[meteorite-list] NYT story
Hello Agee and Listers, Agee thank you for sharing your side of your story. I have to say I have read the NYT again and WOW. But again the title says it all.Black-Market Trinkets From Space. The bias started off right in the title and the writer did a good job with getting readership, but in a bad way. I am not much of a person to keep up with NYT but I have to say he sure did know how to write a title. At first I didn't notice it but then the word Trinkets popped. I am confused how the writer is demoting meteorite to mere trinkets that you get at a carnival or some quarter machine. Do people sell Trinkets on the BLACK MARKET No they sell big guns, and other expensive multi billion dollar items. It just shows that the NYT thinks this topic is a joke and all they need and want ratings. Black Market in any title will make people stop and take a look at the article. But I do have to say out of this negative reporting it has promoted an awareness about meteorites and how important they are for science and history. As days pass and I learn more about new discoveries or old ones from historic books, I learn more about who we are as humans and how important these rocks are to us. I am fascinated by the rich stories and the new discoveries that can piece together it started. However, this isn't the first time this has happened where people ride off each other for profit. Its been done from the first meteorite fall and will continue to do so because of the value that is put forth on meteorites and how they play a key role in understanding the universe. I just hope that science and collectors keep working together and making history happen as apposed to some other countries that have law on meteorite. Shawn Alan IMCA 1633 eBaystore http://shop.ebay.com/photophlow/m.html [meteorite-list] NYT storyCarl Agee agee at unm.edu Tue Apr 5 11:28:10 EDT 2011 Previous message: [meteorite-list] Doug Next message: [meteorite-list] NYT story Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] Since I am quoted in this article, here’s my reaction to it. The reporter seems very confused, in that he lumps together a story about the Gebel Kamil crater in Egypt and the legal meteorite trade (NWA) based primarily in Morocco. During the interview with him I spent a fair amount of time trying to explain to him how beneficial the NWA’s have been for planetary science research. For example, I mentioned how the number of rare Angrite meteorites has more than doubled due to African finds – a huge enhancement to our understanding of the early solar system, and of course I mentioned all the lunars and martians, and other rare classes. I told him that I was not terribly well informed about the Gebel Kamil crater situation, but in my opinion the highest priority would be to protect the impact structure from degradation as these are quite rare on Earth. I also told him, that the Gebel Kamil meteorites on the other hand, are probably not hard to come by, and I’m sure if I wanted to study one for research, I could get a sample at a reasonable price or even get one as a donation from a collector, which museums benefit from frequently. I did get the feeling that he was hoping to hear something negative from me. As such he ended the interview rather quickly, but said something like “oh, the NWA meteorites sounds like an interesting story, I need to come back to that at a later time”. So of course I was disappointed to see what mess the final NYT version was. -- Carl B. Agee Director and Curator, Institute of Meteoritics Professor, Earth and Planetary Sciences MSC03 2050 University of New Mexico Albuquerque NM 87131-1126 Tel: (505) 750-7172 Fax: (505) 277-3577 Email: agee at unm.edu http://epswww.unm.edu/iom/pers/agee.html Previous message: [meteorite-list] Doug Next message: [meteorite-list] NYT story Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] More information about the Meteorite-list mailing list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Meteorite Presentation in Berkeley, CA - April 16
Hello All, For those of you in the San Francisco bay area, Peter and I will be giving a talk on meteorites on Saturday, April 16. It will be part of UC Berkeley's Cal Day (free and open to the public). From 9am to 4pm each department puts up numerous displays and demos of ongoing research and discoveries. It's generally geared towards attracting new students and showing recently admitted students the opportunities they'll have at Cal. Last year I wandered off for a bit, walked into a physics lab, and got to see some superconductors in action! There will be plenty of educational programs and tours all day in every department -- for a complete list and schedule, please see here: http://calday.berkeley.edu/ We're planning on setting up at around 9am in McCone Hall, and we'll be giving a basic presentation on meteorites from 2-3pm in room 141 of McCone, wrapping up by 4pm. We'll have some space rocks on hand, including some new and exciting ones that you may not have seen or heard about yet! If you know you'll be able to make it, please let me know! Thanks, Regards, Jason Jason Utas University of California, Berkeley 2012 College of Letters and Science Geology, Psychology __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - April 6, 2011
http://www.rocksfromspace.org/April_6_2011.html __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NYT story
Hello Shawn, I think one aspect in your thoughts isn't fully correct. Understandable, because you're occupied with historical meteorites. Historical meteorites are by far the most expensive meteorites you can have. Why are they so expensive? Because of the poor availability. Why is so few available - rright, because the very most of their tkws is locked away in institutional collections. Hence they are not the problem, the researchers and scientists do already have them. Shawn, this material stems from the times, where there existed not more than 2000-3000 meteorites on the whole World. Times have changed. We have now a couple of tens of thousands meteorites more, within only 3 decades. The Antarctic ones and the desert finds. Meteorite science, the advance in knowledge, the new results - that all is done by means of these new finds. It's all about them. And they don't cost a thing anymore. That black market, profit thing - it is a true sham debate, a discussion nobody in expert circles is having, but which is carried in only from laymen from outside. You have to see the dimensions. Let me help you. Let's take the Bulletin Database. I give you now a summary by types of all that what was found - in 35 years - by ANSMET, NIPR, PRIC, KOREAMET, EUROMET together. And the same only for that what - in 11 years - was coming from NWA. Only NWA, the couple of thousands of entries for the other Sahara finds (the DaGs, HaHs, SAHs, Acfers, Tanezroufts) I leave out, as well as the complete Oman (Dhofar, JaH, Shisr...). Only NWA: Antarctica NWA Acap/Lod2.73 kg 25.18 kg Angrites0.02 kg 7.24 kg Brachinites 0.25 kg 8.16 kg Aubrites5.37 kg 11.14 kg (still biased by some El Haggouina pairings) Carbonaceous CB 0.13 kg 0.90 kg CH 0.21 kg 0.42 kg CI 0.80 kg- CK 4.50 kg 32.86 kg CM 18.94 kg 5.98 kg CO 36.10 kg 20.29 kg CR 3.61 kg 10.85 kg CV 15.64 kg 81.30 kg Diogenites - 83.12 kg Eucrites 47.97 kg116.56 kg Howardites 11.88 kg 32.63 kg K-Chondrites0.02 kg - Lunar 5.43 kg 22.28 kg Martian27.80 kg 8.15 kg Mesosiderites 34.06 kg259.50 kg Pallasites202.47 kg 6.25 kg R-Chondrites1.38 kg 30.57 kg Ureilites 16.31 kg 49.40 kg Winonaites 0.08 kg 1.38 kg For the irons, I'm too lazy, there we have more from Antarctica than from NWA, And the ordinary chondrites.. well they are not so interesting and there are from Antarctica only 500 numbers with a larger tkw than 2.5kg. Hence a few single tons from whole Antarctica And anyway, to bring 1000 gallons of gasoline to the Pole costs as much to get a ton of ordinary chondrites from NWA delivered to the doorstep of the institute. So you see, of what small quantities we're talking at all. Seen the weights and the volume of money. Look the overall expenses for one single Antarctic meteorite season would easily have bought all that above listed desert completely. And if one would be so kind to spend another years expenses, with that money one could install in each and every Sahara country an university meteorite department equipped with a microprobe and pay there two meteoricists for the next 50 years. Money, profit motifs, that is a bugaboo of not so knowledgable people. Compared to quite any other university research or museums collecting activities, we're speaking with meteorites about peanuts. Neither any black market does exists, simply due to the lack of mass. Those articles always suggest, that the private collectors would buy up all new finds before the scientists could do that. Please Shawn - after Calcalong was forgotten, which two meteorites angered the scientists most? The two DaG-Moons. Now see Shawn - still today - after so long times and these two rocks were everything else than of the size of a mountain, you can still buy them without problems, and at a rate 200, 300 times lower than 15 years ago. Look, Shawn, what was the most devastating article before that one now? It was, when Dr.Smith, the highest meteorite boss of the Commonwealth cried in BBC, that science wouldn't be able to compete with private collecting. Nja well, I would cry too if I would have bought the Ivuna main mass, because it was simply the most expensive meteorite specimen of the World of these years around. But I'd rather would have said: Girl, what are you crying, you could have bought so much fine desert instead. Back to that NYT article - what is the name of that journalist. Mr.Broad simply only would have had to go to the
[meteorite-list] Mud volcanoes of Mars revealed
Mud volcanoes of Mars revealed, by Dan Vergano USA Today, March 29, 2011, http://content.usatoday.com/communities/sciencefair/post/2011/03/mud-volcanoes-of-mars-revealed/1 ScienceShot: Martian Mud Volcanoes by Sid Perkins, Science Now, April 4, 2011, http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2011/04/scienceshot-martian-mud-volcanoes.html?ref=hp The paper is: Pondrelli, M., A.P. Rossi, G.G. Ori, S. van Gasselt, D. Praeg, and S. Ceramicola, 2011, Mud volcanoes in the geologic record of Mars: The case of Firsoff crater. Earth and Planetary Science Letters. vol. 304, np. 3-4, pp. 511-519. http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.epsl.2011.02.027 While on Earth, Mud eruption in Ninh Thuan is defined as volcano mud. Vietnam.net, http://english.vietnamnet.vn/en/science-technology/6200/mud-eruption-in-ninh-thuan-is-defined-as-volcano-mud.html Activity of mud volcanoes in Azerbaijan increased sharply Azerbaijan Business Center Mar 14, 2011, http://abc.az/eng/news_14_03_2011_52345.html Sidoarjo mud volcano is world's largest; no sign of stopping soon, TBD, March 22, 2011 http://www.tbd.com/blogs/weather/2011/03/sidoarjo-mud-volcano-is-world-s-largest-no-sign-of-stopping-soon-9695.html Yours, Paul H. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Any Colorado falls in the last 3 years?
