Re: [MBZ] big oil dying (again)

[Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes]

The article actually covers revisionists of various political types. Of
course people in more populous states will tend to feel put out by the
Senate. But the fundamental changes in population distribution since the
document was written are rather profound, as the piece states.

I rather enjoyed his conversation with Orrin Hatch.

On Jul 3, 2017 6:29 AM, "Mitch Haley via Mercedes" 
wrote:


> On July 3, 2017 at 9:09 AM Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>
> FYI since the constutution's relevance to government subsidies came up, an
> interesting article Toobin wrote back in 2013. Interesting to read today:
>
> http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/12/09/our-broken-constitution

So, a professor at a rather progressive school of law concluded that a
document which established a constitutional republic, in order to prevent
the tyranny of the majority found in a democracy, was not democratic enough
for his tastes?

My response would be that people like him were the reason it was set up the
way it is.

Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] big oil dying (again)

[Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes]

The NIH question is germane to the central discussion of whether the
government should fund research on anything not expressly laid out in the
constitution, e.g. solar power, and why or why not.

On Jul 3, 2017 6:19 AM, "Curley McLain via Mercedes" 
wrote:

who started the tangent with NIH funding?

Paraphrasing Winston Churchill:   those who, in their youth, are not
liberal, have no heart.   Those who, in maturity, are not conservative,
have no brain


Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes wrote:

> Public support for solar energy is at least tangentially related to diesel
> cars as a putative alternative. Oaths of office and marriage vows are
> pretty far afield.
>


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Re: [MBZ] big oil dying (again)

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

> On July 3, 2017 at 9:09 AM Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> FYI since the constutution's relevance to government subsidies came up, an
> interesting article Toobin wrote back in 2013. Interesting to read today:
> 
> http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/12/09/our-broken-constitution

So, a professor at a rather progressive school of law concluded that a document 
which established a constitutional republic, in order to prevent the tyranny of 
the majority found in a democracy, was not democratic enough for his tastes?

My response would be that people like him were the reason it was set up the way 
it is. 

Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] big oil dying (again)

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

who started the tangent with NIH funding?

Paraphrasing Winston Churchill:   those who, in their youth, are not 
liberal, have no heart.   Those who, in maturity, are not conservative, 
have no brain


Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes wrote:

Public support for solar energy is at least tangentially related to diesel
cars as a putative alternative. Oaths of office and marriage vows are
pretty far afield.



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Re: [MBZ] big oil dying (again)

[Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes]

Public support for solar energy is at least tangentially related to diesel
cars as a putative alternative. Oaths of office and marriage vows are
pretty far afield.

FYI since the constutution's relevance to government subsidies came up, an
interesting article Toobin wrote back in 2013. Interesting to read today:

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/12/09/our-
broken-constitution?mbid=nl__not_daily&CNDID=9491905&mbid=
nl_Sunday%20Longreads%20(33)%20remainder&CNDID=9491905&
spMailingID=11390929&spUserID=MTMzMTg1NTgyODk3S0&spJobID=
1200148800&spReportId=MTIwMDE0ODgwMAS2

On Jul 2, 2017 9:16 PM, "Scott Ritchey via Mercedes" 
wrote:

Absolutely.  Every federal officer has sworn to support and defend that
18th century document.  Of course some people aren't serious about oaths of
office ,or marriage vows for that matter.

> -Original Message-
> From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Karl
> Wittnebel via Mercedes
> Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2017 6:03 AM
> To: mercedes@okiebenz com 
> Cc: Karl Wittnebel 
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] big oil dying (again)
>
> Let me get this straight. You are saying the NIH should not be funding
> biomedical research, because of a document written in the 18th century?
>
> On Jul 1, 2017 1:56 AM, "Curley McLain via Mercedes"
> 
> wrote:
>
> Please quote to me the part of the constitution that empowers the federal
> goobermnt to do this?
>
>
> Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes wrote:
>
> > The federal government spends money on lots of things that are not
> > immediately profitable. That is pretty much the role of the government.
> >
> All powers not specifically granted in the Constitution, are reserved by
the
> Citizens, or are granted by the Citizens to their State, County or City.
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] big oil dying (again)

[Scott Ritchey via Mercedes]

Absolutely.  Every federal officer has sworn to support and defend that 18th 
century document.  Of course some people aren't serious about oaths of office 
,or marriage vows for that matter.

