Re: [MBZ] 747

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

Amazing statistics - 4 killed, 200 injured.  Unprecedented ratio.

On Sun, Nov 26, 2017 at 5:53 PM, Rick Knoble via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Regular speed, but a large aircraft tumbles slowly. Watch them all.
>
> Rick
>   Original Message
> From: Mountain Man via Mercedes
> Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2017 3:53 PM
> To: Mercedes Discussion List
> Reply To: Mercedes Discussion List
> Cc: Mountain Man
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] 747
>
>
> Rick wrote:
> > ‎...
>
> Is one of these the slo-mo Peter mentioned?
> Thanks.
> tin.man
>
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Re: [MBZ] 747

[Rick Knoble via Mercedes]

Regular speed, but a large aircraft tumbles slowly. Watch them all.

Rick
  Original Message
From: Mountain Man via Mercedes
Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2017 3:53 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Reply To: Mercedes Discussion List
Cc: Mountain Man
Subject: Re: [MBZ] 747


Rick wrote:
> ‎...

Is one of these the slo-mo Peter mentioned?
Thanks.
tin.man

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Re: [MBZ] 747

[Mountain Man via Mercedes]

Rick wrote:
> ‎...

Is one of these the slo-mo Peter mentioned?
Thanks.
tin.man

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Re: [MBZ] 747

[Rick Knoble via Mercedes]

‎https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUboPQQk6r0=em

‎https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTXDalv7kNQ=em

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlkRE3Jsefo=em

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoTk5670rmQ=em

Rick
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Re: [MBZ] 747

[Mountain Man via Mercedes]

Peter wrote:
> ...If you haven't watched the video in slo-mo of the crash, you should.

Please provide a link for this slo-mo?  Anyone?
Very nice discussion, thanks Peter.
tin.man

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Re: [MBZ] 747

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

In the days before the first 707 jets the Electra (?) turbo props were the
deluxe models.  There seemed to be a crash every few months so I was quite
nervous on my first flight at the age of 9 IIRC.

On Sat, Nov 25, 2017 at 6:11 PM, Peter Frederick via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> The worst scare I've had riding in a plane was a landing in 1974 at
> Louisville, KY in thunderstormy weather.  We were in an Eastern 727 making
> a normal approach when we flew into what I assume was a vertical downdraft,
> aka wind shear.  Plane essentially fell out of the air very close to the
> runway on the port side, felt like free fall.  We were over the pavement,
> so probably weren't more than 20 feet up, but far enough!
>
> Wingtip missed the runway by a foot or two -- I was sitting over the wing
> looking out, and I would swear it should have been torn off.
>
> Had a great pilot, although I didn't know it at the time, as he managed to
> bounce off the port gear without shearing it off.  We hit hard enough that
> I could see the cabin twist, and all the overhead compartments popped open.
>
> Another big bounce on the starboard side, then a bounce on both gears, and
> finally got us down on the runway a very long way down, so the pilot
> applied full brakes and reverse thrust.  Quite the braking event, all the
> passengers were face down in the seat in front of them and crap was sliding
> down the aisle.  A 727 has a VERY short rollout under full braking (so does
> a 747).
>
> I didn't know it at the time, but this is exactly the correct thing to do
> in any of the early 707 fuselage Boeings, especially the 727.  The landing
> gears are a bit weak, and given the rear engine design, electric, fuel, and
> pneumatics are all ripped out when the gear collapses, resulting in very
> serious fires.  The proper procedure is to keep the plane from hitting too
> hard, it's far better to bounce into the air a couple times than to crush a
> landing gear.  Not a fun ride.
>
> We barely made the last taxi exit, but emerged undamaged.  I did get off
> the flight and walk around, as did the pilots in spite of the flight
> continuing to DC National, and the plane was delayed a bit for inspection.
> Otherwise a totally uneventful flight.
>
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] 747

[Peter Frederick via Mercedes]

The worst scare I've had riding in a plane was a landing in 1974 at Louisville, 
KY in thunderstormy weather.  We were in an Eastern 727 making a normal 
approach when we flew into what I assume was a vertical downdraft, aka wind 
shear.  Plane essentially fell out of the air very close to the runway on the 
port side, felt like free fall.  We were over the pavement, so probably weren't 
more than 20 feet up, but far enough!

Wingtip missed the runway by a foot or two -- I was sitting over the wing 
looking out, and I would swear it should have been torn off.

Had a great pilot, although I didn't know it at the time, as he managed to 
bounce off the port gear without shearing it off.  We hit hard enough that I 
could see the cabin twist, and all the overhead compartments popped open.

Another big bounce on the starboard side, then a bounce on both gears, and 
finally got us down on the runway a very long way down, so the pilot applied 
full brakes and reverse thrust.  Quite the braking event, all the passengers 
were face down in the seat in front of them and crap was sliding down the 
aisle.  A 727 has a VERY short rollout under full braking (so does a 747).

I didn't know it at the time, but this is exactly the correct thing to do in 
any of the early 707 fuselage Boeings, especially the 727.  The landing gears 
are a bit weak, and given the rear engine design, electric, fuel, and 
pneumatics are all ripped out when the gear collapses, resulting in very 
serious fires.  The proper procedure is to keep the plane from hitting too 
hard, it's far better to bounce into the air a couple times than to crush a 
landing gear.  Not a fun ride.

We barely made the last taxi exit, but emerged undamaged.  I did get off the 
flight and walk around, as did the pilots in spite of the flight continuing to 
DC National, and the plane was delayed a bit for inspection.  Otherwise a 
totally uneventful flight.