Hi all, I was contacted by a person that saw me playing around with my new F75 detector in my front yard. She stops and says, Is that a metal detector? and I said yes and to please not step on those meteorites. I had several throw downs laying on the ground I was testing with. As soon as I mentioned meteorite, she told me that they were in Durango, CO and a rock fell and hit their trailer and rolled down on their awning. They climbed up to see what it was and it was a small stone which had left a mark. She claimed they grabbed it and put it in a baggy. So I asked her if she still had it and she said yes and she screamed off to go get it. Well, about 15 minutes later, she came back and said it was not in the trailerit may be at their place in Colorado. I told her it might be worth going and getting it. Anyways, anyone know of any falls or witnessed fireballs that could have dropped something in the Durango areasay in the last three years? Thanks for any info. Jim Wooddell __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] (AD) meteorites forsale 25% off
Hello again list.Where are the new falls? It has been along time since any new falls here in the usa.Mifflin will be 1 year old next week.Hey 25% off on all my listed meteorites plus free shipping.No more on these.Off list as usual.Thanks and have a great day. Steve R.Arnold, Chicago! __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NYT story
Why not have one of our esteemed members write a rebuttal and try for publication in one of New York's other main newspapers. After all, it's all about competition for readership for them. And a paper like the Wall Street Journal or New York Daily News, might wish to show how absurd the NYT article actually was. Dave --- On Wed, 4/6/11, Martin Altmann altm...@meteorite-martin.de wrote: From: Martin Altmann altm...@meteorite-martin.de Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NYT story To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Wednesday, April 6, 2011, 7:37 AM Hello Shawn, I think one aspect in your thoughts isn't fully correct. Understandable, because you're occupied with historical meteorites. Historical meteorites are by far the most expensive meteorites you can have. Why are they so expensive? Because of the poor availability. Why is so few available - rright, because the very most of their tkws is locked away in institutional collections. Hence they are not the problem, the researchers and scientists do already have them. Shawn, this material stems from the times, where there existed not more than 2000-3000 meteorites on the whole World. Times have changed. We have now a couple of tens of thousands meteorites more, within only 3 decades. The Antarctic ones and the desert finds. Meteorite science, the advance in knowledge, the new results - that all is done by means of these new finds. It's all about them. And they don't cost a thing anymore. That black market, profit thing - it is a true sham debate, a discussion nobody in expert circles is having, but which is carried in only from laymen from outside. You have to see the dimensions. Let me help you. Let's take the Bulletin Database. I give you now a summary by types of all that what was found - in 35 years - by ANSMET, NIPR, PRIC, KOREAMET, EUROMET together. And the same only for that what - in 11 years - was coming from NWA. Only NWA, the couple of thousands of entries for the other Sahara finds (the DaGs, HaHs, SAHs, Acfers, Tanezroufts) I leave out, as well as the complete Oman (Dhofar, JaH, Shisr...). Only NWA: Antarctica NWA Acap/Lod 2.73 kg 25.18 kg Angrites 0.02 kg 7.24 kg Brachinites 0.25 kg 8.16 kg Aubrites 5.37 kg 11.14 kg (still biased by some El Haggouina pairings) Carbonaceous CB 0.13 kg 0.90 kg CH 0.21 kg 0.42 kg CI 0.80 kg - CK 4.50 kg 32.86 kg CM 18.94 kg 5.98 kg CO 36.10 kg 20.29 kg CR 3.61 kg 10.85 kg CV 15.64 kg 81.30 kg Diogenites - 83.12 kg Eucrites 47.97 kg 116.56 kg Howardites 11.88 kg 32.63 kg K-Chondrites 0.02 kg - Lunar 5.43 kg 22.28 kg Martian 27.80 kg 8.15 kg Mesosiderites 34.06 kg 259.50 kg Pallasites 202.47 kg 6.25 kg R-Chondrites 1.38 kg 30.57 kg Ureilites 16.31 kg 49.40 kg Winonaites 0.08 kg 1.38 kg For the irons, I'm too lazy, there we have more from Antarctica than from NWA, And the ordinary chondrites.. well they are not so interesting and there are from Antarctica only 500 numbers with a larger tkw than 2.5kg. Hence a few single tons from whole Antarctica And anyway, to bring 1000 gallons of gasoline to the Pole costs as much to get a ton of ordinary chondrites from NWA delivered to the doorstep of the institute. So you see, of what small quantities we're talking at all. Seen the weights and the volume of money. Look the overall expenses for one single Antarctic meteorite season would easily have bought all that above listed desert completely. And if one would be so kind to spend another years expenses, with that money one could install in each and every Sahara country an university meteorite department equipped with a microprobe and pay there two meteoricists for the next 50 years. Money, profit motifs, that is a bugaboo of not so knowledgable people. Compared to quite any other university research or museums collecting activities, we're speaking with meteorites about peanuts. Neither any black market does exists, simply due to the lack of mass. Those articles always suggest, that the private collectors would buy up all new finds before the scientists could do that. Please Shawn - after Calcalong was forgotten, which two meteorites angered the scientists most? The two DaG-Moons. Now see Shawn - still today - after so long times and these two rocks were everything else than of the size of a mountain, you
Re: [meteorite-list] NYT story
Professor Agee, Thank you very much for coming onto the list and explaining your side of the story regarding your interview with the author of the story in the NYT. I certainly enjoyed reading your side of what you went through in the interview and it gave myself and I'm sure hundreds of others that read your post a better understanding of what the writer was interested in and that it seems to me that the author wasn't as interested in the facts that you gave him, but more in a sensationalistic story for Section D in Tuesday's paper. Thank you again for clarifying the misunderstandings that so many of us collectors had that love meteorites who were dumbfounded by the razor sharp barbs the writer used to lash out at our hobby and livelihood. Have a great day! Brian Cox Message: 3 Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 09:28:10 -0600 From: Carl Agee a...@unm.edu Subject: [meteorite-list] NYT story To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Message-ID: BANLkTi=2i-kl58mcb5thzqic1dsenez...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Since I am quoted in this article, here?s my reaction to it. The reporter seems very confused, in that he lumps together a story about the Gebel Kamil crater in Egypt and the legal meteorite trade (NWA) based primarily in Morocco. During the interview with him I spent a fair amount of time trying to explain to him how beneficial the NWA?s have been for planetary science research. For example, I mentioned how the number of rare Angrite meteorites has more than doubled due to African finds ? a huge enhancement to our understanding of the early solar system, and of course I mentioned all the lunars and martians, and other rare classes. I told him that I was not terribly well informed about the Gebel Kamil crater situation, but in my opinion the highest priority would be to protect the impact structure from degradation as these are quite rare on Earth. I also told him, that the Gebel Kamil meteorites on the other hand, are probably not hard to come by, and I?m sure if I wanted to study one for research, I could get a sample at a reasonable price or even get one as a donation from a collector, which museums benefit from frequently. I did get the feeling that he was hoping to hear something negative from me. As such he ended the interview rather quickly, but said something like ?oh, the NWA meteorites sounds like an interesting story, I need to come back to that at a later time?. So of course I was disappointed to see what mess the final NYT version was. -- Carl B. Agee Director and Curator, Institute of Meteoritics Professor, Earth and Planetary Sciences MSC03 2050 University of New Mexico Albuquerque NM 87131-1126 Tel: (505) 750-7172 Fax: (505) 277-3577 Email: a...@unm.edu http://epswww.unm.edu/iom/pers/agee.html __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] New York Times Article
Hi All, I'm just curious if anyone else has clicked on the author's name, William J. Broad under the title of the article, Black Market Trinkets From Space and waded through the thousands of articles that he has written alone or with up to four other writers. I went back to April 2009 and this is the first article I've found after searching through 15 long pages that has anything to do with Meteorites. The majority of his articles over the past 2 years have been in relationship to Nuclear Matters, such as Nuclear Arms in Iran, and most recently the Nuclear Plants in Japan. I'm curious why he even chose to write about Meteorites, and I am guessing that his editor told him to write it as a ( fill-in-piece ) for the boring $2.00 Tuesday paper, which doesn't get much circulation, since the majority of readers get the Weekender as you've seen advertised on TV with Friday, Saturday and Sunday or many people just get the Sunday Times. The bottom line seems to be that he's almost what you might call a Factory Line Writer that is given an assignment and then just rushes it out for print. I don't know this as a fact about him, but it is fairly clear, and this is a type of writing for many large papers, TV and radio and this is how it is done. I'm not standing up for him and this horribly written article so please no vicious emails, but just stating that he doesn't know anymore about meteorites than a 5 year old does about how to launch the Spacelab. It would be nice for him to write with an apology and corrections to his article, but I can't hold my breathe that long. I'm too old to wait for it and I'll probably be in my grave before that day comes. I feel the best way to handle this is to contact his editor or in the best case scenario the Editor in Chief to ask for a correction. The damage has unfortunately been done and we can't change what has already been so poorly written. All my best to all of you! Have a great day and may a meteorite land in your yard. Brian __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] New York Times Article
Brian and List, Do some research and find the reporter`s email and the other mis-quoted researcher that was from Tennessee and send your email to both of them AND this list. Bring this onto the metlist and have them discuss here. Posting to this list as a one-sided choir is pointless. As far as the NYT article, unless someone posts on the same scale the damage is done; perception as viewed by the public and the scientific community IS reality! Best Regards, Dirk...Tokyo --- On Wed, 4/6/11, Brian Cox searchingfor...@sbcglobal.net wrote: From: Brian Cox searchingfor...@sbcglobal.net Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] New York Times Article To: Meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Wednesday, April 6, 2011, 7:57 PM Hi All, I'm just curious if anyone else has clicked on the author's name, William J. Broad under the title of the article, Black Market Trinkets From Space and waded through the thousands of articles that he has written alone or with up to four other writers. I went back to April 2009 and this is the first article I've found after searching through 15 long pages that has anything to do with Meteorites. The majority of his articles over the past 2 years have been in relationship to Nuclear Matters, such as Nuclear Arms in Iran, and most recently the Nuclear Plants in Japan. I'm curious why he even chose to write about Meteorites, and I am guessing that his editor told him to write it as a ( fill-in-piece ) for the boring $2.00 Tuesday paper, which doesn't get much circulation, since the majority of readers get the Weekender as you've seen advertised on TV with Friday, Saturday and Sunday or many people just get the Sunday Times. The bottom line seems to be that he's almost what you might call a Factory Line Writer that is given an assignment and then just rushes it out for print. I don't know this as a fact about him, but it is fairly clear, and this is a type of writing for many large papers, TV and radio and this is how it is done. I'm not standing up for him and this horribly written article so please no vicious emails, but just stating that he doesn't know anymore about meteorites than a 5 year old does about how to launch the Spacelab. It would be nice for him to write with an apology and corrections to his article, but I can't hold my breathe that long. I'm too old to wait for it and I'll probably be in my grave before that day comes. I feel the best way to handle this is to contact his editor or in the best case scenario the Editor in Chief to ask for a correction. The damage has unfortunately been done and we can't change what has already been so poorly written. All my best to all of you! Have a great day and may a meteorite land in your yard. Brian __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] New York Times Article
Dirk and list, I think our best Media Face at this time certainly seems to be Geoff and Steve. Steve and Geoff do you think your producers would be able to fit a segment into your next show that deals with this perception of the Meteorite Community or even just a quick spot that states this is a legitimate hobby and that we are hard working honest people that love meteorites or something outstanding that would help to turn what this article had done into a positive view of us. I don't think this can wait much longer and needs to be addressed immediately. It would be a shame for this negative image to be spread out there in the world and that we're more than helpful in this hobby in assisting the scientific community and I think the sooner it's dealt with and squashed the better. My fear is that if we don't do something that bad stories and rumors will fly. If you guys are able to possibly even just add on a 30 second spot at the beginning or end of any of your reruns that it would help you guys and help all of us greatly. We definitely need good publicity and I don't want to put you guys on the spot and I know it's a lot to ask but if you could get your producers and the network to work something in I definitely feel that in the long run it would be great publicity for your show and would make sure you keep the viewers you have and hopefully bring in new viewers. All the best to everyone. Brian __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] New York Times Article
Yes Dirk, you are correct, as always and I've said it before. You're smarter than the average bear. I'm sure with research someone could get his direct email, but the only way through the NYT is when you click on his name, and it asks if you want to send an email and you have to fill out the form online, that I went to the NYT website and copied it below here or anyone can go to the article and click on his name. https://myaccount.nytimes.com/membercenter/emailus.html Anne did say she tried to contact and speak with him but he was too busy. Yes, you are right, we're just blowing into the wind here. Thanks again, Brian -Original Message- From: drtanuki Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2011 9:36 AM To: Brian Cox ; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] New York Times Article Brian and List, Do some research and find the reporter`s email and the other mis-quoted researcher that was from Tennessee and send your email to both of them AND this list. Bring this onto the metlist and have them discuss here. Posting to this list as a one-sided choir is pointless. As far as the NYT article, unless someone posts on the same scale the damage is done; perception as viewed by the public and the scientific community IS reality! Best Regards, Dirk...Tokyo --- On Wed, 4/6/11, Brian Cox searchingfor...@sbcglobal.net wrote: From: Brian Cox searchingfor...@sbcglobal.net Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] New York Times Article To: Meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Wednesday, April 6, 2011, 7:57 PM Hi All, I'm just curious if anyone else has clicked on the author's name, William J. Broad under the title of the article, Black Market Trinkets From Space and waded through the thousands of articles that he has written alone or with up to four other writers. I went back to April 2009 and this is the first article I've found after searching through 15 long pages that has anything to do with Meteorites. The majority of his articles over the past 2 years have been in relationship to Nuclear Matters, such as Nuclear Arms in Iran, and most recently the Nuclear Plants in Japan. I'm curious why he even chose to write about Meteorites, and I am guessing that his editor told him to write it as a ( fill-in-piece ) for the boring $2.00 Tuesday paper, which doesn't get much circulation, since the majority of readers get the Weekender as you've seen advertised on TV with Friday, Saturday and Sunday or many people just get the Sunday Times. The bottom line seems to be that he's almost what you might call a Factory Line Writer that is given an assignment and then just rushes it out for print. I don't know this as a fact about him, but it is fairly clear, and this is a type of writing for many large papers, TV and radio and this is how it is done. I'm not standing up for him and this horribly written article so please no vicious emails, but just stating that he doesn't know anymore about meteorites than a 5 year old does about how to launch the Spacelab. It would be nice for him to write with an apology and corrections to his article, but I can't hold my breathe that long. I'm too old to wait for it and I'll probably be in my grave before that day comes. I feel the best way to handle this is to contact his editor or in the best case scenario the Editor in Chief to ask for a correction. The damage has unfortunately been done and we can't change what has already been so poorly written. All my best to all of you! Have a great day and may a meteorite land in your yard. Brian __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Where to see meteorites in New York city?