> -Original Message-
> From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Karl
> Wittnebel via Mercedes
> Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2017 6:03 AM
> To: mercedes@okiebenz com 
> Cc: Karl Wittnebel 
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] big oil dying (again)
> 
> Let me get this straight. You are saying the NIH should not be funding
> biomedical research, because of a document written in the 18th century?
> 
> On Jul 1, 2017 1:56 AM, "Curley McLain via Mercedes"
> 
> wrote:
> 
> Please quote to me the part of the constitution that empowers the federal
> goobermnt to do this?
> 
> 
> Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes wrote:
> 
> > The federal government spends money on lots of things that are not
> > immediately profitable. That is pretty much the role of the government.
> >
> All powers not specifically granted in the Constitution, are reserved by the
> Citizens, or are granted by the Citizens to their State, County or City.
> 
> 
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Re: [MBZ] big oil dying (again)

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

Can I get an "AMEN?"


fmiser via Mercedes 
July 1, 2017 at 1:50 PM


Karl wrote:



Let me get this straight. You are saying the NIH should not be
funding biomedical research, because of a document written in
the 18th century?


YES!

No matter when it was written, it is a legally binding contract.
It CANNOT be ignored at the whim of anyone.

It includes provisions for how to change it should times change
and make portions irrelevant.  But in is mostly to manage humans -
and they are just as human today as they were when the Greek
cities began banding together.



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Re: [MBZ] big oil dying (again)

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

I see the reality.  Just drove by a huge concrete plant in the middle of 
nothing but fields.  Then I saw a driveway freshly cut into a field, 
them more of them. Soon dozens of these fields look like crop circles 
where they are going to plant hundreds of new wind turbines paid for 
with billions of dollars taken from taxpayers at gunpoint.  I think this 
is the MidAmerican project I spoke of earlier, where the CEO freely 
admitted it is all paid for by taxpayers.



Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
July 1, 2017 at 9:46 AM
"Curley" lives in the no. 1 wind power state. How come you're so
anti-renewable?


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Re: [MBZ] big oil dying (again)

[fmiser via Mercedes]

> > > Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes wrote:
> > >
> > > The federal government spends money on lots of things that
> > > are not immediately profitable. That is pretty much the role
> > > of the governmen

> > Curley wrote:
> > 
> > Please quote to me the part of the constitution that empowers
> > the federal goobermnt to do this?
> > 
> > "All powers not specifically granted in the Constitution, are
> >  reserved by the Citizens, or are granted by the Citizens to
> >  their State, County or City."

> Karl wrote:

> Let me get this straight. You are saying the NIH should not be
> funding biomedical research, because of a document written in
> the 18th century?

YES!

No matter when it was written, it is a legally binding contract.
It CANNOT be ignored at the whim of anyone.

It includes provisions for how to change it should times change
and make portions irrelevant.  But in is mostly to manage humans -
and they are just as human today as they were when the Greek
cities began banding together.

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Re: [MBZ] big oil dying (again)

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

"Curley" lives in the no. 1 wind power state.  How come you're so
anti-renewable?

On Sat, Jul 1, 2017 at 10:37 AM, Mountain Man via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Curley wrote:
> > Even the illegal drug market is distorted by goobers.
>
> More ECONOMICS... correction.
> The goobers OWN the illegal drug market... according to some
> conspiracy folk.  These days the History channel documentary is
> exposing this to the masses.  Interesting stuff that even back in to
> the 1950's that LSD was bought off the market by the goobers, then MJ,
> then cocaine.  Yes, Mena, AR plays really big - thank you Larry
> Nichols.  You can see the first two episodes of the documentary at
> history-dot-com but then need to sign in with your tv online supplier.
> No tv here so only episode 1 and episode 2 were viewed.  Can someone
> download episode 3 and episode 4 and email copy to me?  Title:
> America's War On Drugs
> Thanks.
> tin.man
>
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Re: [MBZ] big oil dying (again)

[Mountain Man via Mercedes]

Curley wrote:
> Even the illegal drug market is distorted by goobers.

More ECONOMICS... correction.
The goobers OWN the illegal drug market... according to some
conspiracy folk.  These days the History channel documentary is
exposing this to the masses.  Interesting stuff that even back in to
the 1950's that LSD was bought off the market by the goobers, then MJ,
then cocaine.  Yes, Mena, AR plays really big - thank you Larry
Nichols.  You can see the first two episodes of the documentary at
history-dot-com but then need to sign in with your tv online supplier.
No tv here so only episode 1 and episode 2 were viewed.  Can someone
download episode 3 and episode 4 and email copy to me?  Title:
America's War On Drugs
Thanks.
tin.man

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Re: [MBZ] big oil dying (again)

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

Curt Raymond 
July 1, 2017 at 8:03 AM
What part of the constitution instructs the government to collect data 
on your phone usage?

