[meteorite-list] [Announced June 8, 2010] NWA 5400: Earth-Related Meteorite
Hello Greg H I have also spoken to a scientist about NWA 5400 and for the meteorite to be ejected from Earth from the 4 billion Thea event, it would have to make the CRE at 4Ga, if its related to that event. Also, like you said, your not a scientist nor am I, but if you could, it would be great if this scientist could explain the CRE to the List too :) less confusion. Shawn Alan IMCA 1633 eBaystore http://shop.ebay.com/photophlow/m.html?_nkw=_armrs=1_from=_ipg=_trksid=p4340 [meteorite-list] [Announced June 8, 2010] NWA 5400: Earth-Related Meteorite Greg Hupe gmhupe at htn.net Wed Sep 29 01:52:25 EDT 2010 Previous message: [meteorite-list] [Announced June 8, 2010] NWA 5400: Earth-Related Meteorite Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] Shawn, For now there are three scenarios which are spelt out between the two abstracts. While talking with one of the scientists earlier, he pointed out that it is very hard to make a comment similar to yours in regards to the CRE age of NWA 5400 and that he would explain it further to me in a way I can state it to the List. It is not as cut and dry as you put it. I will have to wait for his call as I am not a scientist and refer to experts when needed. Hope this helps with your patience. Best regards, Greg Greg Hupe The Hupe Collection NaturesVault (eBay) gmhupe at htn.net www.LunarRock.com IMCA 3163 Click here for my current eBay auctions: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault - Original Message - From: Shawn Alan photophlow at yahoo.com To: gmhupe at htn.net Cc: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 1:39 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] [Announced June 8, 2010] NWA 5400: Earth-Related Meteorite Hello Greg H and Listers, That's funny you brought that up because 10 mins ago I found that in the 2010 paper that had the CRE which I over looked, and this is what it says Noble Gases: Noble gases in two samples of NWA 5400 were analyzed by total melting and stepwise heating. The cosmic ray exposure age based on spal-logenic 3He and 21Ne is ~29 Ma, which is within the range of exposure ages of brachinites (3-57 Ma; [9]). The meteorite shows a large 129Xe excess (~3×10-10 cm3/g) derived from 129I decay (T1/2 = 16 Ma), indica-tive of its formation very early in Solar System history. Now if I am reading this correctly, this means that the CRE age puts the NWA 5400 at ~29 Ma. This would mean that this fragment couldn't have came from the 4 billion year old Thea impact that has been speculated? If that was the case, that this fragment came from ejecta from Earth, the CRE would have to 4 billion years old, but that's not the case. Further more in bother papers other ideas have been presented on where NWA 5400 which as follows. Alternatively, NWA 5400 may represent the ultramafic portion of an asteroidal parent body that witnessed similar processing to brachinites, but that evolved more slowly (larger?) and originated from a composi-tionally distinct reservoir, yet one with similarities to the planetary feeding zones of the Earth-Moon system. And Thus we are left with the possibility that NWA 5400 could be an ancient terrene meteorite, or else a sample from a different, differentiated Earth-like body. Now with the CRE proven and matched with other brachinites at less then 30 millions years this might contradict that NWA 5400 was ejected in space from the Thea impact, which in turn proves that NWA 5400 didn't directly come from Earth from that catastrophic event. Lastly its seems that brachinites have been the topic of interest and in the 2009 paper it stated that they formed 4.564 Ga. However, in the 2010 paper its stated that NWA 5400 is younger then brachinite. Now if NWA was formed before then, wouldn't that also contradict when Earth was formed if it came from Earth because if NWA 5400 is related to Earth, then the formation age should match up? Shawn Alan IMCA 1633 eBaystore http://shop.ebay.com/photophlow/m.html?_nkw=_armrs=1_from=_ipg=_trksid=p4340 [meteorite-list] [Announced June 8, 2010] NWA 5400: Earth-Related MeteoriteGreg Hupe gmhupe at htn.net Wed Sep 29 01:08:58 EDT 2010 Previous message: [meteorite-list] AD - New Stuff at KD Meteorites! Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] Shawn and Others: Since some people did not read or forgot what I wrote in my very first announcement of NWA 5400 on June 8, 2010, here it is to review. You will notice in the second abstract dated 2010 that the Cosmic Ray Exposure date HAS been determined. Now how scientists compile that data with other information is for them to study, ponder and write new abstracts. June 8, 2010 [Meteorite Central List] Dear List Members, I would like to
Re: [meteorite-list] [Announced June 8, 2010] NWA 5400: Earth-Related Meteorite
Shawn, It's a lot more complicated than that so we need to wait for this statement. I am willing to wait so there is nothing further to add at this point. Best regards, Greg - Original Message - From: Shawn Alan photoph...@yahoo.com To: gmh...@htn.net Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 2:12 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] [Announced June 8, 2010] NWA 5400: Earth-Related Meteorite Hello Greg H I have also spoken to a scientist about NWA 5400 and for the meteorite to be ejected from Earth from the 4 billion Thea event, it would have to make the CRE at 4Ga, if its related to that event. Also, like you said, your not a scientist nor am I, but if you could, it would be great if this scientist could explain the CRE to the List too :) less confusion. Shawn Alan IMCA 1633 eBaystore http://shop.ebay.com/photophlow/m.html?_nkw=_armrs=1_from=_ipg=_trksid=p4340 [meteorite-list] [Announced June 8, 2010] NWA 5400: Earth-Related Meteorite Greg Hupe gmhupe at htn.net Wed Sep 29 01:52:25 EDT 2010 Previous message: [meteorite-list] [Announced June 8, 2010] NWA 5400: Earth-Related Meteorite Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] Shawn, For now there are three scenarios which are spelt out between the two abstracts. While talking with one of the scientists earlier, he pointed out that it is very hard to make a comment similar to yours in regards to the CRE age of NWA 5400 and that he would explain it further to me in a way I can state it to the List. It is not as cut and dry as you put it. I will have to wait for his call as I am not a scientist and refer to experts when needed. Hope this helps with your patience. Best regards, Greg Greg Hupe The Hupe Collection NaturesVault (eBay) gmhupe at htn.net www.LunarRock.com IMCA 3163 Click here for my current eBay auctions: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault - Original Message - From: Shawn Alan photophlow at yahoo.com To: gmhupe at htn.net Cc: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 1:39 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] [Announced June 8, 2010] NWA 5400: Earth-Related Meteorite Hello Greg H and Listers, That's funny you brought that up because 10 mins ago I found that in the 2010 paper that had the CRE which I over looked, and this is what it says Noble Gases: Noble gases in two samples of NWA 5400 were analyzed by total melting and stepwise heating. The cosmic ray exposure age based on spal-logenic 3He and 21Ne is ~29 Ma, which is within the range of exposure ages of brachinites (3-57 Ma; [9]). The meteorite shows a large 129Xe excess (~3×10-10 cm3/g) derived from 129I decay (T1/2 = 16 Ma), indica-tive of its formation very early in Solar System history. Now if I am reading this correctly, this means that the CRE age puts the NWA 5400 at ~29 Ma. This would mean that this fragment couldn't have came from the 4 billion year old Thea impact that has been speculated? If that was the case, that this fragment came from ejecta from Earth, the CRE would have to 4 billion years old, but that's not the case. Further more in bother papers other ideas have been presented on where NWA 5400 which as follows. Alternatively, NWA 5400 may represent the ultramafic portion of an asteroidal parent body that witnessed similar processing to brachinites, but that evolved more slowly (larger?) and originated from a composi-tionally distinct reservoir, yet one with similarities to the planetary feeding zones of the Earth-Moon system. And Thus we are left with the possibility that NWA 5400 could be an ancient terrene meteorite, or else a sample from a different, differentiated Earth-like body. Now with the CRE proven and matched with other brachinites at less then 30 millions years this might contradict that NWA 5400 was ejected in space from the Thea impact, which in turn proves that NWA 5400 didn't directly come from Earth from that catastrophic event. Lastly its seems that brachinites have been the topic of interest and in the 2009 paper it stated that they formed 4.564 Ga. However, in the 2010 paper its stated that NWA 5400 is younger then brachinite. Now if NWA was formed before then, wouldn't that also contradict when Earth was formed if it came from Earth because if NWA 5400 is related to Earth, then the formation age should match up? Shawn Alan IMCA 1633 eBaystore http://shop.ebay.com/photophlow/m.html?_nkw=_armrs=1_from=_ipg=_trksid=p4340 [meteorite-list] [Announced June 8, 2010] NWA 5400: Earth-Related MeteoriteGreg Hupe gmhupe at htn.net Wed Sep 29 01:08:58 EDT 2010 Previous message: [meteorite-list] AD - New Stuff at KD Meteorites! Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] Shawn and Others: Since some people did not read or forgot what I wrote in my very first announcement
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite eBook Opinions Sought
Hello Kevin, I would let you know, that your book was the first meteorite book I had ever read. You inspired me to read Nininger´s Find a falling star. Since that time more than hundred books are following. So I can say, you have made me a meteorite book nut. Now time is come to reduce this collection to a small but fine definition. You can be sure, that your book fell in the catagory fine. Three thumbs up! (the reason, why I purchased your book, thanks Bob!) Kevin, why so modestly? take 35$ for your books. It is your work. In a couple of years collectors may pay 100 $ for your out of print book! ... and the print goes on... cu, Uwe -- GRATIS: Spider-Man 1-3 sowie 300 weitere Videos! Jetzt freischalten! http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/maxdome __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] [Announced June 8, 2010] NWA 5400: Earth-Related Meteorite
I think there is a misunderstanding on what the CRE dating represents. As Shawn pointed out, the abstract clearly states that The meteorite shows a large 129Xe excess (~3×10-10 cm3/g) derived from 129I decay (T1/2 = 16 Ma), indicative of its formation very early in Solar System history. That is a clear statement that the material is over 4 billion years old. The Cosmic Ray Exposure (CRE) denotes the period of time the material spent in space *after* a disruptive event. IOW, a parent body, very possibly formed during the impact event that formed the moon, was disrupted at some time in the past. The material from this parent body that eventually came to earth and became this meteorite has spent between 3 and 57 million years in space, which is typical of brachinites. Note the range of 54 million years. There are a number of variables in determining the CRE. Part of it is estimating the cosmic ray flux over that period of time and the other is the original depth of the material in the parent body and the diameter of the meteoroid that eventually landed on earth's surface. Cosmic rays penetrate rock only several kilometers, so a parent body with a diameter as little as two or three times this distance could effectively shield large quantities of its interior from CRE over billions of years. Such a body could last in a Main Belt like orbit for billions of years, be disrupted some time between 3 57 million years ago, sending fragments into earth crossing orbits, eventually bringing meteorites like NWA 5400 to earth's surface. A formation age of 4.5+ billion years and a CRE of only 3 -57 million years are perfectly consistent with each other for asteroidal meteorites. -- Richard Kowalski Full Moon Photography IMCA #1081 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] [Announced June 8, 2010] NWA 5400: Earth-Related Meteorite
The CRE age is the length of time this rock has been exposed in space to cosmic rays. That is, THIS rock, a chunk less than a meter or so, which the cosmic rays could penetrate (mostly) through. Now, if there was a 4 billion year old chunk that was fat enough, it would keep cosmic rays out of all but its surface layers. And if it then suffered a collision 30 ma and a chunk of its formerly protected interior floated around exposed to cosmic rays for 30 ma, it would be both Very Old (in formation age) and Very Young (in exposure age). All the Little Pieces of the solar system were made by breaking up Big Pieces... in stages. First, we started with Tiny Pieces and slapped them all together Very Quickly to make Big Pieces. And when all the Biggest Pieces were made and all the Lesser Pieces were accreted to them, all the remaining Lesser Pieces just... well, went to pieces, but very slowly, by bashing into each other once in a while. Rapid Assembly followed by a Long Slow Breakdown of the Bits, which is why after only four billion years, we still have lots of Bits. Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message - From: Shawn Alan photoph...@yahoo.com To: gmh...@htn.net Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 12:39 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] [Announced June 8,2010] NWA 5400: Earth-Related Meteorite Hello Greg H and Listers, That's funny you brought that up because 10 mins ago I found that in the 2010 paper that had the CRE which I over looked, and this is what it says Noble Gases: Noble gases in two samples of NWA 5400 were analyzed by total melting and stepwise heating. The cosmic ray exposure age based on spal-logenic 3He and 21Ne is ~29 Ma, which is within the range of exposure ages of brachinites (3-57 Ma; [9]). The meteorite shows a large 129Xe excess (~3×10-10 cm3/g) derived from 129I decay (T1/2 = 16 Ma), indica-tive of its formation very early in Solar System history. Now if I am reading this correctly, this means that the CRE age puts the NWA 5400 at ~29 Ma. This would mean that this fragment couldn't have came from the 4 billion year old Thea impact that has been speculated? If that was the case, that this fragment came from ejecta from Earth, the CRE would have to 4 billion years old, but that's not the case. Further more in bother papers other ideas have been presented on where NWA 5400 which as follows. Alternatively, NWA 5400 may represent the ultramafic portion of an asteroidal parent body that witnessed similar processing to brachinites, but that evolved more slowly (larger?) and originated from a composi-tionally distinct reservoir, yet one with similarities to the planetary feeding zones of the Earth-Moon system. And Thus we are left with the possibility that NWA 5400 could be an ancient terrene meteorite, or else a sample from a different, differentiated Earth-like body. Now with the CRE proven and matched with other brachinites at less then 30 millions years this might contradict that NWA 5400 was ejected in space from the Thea impact, which in turn proves that NWA 5400 didn't directly come from Earth from that catastrophic event. Lastly its seems that brachinites have been the topic of interest and in the 2009 paper it stated that they formed 4.564 Ga. However, in the 2010 paper its stated that NWA 5400 is younger then brachinite. Now if NWA was formed before then, wouldn't that also contradict when Earth was formed if it came from Earth because if NWA 5400 is related to Earth, then the formation age should match up? Shawn Alan IMCA 1633 eBaystore http://shop.ebay.com/photophlow/m.html?_nkw=_armrs=1_from=_ipg=_trksid=p4340 [meteorite-list] [Announced June 8, 2010] NWA 5400: Earth-Related MeteoriteGreg Hupe gmhupe at htn.net Wed Sep 29 01:08:58 EDT 2010 Previous message: [meteorite-list] AD - New Stuff at KD Meteorites! Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] Shawn and Others: Since some people did not read or forgot what I wrote in my very first announcement of NWA 5400 on June 8, 2010, here it is to review. You will notice in the second abstract dated 2010 that the Cosmic Ray Exposure date HAS been determined. Now how scientists compile that data with other information is for them to study, ponder and write new abstracts. June 8, 2010 [Meteorite Central List] Dear List Members, I would like to announce an important new meteorite that has been under intense analysis over the last two years by a select group of scientists from around the world... NWA 5400: Earth-Related Ungrouped Meteorite Northwest Africa 5400 may be a sample from a large asteroid or dwarf planet, which accreted in the early solar nebula in the vicinity of proto-Earth or Theia. NWA 5400 has oxygen isotope ratios indistinguishable from those of rocks from the Earth and the Moon, which plot
Re: [meteorite-list] Celtic coin depicting comet?