Is there a physical location where The Macovich Collection can be viewed? Paul Swartz The Macovich Collection: Curated by Darryl Pitt http://www.macovich.com/ __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Dear NYT:
Dear NYT, I understand that times are hard and you can't afford to pay reporters what you used to. Changing to a paid subscription on the Internet will cost you lots of readers. I certainly will be reading the WaPo from now on. I can see how you have to drum up a readership. You have bills to pay. However, your article Black-Market Trinkets From Space crosses the line into rabble-rousing yellow journalism at its worst. The story was written by a man that as far as I can tell has never previously typed a word on the subject of meteoritics. To say this article was poorly researched would be an understatement of astronomical proportions. Does Ralph P. Harvey present a shred of evidence to back up his outrageous claims about the existence of a meteorite black market? The total monies that change hands in the 99.99% of the meteorite market that is legal is a pittance compared to the prices commanded by fine art, jewelry and rare coins. One good Picasso is worth many times more than all the meteorites legally traded in a year. While it's true that a handful of countries frown upon the exportation of meteorites without the proper paperwork, in the vast majorities of countries, the practice is legal. The market for meteorites is miniscule, aimed at a tiny tight-knit group of collectors, curators and scientists. Hardly enough money there to support a real black market, like the ones for drugs and weapons. Countries that have enacted restrictive meteorite laws like Australia have seen the supply of native Australian meteorites found dwindle down to almost nothing. It's a lose, lose situation. You're going to have to show me some evidence for the existence of well-organized Aussie meteorite smuggling rings. And who exactly would be buying these hot rocks anyway? Are they being fenced in pawn shops around the world? Pssst!! Hey buddy!! I got a sexy carbonaceous chondrite you've got to see. The whole idea of a meteorite black market is a ridiculous fantasy with no basis in fact whatsoever. The main problem with the article is its faulty premise. The writer confuses the rumors of the alleged illegality of the Egyptian Gebel Kamil fall with the perfectly legal trade in North West African meteorites. A quick reading of the abstruse Egyptian export laws reveal nothing against meteorites at the time Gebel Kamil was first collected. The legal status of Gebel Kamil has nothing to do with the NWA meteorite trade. You could learn this with 10 minutes of Googling. This story represents the death rattle of a once proud journalistic institution. It reeks of desperation. It reminds me of how the Chicago Tribune switched over to a semi-tabloid format in a desperate bid for a share of the dwindling readership market. I can remember the day that happened. I was reading the paper one day and I kept thinking, what is all this crap? Where's the serious journalism? It's at a place called the internets by one much wiser than me. The day of the newpaper paradigm of news dissemination is over. Another one bites the dust. --- Phil Whitmer __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Frozen Comet Had a Watery Past, UA Scientists Find (Stardust)
http://uanews.org/node/39041 Frozen Comet Had a Watery Past, UA Scientists Find By Daniel Stolte University of Arizona April 5, 2011 The discovery of minerals requiring liquid water for their formation challenges the paradigm of comets as dirty snowballs frozen in time. For the first time, scientists have found convincing evidence for the presence of liquid water in a comet, shattering the current paradigm that comets never get warm enough to melt the ice that makes up the bulk of their material. Current thinking suggests that it is impossible to form liquid water inside of a comet, said Dante Lauretta, an associate professor of cosmochemistry and planet formation at the UA's Lunar and Planetary Laboratory. Lauretta is the principal investigator of the UA team involved in analysis of samples returned by NASA's Stardust mission. UA graduate student Eve Berger, who led the study, and her colleagues from Johnson Space Center and the Naval Research Laboratory made the discovery analyzing dust grains brought back to Earth from comet Wild-2 as part of the Stardust mission. Launched in 1999, the Stardust spacecraft scooped up tiny particles released from the comet's surface in 2004 and brought them back to Earth in a capsule that landed in Utah two years later. In our samples, we found minerals that formed in the presence of liquid water, Berger said. At some point in its history, the comet must have harbored pockets of water. The discovery is to be published in an upcoming online edition of the journal Geochimica et Cosmochimica Acta. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL_udi=B6V66-52FDSX8-6_user=9555371_coverDate=03%2F22%2F2011_alid=1706890677_rdoc=1_fmt=high_orig=search_origin=search_zone=rslt_list_item_cdi=5806_sort=r_st=13_docanchor=view=c_ct=1_acct=C55186_version=1_urlVersion=0_userid=9555371md5=0801055df7bbf1b7d7b07b4e9f9d1ad7searchtype=a Comets are frequently called dirty snowballs because they consist of mostly water ice, peppered with rocky debris and frozen gases. Unlike asteroids, extraterrestrial chunks made up of rock and minerals, comets sport a tail - jets of gas and vapor that the high-energy particle stream coming from the sun flushes out of their frozen bodies. When the ice melted on Wild-2, the resulting warm water dissolved minerals that were present at the time and precipitated the iron and copper sulfide minerals we observed in our study, Lauretta said. The sulfide minerals formed between 50 and 200 degrees Celsius (122 and 392 degrees Fahrenheit), much warmer than the sub-zero temperatures predicted for the interior of a comet. Discovered in 1978 by Swiss astronomer Paul Wild, Wild-2 (pronounced Vilt) had traveled the outer reaches of the solar system for most of its 4.5 billion year history, until a close encounter with Jupiter's field of gravity sent the 3.4 mile-wide comet onto a new, highly elliptical orbit bringing it closer to the sun and the inner planets. Scientists believe that like many other comets, Wild-2 originated in the Kuiper belt, a region extending from beyond Neptune's orbit into deep space, containing icy debris left over from the formation of the solar system. Wild-2 is thought to have spent most of its time in the Kuiper belt, transiting on unstable orbits within the planetary system before Jupiter's gravity hurled it into the neighborhood of the sun. The discovery of the low-temperature sulfide minerals is important for our understanding of how comets formed - which in turn tells us about the origin of the solar system. In addition to providing evidence of liquid water, the discovered ingredients put an upper limit to the temperatures Wild-2 encountered during its origin and history. The mineral we found - cubanite - is very rare in sample collections from space, Berger said. It comes in two forms - the one we found only exists below 210 degrees Celsius (99 degrees Fahrenheit). This is exciting because it tells us those grains have not seen temperatures higher than that. Cubanite is a copper iron sulfide, which is also found in ore deposits on Earth exposed to heated groundwater and in a particular type of meteorite. Wherever the cubanite formed, it stayed cool, she added. If this mineral formed on the comet, it has implications for heat sources on comets in general. According to Berger, two ways to generate heat sources on comets are minor collisions with other objects and radioactive decay of elements present in the comet's mixture. Heat generated at the site of minor impacts might generate pockets of water in which the sulfides could form very quickly, within about a year (as opposed to millions of years). This could happen at any point in the comet's history. Radioactive decay on the other hand, would point to a very early formation of the minerals since the radioactive nuclides would decay over time and cause the heat source to flicker out. The presence of the cubanite and the other sulfide minerals helps scientists
[meteorite-list] Meteorite hunting (LAWS) by Country
List: This got me thinking: Is there any documented source (that's reliable and up to date) regarding the official laws for meteorite hunting, collecting, and selling for each country? I have read a lot of views on this matter on the list and elsewhere, and it seems so silly not to have the correct information available somewhere. It would be very helpful for meteorite collectors to have this information available and documented in one place; perhaps in a publication somewhere. Knowing which countries require permits and how to obtain them... etc. Much Thanks, Greg S. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NYT story
Hi all Yep I think it's me that is quoted in the NYT. I've deleted my latest post on CN due to harassment that turned up in my mail. Lars -Oprindelig meddelelse- Fra: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] På vegne af Peter Scherff Sendt: 6. april 2011 02:33 Til: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Emne: Re: [meteorite-list] NYT story Hi, The blog in question is the Cloudy Nights Space Rocks forum. The quote is from Lars Zielke. Thanks, Peter Scherff From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Meteorites USA Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2011 8:25 PM To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NYT story Very good catch on the Bob! I can't believe I missed that. How in the world did the editor let that quote slide without a source? I wonder if it was said at all. Regards, Eric On 4/5/2011 5:20 PM, Bob King wrote: Hi everyone, Besides the terrible reporting and obvious bias, I was curious about the meteorite blogger in the article who said he/she was feeling guilty. What?? We have no idea who this is or if that person exists. I find it amazing the editor let that go through. Bob __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1209 / Virus Database: 1500/3553 - Release Date: 04/05/11 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Chicxulub Impact Crater focus for ocean drilling plans
Dino crater focus for ocean drilling plans by Richard Black BBC News, April 5, 2011 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12969599 Researchers To Drill Chicxulub Crater, RedOrbit http://www.redorbit.com/news/science/2024969/researchers_to_drill_chicxulub_crater/ Scientific Drilling of the Chicxulub Impact Crater - Various PDF Files http://canadaodp.earthsciences.dal.ca/new/drilling_proposal/morgan_09abs.pdf http://meetingorganizer.copernicus.org/EGU2011/EGU2011-9279.pdf http://www.iodp.org/iodp_journals/11_Joint_IODP_ICDP_SD4.pdf Yours, Paul H. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NYT story
Hi Lars and List, Nobody should harass you for expressing your feelings. Your heart was in the right place, and it is troublesome to consider that one might be unknowingly obstructing scientific work. In that case, like I said before, the scientific value of Gebel Kamil is not the meteorites themselves, but the impact crater. Owning a Gebel Kamil iron is not depriving science. But, whoever is harvesting the meteorites may be doing harm to the impact structure during the process of removing the specimens. We don't know this for sure, because we don't even know who exactly removed the specimens - we can only assume it was the Egyptians because of the location of the crater and dangerous nature of the area. (which is militarized and near the Sudanese border) I think it is unfortunate that anyone should harass you over this. Your comment was made long ago, when the Gebel Kamil story was new and facts were still emerging. The whole story was not known then, and it is still not known now. As we discussed in the blog thread, there may be an ethical grey-area involved in the removal of the meteorites, but it was very premature (and unnecessary) for the NYT writer to unilaterally proclaim the entire meteorite world as a black market - that was wrong and libelous. Best regards, MikeG -- Mike Gilmer - Galactic Stone Ironworks Meteorites Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone News Feed - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 Twitter - http://twitter.com/galacticstone EOM - http://www.encyclopedia-of-meteorites.com/collection.aspx?id=1564 --- On 4/6/11, Lars Zielke zie...@nightsky.dk wrote: Hi all Yep I think it's me that is quoted in the NYT. I've deleted my latest post on CN due to harassment that turned up in my mail. Lars -Oprindelig meddelelse- Fra: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] På vegne af Peter Scherff Sendt: 6. april 2011 02:33 Til: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Emne: Re: [meteorite-list] NYT story Hi, The “blog” in question is the Cloudy Nights Space Rocks forum. The quote is from Lars Zielke. Thanks, Peter Scherff From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Meteorites USA Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2011 8:25 PM To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NYT story Very good catch on the Bob! I can't believe I missed that. How in the world did the editor let that quote slide without a source? I wonder if it was said at all. Regards, Eric On 4/5/2011 5:20 PM, Bob King wrote: Hi everyone, Besides the terrible reporting and obvious bias, I was curious about the meteorite blogger in the article who said he/she was feeling guilty. What?? We have no idea who this is or if that person exists. I find it amazing the editor let that go through. Bob __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1209 / Virus Database: 1500/3553 - Release Date: 04/05/11 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list -- __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Bolide in Estonia and Finland 5APR2011