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Re: [MBZ] 747

[MG via Mercedes]

I don't know. It started the landing straight on and then turned 
sideways. First one way and then the other a couple of times. 
Reminded me of the skids I had done in the car at one time or 
another. It was mid Dec in New York so I figure the runway was a 
bit icy. It was quite cold out when we walked to the car.


archer75--- via Mercedes wrote:

Wilton once wrote that the landing gear on a BUFF could be turned so the plane 
could land partially sideways. I wonder if the 747 might have the same feature? 
Wilton might know.
Gerry

MG wrote:
Hah! I got to go down the runway sideways on one during a 
landing. That was fun!


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Re: [MBZ] 747

[as.thompson--- via Mercedes]

Good summary Peter. 

Two additional points - 1. there were four pilots on board and no one called 
out the throttles and 2. the TRACON cleared them for the approach but 
instructed them to maintain 180 knots until 5 miles from the runway and they 
were actually at 192/193 until 4 miles out. (normally you should be stabilized 
on speed/on glide slope at 4 to 5 miles).

Regards,
Addison Thompson
Retired Boeing Test Pilot


On November 24, 2017, Peter Frederick wrote:

Yup.

The cause of the accident is fairly complex though.

The principle cause, although this is not widely addressed, is that air traffic 
control at SF is notorious for giving final landing authorization long after 
the aircraft is past the initial point in the glide slope.  It's bad enough 
that "go arounds" are quite common since it's dangerous to descend at high 
rates of altitude loss during final approach.

What happened with the 777 was that late authorization was given, so the plane 
was well above the proper glide slope altitude but committed to landing.  The 
pilot selected "flight change mode" for the autopilot to allow a fairly steep 
drop down the the proper glide slope, and forgot that that particular setting 
disables the auto-throttles on the engines.  I believe it's intended for fully 
manual flight, but someone with more knowledge would have to chime in on that, 
I'm reporting what I gleaned form a variety of on line discussions.

Since the autothrottles were disabled, and the autopilot does NOT report that 
when "flight change mode" is selected, when the aircraft entered final approach 
near the end to  the runway, the engines did not spool up and it descended 
faster than normal and may have stalled, then hit the seawall.

The pilot was in fact not very experienced with the 777, but the ALPA has 
complained to Boeing quite a bit about that flight system according to the 
pilots posting on forums.  The causes of the accident were pretty well agreed 
on by 777 pilots within a couple days, as many of them had been caught unaware 
by the "flight change mode", and most US airlines seem to train more for that 
issue, it's deadly on final approach and should never be used while landing.  I 
don't know how clear this is in the flight manuals or in the training Asiana 
gave it's pilots.

However, my personal take on this is that while improper training or improper 
use of "flight change mode" was the direct cause of the accident, the 777, like 
all modern computer controlled aircraft, will land itself quite nicely in the 
conditions at SF that day, but because the delay in final landing approval 
caused the aircraft to be seriously out of position when final approach was 
initiated, the pilots had to use unusual measures to get on the glide slope.  
High rates of descent in heavy jet aircraft with swept wings is ALWAYS a risk 
near the ground, it takes quite a bit of engine power to halt the descent, and 
it takes about 8 seconds to get full power out of a high bipass engine when it 
is initially in idle.  There were several bad accidents in the 60's in 727s for 
this reason -- you can drop one of those birds at 10,000 ft per minute, but you 
better put the power on fast when you want to slow that rate.  They don't 
bounce very well.

Safety isn't about punishing people for making errors, it's about eliminating 
the cause for errors and preventing unintended actions.  Yes, the pilot made a 
serious error, but the only reason he did is that ATC failed to authorize 
descent until he was 1000 ft above the upper limit of the glide slope.  

One could also question why an altitude change mode would disable autothrottles 
as well -- it's sort of like a cruise control that disconnects if you change 
lanes as far as I can tell.  At the very least, the pilot should be visually 
and audibly warned that autothrottles are disabled.  It's not possible to spool 
a turbofan engine up fast enough in this scenario.

The good thing is that the 777 is an amazingly tough aircraft.  If you haven't 
watched the video in slo-mo of the crash, you should.  it's not very clear, but 
it is obvious that the aircraft very nearly stood on it's nose after the 
impact, but the fuselage stayed intact.  A very similar accident at Boston 
Logan with a 727 in the early 70's resulted in nearly complete disintegration 
of the airframe

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Re: [MBZ] 747

[Floyd Thursby via Mercedes]

Yeah they got that one guy's name long, it is Ho Ree Fook

To be fair that was the weekend news babe stand-in, she dint no nuffin, 
and the newswriter was probably messin with her too.


--FT


On 11/24/17 3:59 PM, Randy Bennell via Mercedes wrote:
You would think that the news people would have looked at the "names" 
and seen the joke but they apparently did get the infomation from what 
should have been a good reliable source so they just paid no attention.
It is very easy to be complacent and fail to check things out for 
yourself.


RB

On 24/11/2017 2:21 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes wrote:
I practically soil myself laughing every time I see this.  From a 
professional standpoint, these people will never, ever get to live 
this down.


-D


On Nov 24, 2017, at 2:58 PM, Rick Knoble via Mercedes 
 wrote:



‎‎Is that the one that hit the seawall?


Yep.
Bang Ding Ow
Wi Tu Low
Sum Ting Wong
Ho Lee Fuk
Were the crew.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jtxds204ZMI=em

Rick
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Re: [MBZ] 747

[Peter Frederick via Mercedes]

Yup.

The cause of the accident is fairly complex though.