NONE!
What part authorizes Air Force 1? What part tells our government to 
have the largest military on the planet?
AH!  THERE you have hit one one of the few authorized powers of the 
federal Government!   It seems appropriate that the only country on the 
planet that people are dying to get into, legally or not, should have 
the biggest and best military on the planet.   And it is one of the 
legal powers of the federal government.


-Curt



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Re: [MBZ] big oil dying (again)

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

Oooh, can we apply that to military pork?
-Curt


  From: Meade Dillon via Mercedes 
 To: Mercedes Discussion List  
Cc: Meade Dillon 
 Sent: Saturday, July 1, 2017 7:56 AM
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] big oil dying (again)
   
Correct, they should not fund NIH, unless it can be done constitutionally
under the heading of national security / defense.

Anything other spending should probably require a national referendum vote
to approve the funding, which expires annually and requires another
national referendum vote to re-approve it.  THEN the taxpayers will be able
to decide if they want to spend their money on it or not.  Good ideas and
worthy causes will get funded.  Stupid pet projects (pork) will quickly
die.  Watch our national budget shrink by about 75% overnight!

-
Max
Charleston SC

On Sat, Jul 1, 2017 at 6:02 AM, Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Let me get this straight. You are saying the NIH should not be funding
> biomedical research, because of a document written in the 18th century?
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] big oil dying (again)

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

What part of the constitution instructs the government to collect data on your 
phone usage? What part authorizes Air Force 1? What part tells our government 
to have the largest military on the planet? If you want to talk about overreach 
talk about all of it.
-Curt


  From: Curley McLain via Mercedes 
 To: Mercedes Discussion List  
Cc: Curley McLain <126die...@gmail.com>
 Sent: Saturday, July 1, 2017 4:56 AM
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] big oil dying (again)
   
Please quote to me the part of the constitution that empowers the 
federal goobermnt to do this?

Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes wrote:
> The federal government spends money on lots of things that are not
> immediately profitable. That is pretty much the role of the government.
All powers not specifically granted in the Constitution, are reserved by 
the Citizens, or are granted by the Citizens to their State, County or City.

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Re: [MBZ] big oil dying (again)

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

Because the government NEVER does ANYTHING to prop up the oil industry right?
-Curt


  From: Curley McLain via Mercedes 
 To: Mercedes Discussion List  
Cc: Curley McLain <126die...@gmail.com>
 Sent: Saturday, July 1, 2017 2:09 AM
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] big oil dying (again)
   
Bzzt!  Solar and wind are NOT sustainable without the goobermnt robbing 
us to prop up wind and solar.

Curt Raymond via Mercedes wrote:
> Solar and wind are part of a sustainable mix and will make our non-renewable 
> energy sources last much longer but they aren't the whole answer.
> OTOH people who think "Drill baby drill" will solve all our problems are also 
> deluding themselves. As with most things the answer is in the middle. There 
> is no silver bullet.
>
> -Curt


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Re: [MBZ] big oil dying (again)

[Meade Dillon via Mercedes]

Correct, they should not fund NIH, unless it can be done constitutionally
under the heading of national security / defense.

Anything other spending should probably require a national referendum vote
to approve the funding, which expires annually and requires another
national referendum vote to re-approve it.  THEN the taxpayers will be able
to decide if they want to spend their money on it or not.  Good ideas and
worthy causes will get funded.  Stupid pet projects (pork) will quickly
die.  Watch our national budget shrink by about 75% overnight!

-
Max
Charleston SC

On Sat, Jul 1, 2017 at 6:02 AM, Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Let me get this straight. You are saying the NIH should not be funding
> biomedical research, because of a document written in the 18th century?
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] big oil dying (again)

[Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes]

Let me get this straight. You are saying the NIH should not be funding
biomedical research, because of a document written in the 18th century?

On Jul 1, 2017 1:56 AM, "Curley McLain via Mercedes" 
wrote:

Please quote to me the part of the constitution that empowers the federal
goobermnt to do this?


Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes wrote:

> The federal government spends money on lots of things that are not
> immediately profitable. That is pretty much the role of the government.
>
All powers not specifically granted in the Constitution, are reserved by
the Citizens, or are granted by the Citizens to their State, County or City.


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Re: [MBZ] big oil dying (again)

[Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes]

Yes, the point I am making is that it is proper for the government to
subsidize technology development.

On Jul 1, 2017 1:59 AM, "Curley McLain via Mercedes" 
wrote:

What 'lektrick car is on the market that is not subsidized or incentivized
by some gooberment?   You are making my point that it is NOT market forces
that are putting Lektrick cars on the market.

Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes 
> July 1, 2017 at 3:28 AM
>
> I think lithium batteries and better battery management software are the
> major difference now.
>

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Re: [MBZ] big oil dying (again)

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

What 'lektrick car is on the market that is not subsidized or 
incentivized by some gooberment?   You are making my point that it is 
NOT market forces that are putting Lektrick cars on the market.



Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes 
July 1, 2017 at 3:28 AM
I think lithium batteries and better battery management software are the
major difference now.


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Re: [MBZ] big oil dying (again)

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

Please quote to me the part of the constitution that empowers the 
federal goobermnt to do this?


Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes wrote:

The federal government spends money on lots of things that are not
immediately profitable. That is pretty much the role of the government.
All powers not specifically granted in the Constitution, are reserved by 
the Citizens, or are granted by the Citizens to their State, County or City.


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Re: [MBZ] big oil dying (again)

[Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes]

I think lithium batteries and better battery management software are the
major difference now.

On Jun 30, 2017 9:45 AM, "Meade Dillon via Mercedes" 
wrote:

> Andrew, I think there have been electric cars almost as long as there have
> been gasoline engine cars.  Google knows all.
>
> http://www.pbs.org/now/shows/223/electric-car-timeline.html
>
> Whoops, I was wrong, electric cars have been around almost 200 years!
>
> If electric cars haven't taken over in the last 100 years, I would not be
> inclined to bet that they'll make the big move in the next 100.
>
> Someone might invent that ultra-super-capacitor, that can be charged
> quickly and provide power for hundreds of miles of driving.  Might happen.
> Someone might also invent a bacteria that eats garbage and produces diesel
> fuel, and then we'll all be driving diesel powered cars forever.  We shall
> know in the fullness of time...
>
> -
> Max
> Charleston SC
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Re: [MBZ] big oil dying (again)

[Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes]

The federal government spends money on lots of things that are not
immediately profitable. That is pretty much the role of the government.
Computers, lasers, the internet, gps, etc. Much of this is done by funding
basic science through NIH, a bunch by funding defense work by the Navy and
Darpa, and much of that does not pan out commercially. But enough of it
does to make it fully worthwhile.

Solar energy would not be approaching cost parity with gas etc if the
government had not invested in the market. A bunch of private equity is
funding local solar power development in Africa right now, because it is
cheaper than building transmission lines, which have the 100 year head
start but still never managed to get developed. So solar is coming along,
and is already cheaper here than increasing our US power rates to build
power plants that we don't actually need (see LA times article). You pay
one way or the other.

The Chinese are actually investing more than we are in nuclear fusion,
which spurred us into action on it. I do not think we want them to figure
it out first, as this would be a massive strategic disadvantage for the US.

Most major advances in technology are funded in one way or another by the
government. Your tax dollars at work.

On Jun 30, 2017 9:34 AM, "rogerhga--- via Mercedes" 
wrote:

I can't believe you guys are missing the obvious. The energy answer is the
"flux capacitor". We can convert garbage to energyand we all know we
have way too much garbage in this world. Or maybe the methanol out of
landfills and convert it to synthetic diesel. Or maybe something that
hasn't been thought of yet. I still remember when solar would be the
answer, then wind, then coal gasification, and so on. We probably need a
mix a many things, but most of all those things need to pay for themselves
without expecting the average taxpayer to fund someone else's energy.
Remember the company a few years back that got $650 million from the
government and then went belly up?
Keep looking. Similar to the X Files, the answer is out there.
Best Wishes and a Happy and safe 4th Holiday,
Roger
Roger Hale
Dinnerware Classics, Inc.
Monroe, Ga.
770-267-0850
www.dinnerwareclassics.com


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Re: [MBZ] big oil dying (again)

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

Meade Dillon via Mercedes wrote:

Whoops, I was wrong, electric cars have been around almost 200 years!

If electric cars haven't taken over in the last 100 years, I would not be
inclined to bet that they'll make the big move in the next 100.
+1Particularly, if the markets are allowed to work without goobermnt 
intervention, like the billions of taxpayer dollars Elton Musk gets  
(Something stinks!  A Musk ox is called that because it STINKS)


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Re: [MBZ] big oil dying (again)

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

Huzzah!


rogerhga--- via Mercedes 
June 30, 2017 at 11:34 AM
I can't believe you guys are missing the obvious. The energy answer is 
the "flux capacitor". We can convert garbage to energyand we all 
know we have way too much garbage in this world. Or maybe the methanol 
out of landfills and convert it to synthetic diesel. Or maybe 
something that hasn't been thought of yet. I still remember when solar 
would be the answer, then wind, then coal gasification, and so on. We 
probably need a mix a many things, but most of all those things need 
to pay for themselves without expecting the average taxpayer to fund 
someone else's energy. Remember the company a few years back that got 
$650 million from the government and then went belly up?