Dear List, Tallinn, Estonia Bolide 20:40-20:50 Europe/Tallinn 5th april, 2011 http://lunarmeteoritehunters.blogspot.com/2011/04/finland-meteor-shooting-star-5apr2011.html Dirk Ross...Tokyo __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] New York Times Article
What we must look for is the possibility that international newspapers might pick up this story and reprint it or run their own story minus the facts. As they will never let the facts get in the way of a good story. Chris Spratt (Via my iPhone) __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NYT story
Hello everybody, Thank you Eric, and you are quite right, this was not an exact quote! ;-) My interview lasted quite a bit longer than yours, but he only asked about the meteorite world and market in general terms, and never mentioned Gemel Kamil. I have been doing some research, and contacting people, and I am now writing a point by point rebuttal that will be published in the April issue of Insights, the IMCA newsletter, in just a few days. Just a bit of patience please. Thanks. Anne M. Black _http://www.impactika.com/_ (http://www.impactika.com/) _IMPACTIKA@aol.com_ (mailto:impact...@aol.com) President, I.M.C.A. Inc. _http://www.imca.cc/_ (http://www.imca.cc/) In a message dated 4/5/2011 3:39:30 PM Mountain Daylight Time, star-b...@tx.rr.com writes: I was driving home on Friday when a guy called and identified himself as a reporter from the NY Times. He said he talked to this scientist (I didn't catch the name) who thought collectors were bad for meteorite studies and then he said he talked to Anne Black and she said that was B*** S***! I remember thinking that I doubted Anne used that phrase ;-) He asked me about gebel kamil and exporting it from Egypt. I told him I knew of no law in Egypt that even mentions meteorites let alone making export illegal. I told him that there were laws about artifacts, but they don't mention meteorites and meteorites are not artifacts. I never said I thought I was beyond Egyptian law because my gebel kamil was purchased in the USA, I just didn't know of any law that applied. Conversation ended quickly after that. The photo of the looted 60 gram piece is not one of mine. I was surprised to be the featured bad guy/dealer in the article. According to my cell phone the whole conversation lasted only 4 minutes and 26 seconds. The response on my end has been rather quiet, 3 new customers, 2 people who wanted their hematite identified as a meteorite, one guy from the Harvard business school who thought we should get with the scientists and come up with a classification system because that would make everybody happy and the meteorites worth more (told him the reporter forgot to mention such a thing already existed), one guy that thought it was an interesting story and wanted help make an Indiana Jones type movie out of it (sent him to Mike Farmer), and one liberal retard who vented not only on stealing history, destroying the environment, but also on Arizona psychos selling automatic weapons etc, etc, etc. Another quiet day at the office. Eric Olson http://www.star-bits.com __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite hunting (LAWS) by Country
Hi all, I'm totally a newby on this particular list - and am a very new person to the study of meteorites, and of course finding them. So please understand that if anyone doesn't have a dog in the hunting debate, it's me. However, I do want to make a comment regarding the international discussions. Mike, you definitely have a dog in the legal discussion. You've lived it. I'm glad you made it home OK. Over the past 15 years, I've spent a considerable amount of military time in the middle east. 5 tours worth, including three combat ones. Many of those were working directly with government leaders of multiple levels, of at least 6 different nations and many more tribal backgrounds - Kurdish, to Bedouin, Sunni to Iraqi Christian and so on. We westerners tend to make some serious mistakes regarding interpretations of laws and customs. We are programmed by our culture to concentrate on the letters of the law, procedures and fine print, and discount the more human factors involved. This is not how most middle eastern countries work. It is a well proven fact that there are many levels of citizenry in soutwest asia, with wide variations therein. One of the first things I learned in Saudi Arabia is that you are always at the mercy of your sponsor (or sponsor organization), and for every level of removal from the cultural rule of law you are, you must compensate accordingly with deliberate diligence to stay out of even the hint of trouble. In Saudi Arabia, I was obviously not a citizen, not Muslim, not directly contracted by an industrial sponsor, and did not have an established personal relationship with relevant government officials. Many of our military members were arrested and detained for infractions a Saudi citizen would have been given nothing more than a verbal warning. A minor fine to a Saudi citizen could be a prison sentence for you. You MUST be careful. Be very careful in statements like the law does not specifically state meteorites. That's a very western point of view that can get you into trouble. Regardless of what the law states in writing, the interpretation by judges will wildly vary. The definition of artifact is whatever they define it as. That could be a rock, arrow, meteorite, or teacup. My experience in Saudi was very good. I took the time to understand, accept, and appreciate the culture, and it fostered some wonderful friendships. But I also made serious effort to avoid trouble. Some countries are more liberal than others (Jordan Vs. Saudi, UAE Vs. Qatar), but be careful and be informed. Just saying that you need to fully understand the laws, customs, and cultural rules before leaping into assumptions - especially when you intend to leave with more than you came with. James --- On Wed, 4/6/11, Thunder Stone stanleygr...@hotmail.com wrote: From: Thunder Stone stanleygr...@hotmail.com Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorite hunting (LAWS) by Country To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Wednesday, April 6, 2011, 12:16 PM List: This got me thinking: Is there any documented source (that's reliable and up to date) regarding the official laws for meteorite hunting, collecting, and selling for each country? I have read a lot of views on this matter on the list and elsewhere, and it seems so silly not to have the correct information available somewhere. It would be very helpful for meteorite collectors to have this information available and documented in one place; perhaps in a publication somewhere. Knowing which countries require permits and how to obtain them... etc. Much Thanks, Greg S. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] NYT story
Hello Martin I would have to agree people have their own neish when it comes to meteorites and as you can see ordinary meteorites to you are not interesting. But to science ordinary or not, meteorites play a pivotal roll in the exploration of new discoveries of where we came from, who are we, where we are going, and these are questions we will continue to try to answer till we cease to exist. I see that NYT is banking off the scientific importance meteorites have for science and are banking off how they can get more readerships from an article about rocks from space. It says it all in the title…. Black-Market Trinkets From Space. That would get my attention even if it was not about space. It could even say Black-Market knitting trades, or Black-Market coin collecting trades. That phase will lure anyone into reading that article, which I have to say is bad reporting on their part but good for readership. The real problem isn’t that we as a society have gotten bumber, it’s that our lexicon has changed and the way we perceive reality has shifted to more on glorifying the negative, glorifying corruption and focusing on tabloids that sensationalize GET RICH trends. NYT knew that a normal story about meteorites wouldn’t pull in readership, meaning the mass. How could they make a simple article seem more appealing to all and they found it. Corruption, stealing, illegal trading, Black-Market, makes for a good sci fi thriller, however the real picture on how meteorites are collected and used for science is false. As you can see NYT isn’t a place for scholarly articles but a place to be informed on uniformed articles. As for the real trading that goes one I have to agree that what you said is dead on. The market isn’t made up of millions and billions of dollars to be had, but it’s made up of meteorites collected from around the world. These specimens from the far reaches of the dry desert sands, to the white snow caps of Antarctica, to locked up historic meteorites in institutions and museums all have a common goal, to progress science and the understanding of evolution of the universe. I do wish that the NYT hadn’t said what they said, but they did, and all we can do is move forward. I like to focus on the positive side, even if it’s from the negative. I can say this, the article in NYT has brought the science and meteorite colleting world even closers, and by doing so, we as a group will have a stronger understanding where we stand when it comes to meteorites and the place they hold in the evolution of the universe. Shawn Alan IMCA 1633 eBaystore http://shop.ebay.com/photophlow/m.html [meteorite-list] NYT story Martin Altmann altmann at meteorite-martin.de Wed Apr 6 07:37:17 EDT 2011 Previous message: [meteorite-list] NYT story Next message: [meteorite-list] NYT story Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] Hello Shawn, I think one aspect in your thoughts isn't fully correct. Understandable, because you're occupied with historical meteorites. Historical meteorites are by far the most expensive meteorites you can have. Why are they so expensive? Because of the poor availability. Why is so few available - rright, because the very most of their tkws is locked away in institutional collections. Hence they are not the problem, the researchers and scientists do already have them. Shawn, this material stems from the times, where there existed not more than 2000-3000 meteorites on the whole World. Times have changed. We have now a couple of tens of thousands meteorites more, within only 3 decades. The Antarctic ones and the desert finds. Meteorite science, the advance in knowledge, the new results - that all is done by means of these new finds. It's all about them. And they don't cost a thing anymore. That black market, profit thing - it is a true sham debate, a discussion nobody in expert circles is having, but which is carried in only from laymen from outside. You have to see the dimensions. Let me help you. Let's take the Bulletin Database. I give you now a summary by types of all that what was found - in 35 years - by ANSMET, NIPR, PRIC, KOREAMET, EUROMET together. And the same only for that what - in 11 years - was coming from NWA. Only NWA, the couple of thousands of entries for the other Sahara finds (the DaGs, HaHs, SAHs, Acfers, Tanezroufts) I leave out, as well as the complete Oman (Dhofar, JaH, Shisr...). Only NWA: Antarctica NWA Acap/Lod 2.73 kg 25.18 kg Angrites 0.02 kg 7.24 kg Brachinites 0.25 kg 8.16 kg Aubrites 5.37 kg 11.14 kg (still biased by some El Haggouina pairings) Carbonaceous CB 0.13 kg 0.90 kg CH 0.21 kg 0.42 kg CI 0.80 kg - CK 4.50 kg 32.86 kg CM 18.94 kg 5.98 kg CO 36.10 kg 20.29 kg CR 3.61 kg 10.85 kg CV 15.64 kg 81.30 kg Diogenites - 83.12 kg Eucrites 47.97 kg 116.56 kg
[meteorite-list] OT Be Cool and hunt rocks!