The principle cause, although this is not widely addressed, is that air traffic 
control at SF is notorious for giving final landing authorization long after 
the aircraft is past the initial point in the glide slope.  It's bad enough 
that "go arounds" are quite common since it's dangerous to descend at high 
rates of altitude loss during final approach.

What happened with the 777 was that late authorization was given, so the plane 
was well above the proper glide slope altitude but committed to landing.  The 
pilot selected "flight change mode" for the autopilot to allow a fairly steep 
drop down the the proper glide slope, and forgot that that particular setting 
disables the auto-throttles on the engines.  I believe it's intended for fully 
manual flight, but someone with more knowledge would have to chime in on that, 
I'm reporting what I gleaned form a variety of on line discussions.

Since the autothrottles were disabled, and the autopilot does NOT report that 
when "flight change mode" is selected, when the aircraft entered final approach 
near the end to  the runway, the engines did not spool up and it descended 
faster than normal and may have stalled, then hit the seawall.

The pilot was in fact not very experienced with the 777, but the ALPA has 
complained to Boeing quite a bit about that flight system according to the 
pilots posting on forums.  The causes of the accident were pretty well agreed 
on by 777 pilots within a couple days, as many of them had been caught unaware 
by the "flight change mode", and most US airlines seem to train more for that 
issue, it's deadly on final approach and should never be used while landing.  I 
don't know how clear this is in the flight manuals or in the training Asiana 
gave it's pilots.

However, my personal take on this is that while improper training or improper 
use of "flight change mode" was the direct cause of the accident, the 777, like 
all modern computer controlled aircraft, will land itself quite nicely in the 
conditions at SF that day, but because the delay in final landing approval 
caused the aircraft to be seriously out of position when final approach was 
initiated, the pilots had to use unusual measures to get on the glide slope.  
High rates of descent in heavy jet aircraft with swept wings is ALWAYS a risk 
near the ground, it takes quite a bit of engine power to halt the descent, and 
it takes about 8 seconds to get full power out of a high bipass engine when it 
is initially in idle.  There were several bad accidents in the 60's in 727s for 
this reason -- you can drop one of those birds at 10,000 ft per minute, but you 
better put the power on fast when you want to slow that rate.  They don't 
bounce very well.

Safety isn't about punishing people for making errors, it's about eliminating 
the cause for errors and preventing unintended actions.  Yes, the pilot made a 
serious error, but the only reason he did is that ATC failed to authorize 
descent until he was 1000 ft above the upper limit of the glide slope.  

One could also question why an altitude change mode would disable autothrottles 
as well -- it's sort of like a cruise control that disconnects if you change 
lanes as far as I can tell.  At the very least, the pilot should be visually 
and audibly warned that autothrottles are disabled.  It's not possible to spool 
a turbofan engine up fast enough in this scenario.

The good thing is that the 777 is an amazingly tough aircraft.  If you haven't 
watched the video in slo-mo of the crash, you should.  it's not very clear, but 
it is obvious that the aircraft very nearly stood on it's nose after the 
impact, but the fuselage stayed intact.  A very similar accident at Boston 
Logan with a 727 in the early 70's resulted in nearly complete disintegration 
of the airframe
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Re: [MBZ] 747

[Randy Bennell via Mercedes]

You would think that the news people would have looked at the "names" 
and seen the joke but they apparently did get the infomation from what 
should have been a good reliable source so they just paid no attention.

It is very easy to be complacent and fail to check things out for yourself.

RB

On 24/11/2017 2:21 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes wrote:

I practically soil myself laughing every time I see this.  From a professional 
standpoint, these people will never, ever get to live this down.

-D



On Nov 24, 2017, at 2:58 PM, Rick Knoble via Mercedes  
wrote:


‎‎Is that the one that hit the seawall?


Yep.
Bang Ding Ow
Wi Tu Low
Sum Ting Wong
Ho Lee Fuk
Were the crew.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jtxds204ZMI=em

Rick
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Re: [MBZ] 747

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

I practically soil myself laughing every time I see this.  From a professional 
standpoint, these people will never, ever get to live this down.

-D


> On Nov 24, 2017, at 2:58 PM, Rick Knoble via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
>> ‎‎Is that the one that hit the seawall?
> 
> 
> Yep. 
> Bang Ding Ow
> Wi Tu Low
> Sum Ting Wong
> Ho Lee Fuk
> Were the crew. 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jtxds204ZMI=em
> 
> Rick
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> 
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Re: [MBZ] 747

[Rick Knoble via Mercedes]

>‎‎Is that the one that hit the seawall?


Yep. 
Bang Ding Ow
Wi Tu Low
Sum Ting Wong
Ho Lee Fuk
Were the crew. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jtxds204ZMI=em

Rick
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Re: [MBZ] 747

[Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes]

Because the pilots on board seemed to only be trained to use automation to land 
and lacked basic flying skills. I just watch an air disasters episode about 
this flight. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 24, 2017, at 11:10 AM, Mountain Man via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> Peter wrote:
>> ...You can even slam it into a runway pier at 180 mph and nearly flip it 
>> over and still save all but a couple passengers, and was demonstrated 
>> un-intentionally at SF.
> 
> Is that the one that hit the seawall?
> tin.man
> 
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Re: [MBZ] 747

[archer75--- via Mercedes]

Wilton once wrote that the landing gear on a BUFF could be turned so the plane 
could land partially sideways. I wonder if the 747 might have the same feature? 
Wilton might know.
Gerry

MG wrote:
> Hah! I got to go down the runway sideways on one during a 
> landing. That was fun!