Keep looking. Similar to the X Files, the answer is out there.
Best Wishes and a Happy and safe 4th Holiday,
Roger
Roger Hale
Dinnerware Classics, Inc.
Monroe, Ga.
770-267-0850
www.dinnerwareclassics.com



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Re: [MBZ] big oil dying (again)

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

Bzzt!  Solar and wind are NOT sustainable without the goobermnt robbing 
us to prop up wind and solar.


Curt Raymond via Mercedes wrote:

Solar and wind are part of a sustainable mix and will make our non-renewable 
energy sources last much longer but they aren't the whole answer.
OTOH people who think "Drill baby drill" will solve all our problems are also 
deluding themselves. As with most things the answer is in the middle. There is no silver 
bullet.

-Curt



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Re: [MBZ] big oil dying (again)

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

No, Andrew, the MARKET did NOT speak.  The GOOBERS in the GOOBERMNT 
spoke, and threw, and are throwing billions of illegally taken taxpayer 
Dollars to support economically unfeasible solar and wind.


For example, Tesla:  Most of the cost of production is goobermnt money.  
(Not to mention solendra)
Example MidAmerican Energy CEO was asked how much of the billions of 
bucks being spent for their latest wind farms was tax dollars.  He 
looked at the interviewer and answered HONESTLY!  He said "All of it"


Get yer facts straight.  Goobers distort the markets, and nearly every 
market has been distorted by our out of control goobers.  Even the 
illegal drug market is distorted by goobers.


(Not politics, ECONOMICS)

Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
June 30, 2017 at 10:48 AM
Meade, by now the market place has spoken. The trend toward solar and wind
is overwhelming. This doesn't mean that gas cars will be phased out
overnight but the writing is on the wall.



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Re: [MBZ] big oil dying (again)

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

Uh oh!  No trigger warning before providing truth!


M. Mitchell Marmel via Mercedes 
June 30, 2017 at 4:20 AM
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/08/solar-industrys-new-dirty-secret/

*It’s no secret

that manufacturing solar panels often requires toxic heavy metals,
explosive gases, and rare-earth elements that come from shoddy mines in
war-torn republics. But here’s a surprise: The solar industry is actually
getting dirtier in some respects. The latest Solar Scorecard
 from the Silicon Valley
Toxics Coalition (SVTC), released last week, reports that the industry has
slipped on several key environmental metrics, with many solar-panel
manufacturers now refusing to provide any information about their
manufacturing practices at all.*



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Re: [MBZ] big oil dying (again)

[Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes]

Interesting LA Times artice balancing solar against conventional power
sources. Part at the end re: the perverse incentives of power utilities to
build more plants because they can then charge more per kWh, is interesting:

http://www.latimes.com/projects/la-fi-electricity-solar/

On Fri, Jun 30, 2017 at 9:47 AM, Mountain Man via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Andrew wrote:
> > The trend toward solar and wind is overwhelming.
>
> That is all government statistical manipulation that does not factor
> the tax benefits to large corporations, etc.
> Centralized energy production and distribution is a dead design
> principle since environment affects resource mining practices.
> Environment is good and paid rent for my lifetime of employment but
> locking down on damages in the environment is not conducive to
> centralized production needs.  Nor is power wasting appliances and
> living practices today.  12v systems might manage much of our living
> needs - they do for RV owners.
> It seems we are not doing well, oh, well.
> tin.man
>
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Re: [MBZ] big oil dying (again)

[Mountain Man via Mercedes]

Andrew wrote:
> The trend toward solar and wind is overwhelming.

That is all government statistical manipulation that does not factor
the tax benefits to large corporations, etc.
Centralized energy production and distribution is a dead design
principle since environment affects resource mining practices.
Environment is good and paid rent for my lifetime of employment but
locking down on damages in the environment is not conducive to
centralized production needs.  Nor is power wasting appliances and
living practices today.  12v systems might manage much of our living
needs - they do for RV owners.
It seems we are not doing well, oh, well.
tin.man

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Re: [MBZ] big oil dying (again)

[Meade Dillon via Mercedes]

Andrew, I think there have been electric cars almost as long as there have
been gasoline engine cars.  Google knows all.

http://www.pbs.org/now/shows/223/electric-car-timeline.html

Whoops, I was wrong, electric cars have been around almost 200 years!