Dear List, Working on training some chimps to hunt rocks along with the rats. Have a great day all. Dirk...Tokyo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPHgcdHVck0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy_3m5bq8jY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xG7LbYeaLHY __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] New York Times Article
Hi Brian, but do they have the credibility for the common NYT-reader? According the article they are looters, drug lords driven by rampant greed. Neither the others from the list here could do it, cause they are junkies. Nor IMCA can help, because in that former Gebel Kamil article in New Scientist IMCA was umasked as the meteorite trade's dogsbody. I agree with Matt and others. In principle only a rebuttal of an esteemed meteorite scientist would be credible. (Best would be of course by Dr.Harvey himself). Because so far they weren't defamed that much in public. Only by Dr.Bland, expressing his hysteric dilemma to be dependent on the private finds, but helping the proliferation in doing research on them. And the intellectual all-time high of Brother Consolmagno to set his esteemed colleagues on one level with murderers (The Jesuits are the most papal order. And in the doctrine, see e.g. the encyclical Donum Vitae the destruction of embryonic stem cells is equivalent with abortion and murder. Was even once suggested by the papal family council to excommunicate stem cell researchers and women giving ovules for that kind of research too. So he certainly can't tell, that his comparison was an accidental slip) ..is fortunately not so widely known. That Pharisee! He can run in the confessional after each time having worked on such a supposedly illicitly collected meteorite - and the knee bench inside must be very worn meanwhile - on so many he worked! But others? Oops, have to puke again, when I read the quote again Gulp Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Brian Cox Gesendet: Mittwoch, 6. April 2011 17:08 An: Meteorite-list Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] New York Times Article Dirk and list, I think our best Media Face at this time certainly seems to be Geoff and Steve. Steve and Geoff do you think your producers would be able to fit a segment into your next show that deals with this perception of the Meteorite Community or even just a quick spot that states this is a legitimate hobby and that we are hard working honest people that love meteorites or something outstanding that would help to turn what this article had done into a positive view of us. I don't think this can wait much longer and needs to be addressed immediately. It would be a shame for this negative image to be spread out there in the world and that we're more than helpful in this hobby in assisting the scientific community and I think the sooner it's dealt with and squashed the better. My fear is that if we don't do something that bad stories and rumors will fly. If you guys are able to possibly even just add on a 30 second spot at the beginning or end of any of your reruns that it would help you guys and help all of us greatly. We definitely need good publicity and I don't want to put you guys on the spot and I know it's a lot to ask but if you could get your producers and the network to work something in I definitely feel that in the long run it would be great publicity for your show and would make sure you keep the viewers you have and hopefully bring in new viewers. All the best to everyone. Brian __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NYT story
Hi Shawn, I fully agree with you, I wanted only to turn down the pseudo-argument, that science would get the short end of the stick, because meteorites would be purportedly so expensive, and that therefore all commercialism has to be banned by law. Because that horse all articles like that are riding, and unfortunately here and there scientists are quoted like that. The commerce is the motor for all these meteorites being recovered at all, and that not since yesterday, but for 200 years already. And of course science gave always also fuel for that motor. Cause as demonstrated so many times - for the public cash box and for the institutes budgets - the commercially generated meteorites are by far the most affordable ones, they help to save a lot of funds. And seen the variety of types and the volumes, if we want to sustain the standard and the quality of meteorite research, which we had now the last 10 or 20 years - those commercially generated meteorites are an integral part of modern meteorite science, it wouldn't work without them. The find rates and the kind of material found on publically funded searchs are known, as well as the financial means spent for these undertakings are known. So we don't have to discuss. It's about peanuts. And these clouded minds - it is a remote and strange expectation, that those who do that excellent performance to find all these meteorites for them, shouldn't be allowed to make their living from that. No matter whether doorman, gardener, journalist, dentist or meteoricist - it's a childish vision, that they all should work for free. And that what you observe in the sandbox of Sahara, Australia or Oman, Shawn - at least we learned it all as children in our sandboxes, that it is inadmissible to wrest the shovel from our playfellow, with the sole justification: I just want it. If some of these yellers had a hard childhood we are all sorry for that, but that can't serve as an excuse for their weird demanding attitude. Happy Playing! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Shawn Alan Gesendet: Mittwoch, 6. April 2011 20:53 An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: [meteorite-list] NYT story Hello Martin I would have to agree people have their own neish when it comes to meteorites and as you can see ordinary meteorites to you are not interesting. But to science ordinary or not, meteorites play a pivotal roll in the exploration of new discoveries of where we came from, who are we, where we are going, and these are questions we will continue to try to answer till we cease to exist. I see that NYT is banking off the scientific importance meteorites have for science and are banking off how they can get more readerships from an article about rocks from space. It says it all in the title…. Black-Market Trinkets From Space. That would get my attention even if it was not about space. It could even say Black-Market knitting trades, or Black-Market coin collecting trades. That phase will lure anyone into reading that article, which I have to say is bad reporting on their part but good for readership. The real problem isn’t that we as a society have gotten bumber, it’s that our lexicon has changed and the way we perceive reality has shifted to more on glorifying the negative, glorifying corruption and focusing on tabloids that sensationalize GET RICH trends. NYT knew that a normal story about meteorites wouldn’t pull in readership, meaning the mass. How could they make a simple article seem more appealing to all and they found it. Corruption, stealing, illegal trading, Black-Market, makes for a good sci fi thriller, however the real picture on how meteorites are collected and used for science is false. As you can see NYT isn’t a place for scholarly articles but a place to be informed on uniformed articles. As for the real trading that goes one I have to agree that what you said is dead on. The market isn’t made up of millions and billions of dollars to be had, but it’s made up of meteorites collected from around the world. These specimens from the far reaches of the dry desert sands, to the white snow caps of Antarctica, to locked up historic meteorites in institutions and museums all have a common goal, to progress science and the understanding of evolution of the universe. I do wish that the NYT hadn’t said what they said, but they did, and all we can do is move forward. I like to focus on the positive side, even if it’s from the negative. I can say this, the article in NYT has brought the science and meteorite colleting world even closers, and by doing so, we as a group will have a stronger understanding where we stand when it comes to meteorites and the place they hold in the evolution of the universe. Shawn Alan IMCA 1633 eBaystore http://shop.ebay.com/photophlow/m.html [meteorite-list]
[meteorite-list] Fwd: BS In The NYT: Black Market Trinkets From Space
Hey Sonny - could you do me a favor and post this to the meteorite list? I keep trying but it ain't showin' up. Cheers, Marc --- Howdy all I can't exactly label myself esteemed but I'll say a few words... The short version is, I have a lot more respect for Ralph Harvey than I do for the NYT. His quote in that article looks like the sort of thing that gets cherry-picked for effect. Yes, there are meteorites that are bought and sold illegally, and that's bad. There are also a hell of a lot of meteorites in research collections that would be rusting away in a desert somewhere if it weren't for collectors. That's good. I have no doubt that Ralph is fully aware of both sides of the argument, and I highly doubt that he intended to label all meteorite collection everywhere as a flaming travesty against all of humanity, the majority of puppies, and most unicorns everywhere. Here's another recent article that makes a point pertinent to this discussion (before it loses track and goes Fox-bashing), namely that science reporting has taken a sharp decrease in quality lately as the major media outlets have done away with dedicated science writers: http://tinyurl.com/3llqgay Recent stories on life in CI meteorites, natural atomic bomb blasts on Mars, and now this story are symptoms of a bigger problem, namely the lack of well-informed treatment of science issues by the major media outlets. Science stories are increasingly handled by writers who are looking for high-impact, wow-factor news items as opposed to lower-key but better-informed articles by science journalism professionals. I can say from my own experience that it is rather frustrating to attend conferences where I see all manner of well thought-out, interesting research presented, and then to turn around and see little more than sensationalistic crap wind up front and center in the major media. That's not good for anyone - the really interesting stuff never reaches a wider audience, and the public winds up thinking that scientists waste their time and tax dollars on embarrassing nonsense like the examples I stated above. I think that's the effect we're seeing in this NYT article at least in part, and while it is unfortunate it doesn't surprise me much. Cheers, Marc Fries On Apr 4, 2011, at 12:51 PM, m...@mhmeteorites.com wrote: Perhaps one of the many esteemed researchers on this list would be kind enough to write a rebuttal. Matt Matt Morgan Mile High Meteorites http://www.mhmeteorites.com P.O. Box 151293 Lakewood, CO 80215 -Original Message- From: Yinan Wang veom...@gmail.com Sender: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 14:44:02 To: Meteorite-listmeteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BS In The NYT: Black Market Trinkets From Space For those who are inclined to do so, you can certainly write a letter to the editor which may be published in the Opinions page of the NY times as a response: http://www.nytimes.com/content/help/site/editorial/letters/letters.html?ref=letters -YvW On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 2:30 PM, Meteorites USA e...@meteoritesusa.com wrote: This is one of the most sensationalized, biased, uninformed, and skewed article I've ever read on NYT's website regarding meteorites. Mainly the article focuses on the Gebel Kamil iron meteorite, however it paints a grim picture and tries to draw a connection to all meteorites implying that the private market is somehow damaging the science. Black Market Trinkets From Space: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/05/science/05meteorite.html Quote: Popular or not, the meteorites were taboo. In Egypt and elsewhere, scientists say, it is illegal without a permit to remove meteorites from a country. Quote: The scientists say they have relatively few samples compared with the booming illicit sales. Quote: Dr. Harvey of Case Western Reserve said the quandary applied to the scientific community as a whole. The rampant looting of meteorite sites and skyrocketing prices for the fragments, he said, “dramatically reduce who can get samples to do the research. Quote: The black market has exploded in size mainly because of a rush of new meteorites arriving from North Africa and the Arabian Peninsula. Quote: The collectors association, founded in 2004 in Nevada, now has hundreds of members around the globe. And while some traders deal in legitimate exports, many do not. One buyer expressed remorse after reading about scientific angst over the thriving market. “I’m very ashamed,” the buyer wrote on a blog. “I’m surely a part of the problem. This article is irresponsible and borderline yellow journalism from the NYT. They should be ashamed for running such a biased and uninformed story. Well over half of the article weighs on the disadvantages and more than infers a possible damage to science which is not there. It almost completely
Re: [meteorite-list] Fwd: BS In The NYT: Black Market Trinkets From Space
I can see it. -- Stuart McDaniel Lawndale, NC IMCA#9052 http://www.facebook.com/Stuart.McDaniel.No.1 wahlpe...@aol.com wrote: = Hey Sonny - could you do me a favor and post this to the meteorite list? I keep trying but it ain't showin' up. Cheers, Marc --- Howdy all I can't exactly label myself esteemed but I'll say a few words... The short version is, I have a lot more respect for Ralph Harvey than I do for the NYT. His quote in that article looks like the sort of thing that gets cherry-picked for effect. Yes, there are meteorites that are bought and sold illegally, and that's bad. There are also a hell of a lot of meteorites in research collections that would be rusting away in a desert somewhere if it weren't for collectors. That's good. I have no doubt that Ralph is fully aware of both sides of the argument, and I highly doubt that he intended to label all meteorite collection everywhere as a flaming travesty against all of humanity, the majority of puppies, and most unicorns everywhere. Here's another recent article that makes a point pertinent to this discussion (before it loses track and goes Fox-bashing), namely that science reporting has taken a sharp decrease in quality lately as the major media outlets have done away with dedicated science writers: http://tinyurl.com/3llqgay Recent stories on life in CI meteorites, natural atomic bomb blasts on Mars, and now this story are symptoms of a bigger problem, namely the lack of well-informed treatment of science issues by the major media outlets. Science stories are increasingly handled by writers who are looking for high-impact, wow-factor news items as opposed to lower-key but better-informed articles by science journalism professionals. I can say from my own experience that it is rather frustrating to attend conferences where I see all manner of well thought-out, interesting research presented, and then to turn around and see little more than sensationalistic crap wind up front and center in the major media. That's not good for anyone - the really interesting stuff never reaches a wider audience, and the public winds up thinking that scientists waste their time and tax dollars on embarrassing nonsense like the examples I stated above. I think that's the effect we're seeing in this NYT article at least in part, and while it is unfortunate it doesn't surprise me much. Cheers, Marc Fries On Apr 4, 2011, at 12:51 PM, m...@mhmeteorites.com wrote: Perhaps one of the many esteemed researchers on this list would be kind enough to write a rebuttal. Matt Matt Morgan Mile High Meteorites http://www.mhmeteorites.com P.O. Box 151293 Lakewood, CO 80215 -Original Message- From: Yinan Wang veom...@gmail.com Sender: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 14:44:02 To: Meteorite-listmeteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BS In The NYT: Black Market Trinkets From Space For those who are inclined to do so, you can certainly write a letter to the editor which may be published in the Opinions page of the NY times as a response: http://www.nytimes.com/content/help/site/editorial/letters/letters.html?ref=letters -YvW On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 2:30 PM, Meteorites USA e...@meteoritesusa.com wrote: This is one of the most sensationalized, biased, uninformed, and skewed article I've ever read on NYT's website regarding meteorites. Mainly the article focuses on the Gebel Kamil iron meteorite, however it paints a grim picture and tries to draw a connection to all meteorites implying that the private market is somehow damaging the science. Black Market Trinkets From Space: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/05/science/05meteorite.html Quote: Popular or not, the meteorites were taboo. In Egypt and elsewhere, scientists say, it is illegal without a permit to remove meteorites from a country. Quote: The scientists say they have relatively few samples compared with the booming illicit sales. Quote: Dr. Harvey of Case Western Reserve said the quandary applied to the scientific community as a whole. The rampant looting of meteorite sites and skyrocketing prices for the fragments, he said, “dramatically reduce who can get samples to do the research. Quote: The black market has exploded in size mainly because of a rush of new meteorites arriving from North Africa and the Arabian Peninsula. Quote: The collectors association, founded in 2004 in Nevada, now has hundreds of members around the globe. And while some traders deal in legitimate exports, many do not. One buyer expressed remorse after reading about scientific angst over the thriving market. “I’m very ashamed,” the buyer wrote on a blog. “I’m surely a part of the problem. This article is irresponsible and borderline yellow journalism from the NYT. They should be ashamed for running such a biased and uninformed story.