Dear All Looks intriguing. Is it a comet or is it lightning? The multiple tails suggest forked lightning to me. I will see if any of our numismatists can shed any light. Regards Peter Davidson Curator of Minerals Department of Natural Sciences National Museums Collection Centre 242 West Granton Road Edinburgh EH5 1JA Scotland Tel: 00 44 131 247 4283 E-mail: p.david...@nms.ac.uk -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Yinan Wang Sent: 29 September 2010 00:08 To: METEORITE LIST Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Celtic coin depicting comet? Better picture, of two of the coins. Ya, open to interpretation. http://pics.livejournal.com/thefossiladdict/pic/000b01z6 -Yinan On Tue, Sep 28, 2010 at 5:40 PM, tett t...@rogers.com wrote: Or a fish jumping out of the water. That would be cool should this turn out to be a shooting star or meteoroid. Cheers! Mike Tettenborn Also porud owner of some NWA 6292 On 28/09/2010 4:58 PM, Yinan Wang wrote: Just trying to get some opinions. I recently got a batch of celtic coins from a french hoard in trade for some fossils. Two of the coins seem to have some interesting symbolism; what appears to be a comet over two mountains. Or perhaps that my interpretation. See for yourself; http://pics.livejournal.com/thefossiladdict/pic/000azspb Feedback? I'll try to get some better pictures later. -Yinan __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list Shining Lights, the story of Scotlands lighthouses starts 15 October at the National Museum of Scotland. www.nms.ac.uk/shininglights National Museums Scotland, Scottish Charity, No. SC 011130 This communication is intended for the addressee(s) only. If you are not the addressee please inform the sender and delete the email from your system. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of National Museums Scotland. This message is subject to the Data Protection Act 1998 and Freedom of Information (Scotland) Act 2002. No liability is accepted for any harm that may be caused to your systems or data by this message. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] [Fwd: Meteorite eBook Opinions Sought]
--- Original Message Subject: Meteorite eBook Opinions Sought From:David Gunning davidgunn...@fairpoint.net Date:Wed, September 29, 2010 5:50 am To: Cc: davidgunn...@fairpoint.net - Hello, there, Kevin, You gotta do what you gotta do. For my druthers, I would not have bought a copy of your book if it were not available in hard copy printed form. And, yes, I would have paid an additional $5.00, or so, if necessary for a copy. When buying a book, a real live book, something I can hold in my hands, I don't quibble. A curious aside, for your information, might be that when I contacted the Maine State Library system for inter-library loans for any and all books on meteorites in the State of Maine, my search came up empty with no results of any such books available to the general reading public, here in Maine. In the past I've held gem material identification clinics as local fund raising events for my local library (I'm a retired gemologist). If I hold any future such fund raisers for my local library I will be doing so with the pre-condition that the funds raised must be dedicated and earmarked for the acquisition of your excellent book and other meteorite books, such as Space Rocks and meteorites from A to Z. Local public librarys are where it's at, from my view. In any event, I wish you and your excellent book much continuing and surely deserved success, whatever you decide to do. Best wishes, Dave Gunning __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - September 29, 2010
http://www.rocksfromspace.org/September_29_2010.html __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Planetary Pairings...some facts, some guesses
Hi Martin, list, NWA 3163 IS paired with NWA 4483 and 4881 (Korotev Met. Bull.). All the other unpaired from your compilations are correct. This being and, on another note, because NWA 4483 was quasi certified having been found in Algeria (Ralew and also Met. Bull. database), I guess it is also so with its two pairings? In Met. Bull. database, both NWA 3163 and NWA 4881 are reported coming from Algeria or Mauritania. Wouldn't it then be right to claim that all three come from Algeria ? Would this conclusion hold based on an as simple statement ? Not sure Let's now consider more in depth the above (rather simple) pairing issue. Here are the purchase circumstances for the three paired meteorites (MetBull database): NWA 3163: Purchased by Hupé in Ouarzazate, in 2005 NWA 4483: Purchased by Ralew in Erfoud, in 2006 NWA 4881: Purchased by Ralew in Ouarzazate, in 2007 This suggests that a Lunar found somewhere between Mauritania and Algeria or somewhere in between ? (these 2 countries do share a common border), pre 2005, was brought to Ourzazate where sold to two different dealers (probably by two different vendors) in an interval of two years, while the same meteorite was also sold (probably by a third person) to Ralew in Erfoud in 2006. Excellent example of a meteorite walking from one vendor to another, from one place to another, with time, to finally reach different dealers. Whatever it be, it is amazing that science is today able to (start to) reconstitute (partly) this meteorite and define its identity and status from an independent sophisticated analysis of the 3 NWA samples that wandered independently in space and time, ending up independently in the basket of different dealers who gave it for classification to different institutes, who eventually came into conclusion that it is the (probably) the very same meteorite. This is a real performance and confirms that Greg Hupé is right when he decides to have every fragment of an important meteorite probed for its O isotopic abundance. But...what a waste of time and money! Wouldn't it be far more simple that once a meteorite is found, all the fragments are assembled by the finder and sold (or distributed among other vendors) under the same provisional code until it is eventually classified ? We all know (from our early debating this topic) that this is totally illusory because money and personal interests would predominate over scientific interests. And, by the way, the almost happy end regarding this Lunar pairing issue was likely because it is a Lunar that is often readily classified by institutes.but this possibly suggests that most of the NWA ordinary chondrites (or even achondrites) will never get the chance to have their pairing status defined, simply because it is less interesting to study them. This perhaps explains the large number of NWA's found and their relatively low tkw's Large speculative debate Take care, Zelimir At 01:07 29/09/2010, you wrote: Though I wrote it privately... ;-) But especially the lunars and Martians, which are always checked, if they are paired, there one can see well, that there is no rule, that no stone comes alone from NWA. Some have immediate pairings, from some every few years another sample surfaces, others there suddenly after a long break of many years more comes to light. So far unpaired NWA-Martians are: NWA 817 NWA 856 NWA 998 NWA 1195 NWA 1669 NWA 1950 NWA 2046 NWA 2626 NWA 2646 NWA 2737 NWA 2800 NWA 3137 NWA 4222 NWA 4468 NWA 4480 NWA 4797 NWA 5029 NWA 5289 NWA 5718 NWA 5789 NWA 5990 NWA 6162 So from the 28 different NWA-Martian, there are only 6 which build up a pairing group. 22 are unpaired. Moon: Unpaired: NWA 482 NWA 2200 NWA 2998 NWA 3163 NWA 4734 NWA 4819 NWA 4884 NWA 4898 NWA 4932 NWA 5000 NWA 5153 NWA 5207 NWA 5744 (The NWA 773 - Anoual I lumped together) So there 13 out of 19 unpaired. Well, and as far as the general rareness of NWAs compared to historical finds/falls is concerned. To me it seems, that the NWAs in general - also if you take paired numbers together - have on average a much smaller tkw than non-desert-finds. Well one would need some ling winter-evenings to verify that. Though sometimes - tiny fragments, without any crust, non-magnetic achrondites - e.g. some of the Martians from the NWA 2975 - or if you remember the tiny peas of the NWA 1068 group, looking like sandstone. For me it's a sheer riddle, how you can find such pieces at all! Crawling on my knees through the field, I wouldn't find them. Or cause we just had it NWA 4485, NWA 4472 - all around a fat weathering crust, white like chalk. Who the heck would ever pick up such a stone from the field and suspect it to be a meteorite? It is truly amazing, what the hunters do down there. Best! Martin Prof. Zelimir Gabelica Université de Haute Alsace ENSCMu, Lab. GSEC, 3, Rue A. Werner, F-68093 Mulhouse Cedex, France Tel: +33 (0)3 89 33 68
Re: [meteorite-list] Planetary Pairings...some facts, some guesses
Hi Zelimir, no worries, was a simple typo, digittwiddler. I meant NWA 3136 not NWA 3163. NWA 3163/4483/4881 are paired and beautiful. who gave it for classification to different institutes, No, all three were classified by Irving, Kuehner et al. To us it makes often most sense, if we by our own suspect a pairing, to give it there, where the classification of the first stone was made. Anyway the top classifiers of the world are in close contact which each-other. Lunars and Martians are so rare, but also so important, that possible pairings will be always cleared. But it wouldn't make much sense, to give such a stone to an university, without any experiences with such materials or to a college - because at best they would end anyway again in the labs, of those, who had already all lunars in their hands - and that is good so. The whole NWA 5400 debate would e.g. have been unnecessary, if the suspected pairings would have been handed in there, where 5400 was classified. Best! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: Zelimir Gabelica [mailto:zelimir.gabel...@uha.fr] Gesendet: Mittwoch, 29. September 2010 13:25 An: Martin Altmann; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Planetary Pairings...some facts, some guesses Hi Martin, list, NWA 3163 IS paired with NWA 4483 and 4881 (Korotev Met. Bull.). All the other unpaired from your compilations are correct. This being and, on another note, because NWA 4483 was quasi certified having been found in Algeria (Ralew and also Met. Bull. database), I guess it is also so with its two pairings? In Met. Bull. database, both NWA 3163 and NWA 4881 are reported coming from Algeria or Mauritania. Wouldn't it then be right to claim that all three come from Algeria ? Would this conclusion hold based on an as simple statement ? Not sure Let's now consider more in depth the above (rather simple) pairing issue. Here are the purchase circumstances for the three paired meteorites (MetBull database): NWA 3163: Purchased by Hupé in Ouarzazate, in 2005 NWA 4483: Purchased by Ralew in Erfoud, in 2006 NWA 4881: Purchased by Ralew in Ouarzazate, in 2007 This suggests that a Lunar found somewhere between Mauritania and Algeria or somewhere in between ? (these 2 countries do share a common border), pre 2005, was brought to Ourzazate where sold to two different dealers (probably by two different vendors) in an interval of two years, while the same meteorite was also sold (probably by a third person) to Ralew in Erfoud in 2006. Excellent example of a meteorite walking from one vendor to another, from one place to another, with time, to finally reach different dealers. Whatever it be, it is amazing that science is today able to (start to) reconstitute (partly) this meteorite and define its identity and status from an independent sophisticated analysis of the 3 NWA samples that wandered independently in space and time, ending up independently in the basket of different dealers who gave it for classification to different institutes, who eventually came into conclusion that it is the (probably) the very same meteorite. This is a real performance and confirms that Greg Hupé is right when he decides to have every fragment of an important meteorite probed for its O isotopic abundance. But...what a waste of time and money! Wouldn't it be far more simple that once a meteorite is found, all the fragments are assembled by the finder and sold (or distributed among other vendors) under the same provisional code until it is eventually classified ? We all know (from our early debating this topic) that this is totally illusory because money and personal interests would predominate over scientific interests. And, by the way, the almost happy end regarding this Lunar pairing issue was likely because it is a Lunar that is often readily classified by institutes.but this possibly suggests that most of the NWA ordinary chondrites (or even achondrites) will never get the chance to have their pairing status defined, simply because it is less interesting to study them. This perhaps explains the large number of NWA's found and their relatively low tkw's Large speculative debate Take care, Zelimir At 01:07 29/09/2010, you wrote: Though I wrote it privately... ;-) But especially the lunars and Martians, which are always checked, if they are paired, there one can see well, that there is no rule, that no stone comes alone from NWA. Some have immediate pairings, from some every few years another sample surfaces, others there suddenly after a long break of many years more comes to light. So far unpaired NWA-Martians are: NWA 817 NWA 856 NWA 998 NWA 1195 NWA 1669 NWA 1950 NWA 2046 NWA 2626 NWA 2646 NWA 2737 NWA 2800 NWA 3137 NWA 4222 NWA 4468 NWA 4480 NWA 4797 NWA 5029 NWA 5289 NWA 5718 NWA 5789 NWA 5990 NWA 6162 So from the 28 different NWA-Martian, there are only 6 which build up a pairing group. 22 are unpaired. Moon:
Re: [meteorite-list] Planetary Pairings...some facts, some guesses