If electric cars haven't taken over in the last 100 years, I would not be
inclined to bet that they'll make the big move in the next 100.

Someone might invent that ultra-super-capacitor, that can be charged
quickly and provide power for hundreds of miles of driving.  Might happen.
Someone might also invent a bacteria that eats garbage and produces diesel
fuel, and then we'll all be driving diesel powered cars forever.  We shall
know in the fullness of time...

-
Max
Charleston SC
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Re: [MBZ] big oil dying (again)

[rogerhga--- via Mercedes]

I can't believe you guys are missing the obvious. The energy answer is the 
"flux capacitor". We can convert garbage to energyand we all know we have 
way too much garbage in this world. Or maybe the methanol out of landfills and 
convert it to synthetic diesel. Or maybe something that hasn't been thought of 
yet. I still remember when solar would be the answer, then wind, then coal 
gasification, and so on. We probably need a mix a many things, but most of all 
those things need to pay for themselves without expecting the average taxpayer 
to fund someone else's energy. Remember the company a few years back that got 
$650 million from the government and then went belly up? 
Keep looking. Similar to the X Files, the answer is out there. 
Best Wishes and a Happy and safe 4th Holiday, 
Roger 
Roger Hale 
Dinnerware Classics, Inc. 
Monroe, Ga. 
770-267-0850 
www.dinnerwareclassics.com 


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Re: [MBZ] big oil dying (again)

[Floyd Thursby via Mercedes]

I am reminded of an interesting situation that occurred in TX 7 or 8 
years ago in NY Day I think it was.  TX has an independent electric 
grid, I think there are only 1 or 2 connections outside the state.  TX 
also has a large installed wind generation capacity in West Texas that 
contributes a lot, the wind out there blows well.  Except that day it 
just stopped.  No wind.  The whole generation capacity dropped off-line, 
which caused considerable problems in the grid.  It was good it happened 
on that holiday as the demand was relatively low, but it showed the 
problems with reliance on that particular mode.


I think it is reasonable that all generation modes be considered as long 
as all the costs (and subsidies) are properly accounted, which for me 
means that none of the modes should have one penny of subsidy, tax 
breaks, or anything else, and externalities should be properly accounted 
for.  That way reasonable decisions can be made as to what is best, 
recognizing that things can change over time.


And politicians and lobbyists are not looking out for OUR interests...

-_FT

On 6/30/17 12:00 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes wrote:

Yeahbut, although solar and wind will become a portion of the energy stream 
they cannot replace conventional power. Can't be done, there just isn't enough 
energy. Sure you can power one house but look at an apartment building, one 
roof can't power 50 stories of apartments, not enough energy density.
You mention the power company pays you, thats in summer time, what about in 
December, theres less light then remember? Plus you're not using a dozen 
kilowatts a day driving around. If you bring an electric car into the mix 
you'll be buying power again.
Tidal energy shows great promise since its BIG and regular but storage is 
always a problem as is transmission.
Solar and wind are part of a sustainable mix and will make our non-renewable 
energy sources last much longer but they aren't the whole answer.
OTOH people who think "Drill baby drill" will solve all our problems are also 
deluding themselves. As with most things the answer is in the middle. There is no silver 
bullet.

-Curt


   From: Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
  To: Mercedes Discussion List 
Cc: Andrew Strasfogel ; Meade Dillon 

  Sent: Friday, June 30, 2017 11:50 AM
  Subject: Re: [MBZ] big oil dying (again)

Meade, by now the market place has spoken.  The trend toward solar and wind

is overwhelming.  This doesn't mean that gas cars will be phased out
overnight but the writing is on the wall.


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--
--FT
Winston Churchill:
“Never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or 
petty,
never give in except to convictions of honor and good sense.
Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the 
enemy.”


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Re: [MBZ] big oil dying (again)

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

Yeahbut, although solar and wind will become a portion of the energy stream 
they cannot replace conventional power. Can't be done, there just isn't enough 
energy. Sure you can power one house but look at an apartment building, one 
roof can't power 50 stories of apartments, not enough energy density.
You mention the power company pays you, thats in summer time, what about in 
December, theres less light then remember? Plus you're not using a dozen 
kilowatts a day driving around. If you bring an electric car into the mix 
you'll be buying power again.
Tidal energy shows great promise since its BIG and regular but storage is 
always a problem as is transmission.
Solar and wind are part of a sustainable mix and will make our non-renewable 
energy sources last much longer but they aren't the whole answer.
OTOH people who think "Drill baby drill" will solve all our problems are also 
deluding themselves. As with most things the answer is in the middle. There is 
no silver bullet.