Re: [meteorite-list] Fwd: BS In The NYT: Black Market Trinkets From Space
Perhaps Dr. Ralph Harvey could tell us what he told the press since he chose to engage with them. - Original Message From: wahlpe...@aol.com wahlpe...@aol.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wed, April 6, 2011 12:37:06 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Fwd: BS In The NYT: Black Market Trinkets From Space Hey Sonny - could you do me a favor and post this to the meteorite list? I keep trying but it ain't showin' up. Cheers, Marc --- Howdy all I can't exactly label myself esteemed but I'll say a few words... The short version is, I have a lot more respect for Ralph Harvey than I do for the NYT. His quote in that article looks like the sort of thing that gets cherry-picked for effect. Yes, there are meteorites that are bought and sold illegally, and that's bad. There are also a hell of a lot of meteorites in research collections that would be rusting away in a desert somewhere if it weren't for collectors. That's good. I have no doubt that Ralph is fully aware of both sides of the argument, and I highly doubt that he intended to label all meteorite collection everywhere as a flaming travesty against all of humanity, the majority of puppies, and most unicorns everywhere. Here's another recent article that makes a point pertinent to this discussion (before it loses track and goes Fox-bashing), namely that science reporting has taken a sharp decrease in quality lately as the major media outlets have done away with dedicated science writers: http://tinyurl.com/3llqgay Recent stories on life in CI meteorites, natural atomic bomb blasts on Mars, and now this story are symptoms of a bigger problem, namely the lack of well-informed treatment of science issues by the major media outlets. Science stories are increasingly handled by writers who are looking for high-impact, wow-factor news items as opposed to lower-key but better-informed articles by science journalism professionals. I can say from my own experience that it is rather frustrating to attend conferences where I see all manner of well thought-out, interesting research presented, and then to turn around and see little more than sensationalistic crap wind up front and center in the major media. That's not good for anyone - the really interesting stuff never reaches a wider audience, and the public winds up thinking that scientists waste their time and tax dollars on embarrassing nonsense like the examples I stated above. I think that's the effect we're seeing in this NYT article at least in part, and while it is unfortunate it doesn't surprise me much. Cheers, Marc Fries On Apr 4, 2011, at 12:51 PM, m...@mhmeteorites.com wrote: Perhaps one of the many esteemed researchers on this list would be kind enough to write a rebuttal. Matt Matt Morgan Mile High Meteorites http://www.mhmeteorites.com P.O. Box 151293 Lakewood, CO 80215 -Original Message- From: Yinan Wang veom...@gmail.com Sender: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 14:44:02 To: Meteorite-listmeteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BS In The NYT: Black Market Trinkets From Space For those who are inclined to do so, you can certainly write a letter to the editor which may be published in the Opinions page of the NY times as a response: http://www.nytimes.com/content/help/site/editorial/letters/letters.html?ref=letters -YvW On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 2:30 PM, Meteorites USA e...@meteoritesusa.com wrote: This is one of the most sensationalized, biased, uninformed, and skewed article I've ever read on NYT's website regarding meteorites. Mainly the article focuses on the Gebel Kamil iron meteorite, however it paints a grim picture and tries to draw a connection to all meteorites implying that the private market is somehow damaging the science. Black Market Trinkets From Space: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/05/science/05meteorite.html Quote: Popular or not, the meteorites were taboo. In Egypt and elsewhere, scientists say, it is illegal without a permit to remove meteorites from a country. Quote: The scientists say they have relatively few samples compared with the booming illicit sales. Quote: Dr. Harvey of Case Western Reserve said the quandary applied to the scientific community as a whole. The rampant looting of meteorite sites and skyrocketing prices for the fragments, he said, “dramatically reduce who can get samples to do the research. Quote: The black market has exploded in size mainly because of a rush of new meteorites arriving from North Africa and the Arabian Peninsula. Quote: The collectors association, founded in 2004 in Nevada, now has hundreds of members around the globe. And while some traders deal in legitimate exports, many do not. One buyer expressed remorse after reading about scientific angst over the thriving market. “I’m very ashamed,” the buyer wrote on a blog. “I’m surely a part of
Re: [meteorite-list] Fwd: BS In The NYT: Black Market Trinkets From Space
The NYT put quotes around what Dr. Ralph Harvey said. This means to me that they where reporting directly what was said during the interview. I have a hard time believing that any form of media would liable themselves by putting quotes around something that was completely made up. In any case if you talk to the media, you should take responsibility for the backlash that it creates more often than not. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fwd: BS In The NYT: Black Market Trinkets From Space
Adam Said - I have a hard time believing that any form of media would liable themselves by putting quotes around something that was completely made up. Really? It happens more often than not. The majority of reporting in the media (mainstream or not) is either exaggeration, misinformation, or outright lies - designed to maximize viewership and advertising revenue. Some outlets are worse than others, but journalistic integrity has been dead for at least two decades, possibly longer. Best regards and happy huntings, MikeG -- Mike Gilmer - Galactic Stone Ironworks Meteorites Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone News Feed - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 Twitter - http://twitter.com/galacticstone EOM - http://www.encyclopedia-of-meteorites.com/collection.aspx?id=1564 --- On 4/6/11, Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com wrote: The NYT put quotes around what Dr. Ralph Harvey said. This means to me that they where reporting directly what was said during the interview. I have a hard time believing that any form of media would liable themselves by putting quotes around something that was completely made up. In any case if you talk to the media, you should take responsibility for the backlash that it creates more often than not. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list -- __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fwd: BS In The NYT: Black Market Trinkets From Space
Hello Marc I think you are right in many aspects you mentioned, Marc. This 'sensationalistic crap' does not only show in magazines and newspapers but also in many modern science documentaries on TV. With all the high-speed visual editing the viewer is often left in a state of being somehow 'numb'. You can't speak of a leading 'form follows function' paradigm anymore. The WOW impression is caused by the visual editing rather than by the exciting facts about the (let me quote my favorite German expression these days, coined by Mr. Altmann) EXOTISCHE REALITAET, the 'exotic reality', which is unfortunately to many people more unreal and alien than any fictional world. 'Hollywood-Reality' in science reporting does only distract the readers and viewers from what could really take their breath away: facts from the 'exotic reality' we live in. Cheers, Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: wahlpe...@aol.com Gesendet: 06.04.2011 21:37:06 An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: [meteorite-list] Fwd: BS In The NYT: Black Market Trinkets From Space Hey Sonny - could you do me a favor and post this to the meteorite list? I keep trying but it ain't showin' up. Cheers, Marc --- Howdy all I can't exactly label myself esteemed but I'll say a few words... The short version is, I have a lot more respect for Ralph Harvey than I do for the NYT. His quote in that article looks like the sort of thing that gets cherry-picked for effect. Yes, there are meteorites that are bought and sold illegally, and that's bad. There are also a hell of a lot of meteorites in research collections that would be rusting away in a desert somewhere if it weren't for collectors. That's good. I have no doubt that Ralph is fully aware of both sides of the argument, and I highly doubt that he intended to label all meteorite collection everywhere as a flaming travesty against all of humanity, the majority of puppies, and most unicorns everywhere. Here's another recent article that makes a point pertinent to this discussion (before it loses track and goes Fox-bashing), namely that science reporting has taken a sharp decrease in quality lately as the major media outlets have done away with dedicated science writers: http://tinyurl.com/3llqgay Recent stories on life in CI meteorites, natural atomic bomb blasts on Mars, and now this story are symptoms of a bigger problem, namely the lack of well-informed treatment of science issues by the major media outlets. Science stories are increasingly handled by writers who are looking for high-impact, wow-factor news items as opposed to lower-key but better-informed articles by science journalism professionals. I can say from my own experience that it is rather frustrating to attend conferences where I see all manner of well thought-out, interesting research presented, and then to turn around and see little more than sensationalistic crap wind up front and center in the major media. That's not good for anyone - the really interesting stuff never reaches a wider audience, and the public winds up thinking that scientists waste their time and tax dollars on embarrassing nonsense like the examples I stated above. I think that's the effect we're seeing in this NYT article at least in part, and while it is unfortunate it doesn't surprise me much. Cheers, Marc Fries On Apr 4, 2011, at 12:51 PM, m...@mhmeteorites.com wrote: Perhaps one of the many esteemed researchers on this list would be kind enough to write a rebuttal. Matt Matt Morgan Mile High Meteorites http://www.mhmeteorites.com P.O. Box 151293 Lakewood, CO 80215 -Original Message- From: Yinan Wang veom...@gmail.com Sender: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 14:44:02 To: Meteorite-listmeteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BS In The NYT: Black Market Trinkets From Space For those who are inclined to do so, you can certainly write a letter to the editor which may be published in the Opinions page of the NY times as a response: http://www.nytimes.com/content/help/site/editorial/letters/letters.html?ref=letters -YvW On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 2:30 PM, Meteorites USA e...@meteoritesusa.com wrote: This is one of the most sensationalized, biased, uninformed, and skewed article I've ever read on NYT's website regarding meteorites. Mainly the article focuses on the Gebel Kamil iron meteorite, however it paints a grim picture and tries to draw a connection to all meteorites implying that the private market is somehow damaging the science. Black Market Trinkets From Space: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/05/science/05meteorite.html Quote: Popular or not, the meteorites were taboo. In Egypt and elsewhere, scientists say, it is illegal without a permit to remove meteorites from a country. Quote: The scientists say they have relatively few samples compared with the booming illicit sales. Quote: Dr. Harvey of Case
Re: [meteorite-list] Fwd: BS In The NYT: Black Market Trinkets From Space
Once again, for the umpteenth time, I find myself defending meteorite collecting on FB because somebody reposted that stupid NYT link. This is getting old. Can we pool our money, hire an attorney, and sue the NYT collectively for libel? Best regards, MikeG -- Mike Gilmer - Galactic Stone Ironworks Meteorites Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone News Feed - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 Twitter - http://twitter.com/galacticstone EOM - http://www.encyclopedia-of-meteorites.com/collection.aspx?id=1564 --- On 4/6/11, karmaka karm...@email.de wrote: Hello Marc I think you are right in many aspects you mentioned, Marc. This 'sensationalistic crap' does not only show in magazines and newspapers but also in many modern science documentaries on TV. With all the high-speed visual editing the viewer is often left in a state of being somehow 'numb'. You can't speak of a leading 'form follows function' paradigm anymore. The WOW impression is caused by the visual editing rather than by the exciting facts about the (let me quote my favorite German expression these days, coined by Mr. Altmann) EXOTISCHE REALITAET, the 'exotic reality', which is unfortunately to many people more unreal and alien than any fictional world. 'Hollywood-Reality' in science reporting does only distract the readers and viewers from what could really take their breath away: facts from the 'exotic reality' we live in. Cheers, Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: wahlpe...