Hello Martin, Zelimir and List, Martin wrote: no worries, was a simple typo, digittwiddler. I meant NWA 3136 not NWA 3163. It's alright, Martin. I made the same typo when I first mentioned NWA 4472/4483. Easy to do when we have so many classification numbers under our belts. As for NWA 5400 which I purchased in Morocco as a single stone and took samples from two other rocks that 'appeared' similar, these were all analyzed by the same scientists and lab. The two samples turned out to be 'just' brachinites like I have already pointed out last week in a previous email. And, No, not from the same source as the NWA 5363 box of rocks. Lets all quit worrying about that story, the same scientists are trying to get all of that mess figured out as we speak. They have already analyzed several samples from supposed pairings and have found them not to be paired to NWA 5400 as Peter Marmet has also pointed out. NWA 6292 turns out to be paired, way cool! As I pointed out in an earlier email, ...if pairings are determined, I welcome that, but be patient and let the qualified scientists do their jobs! This whole discussion is like a broken record...just keeps repeating itself! Best regards, Greg Greg Hupe The Hupe Collection NaturesVault (eBay) gmh...@htn.net www.LunarRock.com IMCA 3163 Click here for my current eBay auctions: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault - Original Message - From: Martin Altmann altm...@meteorite-martin.de To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 8:32 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Planetary Pairings...some facts, some guesses Hi Zelimir, no worries, was a simple typo, digittwiddler. I meant NWA 3136 not NWA 3163. NWA 3163/4483/4881 are paired and beautiful. who gave it for classification to different institutes, No, all three were classified by Irving, Kuehner et al. To us it makes often most sense, if we by our own suspect a pairing, to give it there, where the classification of the first stone was made. Anyway the top classifiers of the world are in close contact which each-other. Lunars and Martians are so rare, but also so important, that possible pairings will be always cleared. But it wouldn't make much sense, to give such a stone to an university, without any experiences with such materials or to a college - because at best they would end anyway again in the labs, of those, who had already all lunars in their hands - and that is good so. The whole NWA 5400 debate would e.g. have been unnecessary, if the suspected pairings would have been handed in there, where 5400 was classified. Best! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: Zelimir Gabelica [mailto:zelimir.gabel...@uha.fr] Gesendet: Mittwoch, 29. September 2010 13:25 An: Martin Altmann; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Planetary Pairings...some facts, some guesses Hi Martin, list, NWA 3163 IS paired with NWA 4483 and 4881 (Korotev Met. Bull.). All the other unpaired from your compilations are correct. This being and, on another note, because NWA 4483 was quasi certified having been found in Algeria (Ralew and also Met. Bull. database), I guess it is also so with its two pairings? In Met. Bull. database, both NWA 3163 and NWA 4881 are reported coming from Algeria or Mauritania. Wouldn't it then be right to claim that all three come from Algeria ? Would this conclusion hold based on an as simple statement ? Not sure Let's now consider more in depth the above (rather simple) pairing issue. Here are the purchase circumstances for the three paired meteorites (MetBull database): NWA 3163: Purchased by Hupé in Ouarzazate, in 2005 NWA 4483: Purchased by Ralew in Erfoud, in 2006 NWA 4881: Purchased by Ralew in Ouarzazate, in 2007 This suggests that a Lunar found somewhere between Mauritania and Algeria or somewhere in between ? (these 2 countries do share a common border), pre 2005, was brought to Ourzazate where sold to two different dealers (probably by two different vendors) in an interval of two years, while the same meteorite was also sold (probably by a third person) to Ralew in Erfoud in 2006. Excellent example of a meteorite walking from one vendor to another, from one place to another, with time, to finally reach different dealers. Whatever it be, it is amazing that science is today able to (start to) reconstitute (partly) this meteorite and define its identity and status from an independent sophisticated analysis of the 3 NWA samples that wandered independently in space and time, ending up independently in the basket of different dealers who gave it for classification to different institutes, who eventually came into conclusion that it is the (probably) the very same meteorite. This is a real performance and confirms that Greg Hupé is right when he decides to have every fragment of an important meteorite probed for its O isotopic abundance. But...what a waste of
[meteorite-list] Fwd: [IMCA] Candidates for the 2010 Elections
Hi, With apologies for not having paid attention I was really disappointed to just learn of Norbert moving on. Norbert has indeed provided dedicated service to our community. Armed with an ethical compass, intelligence and sensitivity, I am so grateful, Norbert, for your ceaseless efforts on our behalf throughout your tenure. Most sincerely, Darryl NOTE: There is so much agenda-based, sucking-up on this list when it comes to meting out praise, I would like to be transparent: I have sold Norbert perhaps three meteorites over the years. Begin forwarded message: From: Maria Haas dragons...@msn.com Date: September 29, 2010 1:32:18 AM EDT To: linton...@earthlink.net Cc: IMCA Mailing List i...@imcamail.de Subject: RE: [IMCA] Candidates for the 2010 Elections Hello Linton and All, Great question, Linton, and a fine opportunity to explain how the voting works. Three current directors have terms ending this year but only two are re-running. It is has been my pleasure to have worked under the capable leadership of Norbert Classen, who is leaving the board this year after many years of dedicated service to the meteorite community. I will announce the official end of the campaign on Friday, October 1, and the official start of voting Saturday, October 2nd. We will all be sending our votes to a special email address set up specifically for voting and I will let you know what that address is when voting starts. It is very important that we vote for three and only three candidates from the list below: Anne Black, Colorado, USA John Cabassi, California, USA Greg Catterton, North Carolina, USA Robert Falls, Colorado, USA Jeff Kuyken, Australia Howard McLean, Indiana, USA Pete Shugar, Texas, USA There are a few things we need from you to verify you and your vote. You must sign your vote with your full name and membership number and your vote must be sent from the email address we have on file for you. The email with which you receive IMCA mailing list mail is the address we have. Your votes have been sent properly when you receive a return email that reads: Your vote has been received. Thank you for your participation in the 2010 IMCA Board Elections. Best regards, IMCA Nominations Elections Committee Please don't hesitate to ask questions. Best wishes, Maria Haas Treasurer I.M.C.A., Inc. www.IMCA.cc Member #5520 From: linton...@earthlink.net To: dragons...@msn.com CC: i...@imcamail.de Subject: Re: [IMCA] Candidates for the 2010 Elections Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 11:37:40 -0700 Hi Maria. I'm catching up on all the recent election discussion, having just returned from a couple weeks on the road (including the Denver show). From Three of our directors have terms ending this year ..., I gather we are voting for THREE board members? Just wanted to clarify this, as I'm not 100% sure. I think we have a fine group of candidates and I'm wishing I could vote for more than three. ;^) Linton Rohr - #7571 - Original Message - From: Maria Haas To: IMCA Mailing List Sent: Friday, September 17, 2010 9:06 PM Subject: [IMCA] Candidates for the 2010 Elections Candidates for the 2010 Elections September comes around pretty quickly every year and in the IMCA that means we have prepared for the yearly elections. Three of our directors have terms ending this year and two have decided to re-run for a position. The three whose terms are ending are Norbert Classen, Anne Black, and Jeff Kuyken. This year we say goodbye to our reigning president, Norbert Classen, who is retiring, and Anne Black and Jeff Kuyken have decided to re-run for board positions. It is my pleasure to announce our 2010 Candidates for the Board of Directors. Anne Black, Colorado, USA John Cabassi, California, USA Greg Catterton, North Carolina, USA Robert Falls, Colorado, USA Jeff Kuyken, Australia Howard McLean, Indiana, USA Pete Shugar, Texas, USA The Campaign will start September 17, 2010 at 12:00 midnight, Eastern Time. That mean's it started a few minutes ago! Each candidate will do their best to tell the membership through the IMCA mailing list only, what they have to offer the membership should they win a position on the Board of Directors. Questions directed to the candidates are welcome. The Campaign will end October 1, 2010 at 12:00 midnight, Eastern Time. Voting will start October 2, 2010 at 12:00 midnight, Eastern Time. We’ll send out another email with details about voting, including a special address to which you can send your vote, on October 2nd. Best of luck to our candidates! Best wishes, Maria Haas Treasurer I.M.C.A., Inc. www.IMCA.cc Member #5520 ___ IMCA mailing list i...@imcamail.de http://lists.imcamail.de/mailman/listinfo/imca ___ IMCA mailing list i...@imcamail.de http://lists.imcamail.de/mailman/listinfo/imca
Re: [meteorite-list] [IMCA] Candidates for the 2010 Elections
Darryl and List, I most emphatically agree with your praise of Norbert. From a personal point of view, Norbert's dedication to and performance in his position sets a standard that exceeds the norm. [no pun intended] Thank you Norbert. Jerry Flaherty On Sep 29, 2010, at 8:35 AM, Darryl Pitt wrote: Hi, With apologies for not having paid attention I was really disappointed to just learn of Norbert moving on. Norbert has indeed provided dedicated service to our community. Armed with an ethical compass, intelligence and sensitivity, I am so grateful, Norbert, for your ceaseless efforts on our behalf throughout your tenure. Most sincerely, Darryl NOTE: There is so much agenda-based, sucking-up on this list when it comes to meting out praise, I would like to be transparent: I have sold Norbert perhaps three meteorites over the years. Begin forwarded message: From: Maria Haas dragons...@msn.com Date: September 29, 2010 1:32:18 AM EDT To: linton...@earthlink.net Cc: IMCA Mailing List i...@imcamail.de Subject: RE: [IMCA] Candidates for the 2010 Elections Hello Linton and All, Great question, Linton, and a fine opportunity to explain how the voting works. Three current directors have terms ending this year but only two are re-running. It is has been my pleasure to have worked under the capable leadership of Norbert Classen, who is leaving the board this year after many years of dedicated service to the meteorite community. I will announce the official end of the campaign on Friday, October 1, and the official start of voting Saturday, October 2nd. We will all be sending our votes to a special email address set up specifically for voting and I will let you know what that address is when voting starts. It is very important that we vote for three and only three candidates from the list below: Anne Black, Colorado, USA John Cabassi, California, USA Greg Catterton, North Carolina, USA Robert Falls, Colorado, USA Jeff Kuyken, Australia Howard McLean, Indiana, USA Pete Shugar, Texas, USA There are a few things we need from you to verify you and your vote. You must sign your vote with your full name and membership number and your vote must be sent from the email address we have on file for you. The email with which you receive IMCA mailing list mail is the address we have. Your votes have been sent properly when you receive a return email that reads: Your vote has been received. Thank you for your participation in the 2010 IMCA Board Elections. Best regards, IMCA Nominations Elections Committee Please don't hesitate to ask questions. Best wishes, Maria Haas Treasurer I.M.C.A., Inc. www.IMCA.cc Member #5520 From: linton...@earthlink.net To: dragons...@msn.com CC: i...@imcamail.de Subject: Re: [IMCA] Candidates for the 2010 Elections Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 11:37:40 -0700 Hi Maria. I'm catching up on all the recent election discussion, having just returned from a couple weeks on the road (including the Denver show). From Three of our directors have terms ending this year ..., I gather we are voting for THREE board members? Just wanted to clarify this, as I'm not 100% sure. I think we have a fine group of candidates and I'm wishing I could vote for more than three. ;^) Linton Rohr - #7571 - Original Message - From: Maria Haas To: IMCA Mailing List Sent: Friday, September 17, 2010 9:06 PM Subject: [IMCA] Candidates for the 2010 Elections Candidates for the 2010 Elections September comes around pretty quickly every year and in the IMCA that means we have prepared for the yearly elections. Three of our directors have terms ending this year and two have decided to re-run for a position. The three whose terms are ending are Norbert Classen, Anne Black, and Jeff Kuyken. This year we say goodbye to our reigning president, Norbert Classen, who is retiring, and Anne Black and Jeff Kuyken have decided to re-run for board positions. It is my pleasure to announce our 2010 Candidates for the Board of Directors. Anne Black, Colorado, USA John Cabassi, California, USA Greg Catterton, North Carolina, USA Robert Falls, Colorado, USA Jeff Kuyken, Australia Howard McLean, Indiana, USA Pete Shugar, Texas, USA The Campaign will start September 17, 2010 at 12:00 midnight, Eastern Time. That mean's it started a few minutes ago! Each candidate will do their best to tell the membership through the IMCA mailing list only, what they have to offer the membership should they win a position on the Board of Directors. Questions directed to the candidates are welcome. The Campaign will end October 1, 2010 at 12:00 midnight, Eastern Time. Voting will start October 2, 2010 at 12:00 midnight, Eastern Time. We’ll send out another email with details about voting, including a special address to which you can send your vote, on October
Re: [meteorite-list] [IMCA] Candidates for the 2010 Elections
Dear List, I was privileged to serve with Norbert as an officer on the board of directors for the IMCA. During these three years, I observed how diligent, hard working and fair Norbert is. He is a founding member and worked tirelessly to advance the IMCA. He devoted probably thousands of hours without pay or personal gain. He did it for the love of meteorites. Even if you are not an IMCA member, you should be made aware of the hard work and dedication Norbert put towards this great avocation. He is a true credit to the meteorite community and reflects kindly in environment that isn't always that friendly or clear cut. I wish him the best, Adam __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 !