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Re: [MBZ] 747

[Mountain Man via Mercedes]

Peter wrote:
> ...You can even slam it into a runway pier at 180 mph and nearly flip it over 
> and still save all but a couple passengers, and was demonstrated 
> un-intentionally at SF.

Is that the one that hit the seawall?
tin.man

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Re: [MBZ] 747

[MG via Mercedes]

Hah! I got to go down the runway sideways on one during a 
landing. That was fun!



Curley McLain via Mercedes wrote:
I got to fly back from Entebbe, Uganda to London on one.  British 
Airways.  It was a full house.  Very snug.  I wanted to see the upper 
deck, but no dice.



Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
November 22, 2017 at 1:56 PM
I’ve flown on most, if not all, of the variants. -200, -300, -400. As 
you might expect, the -400s were the nicest. Got to make the trip 
across the Pond to the UK in the bunk room on the top deck one time 
because my business class seat back broke. Upper deck was full and I 
wasn’t about to go sit with the common folk downstairs. The cabin crew 
asked if I could sit in the crew bunk room since it wasn’t occupied 
(trans-Atlantic flight, only one crew) and they said, “Sure!”


That was nice. Like having a private, albeit very small, suite.

They are big honking aircraft, that’s for sure. You should stand on 
the tarmac under one some time to get an idea of their incredible size.


-D



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Re: [MBZ] 747

[Peter Frederick via Mercedes]

The new 737 is pretty much a total re-design.  Stronger fuselage, better flight 
controls, probably new wing cross-section (although that may have been already 
done).  The "old" fuselage is the original 707 design, and has been considered 
far under strength for some time now.  New one should be as tough as the 777, 
which is pretty much indestructable as airframes go.  You can even slam it into 
a runway pier at 180 mph and nearly flip it over and still save all but a 
couple passengers, and was demonstrated un-intentionally at SF.
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Re: [MBZ] 747

[Max Dillon via Mercedes]

Satellites, and drones, and every single email and phone call.  And your smart 
phone.
-- 
Max Dillon
Charleston SC
'87 300TD
'95 E300

On November 22, 2017 5:40:27 PM EST, Rick Knoble via Mercedes 
 wrote:
>I've always wondered, if they designed the SR-71 with slide rules and
>drafting tables in the late '50s and early '60s with no or very limited
>computing power, what do they have now...?
>

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Re: [MBZ] 747

[archer75--- via Mercedes]

I would be more of a C-47 guy. I was trying to get a handle on how much 
interior space it had. It would obviously be a two story, but how many bedrooms 
upstairs, how many rooms downstairs, etc?
There are so many millionaires/billionaires in this country, there are probably 
quite a few who would build one if they wanted to; maybe finish it out like one 
of the Arab potentates 747s.
Gerry

"Kaleb C. Striplin wrote:
> How about a former pan am clipper 727?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> > On Nov 23, 2017, at 10:34 AM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
> >  wrote:
> > 
> > With the fuselage gutted, maybe you could use one of those heavy lift 
> > helicopters to fly it to the site?
> > 
> > -D
> > 
> > 
> >> On Nov 23, 2017, at 11:31 AM, G Mann via Mercedes  
> >> wrote:
> >> 
> >> Let me know when you are ready, I'll set you up with one.. moving costs
> >> will however clean your clock. Wings off, it's still to big to take down
> >> the road without special permits and routing.
> >> 
> >> Then again when you follow your dream, money has no object, does it..
> >> ;))
> >> 
> >> Friend of mine mounted the forward section, cockpit complete, of a DC 7 to
> >> the front of his private hanger... it gets a lot of attention...
> >> 
> >> On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 11:47 PM, archer75--- via Mercedes <
> >> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >> 
> >>> I wonder how a scrapped and gutted 747 body would be as a house; how many
> >>> rooms?
> >>> Several other airliners over the years have been converted into homes and
> >>> businesses.
> >>> Gerry
> >>> 
> > 
> > 
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> > 
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> > 
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> > 
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Re: [MBZ] 747

[Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes]

How about a former pan am clipper 727?

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 23, 2017, at 10:34 AM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> With the fuselage gutted, maybe you could use one of those heavy lift 
> helicopters to fly it to the site?
> 
> -D
> 
> 
>> On Nov 23, 2017, at 11:31 AM, G Mann via Mercedes  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Let me know when you are ready, I'll set you up with one.. moving costs
>> will however clean your clock. Wings off, it's still to big to take down
>> the road without special permits and routing.
>> 
>> Then again when you follow your dream, money has no object, does it..
>> ;))
>> 
>> Friend of mine mounted the forward section, cockpit complete, of a DC 7 to
>> the front of his private hanger... it gets a lot of attention...
>> 
>> On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 11:47 PM, archer75--- via Mercedes <
>> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> I wonder how a scrapped and gutted 747 body would be as a house; how many
>>> rooms?
>>> Several other airliners over the years have been converted into homes and
>>> businesses.
>>> Gerry
>>> 
> 
> 
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Re: [MBZ] 747

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

With the fuselage gutted, maybe you could use one of those heavy lift 
helicopters to fly it to the site?

-D


> On Nov 23, 2017, at 11:31 AM, G Mann via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> Let me know when you are ready, I'll set you up with one.. moving costs
> will however clean your clock. Wings off, it's still to big to take down
> the road without special permits and routing.
> 
> Then again when you follow your dream, money has no object, does it..
> ;))
> 
> Friend of mine mounted the forward section, cockpit complete, of a DC 7 to
> the front of his private hanger... it gets a lot of attention...
> 
> On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 11:47 PM, archer75--- via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> 
>> I wonder how a scrapped and gutted 747 body would be as a house; how many
>> rooms?
>> Several other airliners over the years have been converted into homes and
>> businesses.
>> Gerry
>> 


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Re: [MBZ] 747

[G Mann via Mercedes]

Let me know when you are ready, I'll set you up with one.. moving costs
will however clean your clock. Wings off, it's still to big to take down
the road without special permits and routing.