@aol.com Gesendet: 06.04.2011 21:37:06 An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: [meteorite-list] Fwd: BS In The NYT: Black Market Trinkets From Space Hey Sonny - could you do me a favor and post this to the meteorite list? I keep trying but it ain't showin' up. Cheers, Marc --- Howdy all I can't exactly label myself esteemed but I'll say a few words... The short version is, I have a lot more respect for Ralph Harvey than I do for the NYT. His quote in that article looks like the sort of thing that gets cherry-picked for effect. Yes, there are meteorites that are bought and sold illegally, and that's bad. There are also a hell of a lot of meteorites in research collections that would be rusting away in a desert somewhere if it weren't for collectors. That's good. I have no doubt that Ralph is fully aware of both sides of the argument, and I highly doubt that he intended to label all meteorite collection everywhere as a flaming travesty against all of humanity, the majority of puppies, and most unicorns everywhere. Here's another recent article that makes a point pertinent to this discussion (before it loses track and goes Fox-bashing), namely that science reporting has taken a sharp decrease in quality lately as the major media outlets have done away with dedicated science writers: http://tinyurl.com/3llqgay Recent stories on life in CI meteorites, natural atomic bomb blasts on Mars, and now this story are symptoms of a bigger problem, namely the lack of well-informed treatment of science issues by the major media outlets. Science stories are increasingly handled by writers who are looking for high-impact, wow-factor news items as opposed to lower-key but better-informed articles by science journalism professionals. I can say from my own experience that it is rather frustrating to attend conferences where I see all manner of well thought-out, interesting research presented, and then to turn around and see little more than sensationalistic crap wind up front and center in the major media. That's not good for anyone - the really interesting stuff never reaches a wider audience, and the public winds up thinking that scientists waste their time and tax dollars on embarrassing nonsense like the examples I stated above. I think that's the effect we're seeing in this NYT article at least in part, and while it is unfortunate it doesn't surprise me much. Cheers, Marc Fries On Apr 4, 2011, at 12:51 PM, m...@mhmeteorites.com wrote: Perhaps one of the many esteemed researchers on this list would be kind enough to write a rebuttal. Matt Matt Morgan Mile High Meteorites http://www.mhmeteorites.com P.O. Box 151293 Lakewood, CO 80215 -Original Message- From: Yinan Wang veom...@gmail.com Sender: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 14:44:02 To: Meteorite-listmeteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BS In The NYT: Black Market Trinkets From Space For those who are inclined to do so, you can certainly write a letter to the editor which may be published in the Opinions page of the NY times as a response: http://www.nytimes.com/content/help/site/editorial/letters/letters.html?ref=letters -YvW On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at
[meteorite-list] Meteorite Media
A lot of energy has been spent of this list and elsewhere in the past day or two about the sham article... I'd be curious to know how many people actually saw or read the article. Of course that is unknowable. I would imagine that the total number will be vastly less that the numbers watching a highly popular TV program about a pair of meteorite hunters. Since the program is seen by new people all of the time and not only in first runs, but by repeats, marathon sessions where an entire season is run in succession, wouldn't it seem strange to someone uniformed who read that article and then they see these two guys traveling around the world finding and pricing these stones? How can they be so overt in their illegal activities? Obviously the answer is their activities aren't illegal, which we all know. Now that this program is gearing up for Season 3 (Congrats again on this Geoff Steve) it is my hope that they will have the opportunity to teach their viewers a bit more about meteorites. Specifically a minute or two spent on the legality of hunting, selling and collecting meteorites. Of course anything they tape can end up on the cutting room floor never to be aired, but I can think of no better outlet to combat this horribly bad information that has cause such a flare up in the community and on this list. There are also a number of excellent experts on their program. One has to wonder why, if this activity was illegal, why would any of them appear in the programs? The obvious answer is that they appear in the program because it isn't illegal. It would be great to see one or more of the expert meteoriticists on the program explain the great benefits that they, their colleauges have received along with some mind-blowing specimens available for research specifically because of legal meteorite hunting. It certainly wouldn't hurt to mention all of the benefits of the legal meteorite trade. Obviously this a random, unsolicited input on their program and I expect it to be fully ignored, but I've said it before, no matter what your opinion of Geoff, Steve and their program, I doubt anyone can deny that they are currently the most influential and informative popular outlet for information about meteorites in the United States and other countries. I do hope they have and take the opportunity to address this issue on air. Just my 2 Zibabwean cents worth... -- Richard Kowalski Full Moon Photography IMCA #1081 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] New York Times Article
Hi Martin and List, Martin said - Neither the others from the list here could do it, cause they are junkies Nor IMCA can help, because in that former Gebel Kamil article in New Scientist IMCA was umasked as the meteorite trade's dogsbody...I agree with Matt and others. In principle only a rebuttal of an esteemed meteorite scientist would be credible. (Best would be of course by Dr.Harvey himself). Agreed 100%. Someone in the scientific community should make the rebuttal. The IMCA has an obvious conflict of interest in the matter in regards to selling meteorites for profit (especially since some IMCA dealers are selling Gebel Kamil). Most collectors and dealers would also have trouble being viewed as objective by most. As Richard K. just said in another post, this is likely much-ado about not-much. In other words, this is not the end of the world. Another fool saying foolish things about meteorites. Surely this will add to the body of ridiculous misconceptions about meteorites, but no rational person is going to be swayed by pulp fiction like the NYT article. Best regards, MikeG -- Mike Gilmer - Galactic Stone Ironworks Meteorites Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone News Feed - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 Twitter - http://twitter.com/galacticstone EOM - http://www.encyclopedia-of-meteorites.com/collection.aspx?id=1564 --- On 4/6/11, Martin Altmann altm...@meteorite-martin.de wrote: Hi Brian, but do they have the credibility for the common NYT-reader? According the article they are looters, drug lords driven by rampant greed. Neither the others from the list here could do it, cause they are junkies. Nor IMCA can help, because in that former Gebel Kamil article in New Scientist IMCA was umasked as the meteorite trade's dogsbody. I agree with Matt and others. In principle only a rebuttal of an esteemed meteorite scientist would be credible. (Best would be of course by Dr.Harvey himself). Because so far they weren't defamed that much in public. Only by Dr.Bland, expressing his hysteric dilemma to be dependent on the private finds, but helping the proliferation in doing research on them. And the intellectual all-time high of Brother Consolmagno to set his esteemed colleagues on one level with murderers (The Jesuits are the most papal order. And in the doctrine, see e.g. the encyclical Donum Vitae the destruction of embryonic stem cells is equivalent with abortion and murder. Was even once suggested by the papal family council to excommunicate stem cell researchers and women giving ovules for that kind of research too. So he certainly can't tell, that his comparison was an accidental slip) ..is fortunately not so widely known. That Pharisee! He can run in the confessional after each time having worked on such a supposedly illicitly collected meteorite - and the knee bench inside must be very worn meanwhile - on so many he worked! But others? Oops, have to puke again, when I read the quote again Gulp Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Brian Cox Gesendet: Mittwoch, 6. April 2011 17:08 An: Meteorite-list Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] New York Times Article Dirk and list, I think our best Media Face at this time certainly seems to be Geoff and Steve. Steve and Geoff do you think your producers would be able to fit a segment into your next show that deals with this perception of the Meteorite Community or even just a quick spot that states this is a legitimate hobby and that we are hard working honest people that love meteorites or something outstanding that would help to turn what this article had done into a positive view of us. I don't think this can wait much longer and needs to be addressed immediately. It would be a shame for this negative image to be spread out there in the world and that we're more than helpful in this hobby in assisting the scientific community and I think the sooner it's dealt with and squashed the better. My fear is that if we don't do something that bad stories and rumors will fly. If you guys are able to possibly even just add on a 30 second spot at the beginning or end of any of your reruns that it would help you guys and help all of us greatly. We definitely need good publicity and I don't want to put you guys on the spot and I know it's a lot to ask but if you could get your producers and the network to work something in I definitely feel that in the long run it would be great publicity for your show and would make sure you keep the viewers you have and hopefully bring in new viewers. All the best to everyone. Brian
[meteorite-list] Many Newly Discovered NEOs with Close approach 6APR-15APR2011
Dear List, Hope that everyone will get to see some meteors from debris leading or following these NEOs close approaches. Catalina and others have just found several new ones. http://lunarmeteoritehunters.blogspot.com/2011/04/elevated-detected-neos-close-approach.html Dirk Ross...Tokyo __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Media
Hi Richard, the main problem with such articles isn't how many, but who is reading them. They carry the brand names: NYT and BBC. Any journalist, if he has to deliver a piece about meteorites and is doing his web-research will come across these articles first - plus about that SchmittBarristers paper, with the veneer of a scientific article, but nevertheless giving wrong legal information about the UNESCO convention, as well as about Switzerland, as well as about New Zealand (and the rest I didn't check, because if of 12 central topics already 3 are wrong - and if you take e.g. the there mentioned law of New Zealand - and it hasn't change since - and where it takes 10 minutes to see, that Schmitt Barristers evidently haven't read the law at all - then it's not worth to check the rest as the paper doesn't fulfill the requirements of a scientific article). Of course - and it's not his fault - he will rely in the probity of these articles, noone would expect, that such renown media would publish such a unproved bullshit. Hence we will have in future a series of articles singing from the same hymn sheet. One saw it with the BBC-Smith article in combination with another crude BBC-article telling fantastic fairytales about meteorites laying between chickens and vegetables on the farmer's markets in the towns of Mauretania. These articles are transported even down into the blogs and fora in Africa. They are the reason, why we all have to bear to be called criminals, looters, drug dealers... But much worse, in the end articles like these are the reason, for laws being created. In the end these articles are responsible for less meteorites being found, sold, ending in the hand of science. And you can tell me what you want, I have the impression, that this devastating effect is welcomed by several of these people interviewed, who afterwards claim to have been misunderstood. Note how fast that kind of people is always screaming in the media: Scandal!! Crime!! Harm And how few scientist instead applaud or demonstrate respect for the great and valuable performance of the private sector. Thereabout you hear always almost nothing. Skol Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Richard Kowalski Gesendet: Mittwoch, 6. April 2011 23:10 An: meteorite list Betreff: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Media A lot of energy has been spent of this list and elsewhere in the past day or two about the sham article... I'd be curious to know how many people actually saw or read the article. Of course that is unknowable. I would imagine that the total number will be vastly less that the numbers watching a highly popular TV program about a pair of meteorite hunters. Since the program is seen by new people all of the time and not only in first runs, but by repeats, marathon sessions where an entire season is run in succession, wouldn't it seem strange to someone uniformed who read that article and then they see these two guys traveling around the world finding and pricing these stones? How can they be so overt in their illegal activities? Obviously the answer is their activities aren't illegal, which we all know. Now that this program is gearing up for Season 3 (Congrats again on this Geoff Steve) it is my hope that they will have the opportunity to teach their viewers a bit more about meteorites. Specifically a minute or two spent on the legality of hunting, selling and collecting meteorites. Of course anything they tape can end up on the cutting room floor never to be aired, but I can think of no better outlet to combat this horribly bad information that has cause such a flare up in the community and on this list. There are also a number of excellent experts on their program. One has to wonder why, if this activity was illegal, why would any of them appear in the programs? The obvious answer is that they appear in the program because it isn't illegal. It would be great to see one or more of the expert meteoriticists on the program explain the great benefits that they, their colleauges have received along with some mind-blowing specimens available for research specifically because of legal meteorite hunting. It certainly wouldn't hurt to mention all of the benefits of the legal meteorite trade. Obviously this a random, unsolicited input on their program and I expect it to be fully ignored, but I've said it before, no matter what your opinion of Geoff, Steve and their program, I doubt anyone can deny that they are currently the most influential and informative popular outlet for information about meteorites in the United States and other countries. I do hope they have and take the opportunity to address this issue on air. Just my 2 Zibabwean cents worth... -- Richard Kowalski Full Moon Photography IMCA #1081 __ Visit the Archives at