I meant to writeIf monetary terms is the reason for one's collecting meteorites, this is not crucial to science! -R - Original Message - From: Richard Montgomery rickm...@earthlink.net To: Thunder Stone stanleygr...@hotmail.com; countde...@earthlink.net; cdtuc...@cox.net; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; starsinthed...@aol.com Sent: Monday, September 27, 2010 7:30 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! Carl, this particular extraordinary meteorite, NWA5400, is unique BECAUSE of the TFL O-analysis. This has sounded the beckoning call for exta-ordinary analysis from the position of SCIENTIFIC value, not $$ collector value. This is where the distinction is stark. We will/should-be sure to examine the reason for specific isotope analysis when science calls for it. Right? After all, a round-trip to Earth is rare. If monetary terms is the reason for one's collecting meteorites, this is crucial to science. If someone wants to take it a step further and involve $$, it only makes sense to be sure of one's investment authenticity. -Richard Montgomery - Original Message - From: Thunder Stone stanleygr...@hotmail.com To: countde...@earthlink.net; cdtuc...@cox.net; rickm...@earthlink.net; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; starsinthed...@aol.com Sent: Monday, September 27, 2010 3:48 PM Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! Wow - this is making my head spin. It is my understanding that the O isotope data is necessary to show the relationship to the early earth-type rocks; it has to fall on the TFL. I would think this is necessary to prove a pairing to NWA 5400. Until then, it is not 100% certain. The fact that NWA 6292 IS paired to 5400 suggests that there could be more of this unique meteorite out there. Just my thoughts, Greg S. Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 15:31:46 -0700 From: countde...@earthlink.net To: cdtuc...@cox.net; rickm...@earthlink.net; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; starsinthed...@aol.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! Carl and List, Carl has plaintively asked: Are we witnessing the demise of the collector market for meteorites here? Am I really reading that a certain Scientist's word is not good enough for some collectors now? Am I really reading that O isotopes are now needed to prove pairings for the collector market as well as for the Scientific studies? Am I really reading that a certain dealers word trumps the word of a Scientist? Am I really reading that these things are bought as investments? And as I was addressed..I will answer.. Carl, what you are seeing is not the demise, but the developing seriousness and maturity of the COLLECTOR market in high end meteorites. Yes, some scientist's work is not good enough (maybe thorough enough would be more artfully put) for some collectors. No, gas analysis are no more needed, I suppose, than any other parameter..it's just that isotopes are so definitive when calling a close pairing. I, for one, will spend more for a meteorite that has all the pedigree than one that lacks a fingerprint that, if known, just might make it something other than what it is purported to be. Huge mistakes have been made. I have seen criticism of a scientist's report for cause...but I have only once seen a dealer's word attempt to negate a finding of a scientist. The recent angrite argument comes to mind. And...heaven forbid... you ARE seeing meteorites bought with the intention of not only collecting them for whatever makes the buyer's nipples hard...historic and scientific importance, additional scientific study, appearance, rarity, but his additional satisfaction in acquiring an object of virtue that provides an opportunity to pay for itself and provide a haven for disposable cash. I look upon the collection, study and hunt for meteorites as the most fun I have had for my money with my clothes on in a long time. Best to you and all, Count Deiro IMCA 3536 -Original Message- From: cdtuc...@cox.net Sent: Sep 27, 2010 8:58 AM To: Richard Montgomery , 'Meteorite-list List' , countde...@earthlink.net, Tom P. Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! List, Are we witnessing the demise of the collector market for meteorites here? Am I really reading that a certain Scientist's word is not good enough for some collectors now? Am I really reading that O isotopes are now needed to prove pairings for the collector market as well as for the Scientific studies? Am I really reading that a certain dealers word trumps the word of a Scientist? Am I really reading that these things are bought as investments? Well, I guess anyone or institution with a whole pristine uncut and unstudied meteorite in his collection really just has a rock. Because it could not possibly be legitimate or it would have
Re: [meteorite-list] pairing and collecting
David, You make some very interesting and thought provoking points here. I'm sure I will be pondering this for some time but what immediately hit home was your point about NWA 5400 and how it may be an Earthite. As I have followed meteoritic's for the past 20 years in a very novice capacity. The one thing I've noticed is it's study has had an evolution of it's own. By that I mean it started out rather simple by type. Then the types grew. By now there are a bunch of different types. Almahata Sitta itself has taught us a bunch and really changed my thinking especially as it relates to pairing in that pairing is very odd. Nothing matches and yet they must be paired because they fell together. But NWA 5400 seems to be a brachinite with Earths O isotopes. It seems like lately these O isotopes have taken over in terms of Categorizing these little aliens. The part that makes this confusing is it seems that many types of meteorites are turning out to have the Earths O isotopes. The Moon, NWA 5400 and Aubrites just to name a few. So how then will this ever sort out? What makes NWA 5400 more of an Earthite than an aubrite? Additionally, I understand that this may be due to a zoning of some kind whereby anything that formed within a certain zone is going to have the same O isotopes as Earth. This I ask because Aubrites seem to be more like Earth than the Brachinite -like class of NWA 5400. The metal alone found within NWA 5400 seems to rule Earth out as it's possible origin? And unless the Earth was hit by a body that also had Earth's same O isotopes , wouldn't the O isotopes within NWA 5400 be different that Earths? I mean it should have a mixture of Earth and the body that hit it as an end result.? This too makes it very hard to understand why these assertions are made. As was pointed out earlier so far there are only two abstracts about NWA 5400 . If you don't mind my asking, What are your thoughts on this? And to throw one more question in there. I have continually made the point that NWA 5400 has pairings based on the fact that Mbarak had a box full of the same rocks. It seems to me it would be very difficult to believe that two brachinite like meteorites would have been found and were being sold but were from two different falls. Common sense tells me that these have got to be the same. Why would this fall be any different than any other? Like rocks fall together in a fall. Thank you. Carl -- Carl or Debbie Esparza Meteoritemax David R. Vann drv...@sas.upenn.edu wrote: I'd like to make a couple of observations about both pairing and collecting. Several comments have been made regarding preserving the value of a meterorite, with reference to pairings decreasing value, etc. I don't know why you collect, heck, I don't even know why I collect things. It is apparently a part of human nature (for at least some) . Sure, we rationalize it by saying it is a beautiful thing, it has an interesting story, etc., but in the final analysis, these things are not necessities. Somewhere along the line, I think it was with baseball cards, the rarity of some items, combined with an increasing market from an expnading population, drove the price for these items out of sight. And thus, the concept of investibles had its genesis. This is a marketing ploy to get you to buy things. However, if you think that collectible items are an investment with a monetary return, you need to think very, very carefully about this idea. The vast majority of collectible items will not make you rich. An example: a friend bought a Saint Gaudens gold coin a while back. Whereas his stocks declined, he ultimately sold the coin for twice what he paid - so he thought he made out. The actual rate of return was just about 3 1/2 percent. Guess how much inflation went up during that time? I have watched many types of collectible investments over the years. Most actually lose money after you account for inflation. Many of them return the same buying power you had when they were bought. A few, very few, bring a great return on investment. Where do meteorites fall? I doubt that you will make much money on them, Bob Haag nonwithstanding. There is always a point in a new market where there is money to be made, but after that, not so much. As a dealer, can you make a living? Quite possibly, yes - that can be answered by others. Will there be a return as an investment - I seriously doubt it. No collector should collect because he or she expects a return on investment - you should collect because you like the item, like looking at it, like its story/history, or as Martin said, because you can be involved in some way with the science. In other words, for the pleasure brought to you by the possession of the object. If you make money on it, well then, that's a great bonus. But it should never be the purpose, as you will be disappointed. I'm sure many on this list can add
Re: [meteorite-list] NWA5400 redux - a long explanation
Hi David, Carl and List, Thanks for the detailed explanation David. :) I recall reading something about catastrophic events that can reset the CRE of some materials. Maybe I am not remembering correctly. Is it possible that a cataclysmic event could shock/alter a material to such a degree that it would scramble the isotopes contained within? I also seem to recall something about the radioactive isotopes of Aluminum (?) somehow figuring into this reset equation. Can someone clear me up on this? What I am getting at, in relation to NWA 5400/Thea impact theories is - the event in question was catastrophic on every level. Would this complicate the analysis of determining any age or origin for this material? Personally, I find any meteorite that plots along the terrestrial fractionation line to be interesting, in that it stands apart from most other types of meteorites which do not. So NWA 5400 is interesting, regardless of what it is or is not paired with. So, if NWA 5400 is a brachinite, or is related to brachinites, then it visually looks quite different from the majority of brachinites I have seen. Going strictly by aesthetics, 5400 seems to have more in common with enstatite meteorites than brachinites. Is it just me? Best regards, MikeG -- Mike Gilmer - Galactic Stone Ironworks Meteorites Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone News Feed - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 Twitter - http://twitter.com/galacticstone EOM - http://www.encyclopedia-of-meteorites.com/collection.aspx?id=1564 --- On 9/28/10, drv...@sas.upenn.edu drv...@sas.upenn.edu wrote: Carl: I am glad that I provoked thought - that is in my mandate as an educator...;) I will try to answer your questions, albeit perhaps not in order, and I hope I can explain. First, you ask about Mbarak's box of rocks, aren't they likely paired? Well, it is very unlikely that two different brachinites fell in the same spot. Not impossible, but very unlikely. Therefore, it seems likely that the rocks are from the same fall if found in the same area. Second, you have several questions about O isotopes. In the case of NWA5400 pairings, it is important because all agree that it is a brachinite (more on this below); what makes it unusual is that is has different O isotopes than other brachinites, so any rocks that have similar O isotopes are likely from the same meteoroid. Oxygen isotopes haven't really taken over the pairing question; as has already been noted, many different parameters must converge before two rocks can be paired. What's up with the O isotope thing anyway? Oxygen has three 'isotopes' - it has three different weights, based on the number of neutrons in its nucleus. The weights, relative to hydrogen, are 16, 16 and 18. Theoretically, as oxygen is formed in the fusion reactions of the Sun and expelled, or trapped from molecules drifting in interstellar space, these three isotopes begin to sort out in the solar wind. The gravitational attraction of the lighter isotope, 16O, is, naturally, less than the others. Thus, the solar wind can more easily push the lighter isotope farther out into space. Consequently, there is a gradient of increasing amounts of 16O relative to 18O as you go farther out. (same logic appllies to 17O, of course). Since the sun continues to form oxygen, the system is continually replenished, and is thus arguably at a steady state (or there would be the complication that we don't know the gradient 4.5 billion years ago). This theoretical concept is borne out by spectrographic measurements in space, so it seems to work. Within these gradients, planets formed. When, for instance, magnesium reacts with silicon and oxygen to form magnesium silicate (e.g. enstatite), it clearly would condense with the distribution of oxygen isotopes where it condensed. This is the basis for the idea that oxygen isotopes record how far away from the Sun the matter condensed. Naturally, there are complications, which I may gert back to before I finish here. Almost startlingly, when the first bunch of meteorites were analyzed, they showed a pattern consistent with this expectation. THus, oxygen isotopes are used to *infer* whereabouts the sample originated, at least within a few million miles or so. Now, as to NWA5400; maybe only two abstracts have been publshed. Keep in mind that it can take a while for things to get published, and it can take quite a while to complete these analyses and get them right. But, I would like to say, the two abstracts published say quite a lot, and reflect a great deal of analyses already performed. Tony Irvings group has, in my opinion produced as musch useful information as most of what gets published in the magazine Science. The problem is that