Then again when you follow your dream, money has no object, does it..
;))

Friend of mine mounted the forward section, cockpit complete, of a DC 7 to
the front of his private hanger... it gets a lot of attention...

On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 11:47 PM, archer75--- via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> I wonder how a scrapped and gutted 747 body would be as a house; how many
> rooms?
> Several other airliners over the years have been converted into homes and
> businesses.
> Gerry
>
> Dan Penoff wrote:
> > I’ve flown on most, if not all, of the variants. -200, -300, -400.  As
> you might expect, the -400s were the nicest.  Got to make the trip across
> the Pond to the UK in the bunk room on the top deck one time because my
> business class seat back broke.  Upper deck was full and I wasn’t about to
> go sit with the common folk downstairs.  The cabin crew asked if I could
> sit in the crew bunk room since it wasn’t occupied (trans-Atlantic flight,
> only one crew) and they said, “Sure!”
> >
> > That was nice.  Like having a private, albeit very small, suite.
> >
> > They are big honking aircraft, that’s for sure.  You should stand on the
> tarmac under one some time to get an idea of their incredible size.
> >
> > -D
> >
> >
> > > On Nov 22, 2017, at 2:47 PM, Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > I have always wanted to fly on one but does not look like I will get
> to. I guess they are probably used by some of the overseas airlines.
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> >
> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> >
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> >
>
>
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>
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Re: [MBZ] 747

[archer75--- via Mercedes]

I wonder how a scrapped and gutted 747 body would be as a house; how many rooms?
Several other airliners over the years have been converted into homes and 
businesses.
Gerry 

Dan Penoff wrote:
> I’ve flown on most, if not all, of the variants. -200, -300, -400.  As you 
> might expect, the -400s were the nicest.  Got to make the trip across the 
> Pond to the UK in the bunk room on the top deck one time because my business 
> class seat back broke.  Upper deck was full and I wasn’t about to go sit with 
> the common folk downstairs.  The cabin crew asked if I could sit in the crew 
> bunk room since it wasn’t occupied (trans-Atlantic flight, only one crew) and 
> they said, “Sure!”
> 
> That was nice.  Like having a private, albeit very small, suite.
> 
> They are big honking aircraft, that’s for sure.  You should stand on the 
> tarmac under one some time to get an idea of their incredible size.
> 
> -D
> 
>  
> > On Nov 22, 2017, at 2:47 PM, Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes 
> >  wrote:
> > 
> > I have always wanted to fly on one but does not look like I will get to. I 
> > guess they are probably used by some of the overseas airlines.
> > 
> > Sent from my iPhone
> 
> 
> ___
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> 
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> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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Re: [MBZ] 747

[clay monroe via Mercedes]

  The engineers have a problem getting beyond the idiots in marketing or sales. 
 Now the need is to make a “world” airplane.  Build it all over the place, so 
as to capture too many disparate parts.  Then, the whole, will result in 
mismatched parts that will need to be re-eningeered so that an airplane could 
be put together.  The troubles with both the 777 and the 787.  Now, the flying 
public is put on cartoon planes.



clay 

1974 450sl -  Frosch - Two tone green
1986 SDL - Polei
1982 300 SD - Allen

retired models-
2002 s430 - Victor, a Stately & well tailored crap
1976 300D - Blei Vanst - it looks silvery
1972 220D - Gump - She was green, simple and ran
1995 E300D - Gave her life to save me against a Dame in a SUV
POS 1987 SDL - Beware Nigerian Scammers







> On Nov 22, 2017, at 2:40 PM, Rick Knoble via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
>> ‎What a tribute to the guys in white shirts, >skinny black ties, and  pocket 
>> protectors
> 
> I've always wondered, if they designed the SR-71 with slide rules and 
> drafting tables in the late '50s and early '60s with no or very limited 
> computing power, what do they have now...?
> 
> Rick
> ___
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Re: [MBZ] 747

[Mountain Man via Mercedes]

--R wrote:
> Got to fly a brand new 777 once, was on its 3rd flight from US to UK. That 
> was really nice too.

We rode a close to maiden flight for the 777 at T-Day.  It was day
before T-Day years ago and riding to work the radio announced they
were giving $50 RT anywhere leaving T-Day morning, return friday
morning for first 50 callers.  It happened.  The captain was giddy
telling us over the cabin speakers all about the engines and width of
the aircraft and the interior amenities.  Our trip was ORD-DEN and
very memorable for $50.  Related(?) - a month ago my son acquired A320
type rating in Dallas.
mao

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Re: [MBZ] 747

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

On our flight from IND to TPA back in October we got to make one of the first 
flights on a SWA 737-MAX.  You can read more about them here:

https://thepointsguy.com/2017/10/first-look-southwest-737-max-8/

Really nice, very comfortable for someone over 6 foot tall.  Cabin lighting was 
funky.

The jumbos in general were all really nice.  I made a number of trips in an 
L-1011 which was owned by our travel club in Indianapolis, Ambassadair.  It was 
part of their fleet from the parent company, ATA.  My Dad was pilot buddies 
with the owner, George Mikelson.  He started out with a 727 back in the 1970s 
and eventually built up a nice fleet of aircraft.  The bills got paid with 
charters, and the travel club got the perks of having a broad range of aircraft 
to choose from for their planned trips.

