a silver bullet but a piece of the pie. 

I've read promising sounding results from both extracting oil from coffee 
grounds left over from large coffee-drink production and from algae. Neither is 
a perfect solution but the results sound hopeful.

-Curt

Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 12:05:29 -0500
From: Scott and Gwen Ritchey ritche...@nc.rr.com
To: 'Mercedes Discussion List' mercedes@okiebenz.com
Subject: Re: [MBZ] global warming
Message-ID: 76D8FB99810F4D1DB7641B6D9C0FE6CC@ScottPC
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii


Has anyone read an analysis of how bio-Diesel stacks up?  Economically?
Energy efficiency (BTU to produce vs BTU produced)?  Comparison to other
solar methods?


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Re: [MBZ] global warming

[Curt Raymond]

Its cool to read somebody who knows something about it when they say its 
complicated.

The interesting thing in this is seeing folks make bio-d out of regionally 
available sources rather than just growing soy... I'd like to see the same 
thing with ethanol like how they use sugar cane in Brazil. Sugar beets grow 
well in northern Maine, theres lots of fallow farmland in northern Maine, it'd 
be nice to see ethanol made from sugar beets...

-Curt

Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 10:57:22 -0700
From: G Mann g2ma...@gmail.com
To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
Subject: Re: [MBZ] global warming
Message-ID:
CANTuLYga_FsR2DOF+pMg7px5Mb3jN=6oyvfyrjvjza-bbuk...@mail.gmail.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Very complex question. Bio-Diesel can be made from almost any vegetable
oil, and all vegetables have oil. Each vegetable oil source has a different
energy cost to cultivate, harvest, and rate of return [ie. pounds of oil v
pounds of plant product]. Cost to produce feed stock oil for one vegetable
oil type can vary widely compared to another. Many factors come into play
in setting that price/cost ratio.

The actual trans-esterfication process is a chemical refining process in
large part and quite efficient if done with good controls on a commercial
scale.

BTU per pound of ASTM Spec, Bio-Diesel is closely on par with BTU per pound
of Dino-Diesel, unlike the gasoline/ethanol yield energy ratio.

Comparison with solar methods?  Not an apples to apples comparison.  Two
different sides of the alternate energy basket.  Solar to electric power
vs Bio-Diesel to BTU doesn't translate.  [or maybe I slept through that
class in college]

As it happens, I designed, built, and got certified, the largest capacity
Bio-Diesel commercial plant is USA [at the 2007 time frame] with a design
capacity of 20,000,000 gallon per month capacity.  So it can be said, I
speak the Bio-Diesel language.

Grant...
AZ Where diesels roam free


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