[meteorite-list] Twice Blessed Yankee Lobsterman
Hi Rob Elton, Believe it or not, guys, I was well aware that the two Round Pond meteorites had not been mentioned with official citations. You think I would want to waste peoples time without first getting the factual lay of an issue? That's not my style. I first learned about the Round Pond meteorites on a web site hosted by the Maine Geological Survey. Unless I'm mistaken that information is offered by the Maine Geological Survey without qualifiers. Because of the source, I took the information at face value, statistically improbable or not. There is another Maine meteorite report that references a 321 lb. metallic stone having been found on the shore of Great Chebeague Island in Casco Bay, in 1973. As I lived on a neighboring island in Casco Bay for five years and never heard of it PLUS the lack of mention by the Maine Geological Survey in any of their public literature, I did not make mention of that particular meteorite in my original query to the list. I mean, how on earth could an islander hide a 321 lb. metallic stone meteorite. . .without half the other islanders knowing about it? Talk about your statistical improbabilities. . . ! Now, if it turns-out that the story of the lobsterman meteorite finder was either factually incorrect or a creative fabrication on the part of the State of Maine and the Maine Geological Survey I would suggest to all interested parties, from the Governor on down, that the citizens of Maine, myself included, deserve better than to be fibbed to in such a bald faced manner. I'd like to know the Maine peat bog location you've referenced, Elton, if it's not too much trouble. Best wishes, Dave Gunning __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] NWA 5400 Age Origin Processes
Dear List Members, As promised, here is a basic summary of conversations I have had with Dr. Tony Irving who is the lead investigator of NWA 5400 and possible pairings. Also keep in mind that analysis is ongoing by a number of scientists and labs from around the world, which will eventually produce informative and thought-provoking publications. The distinction must be made between formation age on some probably long-destroyed planetary body, and the time of resampling of any leftover chunks that presumably are still parked in orbit somewhere in the main asteroid belt. This distinction applies to many ancient achondrites, including typical brachinites, NWA 5400 and angrites. All have very ancient formation ages 4.5 billion years, but the small samples we now have in our hands could not have spent the past 4.5 billion years traveling in space - long ago they would have accreted to another large body or been consumed by the Sun. The cosmic ray exposure ages (29 million years for NWA 5400, up to 70 million years for angrites) indicate how long ago small meteoroids were liberated from the leftover storage bodies parked in the asteroid belt (or somewhere else subject to recent collisions). So it is important to realize that this is a multi-stage process: accretion and at least partial differentiation very early in solar system history, followed by catastrophic collisions stripping off exterior portions of or completely disintegrating the body, trapping of any asteroid-sized surviving remnants in some orbit with transfer potential to Earth, and finally recent chipping off of bits of these storage bodies to yield the meteorites we find. So NWA 5400 was not derived from our modern planet Earth, nor are the angrites most likely derived from the modern planet Mercury. Instead, if there is a connection between NWA 5400 and Earth (or other former bodies accreted in near-Earth orbit) then it is a very ancient one. Likewise, any connection between angrites and Mercury must be a very ancient one. One possibility is that angrites might represent ancient lithosphere stripped off an originally larger planet (leaving the unusually large core and relatively thin modern lithosphere of Mercury). This would also mean that the near-surface materials on Mercury today would represent the former deep lithosphere, and so may not be expected to match exactly with angrites. An alternative is that angrites (and NWA 5400) are not specifically from proto-Mercury (or proto-Earth), but from other now-destroyed bodies that had accreted in their respective vicinities of the solar nebula. The giant collision hypothesis for the origin of the Moon, and the fact that we even give a name (Theia) to a planetary body that no longer exists (but is strongly indicated), highlight the importance of inferred collisions early in solar system history. Perhaps we are lucky enough to have in our hands a few pieces sampled more recently from some fortuitous leftovers. I hope this helps lead future discussions of NWA 5400 in the direction that this meteorite dictates, not those of pairings or supposed pairings, none of which matter when considering the origin of NWA 5400. Best regards, Greg Greg Hupe The Hupe Collection NaturesVault (eBay) gmh...@htn.net www.LunarRock.com IMCA 3163 Click here for my current eBay auctions: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Planetary Pairings...some facts, some guesses
Carl Esparza, Yes, you ask a lot of questions. Your 'questions' are more like statements you are trying make in order to change history, suggest to others you know one thing about the big picture or that you know what I do and where or when. You know nothing about me or my dealings, only what I have stated. If you don't believe me, that is your problem, get over it! Sit back, LISTEN and learn. I have nothing further to say to you. I apologize to the List for my blunt comments here to Carl Esparza. Anybody who knows me, knows me! Anybody who knows Carl Esparza or his past behavior, knows him! Like many other people, I will no longer reply to Carl Esparza as he is a complete waste of time and bandwidth! Best regards, Greg Greg Hupe The Hupe Collection NaturesVault (eBay) gmh...@htn.net www.LunarRock.com IMCA 3163 Click here for my current eBay auctions: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault - Original Message - From: cdtuc...@cox.net To: Martin Altmann altm...@meteorite-martin.de; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; Greg Hupe gmh...@htn.net Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 12:11 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Planetary Pairings...some facts, some guesses Greg, You said; No, not from the same source as the NWA 5363 box of rocks. Okay, I must have missed your revelation last week that you did not buy your NWA 5400 from Mbarek. It would have been nice if we had been told this back in June. If this is your position then it says that the Moroccans must have sold this find to more than just Mbarek. According to the other dealers I have spoken with, this was not the case but you know where your's came from so they must be in error. As you know by now *most* of this material was from Mbarek. And it has also been declared paired to NWA 5400 by an accredited scientist. . About 9 kilos of the 13.5 kilos in question here. So, since you did not buy yours from Mbarek I can now understand why you had doubts about the pairings. Because otherwise the pairing would have been as obvious to you as to the rest of us. So, when you checked the other two rocks you *took* , that turned out to be just brachinites , how did you conclude they were not from the same fall? Because what are the odds of two different brachinites ending up together from your same mysterious dealer and then found to be from different falls? It seems to me these would have to be proven to be from two different falls. So, would it be possible for you to post the reason they were ruled out? I mean besides the O isotopes not matching. The reason I ask is the Almahata Sitta has taught us that the science tells the story. Sometimes it is tricky. If these two brachinites were from the same fall but have different O isotopes that would also be news worthy. Wouldn't it? Since Brachinites seem to be this common then perhaps two of these different brachinites did collide in space and fall together? Just questions here. Nothing more. Thanks. Carl -- Carl or Debbie Esparza Meteoritemax Greg Hupe gmh...@htn.net wrote: Hello Martin, Zelimir and List, Martin wrote: no worries, was a simple typo, digittwiddler. I meant NWA 3136 not NWA 3163. It's alright, Martin. I made the same typo when I first mentioned NWA 4472/4483. Easy to do when we have so many classification numbers under our belts. As for NWA 5400 which I purchased in Morocco as a single stone and took samples from two other rocks that 'appeared' similar, these were all analyzed by the same scientists and lab. The two samples turned out to be 'just' brachinites like I have already pointed out last week in a previous email. And, No, not from the same source as the NWA 5363 box of rocks. Lets all quit worrying about that story, the same scientists are trying to get all of that mess figured out as we speak. They have already analyzed several samples from supposed pairings and have found them not to be paired to NWA 5400 as Peter Marmet has also pointed out. NWA 6292 turns out to be paired, way cool! As I pointed out in an earlier email, ...if pairings are determined, I welcome that, but be patient and let the qualified scientists do their jobs! This whole discussion is like a broken record...just keeps repeating itself! Best regards, Greg Greg Hupe The Hupe Collection NaturesVault (eBay) gmh...@htn.net www.LunarRock.com IMCA 3163 Click here for my current eBay auctions: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault - Original Message - From: Martin Altmann altm...@meteorite-martin.de To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 8:32 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Planetary Pairings...some facts, some guesses Hi Zelimir, no worries, was a simple typo, digittwiddler. I meant NWA 3136 not NWA 3163. NWA 3163/4483/4881 are paired and beautiful. who gave it for classification to different
[meteorite-list] Ad- letters
Hello List members, Patrick and I are offering some letters and signed reprints. Please contact us off list if you have an interest in adding these to your collection. Sincere thanks, Edwin etmeteori...@hotmail.com A letter dated 1983 from Robert Hutchison to Dr. Alan Rubin thanking Rubin for reviewing his book. It is written on British Museum stationary. It comes in an air mail envelope post marked for 28 cents. Letters from Dr. Alan Rubin to O. Richard Norton and reply letter regarding Rubin's review of Norton's book, dated in 1994. Reprint of article on 'Pluto Telescope' signed by Clyde Tombaugh to Dr. Alan Rubin in 1981. Reprint of the abstract on 'The Satellite of Pluto' Signed by author James Christy in 1978. Make an offer for them all. Cheers, E.T. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] NASA Invites Public To Discuss 'What Matters Next' At TedxNASA
Sep. 29, 2010 Katherine Trinidad Headquarters, Washington 202-358-1100 katherine.trini...@nasa.gov Kathy Barnstorff Langley Research Center 757-864-9886 kathy.barnsto...@nasa.gov Harla Sherwood National Institute of Aerospace 757-636-6300 sherw...@nianet.org RELEASE: 10-232 NASA INVITES PUBLIC TO DISCUSS WHAT MATTERS NEXT AT TEDXNASA HAMPTON, Va. -- NASA is inviting the public to join agency leaders and innovators from a variety of fields on Nov. 4 to discuss What Matters Next. Discussions and presentations on the theme will be the centerpiece of the second TEDxNASA, a daylong event modeled on the TED (Technology, Entertainment and Design) conferences that bring together leading thinkers to create a dialogue on important global challenges. NASA's Langley Research Center and the National Institute of Aerospace, both in Hampton, Va., are sponsoring TEDxNASA at the Ferguson Center for the Arts in nearby Newport News. It is free and open to the public and will be streamed on the TEDxNASA website. Registration opens on Oct. 11 and runs through Oct. 24. For more information on the event and how to register, visit: http://tedxnasa.com At TEDxNASA we're able to bring together artists and engineers, rocket scientists and musicians, said Lesa Roe, director of Langley. Together we can create extraordinary conversations about what matters next and ideas to help us meet world challenges. More than 20 top speakers -- focusing on education, innovation, family, technology, literature and art -- will share inspiring and thought-provoking stories at TEDxNASA, as they do at a full TED event. The challenge of those presenting is to give the talk of their lives in 18 minutes or less, based on the theme. NASA's Chief Technologist Bobby Braun and Jim Green, director of the Planetary Science Division in the Science Mission Directorate at NASA Headquarters in Washington are among those slated to speak. Green will present at the same time NASA's EPOXI spacecraft is flying by and snapping close-up images of comet Hartley 2, more than 11 million miles away from Earth. Last year's TEDxNASA event attracted international best-selling author Mitch Albom, Carnegie Hall humorist and guitar virtuoso Mike Rayburn and Virginia Tech robotic pioneer Dennis Hong, among others. Reporters interested in attending the event should contact Kathy Barnstorff at kathy.barnsto...@nasa.gov. TED is a nonprofit organization devoted to ideas worth spreading. Started as a four-day conference in California 25 years ago, TED has grown to support those world-changing ideas with multiple initiatives. Conference presentations are made available for free at TED.com. TED speakers have included Bill Gates, Al Gore, Jane Goodall, Sir Richard Branson, and many others. The x in TEDxNASA indicates it is an independently organized TED event. For more information about NASA and agency programs, visit: http://www.nasa.gov -end- __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Nwa5400 rdux - oops!