We used to go to Freeport for weekend trips in the winter for $199/each.  That 
covered everything, except meals.  Leave on Friday afternoon, come back Sunday 
night.  My Mom traveled all over the world with them.  It was a great 
experience, as they handled everything from departure to return.  Didn’t have 
to worry about bags, transportation, clearing customs, etc.

-D


> On Nov 22, 2017, at 8:36 PM, Buggered Benzmail via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> Got to fly on 747s several times BOS-LHR and back on BA.  Usually business or 
> first class over then cattle class back. That was hard. BA first class was 
> VERY nice, starting in the lounge. Rode the upper deck a coupla times, back 
> then the pilots left the door open so it was possible to wander in and chat a 
> bit. That was fun. 
> 
> The food and drink in biz and first was quite pleasant and one could start in 
> the lounge before the flight. Toward the end of when I was flying some of the 
> lounges had showers to clean up after red-eyes, that was quite indulgent. 
> 
> I always found that chatting up the FAs was the best way to be especially 
> pampered. They usually got bored on the longer flights and a lot of the 
> passengers were assholes so they appreciated nice. 
> 
> Got to fly a brand new 777 once, was on its 3rd flight from US to UK. That 
> was really nice too. 
> 
> --R
> Sent from iPhone
> 


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Re: [MBZ] 747

[Buggered Benzmail via Mercedes]

Got to fly on 747s several times BOS-LHR and back on BA.  Usually business or 
first class over then cattle class back. That was hard. BA first class was VERY 
nice, starting in the lounge. Rode the upper deck a coupla times, back then the 
pilots left the door open so it was possible to wander in and chat a bit. That 
was fun. 

The food and drink in biz and first was quite pleasant and one could start in 
the lounge before the flight. Toward the end of when I was flying some of the 
lounges had showers to clean up after red-eyes, that was quite indulgent. 

I always found that chatting up the FAs was the best way to be especially 
pampered. They usually got bored on the longer flights and a lot of the 
passengers were assholes so they appreciated nice. 

Got to fly a brand new 777 once, was on its 3rd flight from US to UK. That was 
really nice too. 

--R
Sent from iPhone

> On Nov 22, 2017, at 3:11 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> I only flew in the main cabin on a -400 once.  DTW to KSI, a 14+ hour flight. 
> Wow. That was ugly.
> 
> I had to be in Seoul on short notice for a three letter agency, and it was 
> the quickest way to get there. Business and first class seats were sold out.  
> Military transport would have taken too long.
> 
> Made me appreciate those upper deck seats all the more.
> 
> -D
> 
>> On Nov 22, 2017, at 2:59 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> I got to fly back from Entebbe, Uganda to London on one.  British Airways.  
>> It was a full house.  Very snug.  I wanted to see the upper deck, but no 
>> dice.
>> 
>>> Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
>>> November 22, 2017 at 1:56 PM
>>> I’ve flown on most, if not all, of the variants. -200, -300, -400. As you 
>>> might expect, the -400s were the nicest. Got to make the trip across the 
>>> Pond to the UK in the bunk room on the top deck one time because my 
>>> business class seat back broke. Upper deck was full and I wasn’t about to 
>>> go sit with the common folk downstairs. The cabin crew asked if I could sit 
>>> in the crew bunk room since it wasn’t occupied (trans-Atlantic flight, only 
>>> one crew) and they said, “Sure!”
>>> 
>>> That was nice. Like having a private, albeit very small, suite.
>>> 
>>> They are big honking aircraft, that’s for sure. You should stand on the 
>>> tarmac under one some time to get an idea of their incredible size.
>>> 
>>> -D
>>> 
>> 
>> ___
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>> 
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>> 
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>> 
> 
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Re: [MBZ] 747

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

in 1993, it was all 3d virtual reality.   A friend of mine is an 
engineer at Boeing.  He cut his teeth reducing weight on the tail 
section of the 757.  I think he has been involved with the 767, 777 and 
787 as well as several years in the "black hole."   They musta thought 
he was valuable, because he is one of the very few who ever come out of 
the black hole.   I trust him because he was an A mechanic before he 
got his BS degree in Aero E.


I think it is all 3D virtual reality now, but faster and more refined.

Rick Knoble via Mercedes 
November 22, 2017 at 4:40 PM

I've always wondered, if they designed the SR-71 with slide rules and 
drafting tables in the late '50s and early '60s with no or very 
limited computing power, what do they have now...?


Rick

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Re: [MBZ] 747

[Rick Knoble via Mercedes]

>‎What a tribute to the guys in white shirts, >skinny black ties, and  pocket 
>protectors

I've always wondered, if they designed the SR-71 with slide rules and drafting 
tables in the late '50s and early '60s with no or very limited computing power, 
what do they have now...?

Rick
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Re: [MBZ] 747

[OK Don via Mercedes]

"Too many small parts flying in close formation".

On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 2:14 PM, Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> I was at an airport somewhere a while back and one was parked at a gate
> and standing in the terminal I was about nose on nose with it thru the
> window. Huge airplane.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Nov 22, 2017, at 1:56 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >
> > I’ve flown on most, if not all, of the variants. -200, -300, -400.  As
> you might expect, the -400s were the nicest.  Got to make the trip across
> the Pond to the UK in the bunk room on the top deck one time because my
> business class seat back broke.  Upper deck was full and I wasn’t about to
> go sit with the common folk downstairs.  The cabin crew asked if I could
> sit in the crew bunk room since it wasn’t occupied (trans-Atlantic flight,
> only one crew) and they said, “Sure!”
> >
> > That was nice.  Like having a private, albeit very small, suite.
> >
> > They are big honking aircraft, that’s for sure.  You should stand on the
> tarmac under one some time to get an idea of their incredible size.
> >
> > -D
> >
> >
> >> On Nov 22, 2017, at 2:47 PM, Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> I have always wanted to fly on one but does not look like I will get
> to. I guess they are probably used by some of the overseas airlines.
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> >
> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> >
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> >
>
>
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-- 
OK Don

*“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of
our people need it sorely on these accounts.”* – Mark Twain

"There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who
learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
for themselves."

WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
2013 F150, 18 mpg
2017 Subaru Legacy, 30 mpg
1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
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Re: [MBZ] 747

[Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes]

I was at an airport somewhere a while back and one was parked at a gate and 
standing in the terminal I was about nose on nose with it thru the window. Huge 
airplane.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 22, 2017, at 1:56 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> I’ve flown on most, if not all, of the variants. -200, -300, -400.  As you 
> might expect, the -400s were the nicest.  Got to make the trip across the 
> Pond to the UK in the bunk room on the top deck one time because my business 
> class seat back broke.  Upper deck was full and I wasn’t about to go sit with 
> the common folk downstairs.  The cabin crew asked if I could sit in the crew 
> bunk room since it wasn’t occupied (trans-Atlantic flight, only one crew) and 
> they said, “Sure!”
> 
> That was nice.  Like having a private, albeit very small, suite.
> 
> They are big honking aircraft, that’s for sure.  You should stand on the 
> tarmac under one some time to get an idea of their incredible size.
> 
> -D
> 
> 
>> On Nov 22, 2017, at 2:47 PM, Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> I have always wanted to fly on one but does not look like I will get to. I 
>> guess they are probably used by some of the overseas airlines.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> 
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Re: [MBZ] 747

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

I only flew in the main cabin on a -400 once.  DTW to KSI, a 14+ hour flight. 
Wow. That was ugly.

I had to be in Seoul on short notice for a three letter agency, and it was the 
quickest way to get there. Business and first class seats were sold out.  
Military transport would have taken too long.

Made me appreciate those upper deck seats all the more.

-D

> On Nov 22, 2017, at 2:59 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> I got to fly back from Entebbe, Uganda to London on one.  British Airways.  
> It was a full house.  Very snug.  I wanted to see the upper deck, but no dice.
> 
>> Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
>> November 22, 2017 at 1:56 PM
>> I’ve flown on most, if not all, of the variants. -200, -300, -400. As you 
>> might expect, the -400s were the nicest. Got to make the trip across the 
>> Pond to the UK in the bunk room on the top deck one time because my business 
>> class seat back broke. Upper deck was full and I wasn’t about to go sit with 
>> the common folk downstairs. The cabin crew asked if I could sit in the crew 
>> bunk room since it wasn’t occupied (trans-Atlantic flight, only one crew) 
>> and they said, “Sure!”
>> 
>> That was nice. Like having a private, albeit very small, suite.
>> 
>> They are big honking aircraft, that’s for sure. You should stand on the 
>> tarmac under one some time to get an idea of their incredible size.
>> 
>> -D
>> 
> 
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Re: [MBZ] 747

[Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes]

Just about a completely different aircraft I would imagine at least from an 
engine and cockpit standpoint 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 22, 2017, at 1:56 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> How did the new 737s differ from the first ones?
> 
> On Nov 22, 2017 2:52 PM, "Curley McLain via Mercedes" 
> wrote:
> 
>> I think the 747 is still being delivered to japan and china.  They jam
>> over 500 small seats in em.
>> 
>> During golden week there used to be 12000 JAL passengers a day leaving
>> Honolulu.  That is 24 flights a day, all 747s, all jammed full.  Plus
>> however many the other carriers hauled...
>> 
>> According the wikipedia:  September 2017, 1,536 aircraft had been built,
>> with 17 of the 747-8 variants remain on order.
>> 
>> So, they have 17 more to build/deliver, not counting any new orders.
>> 
>> The backlog of 737s is crazy.  It is almost half of the total number
>> delivered over 50 years!
>> 
>>> Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
>>> November 22, 2017 at 1:42 PM
>>> Still a lot of them in long haul air freight, and probably will be for
>>> many years to come.
>>> 
>>> -D
>>> 
>> 
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Re: [MBZ] 747

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

I got to fly back from Entebbe, Uganda to London on one.  British 
Airways.  It was a full house.  Very snug.  I wanted to see the upper 
deck, but no dice.



Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
November 22, 2017 at 1:56 PM
I’ve flown on most, if not all, of the variants. -200, -300, -400. As 
you might expect, the -400s were the nicest. Got to make the trip 
across the Pond to the UK in the bunk room on the top deck one time 
because my business class seat back broke. Upper deck was full and I 
wasn’t about to go sit with the common folk downstairs. The cabin crew 
asked if I could sit in the crew bunk room since it wasn’t occupied 
(trans-Atlantic flight, only one crew) and they said, “Sure!”


That was nice. Like having a private, albeit very small, suite.

They are big honking aircraft, that’s for sure. You should stand on 
the tarmac under one some time to get an idea of their incredible size.


-D



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Re: [MBZ] 747

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

I’ve flown on most, if not all, of the variants. -200, -300, -400.  As you 
might expect, the -400s were the nicest.  Got to make the trip across the Pond 
to the UK in the bunk room on the top deck one time because my business class 
seat back broke.  Upper deck was full and I wasn’t about to go sit with the 
common folk downstairs.  The cabin crew asked if I could sit in the crew bunk 
room since it wasn’t occupied (trans-Atlantic flight, only one crew) and they 
said, “Sure!”