-Curt


  From: Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
 To: Mercedes Discussion List  
Cc: Andrew Strasfogel ; Meade Dillon 

 Sent: Friday, June 30, 2017 11:50 AM
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] big oil dying (again)
   
Meade, by now the market place has spoken.  The trend toward solar and wind
is overwhelming.  This doesn't mean that gas cars will be phased out
overnight but the writing is on the wall.

   
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Re: [MBZ] big oil dying (again)

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

Meade, by now the market place has spoken.  The trend toward solar and wind
is overwhelming.  This doesn't mean that gas cars will be phased out
overnight but the writing is on the wall.



On Fri, Jun 30, 2017 at 6:59 AM, Meade Dillon via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Karl I do hope you are correct, and the breakthroughs needed to fulfill the
> dream of that article arrive tomorrow.  Decades ago I learned the reason
> that solar is doomed to a small percentage of our energy production:
> physics.  Per square meter, the amount of usable energy in sunlight is many
> order of magnitudes less than what is needed for modern life.  Ten minutes
> at a gas pump can provide enough energy to carry my family in comfort and
> safety for hundreds and hundreds of miles.  Covering my roof with solar
> panels will never provide all the energy that my heat pumps require to keep
> my house climate comfortable.  Perhaps someday we'll have sufficient power
> plants (fossil fuel or nuclear) and sufficient distribution to deliver
> power for businesses / homes / and transportation where needed, and someone
> will invent a capacitor that fits in a car and holds the same amount of
> energy as 16 or 18 gallons of fuel that can be fully charged in minutes,
> but solar and wind are doomed to providing just a small portion of that.
>
> It really doesn't matter how elegant one part of the solution is (electric
> cars are simple and durable) if you can't solve the whole equation.
>
> -
> Max
> Charleston SC
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Re: [MBZ] big oil dying (again)

[Meade Dillon via Mercedes]

Karl I do hope you are correct, and the breakthroughs needed to fulfill the
dream of that article arrive tomorrow.  Decades ago I learned the reason
that solar is doomed to a small percentage of our energy production:
physics.  Per square meter, the amount of usable energy in sunlight is many
order of magnitudes less than what is needed for modern life.  Ten minutes
at a gas pump can provide enough energy to carry my family in comfort and
safety for hundreds and hundreds of miles.  Covering my roof with solar
panels will never provide all the energy that my heat pumps require to keep
my house climate comfortable.  Perhaps someday we'll have sufficient power
plants (fossil fuel or nuclear) and sufficient distribution to deliver
power for businesses / homes / and transportation where needed, and someone
will invent a capacitor that fits in a car and holds the same amount of
energy as 16 or 18 gallons of fuel that can be fully charged in minutes,
but solar and wind are doomed to providing just a small portion of that.

It really doesn't matter how elegant one part of the solution is (electric
cars are simple and durable) if you can't solve the whole equation.

-
Max
Charleston SC
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Re: [MBZ] big oil dying (again)

[M. Mitchell Marmel via Mercedes]

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/08/solar-industrys-new-dirty-secret/

*It’s no secret

that manufacturing solar panels often requires toxic heavy metals,
explosive gases, and rare-earth elements that come from shoddy mines in
war-torn republics. But here’s a surprise: The solar industry is actually
getting dirtier in some respects. The latest Solar Scorecard
 from the Silicon Valley
Toxics Coalition (SVTC), released last week, reports that the industry has
slipped on several key environmental metrics, with many solar-panel
manufacturers now refusing to provide any information about their
manufacturing practices at all.*

On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 10:37 PM, Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> The transmission point is addressed in the article.
>
> Yes solar power takes space, but there are lots of rooftops. As for acres
> we did the math on a half section, and solar is a much better return than
> farming, with no yearly capital or labor input.
>
> As for pure electrics, fewer moving parts is always a plus. Electrics are
> super simple mechanically. Less maintenance offsets the up front costs. It
> is in the article.
>
> If electricity is generated locally and consumed locally, there is less
> need for distribution. Distribution is also a major source of loss, which
> is why we are seeing DC lines being put in for long distance transmission
> now.
>
> I had a senior PhD from a top 5 company tell me over dinner the other night
> that electric is the future of aviation. That surprised me, but when you
> think about everything that has come out of darpa, this is not such a big
> stretch.
>
> It will be interesting to see what markets embrace electric vehicles first.
> 400,000 tesla model 3 cars is a lot of orders for a car that doesnt exist,
> but a lot of people probably said landing a rocket was impossible also.
>
> Those who say a thing cannot be done are frequently interrupted by those
> doing it.
>
>
> On Jun 29, 2017 4:56 AM, "Curley McLain via Mercedes" <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com>
> wrote:
>
> Easy,  the Lektrojuicity comes from the sky and the wind by majik!   no
> fuel is burned to make the majik converters.   The wind/lektrick grabbers
> grow from the ground.  the sun-juice does not require thousands of acres of
> solar panels, it just appears in the wires!
>
> Meade Dillon via Mercedes 
> > June 29, 2017 at 6:41 AM
> >
> > It is also not grounded in reality. Where does the electricity come from?
> > How does it get from point of generation to point of charging / powering
> > the electric cars? I guess that a miracle from God must be involved
> > somewhere...
> >
> > -
> > Max
> > Charleston SC
> >
>
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Re: [MBZ] big oil dying (again)

[Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes]

The transmission point is addressed in the article.

Yes solar power takes space, but there are lots of rooftops. As for acres
we did the math on a half section, and solar is a much better return than
farming, with no yearly capital or labor input.

As for pure electrics, fewer moving parts is always a plus. Electrics are
super simple mechanically. Less maintenance offsets the up front costs. It
is in the article.

If electricity is generated locally and consumed locally, there is less
need for distribution. Distribution is also a major source of loss, which
is why we are seeing DC lines being put in for long distance transmission
now.

I had a senior PhD from a top 5 company tell me over dinner the other night
that electric is the future of aviation. That surprised me, but when you
think about everything that has come out of darpa, this is not such a big
stretch.

It will be interesting to see what markets embrace electric vehicles first.
400,000 tesla model 3 cars is a lot of orders for a car that doesnt exist,
but a lot of people probably said landing a rocket was impossible also.

Those who say a thing cannot be done are frequently interrupted by those
doing it.


On Jun 29, 2017 4:56 AM, "Curley McLain via Mercedes" 
wrote:

Easy,  the Lektrojuicity comes from the sky and the wind by majik!   no
fuel is burned to make the majik converters.   The wind/lektrick grabbers
grow from the ground.  the sun-juice does not require thousands of acres of
solar panels, it just appears in the wires!

Meade Dillon via Mercedes 
> June 29, 2017 at 6:41 AM
>
> It is also not grounded in reality. Where does the electricity come from?
> How does it get from point of generation to point of charging / powering
> the electric cars? I guess that a miracle from God must be involved
> somewhere...
>
> -
> Max
> Charleston SC
>

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Re: [MBZ] big oil dying (again)

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

All it requires is half my roof, and for 6 months of the year Pepco pays ME.

On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 7:55 AM, Curley McLain via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Easy,  the Lektrojuicity comes from the sky and the wind by majik!   no
> fuel is burned to make the majik converters.   The wind/lektrick grabbers
> grow from the ground.  the sun-juice does not require thousands of acres of
> solar panels, it just appears in the wires!
>
> Meade Dillon via Mercedes 
>> June 29, 2017 at 6:41 AM
>> It is also not grounded in reality. Where does the electricity come from?
>> How does it get from point of generation to point of charging / powering
>> the electric cars? I guess that a miracle from God must be involved
>> somewhere...
>>
>> -
>> Max
>> Charleston SC
>>
>
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Re: [MBZ] big oil dying (again)

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

Easy,  the Lektrojuicity comes from the sky and the wind by majik!   no 
fuel is burned to make the majik converters.   The wind/lektrick 
grabbers grow from the ground.  the sun-juice does not require thousands 
of acres of solar panels, it just appears in the wires!



Meade Dillon via Mercedes 
June 29, 2017 at 6:41 AM
It is also not grounded in reality. Where does the electricity come from?
How does it get from point of generation to point of charging / powering
the electric cars? I guess that a miracle from God must be involved
somewhere...

-
Max
Charleston SC


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Re: [MBZ] big oil dying (again)

[Meade Dillon via Mercedes]

It is also not grounded in reality.  Where does the electricity come from?
How does it get from point of generation to point of charging / powering
the electric cars?  I guess that a miracle from God must be involved
somewhere...

-
Max
Charleston SC

On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 5:35 AM, Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> I found this interesting, if a bit hyperbolic:
>
> shift.newco.co/this-is-how-big-oil-will-die-38b843bd4fe0
> ___
>
>
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[MBZ] big oil dying (again)

[Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes]

I found this interesting, if a bit hyperbolic:

shift.newco.co/this-is-how-big-oil-will-die-38b843bd4fe0
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