To all: In response to Greg C. - yes you can repost it, and I take responsbility for any errors or confusions arising. I would like to correct an error I made writing this late last night after a tiring day rebuilding parts of my mass spectrometer: The Sun is not currently making oxygen; there is a sentence that effectively states it does below - I think I crossed two sentences in my head as I was writing. So, again, the Sun is not the source of the oxygen, or for that matter, any of the 'heavier' elements - yet. Once it depletes enough hydrogen, it will swich to Helium fusion, and begin synthesizing carbon. Conceivably, some of this does occur within the core, but that would not escape yet. The source of the 'heavier' elements is cosmic debris, likely from a nearby supernova explosion that has enriched our star in these elements relative to others that have a similar age and type. [also, a minor typo - the weights of O isotopes are 16,17 and 18, not 16,16,and 18 as noted below- but then, I'm sure you'all figured that one out for yourselves...;) - must stop writing things late at night...] So, the sentence should read: Theoretically, as oxygen is formed in the fusion reactions of stars and expelled when they die, or trapped from molecules drifting in interstellar space, these three isotopes begin to sort out in the solar wind Later, another sentence should read: Since the sun continues to expel oxygen, the system is continually replenished, and is thus arguably at a steady state (or there would be the complication that we don't know the gradient 4.5 billion years ago) And add the following to clarify: The source of this oxygen is largely particles that fall into the Sun's photosphere due to gravitational attraction; molecules such as enstatite are blown apart in the plasma, back into their consituent atoms. In the aubrite discussion: Conventional thinking on their formation is that they formed under reducing conditions, i.e. a lack of oxygen. I was trying to invert this explanation and got it tangled up with solar oxygen, completely wrong. During this period n the formation, the area was very rich in hydrogen and the protosolar disk was forming and 'igniting'. In this area, the amount of oxygen available, relative to heavier elements such as silicon and magnesium, was too low to form much beyond enstatite (this is past, or near the end of, carbonaceous chondrite formation). A better way of looking at this, is that the materials that condensed into larger bodies also had, say, a lot of iron oxides as well as enstatite. As the planetoid formed, the heat allowed transfer of oxygen from metal iron.nickel oxides to the enstatite, forming olivine, whereas the now-reduced metals suck into the core - same as you would make iron today from e.g. hematite, leaving behind an oxygen-enriched silicate slag. I think, trying to make the story seem simple when it is really far more complicated that I put it, I went astray. There, I think I got it right this time, to the best of my current understanding. Sorry about any confusion or inconvenience this caused - next time, I promise to better proofread what I write... I also missed the reference that says CRE has been done on the sample; thanks to Sterling and Richard for explaining the reason for the apparent discrepancy, as I was about to do just this, and therefore they saved me the trouble, so that I can continue to do battle with the MS... DRVann | -Original Message- | From: Greg Catterton [mailto:star_wars_collec...@yahoo.com] | Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 10:44 AM | To: drv...@sas.upenn.edu | Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA5400 redux - a long explanation | | | Awesome info! do you mind if I repost some of this? | | Greg Catterton | www.wanderingstarmeteorites.com | IMCA member 4682 | On Ebay: http://stores.shop.ebay.com/wanderingstarmeteorites | On Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/WanderingStarMeteorites | | | --- On Tue, 9/28/10, drv...@sas.upenn.edu | drv...@sas.upenn.edu wrote: | | From: drv...@sas.upenn.edu drv...@sas.upenn.edu | Subject: [meteorite-list] NWA5400 redux - a long explanation | To: cdtuc...@cox.net | Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com | Date: Tuesday, September 28, 2010, 11:57 PM | Carl: | I am glad that I provoked thought - that is in my mandate | as an educator...;) | | I will try to answer your questions, albeit perhaps not in | order, and | I hope I can explain. | | First, you ask about Mbarak's box of rocks, aren't they | likely paired? | Well, it is very unlikely that two different brachinites fell in the | same spot. Not | impossible, but very unlikely. Therefore, it seems likely | that the rocks are | from the same fall if found in the same area. | | Second, you have several questions about O isotopes. In the case of | NWA5400 pairings, it is important because all agree that it is a | brachinite (more on | this below); what makes it unusual is that is has
[meteorite-list] nwa 5400 pairing to nwa 5363
hi all and i m happy that this issue is becoming a very polit and civilised discussion; well 3 months that i do not want to get caught inside this discussion any more, but well this is becoming repeated to a point that we forget what the debat is about, for nwa 5363; i get a talk on albert jambon mobile , i asked him that many dealers or collectors still think that nwa 5400 is not paired to nwa 5363 and he answered me this. he said that he have submited to the nomcom all the information, and he coudln't have said that they are paired if he haven't done isotope so clearly he indicate that he has done isotope and have submited them to the nomcom dr wisberg or so , its on the phone. and he said he is surprised why the nomcom didn't pubilsh them yet, he said too that he has given all the data that confirm the pairing including the isotope to norbert classen in end june where they talk abaout this and as i asked him to do so. so i ask here do we have any guy from the nomcom here , please end this torture and tell us if you have this data or not,and why you didn't publish them. thanks aziz habibi __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Cosmic Ray exposure
Hello list members, Do any of you know the cosmic ray exposure of the D'Orbigny angrite? It is an extreme area of curiosity to me how a chunk of relatively light and fluffy planetary basalt filled with so many huge vesicles and large vugs filled with these delicate augite crystals can drift through the cold of Space for any length of time and still fall to Earth in such a highly un-metamorphosed, pristine condition. I understand all of the theories on how the delicate and glass lined vesicles were formed but how did they survive the typical impact history of most rocks from Space particularly when D'Orbigny is said to be so very ancient. It's dating puts it's formation way back there in the early days of the formation of our Solar System. And yet another question that begs explanation; is there a remote chance that based on it's unique structure from the outer surface to the deeper areas of the matrix that it might have been it's own planetary body? I know that the late Dr. Gerot Kurat had some 'outside the box' ideas about D'Orbigny but it is such a strange and wildly different meteorite that it is hard not to ponder it's genesis and life through time in our protoplanetary disc. Is anyone out there currently working on D'Orbigny or angrite research projects? I still hold 12.5 kilos of D'Orbigny that I have been hoarding for over 10 years. For researchers who are actively researching angrites at this time, I have some material that I am willing to donate for research projects. I am also always interested in museum trades with D'Orbigny. Contact me off list for details at etmeteori...@hotmail.com Sincerely, Edwin Thompson (E.T.) __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Origins continued Lagrange Points...was NWA 5400 Age Origin Processes
This discussion prompted me to wonder what reservoirs might exist that could preserve any big wack debris which was not re-accreted onto the Earth or Moon. I came up with the natural orbital parking lot known as the Earth Trojans. For those unaware, they orbit in the Lagrangian point's L4 and L5 which are 60degrees ahead and behind Earth's relative orbit around the Sun. (There is a rumor afoot that we are going to send a mission to the Trojans but I don't know which planetary swarm of Trojans that might be, In theory all planets have their own Trojans). Langrngian point Trojan orbits are theoretically very stable and long lived but not immune to being rewacked out of that comfort zone from time to time. Is anyone aware of the of spectral matches with the bracinites or bracinite and a possible parent body? Have any spectral matches been found in the Earth Trojans ? And are there any bracinite candidates in the Lagrange points/ Earth Trojans? Other possible long lived locations might be a a steeply inclined polar orbit around earth although lunar mechanics might not permit that. There has also been much speculation about the existence of a debris swarm at the Lunar Lagrangian points as well. Elton For a discussion of Lagrange points: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagrangian_point __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] AD-Agoult, Henbury, ebay auctions
Aloha, The Big Kahuna has some premium meteorites to offer the collector community, and an ebay auction featuring over 35 items ending this weekend. AGOULT This unbrecciated eucrite is as fresh as any fall. Beautifully textured crust lines two edges of these slices that were professionally cut on a wire saw. http://bigkahuna-meteorites.com/agoult.html HENBURY Beautifully regmaglypted specimens of this Australian IIIAB iron, some with rare desert varnish and one with a natural hole. http://bigkahuna-meteorites.com/henbury.html EBAY The Big Kahuna's regular weekly eBay auctions will end Saturday, October 2, starting at 8:00am Pacific / 11:00am Eastern / 4:00pm London / 6:00pm Helsinki / 11:00pm Singapore. Featured items include Agoult slices, NWA 6075 brecciated lodranite endcut, the freshest Allende slices, NWA 2086 freshest desert CV3, fusion crusted Bencubbin endcut, large Imilac fragment with olivine, fantastically figured Henbury individual, and much, much more. http://shop.ebay.com/fujmon/m.html Gary Fujihara Big Kahuna Meteorites (IMCA#1693) 105 Puhili Place, Hilo, Hawai'i 96720 http://bigkahuna-meteorites.com/ http://shop.ebay.com/fujmon/m.html (808) 640-9161 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Cosmic Ray exposure (of D'orbigny)
Hi Ed and List, The (average) CRE of D'Orbigny is 12.3 ± 0.9 Ma according to this abstract: Eugster O. et al. (2002) Characterization of the noble gases and CRE age of the D'Orbigny angrite (MAPS 37-7, 2002, A044). Cheers, Bernd __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Origins continued Lagrange Points...was NWA 5400 Age Origin Processes
Elton, to date there are no known Earth Trojans. -- Richard Kowalski Full Moon Photography IMCA #1081 --- On Wed, 9/29/10, MEM mstrema...@yahoo.com wrote: From: MEM mstrema...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Origins continued Lagrange Points...was NWA 5400 Age Origin Processes To: Greg Hupe gmh...@htn.net, meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Wednesday, September 29, 2010, 10:28 AM This discussion prompted me to wonder what reservoirs might exist that could preserve any big wack debris which was not re-accreted onto the Earth or Moon. I came up with the natural orbital parking lot known as the Earth Trojans. For those unaware, they orbit in the Lagrangian point's L4 and L5 which are 60degrees ahead and behind Earth's relative orbit around the Sun. (There is a rumor afoot that we are going to send a mission to the Trojans but I don't know which planetary swarm of Trojans that might be, In theory all planets have their own Trojans). Langrngian point Trojan orbits are theoretically very stable and long lived but not immune to being rewacked out of that comfort zone from time to time. Is anyone aware of the of spectral matches with the bracinites or bracinite and a possible parent body? Have any spectral matches been found in the Earth Trojans ? And are there any bracinite candidates in the Lagrange points/ Earth Trojans? Other possible long lived locations might be a a steeply inclined polar orbit around earth although lunar mechanics might not permit that. There has also been much speculation about the existence of a debris swarm at the Lunar Lagrangian points as well. Elton For a discussion of Lagrange points: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagrangian_point __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Analysis of Hayabusa Samples Will Wait Until 2011