That was nice.  Like having a private, albeit very small, suite.

They are big honking aircraft, that’s for sure.  You should stand on the tarmac 
under one some time to get an idea of their incredible size.

-D

 
> On Nov 22, 2017, at 2:47 PM, Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> I have always wanted to fly on one but does not look like I will get to. I 
> guess they are probably used by some of the overseas airlines.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone


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Re: [MBZ] 747

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

How did the new 737s differ from the first ones?

On Nov 22, 2017 2:52 PM, "Curley McLain via Mercedes" 
wrote:

> I think the 747 is still being delivered to japan and china.  They jam
> over 500 small seats in em.
>
> During golden week there used to be 12000 JAL passengers a day leaving
> Honolulu.  That is 24 flights a day, all 747s, all jammed full.  Plus
> however many the other carriers hauled...
>
> According the wikipedia:  September 2017, 1,536 aircraft had been built,
> with 17 of the 747-8 variants remain on order.
>
> So, they have 17 more to build/deliver, not counting any new orders.
>
> The backlog of 737s is crazy.  It is almost half of the total number
> delivered over 50 years!
>
>> Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
>> November 22, 2017 at 1:42 PM
>> Still a lot of them in long haul air freight, and probably will be for
>> many years to come.
>>
>> -D
>>
>
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Re: [MBZ] 747

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

I think the 747 is still being delivered to japan and china.  They jam 
over 500 small seats in em.


During golden week there used to be 12000 JAL passengers a day leaving 
Honolulu.  That is 24 flights a day, all 747s, all jammed full.  Plus 
however many the other carriers hauled...


According the wikipedia:  September 2017, 1,536 aircraft had been built, 
with 17 of the 747-8 variants remain on order.


So, they have 17 more to build/deliver, not counting any new orders.

The backlog of 737s is crazy.  It is almost half of the total number 
delivered over 50 years!

Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
November 22, 2017 at 1:42 PM
Still a lot of them in long haul air freight, and probably will be for 
many years to come.


-D


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Re: [MBZ] 747

[Randy Bennell via Mercedes]

On 22/11/2017 1:40 PM, Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes wrote:

It’s a shame all the airlines are retiring them.


Too expensive to fly. Newer planes use less fuel.
I see that A380's are already being retired.
RB

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Re: [MBZ] 747

[Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes]

I have always wanted to fly on one but does not look like I will get to. I 
guess they are probably used by some of the overseas airlines.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 22, 2017, at 1:42 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> Still a lot of them in long haul air freight, and probably will be for many 
> years to come.
> 
> -D
> 
> 
>> On Nov 22, 2017, at 2:40 PM, Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> It’s a shame all the airlines are retiring them.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Nov 22, 2017, at 1:37 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Next year marks the 50th year since the introduction of the Boeing 747.   
>>> The 737 is already over 50.
>>> 
>>> What a tribute to the guys in white shirts, skinny black ties, and pocket 
>>> protectors running slipsticks, that the KC135, the B52, the 737 and the 747 
>>> are all still viable airframes.  (Granted, there have been a lot of 
>>> updates.)
>>> 
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>>> 
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>>> 
>> 
>> 
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Re: [MBZ] 747

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

Still a lot of them in long haul air freight, and probably will be for many 
years to come.

-D


> On Nov 22, 2017, at 2:40 PM, Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> It’s a shame all the airlines are retiring them.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Nov 22, 2017, at 1:37 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Next year marks the 50th year since the introduction of the Boeing 747.   
>> The 737 is already over 50.
>> 
>> What a tribute to the guys in white shirts, skinny black ties, and pocket 
>> protectors running slipsticks, that the KC135, the B52, the 737 and the 747 
>> are all still viable airframes.  (Granted, there have been a lot of updates.)
>> 
>> ___
>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>> 
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>> 
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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>> 
> 
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Re: [MBZ] 747

[WILTON via Mercedes]

Indeed.  ATTABOYS to all of 'em!

W

- Original Message - 
From: "Curley McLain via Mercedes" 

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Cc: "Curley McLain" <126die...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 2:37 PM
Subject: [MBZ] 747




Next year marks the 50th year since the introduction of the Boeing 
747.   The 737 is already over 50.


What a tribute to the guys in white shirts, skinny black ties, and 
pocket protectors running slipsticks, that the KC135, the B52, the 737 
and the 747 are all still viable airframes.  (Granted, there have been a 
lot of updates.)


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Re: [MBZ] 747

[Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes]

It’s a shame all the airlines are retiring them.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 22, 2017, at 1:37 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Next year marks the 50th year since the introduction of the Boeing 747.   The 
> 737 is already over 50.
> 
> What a tribute to the guys in white shirts, skinny black ties, and pocket 
> protectors running slipsticks, that the KC135, the B52, the 737 and the 747 
> are all still viable airframes.  (Granted, there have been a lot of updates.)
> 
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Re: [MBZ] 747 empty weight

[RELNGSON]

 ...Basic weight about 400,000 lbs?...
 
I'm not going to take the VanCleef approach and try to claim that all this 
data is in my brain, so I went to the Boeing website. And you are right. The 
average weight is right around 400,000 pounds. Which I'm assuming , like 
other aircraft, this means no liquids on board. Water, fuel, drink mixers etc.

RLE
 
 




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Re: [MBZ] 747 empty weight

[Peter Frederick]

The original full up takeoff weight in 1969 was about 750,000, so  
400,000 empty is about right.


Peter

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