http://www.spaceflightnow.com/news/n1009/29hayabusa/ Analysis of Hayabusa samples will wait until 2011 BY STEPHEN CLARK SPACEFLIGHT NOW September 29, 2010 PRAGUE -- Scientists won't know whether Japan's Hayabusa probe actually returned asteroid dust until at least February or March, when researchers finish extracting microscopic particles from the craft's return capsule and complete an exhaustive analysis to verify their origin. In a presentation at the 61st International Astronautical Congress here, Hayabusa's project manager said he is optimistic the hard-luck $200 million mission returned at least some traces of asteroid material from the surface of Itokawa, the potato-shaped rubble pile object the probe visited in late 2005. The trick is distinguishing the precious samples from contamination from Earth. Many of the particles are probably Earth particles, Kawaguchi said Wednesday. However, some of the particles were probably captured at the asteroid. Inside an ultra-clean room at the Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency's curation facility at Sagamihara, workers garbed in special bunny suits have been slowly extracting particles from one of two chambers inside the sample return canister. The capsule fell back to Earth in June, touching down within 500 meters of its planned landing site at the Woomera protected area in Australia. Kawaguchi said his science team found tens of particles in Chamber A of the canister. The tiny particles are being removed one-by-one in an extraction process that is stretching longer than anticipated. Analysis of the samples will not begin until at least December, according to Kawaguchi. We will transmit any scientific update when it's available, Kawaguchi said. Scientists still have not opened Chamber B, which likely holds more dust and asteroid residue than the container officials are already examining. Chamber B should have been exposed to more asteroid material because of its location on the sample collection system. It lies on the side of the spacecraft that touched Itokawa with the most force during its time at the asteroid, Kawaguchi said. Officials hope the force kicked up rocks and dust and funneled the samples into the collection device. The opening of Chamber B is scheduled for October, Kawaguchi told Spaceflight Now. Hayabusa was designed to gather several hundred milligrams of material if the sampling procedure went as planned, but the craft's projectile gun did not activate when it approached the asteroid. Kawaguchi, who guarded his optimism before Hayabusa landed, now openly says he believes scientists will ultimately prove the mission returned pieces of an asteroid. Even a micron-sized particle can be sliced into bits and pieces and analyzed, Kawaguchi said. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Origins continued Lagrange Points...was NWA 5400 Age Origin Processes
My Bad! I misread the factsheet regarding 3753 Cruithne which isn't a Trojan by definition...sigh. So the Trojans we are looking at visiting are those of Jupiter. BUT if we were looking for left over shards--very very small ones... I assume this is amongst other places is a candidate for where we might find some. Thanks Richard it is a real asset to have so many world class experts on the list to keep me straight. Elton - Original Message From: Richard Kowalski damoc...@yahoo.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wed, September 29, 2010 2:37:12 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Origins continued Lagrange Points...was NWA 5400 Age Origin Processes Elton, to date there are no known Earth Trojans. -- Richard Kowalski Full Moon Photography IMCA #1081 --- On Wed, 9/29/10, MEM mstrema...@yahoo.com wrote: From: MEM mstrema...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Origins continued Lagrange Points...was NWA 5400 Age Origin Processes To: Greg Hupe gmh...@htn.net, meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Wednesday, September 29, 2010, 10:28 AM This discussion prompted me to wonder what reservoirs might exist that could preserve any big wack debris which was not re-accreted onto the Earth or Moon. I came up with the natural orbital parking lot known as the Earth Trojans. For those unaware, they orbit in the Lagrangian point's L4 and L5 which are 60degrees ahead and behind Earth's relative orbit around the Sun. (There is a rumor afoot that we are going to send a mission to the Trojans but I don't know which planetary swarm of Trojans that might be, In theory all planets have their own Trojans). Langrngian point Trojan orbits are theoretically very stable and long lived but not immune to being rewacked out of that comfort zone from time to time. Is anyone aware of the of spectral matches with the bracinites or bracinite and a possible parent body? Have any spectral matches been found in the Earth Trojans ? And are there any bracinite candidates in the Lagrange points/ Earth Trojans? Other possible long lived locations might be a a steeply inclined polar orbit around earth although lunar mechanics might not permit that. There has also been much speculation about the existence of a debris swarm at the Lunar Lagrangian points as well. Elton For a discussion of Lagrange points: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagrangian_point __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Atmosphere Checked, One Mars Year Before a Landing
http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.cfm?release=2010-316 Atmosphere Checked, One Mars Year Before a Landing Jet Propulsion Laboratory September 29, 2010 PASADENA, Calif. -- What will the Martian atmosphere be like when the next Mars rover descends through it for landing in August of 2012? An instrument studying the Martian atmosphere from orbit has begun a four-week campaign to characterize daily atmosphere changes, one Mars year before the arrival of the Mars Science Laboratory rover, Curiosity. A Mars year equals 687 Earth days. The planet's thin atmosphere of carbon dioxide is highly repeatable from year to year at the same time of day and seasonal date during northern spring and summer on Mars. The Mars Climate Sounder instrument on NASA's Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter maps the distribution of temperature, dust, and water ice in the atmosphere. Temperature variations with height indicate how fast air density changes and thus the rates at which the incoming spacecraft slows down and heats up during its descent. It is currently one Mars year before the Mars Science Laboratory arrival season, said atmospheric scientist David Kass of NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif. This campaign will provide a set of observations to support the Mars Science Laboratory engineering team and Mars atmospheric modelers. The information will constrain the expected climate at their landing season. It will also help define the range of possible weather conditions on landing day. During the four years the Mars Climate Sounder has been studying the Martian atmosphere, its observations have seen conditions only at about three in the afternoon and three in the morning. For the new campaign, the instrument team is inaugurating a new observation mode, looking to both sides as well as forward. This provides views of the atmosphere earlier and later in the day by more than an hour, covering the range of possible times of day that the rover will pass through the atmosphere before landing. JPL, a division of the California Institute of Technology, provided the Mars Climate Sounder instrument and manages the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter and Mars Science Laboratory projects for NASA's Science Mission Directorate, Washington. For more about NASA's Mars exploration program, see http://marsprogram.jpl.nasa.gov . Guy Webster 818-354-6278 Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif. guy.webs...@jpl.nasa.gov 2010-316 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] nwa 5400 pairing to nwa 5363
Dear Aziz All, You wrote: he said too that he has given all the data that confirm the pairing including the isotope to norbert classen in end june where they talk abaout this and as i asked him to do so. Maybe there's a slight misunderstanding here. I actually emailed with Dr. Jambon in June, and we also intended to meet at the Ste. Marie Show at the end of June where Dr. Jambon wanted to show me all the data (including the O-isotope data). However, unfortunatelly we missed each other at the show, and so the meeting didn't take place. Don't get me wrong, I have no reason to doubt Dr. Jambon's word on this - I just wanted to get the facts straight. Maybe you misunderstood Dr. Jambon? But up to this day I haven't seen the O-isotope data for NWA 5363. All I have seen is a writeup on NWA 5363 which didn't include the O-isotope data. Again, that doesn't mean much, and I'm also looking forward to the official publication of NWA 5363. This will hopefully answer all the questions. We all need to remember that meteorite classification (including the voting process on new meteorites at the NomCom of the Meteoritical Society) takes time. So we as collectors should, IMHO, be patient, and wait with conclusions until the scientific work has been done and published. All the best, Norbert -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- hi all and i m happy that this issue is becoming a very polit and civilised discussion; well 3 months that i do not want to get caught inside this discussion any more, but well this is becoming repeated to a point that we forget what the debat is about, for nwa 5363; i get a talk on albert jambon mobile , i asked him that many dealers or collectors still think that nwa 5400 is not paired to nwa 5363 and he answered me this. he said that he have submited to the nomcom all the information, and he coudln't have said that they are paired if he haven't done isotope so clearly he indicate that he has done isotope and have submited them to the nomcom dr wisberg or so , its on the phone. and he said he is surprised why the nomcom didn't pubilsh them yet, he said too that he has given all the data that confirm the pairing including the isotope to norbert classen in end june where they talk abaout this and as i asked him to do so. so i ask here do we have any guy from the nomcom here , please end this torture and tell us if you have this data or not,and why you didn't publish them. thanks aziz habibi __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Habital Planet Discovery Announcement
Hello List, Maybe...just maybe... http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100929/sc_afp/usastronomyplanet_20100929210707 Best to all, Count Deiro IMCA 3536 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Habital Planet Discovery Announcement
Where do I get tickets... Greg S. Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 16:37:43 -0700 From: countde...@earthlink.net To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] Habital Planet Discovery Announcement Hello List, Maybe...just maybe... http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100929/sc_afp/usastronomyplanet_20100929210707 Best to all, Count Deiro IMCA 3536 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Re : nwa 5400 pairing to nwa 5363
thanks norbert for your habitual honnesty and help you have been a good help for me for years now , and we if are going to miss you at the imca we hope we will not miss in the meteorite community. i have no doubt on what you said , i transfer this email and cc to albert jambon. thanks aziz Norbert Classen riffr...@timewarp.de wrote: Dear Aziz All, You wrote: he said too that he has given all the data that confirm the pairing including the isotope to norbert classen in end june where they talk abaout this and as i asked him to do so. Maybe there's a slight misunderstanding here. I actually emailed with Dr. Jambon in June, and we also intended to meet at the Ste. Marie Show at the end of June where Dr. Jambon wanted to show me all the data (including the O-isotope data). However, unfortunatelly we missed each other at the show, and so the meeting didn't take place. Don't get me wrong, I have no reason to doubt Dr. Jambon's word on this - I just wanted to get the facts straight. Maybe you misunderstood Dr. Jambon? But up to this day I haven't seen the O-isotope data for NWA 5363. All I have seen is a writeup on NWA 5363 which didn't include the O-isotope data. Again, that doesn't mean much, and I'm also looking forward to the official publication of NWA 5363. This will hopefully answer all the questions. We all need to remember that meteorite classification (including the voting process on new meteorites at the NomCom of the Meteoritical Society) takes time. So we as collectors should, IMHO, be patient, and wait with conclusions until the scientific work has been done and published. All the best, Norbert -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- hi all and i m happy that this issue is becoming a very polit and civilised discussion; well 3 months that i do not want to get caught inside this discussion any more, but well this is becoming repeated to a point that we forget what the debat is about, for nwa 5363; i get a talk on albert jambon mobile , i asked him that many dealers or collectors still think that nwa 5400 is not paired to nwa 5363 and he answered me this. he said that he have submited to the nomcom all the information, and he coudln't have said that they are paired if he haven't done isotope so clearly he indicate that he has done isotope and have submited them to the nomcom dr wisberg or so , its on the phone. and he said he is surprised why the nomcom didn't pubilsh them yet, he said too that he has given all the data that confirm the pairing including the isotope to norbert classen in end june where they talk abaout this and as i asked him to do so. so i ask here do we have any guy from the nomcom here , please end this torture and tell us if you have this data or not,and why you didn't publish them. thanks aziz habibi __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] (OT) Habital Planet Discovery Announcement
Good evening All, Sorry for being really dense about stuff like this but I don't quite understand how a planet with a mass three to four times and a diameter 1.2 to 1.4 times Earth will only have it's gravity only slightly higher? How much is slightly? Thanks for the link, Count. Carl2 Countdeiro wrote: Hello List,Maybe...just maybe...http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100929/sc_afp/usastronomyplanet_20100929210707Best to all, __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] MHC Magazine Articles Photos Invitation
Hi List, Get published in MHC magazine. http://www.mhcmagazine.com/blog/get-published-in-mhc/ User generated content ROCKS! Please read the article/link above. I'm looking for awesome full color photos related to meteorites, and well written detailed meteorite/astronomy articles 500 to 2500 words in length. More specifically I'd like to include more user generated content, and personal stories regarding your hunting and collecting adventures, studies, and interests. Make it FUN! The more adventurous and informational, and scientific the better. Those interested in having your article or photo published in Meteorite Hunting Collecting Magazine please submit your content through the content submission form on the site. http://www.mhcmagazine.com/authors/submit-content/ * You are welcome to submit any meteorite related photo(s), article(s), or video(s). (not all contributions will be published do to space and time constraints) * Featured Meteorite Gallery - Exquisite museum quality specimens (See page 20-21 in July's premiere issue) http://www.mhcmagazine.com/current-issue/july-2010/ * Guest Author Articles - Will be published in the print edition, digital edition, and our blog. * Meteorite Hunting/Find Photos - e.g. Insitu and/or finder proudly displaying their meteorite find(s). (This is a new section. If it turns out to be popular, we will include it regularly) I will make every effort to include contributions in future issues of MHC. Please take a look at the magazine, if you have any questions or comments, or an idea or critique please feel free to contact me. Thanks for the interest in and support of the magazine. Regards, Eric Wichman Meteorite Hunting Collecting Magazine http://www.mhcmagazine.com __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] (OT) Habital Planet Discovery Announcement
Surface gravity compared with Earth can be approximated as m/r^2, where m is in Earth masses and r is in Earth radii. If this new planet is only three Earth masses and is 1.4 Earth radii, its surface gravity will be 1.5g. If the planet is four Earth masses and 1.2 Earth radii, its surface gravity will be 2.8g. 2g would seem to be a reasonable mid-range value if we take intermediate values for size and mass. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: Carl 's carloselgua...@hotmail.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 6:46 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] (OT) Habital Planet Discovery Announcement Good evening All, Sorry for being really dense about stuff like this but I don't quite understand how a planet with a mass three to four times and a diameter 1.2 to 1.4 times Earth will only have it's gravity only slightly higher? How much is slightly? Thanks for the link, Count. Carl2 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Habital Planet Discovery Announcement
... The composition of the Super Earth may be different, too. The star appears to be only around 47 to 56 percent as enriched as Sol in elements heavier than hydrogen (metals)... Its kinematic characterisitcs, magnetic activity, and sub-Solar metallicity indicate that Gliese 581 is at least two billion years old. Gliese 851 is a variable star with the designation HO Librae. I don't like that variable part, do you? Less heavy elements means a half the iron, half the oxygen, silicon, carbon, you name it... And conversely, lots of volatiles, maybe more ocean than I calculated, possibly a thicker atmosphere. Gliese 581 has its Wikipedia entry, of course, and Planet G is already there: its mass is ?3.1 Earth masses; it orbits at 0.14601 ± 0.00014 AU; its year is 36.562 ± 0.052 days. The orbit has approximately 0.0 eccentricity. Well, maybe. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gliese_581 It's just like show business: yesterday, you were a nobody and today, you're a Star! Gliese 581 is about 1/3rd of the mass of the Sun, which means that it is only 0.037 the luminosity of the Sun, a mere 3.7%. Gliese 581 is a neighbor, only 20.4 light years away, one of the 100 closest stars. The newly discovered planet is 0.146 AU from the star, about 13,578,000 miles, and takes only 36.562 days, or 877.5 hours, to orbit its star. If it seems to you that it must be rather dim on Gliese 581g, with a star only 3.7% of the brightness of the Sun... think again! At 0.146 AU, a star is 46.9 times brighter than it is at 1.0 AU, so it's fortunate that the star is only 3.7% of the brightness of our Sun, because sunlight on Gliese 581g is a mere 173% BRIGHTER than sunlight on Earth. Accounting for all the factors, the solar energy at the planet should be about 75% greater than the Earth's also. And lastly, they are likely wrong about the planet being tidally locked to face the star. As a close planet rotates and slows by tidal forces acting on it, there is a trap at the 3:2 resonance, which is so strong that it stops the slowdown. The planet likely has a day 54.843 days long. But it will even out those temperature extremes. I predict strong storm systems transferring heat and moisture from the summer hemisphere to the winter hemisphere. See, we already know something about space travel to Gliese 581g! Take sunglasses, some really good rain gear, many, many watercraft, and leave the surfboard at home. And if we've learned to talk to dolphins and whales by the time we go, we might consider asking them to join the crew... Depends on what the probes find. If there's intelligent life, it may be expecting us someday. In October 2008, members of the networking website Bebo beamed A Message From Earth, a high-power transmission at Gliese 581, using the RT-70 radio telescope belonging to the National Space Agency of Ukraine. This transmission is due to arrive in the Gliese 581 system's vicinity by the year 2029; the earliest possible arrival for a response, should there be one, would be in 2049. Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: countde...@earthlink.net To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 6:37 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Habital Planet Discovery Announcement Hello List, Maybe...just maybe... http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100929/sc_afp/usastronomyplanet_20100929210707 Best to all, Count Deiro IMCA 3536 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Other Earths -- WAS: Re: Habitable Planet, etc.
Hi, Carl, and Other Inquiring Minds, How much is slightly? Well, I just answered that one, Carl, but the principle involved is this: a bigger planet means that when you're on the surface of it, you're much further away from the center of its mass, hence gravity does not go up directly as the diameter increases. Imagine that we could build a spherical shell that com- pletely enclosed the Earth, but was erected 4000 miles above the Earth's surface. Massive as it would be, it would be a minimal increase of the Earth's mass. If you walked around on the outside of that shell, you would be 8000 miles from the Earth's center instead of the 4000 miles from the center we are down here. The gravity would be only 25% of normal gravity on the outside of that (imaginary) shell. Imagine a planetary system where an Earth-like world condenses from a heavy-metal-and-element-poor nebula, like one that forms a calcium-rich or light-metal-rich star. (They exist, BTW.) Without an iron core of any great size, they would be made of rock only, rich in silicon, calcium, magnesium, aluminum... A lithophile planet, not a siderophile planet, is perfectly possible. Basalt would be a rare deep-mantle stone and iron a precious gem-metal, both almost never seen. It would be a low-density world. It would not compress as easily as iron-rich worlds. It would be much bigger for its mass than a world like Earth, hence it would have a much greater diameter but a LOWER surface gravity. Imagine a two-Earth-mass world with a density of 3.26, like a heavy rock; that's only 60% of the density of our Earth. It would have 3.33 times the volume of Earth, 2.19 times the surface area of Earth, and 1.49 times the diameter of the Earth (11,840 miles in diameter). Its surface gravity would only be 88% of the Earth's, despite having twice the mass! It would have a deep siliac crust and very high mountains, higher rates of erosion, no plate tectonics, no volcanoes. The only vertical movements in the crust would be isotasy; continents would be buoyant plutons of less dense rock. There would be twice the water of the Earth spread out over 2.2 times the area --- the oceans should be similar to Earth's. With twice the atmosphere of Earth and lower gravity, the air would have a much greater scale height, meaning air pressure would not fall off as rapidly with altitude as the Earth's. The air would be denser and breathable (if it contain oxygen) at much greater altitudes -- you could breath on top of a 52,000-foot-high mountain and fly a piston-engine aircraft to 135,000 feet or more. Sounds like an interesting place, doesn't it? (I've always thought so.) There are millions of possible world-recipes and likely billions of possible semi-Earth combinations that could be made from them. It's NOT going to be the same old solar system repeated over and over again. What if Gliese 581g was made of low-density rock like my sample world (above)? It would be 3 times the mass, 5 times the volume, 1.70 times the diameter, 2.92 times the surface area, and have a surface gravity of just 1.04 gees, ocean depths the same as ours. But Gliese 581 doesn't seem to be the right kind of star for that blend of materials. Some K2 light-metal-rich dwarf somewhere... Planet-building is fun. Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: Carl 's carloselgua...@hotmail.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 7:46 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] (OT) Habital Planet Discovery Announcement Good evening All, Sorry for being really dense about stuff like this but I don't quite understand how a planet with a mass three to four times and a diameter 1.2 to 1.4 times Earth will only have it's gravity only slightly higher? How much is slightly? Thanks for the link, Count. Carl2 Countdeiro wrote: Hello List,Maybe...just maybe...http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100929/sc_afp/usastronomyplanet_20100929210707Best to all, __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Habital Planet Discovery Announcement
for information on the star itself, Gliese 581: http://www.solstation.com/stars/gl581.htm Gliese 581 is a cool and dim, main sequence red dwarf (M2.5 V). The star has almost a third (31 +/- 2 percent) of Sol's mass, possibly 29 percent of its diameter, and a bit more than one percent (around 0.013) of its visual luminosity... The composition of the Super Earth may be different, too. The star appears to be only around 47 to 56 percent as enriched as Sol in elements heavier than hydrogen (metals)... Its kinematic characterisitcs, magnetic activity, and sub-Solar metallicity indicate that Gliese 581 is at least two billion years old. Gliese 851 is a variable star with the designation HO Librae. I don't like that variable part, do you? Less heavy elements means a half the iron, half the oxygen, silicon, carbon, you name it... And conversely, lots of volatiles, maybe more ocean than I calculated, possibly a thicker atmosphere. Gliese 581 has its Wikipedia entry, of course, and Planet G is already there: its mass is ?3.1 Earth masses; it orbits at 0.14601 ± 0.00014 AU; its year is 36.562 ± 0.052 days. The orbit has approximately 0.0 eccentricity. Well, maybe. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gliese_581 It's just like show business: yesterday, you were a nobody and today, you're a Star! Gliese 581 is about 1/3rd of the mass of the Sun, which means that it is only 0.037 the luminosity of the Sun, a mere 3.7%. Gliese 581 is a neighbor, only 20.4 light years away, one of the 100 closest stars. The newly discovered planet is 0.146 AU from the star, about 13,578,000 miles, and takes only 36.562 days, or 877.5 hours, to orbit its star. If it seems to you that it must be rather dim on Gliese 581g, with a star only 3.7% of the brightness of the Sun... think again! At 0.146 AU, a star is 46.9 times brighter than it is at 1.0 AU, so it's fortunate that the star is only 3.7% of the brightness of our Sun, because sunlight on Gliese 581g is a mere 173% BRIGHTER than sunlight on Earth. Accounting for all the factors, the solar energy at the planet should be about 75% greater than the Earth's also. And lastly, they are likely wrong about the planet being tidally locked to face the star. As a close planet rotates and slows by tidal forces acting on it, there is a trap at the 3:2 resonance, which is so strong that it stops the slowdown. The planet likely has a day 54.843 days long. But it will even out those temperature extremes. I predict strong storm systems transferring heat and moisture from the summer hemisphere to the winter hemisphere. See, we already know something about space travel to Gliese 581g! Take sunglasses, some really good rain gear, many, many watercraft, and leave the surfboard at home. And if we've learned to talk to dolphins and whales by the time we go, we might consider asking them to join the crew... Depends on what the probes find. If there's intelligent life, it may be expecting us someday. In October 2008, members of the networking website Bebo beamed A Message From Earth, a high-power transmission at Gliese 581, using the RT-70 radio telescope belonging to the National Space Agency of Ukraine. This transmission is due to arrive in the Gliese 581 system's vicinity by the year 2029; the earliest possible arrival for a response, should there be one, would be in 2049. Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: countde...@earthlink.net To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 6:37 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Habital Planet Discovery Announcement Hello List, Maybe...just maybe... http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100929/sc_afp/usastronomyplanet_20100929210707 Best to all, Count Deiro IMCA 3536 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