[meteorite-list] NYT Story
Hi list, As a former paying subscriber to the New York Times electronic edition I sometimes receive emails from them asking me to re-subscribe. Coincidentally I received an email from the NYT today offering me a discount if I subscribe again. Deep in the sales talk I found their customer service address: Customer Care, c/o The New York Times, P.O. Box 217, Northvale, NJ 07647-0217 I plan to write to the good folks in Customer Care and will explain to them why I will not subscribe now or ever to what used to be known as the paper of record. How times change. Vote with your wallet and let them know! Best regards, Charley Butterfield IMCA 6123 Well, squids don't work. Hey! Let's try elephants ! Hannibal __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Many Newly Discovered NEOs with Close approach 6APR-15APR2011
Hey Dirk, since there is a small amount of discussion about sensationalism in the media in relation to meteorites, I hope you don't mind too much about your latest post. First thanks for your kind words about CSS. I direct people to your website and look at the two columns listed as Miss Distance. One is AU for Astronomical Unit, and the other LD for Lunar Distance. The distances in human measurements are in the legend. The important thing to note here are objects that pass closer than 1 LD. Note that this is a sphere around the earth, not just along the moon's orbital plane. On your chart there are only 2 that fit this bill. It is highly unlikely that there will be any noticeable effect in the number of fireballs due to these close approaches. The ones more distant than the moon most assuredly will have zero effect. It may be surprising to learn that we at CSS discover a number of small close approachers every lunation. It happens so often now that it no longer makes the news. It may be even more surprising to learn that it is estimated that about 1000 natural objects pass by the earth closer than the moon each and every month! There are many reasons why we don't discover this many each month, but it isn't due to a lack of trying. More than half the sky is unobserveable because of the Sun. Another half of the sky is unobserveable from any one site because the earth is in the way. Another big reason for the limited number of discoveries is because these objects are so faint that they can't even be detected except for the last few days before the encounter. If we happen to point the telescope at the part of the sky one occupies the day before it becomes bright enough to observe, or even just an hour before, we just can't detect it. Luckily these small rocks will do little more than make the wonderful light shows and sometimes even drop meteorites to the surface. The point of my post is to suggest that is impossible to say if any one fireball was due to it being a companion of a known close approacher or if it just happens to be one of the other approximately 1000 objects that occupy the region around the earth closer than the moon each and every month. As a concrete example I'll cite a rock I picked up right at the beginning of February, 2011 CQ1. This rock passed only 5480km (3400 miles above the surface of the Pacific Ocean making it the closest approach of any known asteroid ever. I'm unaware of any increase in meteors spotted around the time of closest approach much less any fireballs. Yes, CQ1 is much smaller than the ones you cite, but it also came much, much closer too. Hope this helps. -- Richard Kowalski Catalina Sky Survey Lunar and Planetary Laboratory University of Arizona http://www.lpl.arizona.edu/css/ --- On Wed, 4/6/11, drtanuki drtan...@yahoo.com wrote: From: drtanuki drtan...@yahoo.com Subject: [meteorite-list] Many Newly Discovered NEOs with Close approach 6APR-15APR2011 To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com, Global Meteor Observing Forum meteor...@meteorobs.org Date: Wednesday, April 6, 2011, 2:39 PM Dear List, Hope that everyone will get to see some meteors from debris leading or following these NEOs close approaches. Catalina and others have just found several new ones. http://lunarmeteoritehunters.blogspot.com/2011/04/elevated-detected-neos-close-approach.html Dirk Ross...Tokyo __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Media
A lot of energy has been spent of this list and elsewhere in the past day or two about the sham article... I'd be curious to know how many people actually saw or read the article. Of course that is unknowable. I would imagine that the total number will be vastly less that the numbers watching a highly popular TV program about a pair of meteorite hunters. I am inclined to support Richard´s view here. Who cares for the NYT views in the end, who cares for that bad article? Those who know by their own good personal experience how things are in the meteorite world will be able to put it in the right perspective for themselves, most of those who don´t know will have read it, and I bet many if not most of them have forgotten it in the same second, especially those readers that are susceptible to sensational journalism only, who may be the main targets for those kind of newspapers these days, even the NYT as it seems... Can´t we come down to an even-tempered, unhurried, calm and serene look at the whole thing? I suspect the people who promote the new laws and restrictions won´t do it just by virtue of this little bad NYT article, they do it for other reasons, may be even for personal reasons. You can count them, they are surely not the majority. And if they do it, they don´t need the NYT or the BBC, or the impact factor via research of those examples of bad journalism for their bad reasoning. At best it only has a positive side-effect for them. But I believe the big body of all those casual readers or subscribers who are not informed won´t care at all or very little, and the others have a brain to use it in a good sense. Well, at least I hope so! :-) We have to look for different means to protest. Well, just a thought in all this mess... Alex Berlin/Germany __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NYT Story
Two things, first I put a rebuttal link on my web page so anybody who uses the link in the article to go to my web page will find a link to comments posted on the metlist by Dr Agee, Mike Farmer, and Martin Altmann. All comments used with permission. Second Adam Hupe wrote I have a hard time believing that any form of media would liable themselves by putting quotes around something that was completely made up. What I said to the reporter was something like I purchased the Gebel Kamil from other people in the US I would not have said “I bought them second- and thirdhand.” as quoted. Essentially the same thing, but not my words despite the quote marks. -- Eric Olson 610 W. Moore Rd Tucson AZ 85755 http://www.star-bits.com __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NYT Story
Two things, first I put a rebuttal link on my web page so anybody who uses the link in the article to go to my web page will find a link to comments posted on the metlist by Dr Agee, Mike Farmer, and Martin Altmann. Well done, Eric, as many readers of the NYT article with a computer at hands will now likely look at your website. They will read personal comments from highly respected people who speak for themselves on the issue, and this is potentially a much better observation than any third-party-summary... Alex Berlin/Germany __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] New York Times Article
Hello everyone Unfortunately, the NYTimes like most of the journalistic institutions worldwide, is increasingly copying the internet media in sensationalism... I have been a long time reader of the online version, usually there is a place at the bottom of an article for comments. Here there is none. But I have seen corrections (or additions) made afterwards. At least with the online version this is possible, that was not the case with the only paper version. I am quite sure that with all the mails sent to the NYTimes, something will come out of it. Clear skies Michael B. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] New York Times Article
Hi Listoids... The NYT get's way too much credibility. Responding to their tactics merely feeds their fire. I think they did it to bait the whole concept of private property meteorite ownership, having found a 'non-political' way to demagogue entrepeneurism (my opinion, of course.) This is mis-information media vs. one of the most pristine entities of all time. It's almost as if they are squealing-giddy because they think they've discovered an Achillies heel in a relatively unknown synergistic phenomenon, (excuse my spelling)...and feel that perhaps a wedge can be driven between academics and private enterprise. Obviously, they don't know crap about it, or in the least with whom they are dealing. My point, is, not to over-react to a non-credible source. When an idiot wants to make a fool of himself, often it's best to stand back and watch. The NYT is losing readership and credibility every time they try to be relevent. -Richard Montgomery Original Message - From: Brian Cox searchingfor...@sbcglobal.net To: Meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2011 8:07 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] New York Times Article Dirk and list, I think our best Media Face at this time certainly seems to be Geoff and Steve. Steve and Geoff do you think your producers would be able to fit a segment into your next show that deals with this perception of the Meteorite Community or even just a quick spot that states this is a legitimate hobby and that we are hard working honest people that love meteorites or something outstanding that would help to turn what this article had done into a positive view of us. I don't think this can wait much longer and needs to be addressed immediately. It would be a shame for this negative image to be spread out there in the world and that we're more than helpful in this hobby in assisting the scientific community and I think the sooner it's dealt with and squashed the better. My fear is that if we don't do something that bad stories and rumors will fly. If you guys are able to possibly even just add on a 30 second spot at the beginning or end of any of your reruns that it would help you guys and help all of us greatly. We definitely need good publicity and I don't want to put you guys on the spot and I know it's a lot to ask but if you could get your producers and the network to work something in I definitely feel that in the long run it would be great publicity for your show and would make sure you keep the viewers you have and hopefully bring in new viewers. All the best to everyone. Brian __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Tenn Meteor 6APR2011
Dear List, http://lunarmeteoritehunters.blogspot.com/2011/04/dyersburg-tennessee-meteor-6apr2011.html Yet another. Dirk Ross..Tokyo __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NYT Story
It seems some disagree with this statement I made earlier. I have a hard time believing that any form of media would liable themselves by putting quotes around something that was completely made up. I am not defending the NYT and think the article is poor. It used to be when quote marks were printed that this was the exact statement made. Why would the NYT even use quote marks if what they print is inaccurate? I can see them taking these responses out of context but changing what somebody said and placing quote marks around it is nothing short of liable. If this reporter knows nothing about meteorites and was a blank slat start with, then somebody had to put these thoughts into his head. It looks to me that Dr. Harvey might have set the tone for this article. Perhaps, he was quoted out of context but if so, it his responsibility to clarify it since he granted them the interview. If you want to be in the limelight, then you have to take responsibility for any negative fallout. After all, he was acting as a spokesperson for the rest of us by granting this public interview. Everybody else quoted in this article has stepped up to the plate, took responsibility for what was said and explained what they meant to say. I applaud this action and believe most mentioned in this article were completely caught off guard. I do not cherish the thought of somebody else speaking on my behalf publicly, especially when they were not elected to do so. What is printed or plastered on TV affects all of us. Remember this when an interview with the media seems to be getting out of hand. You can always stop the interview and move on. Most media outlets thrive on negative entertainment and it works. One just has to look at the negative political campaigns to see this. If it did not work, then politicians would not use this tactic. It takes ten positive articles to offset one negative one. This ratings over responsibility attitude can be devastating. Just ask any former treasure hunter. Best Regards, Adam __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] List of meteorites from Vesta?
Hi all, Is there a list of assumed Vesta meteorites? Regine __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] List of meteorites from Vesta?
Hi Regine, All HEDOD meteorites are assumed to be Vestan in origin - Howardite, Eucrite, Diogenite, Olivine diogenite, and Dunite. :) Best regards, MikeG -- Mike Gilmer - Galactic Stone Ironworks Meteorites Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone News Feed - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 Twitter - http://twitter.com/galacticstone EOM - http://www.encyclopedia-of-meteorites.com/collection.aspx?id=1564 --- On 4/6/11, Regine Petersen fips_br...@yahoo.de wrote: Hi all, Is there a list of assumed Vesta meteorites? Regine __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list -- -- Mike Gilmer - Galactic Stone Ironworks Meteorites Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone News Feed - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 Twitter - http://twitter.com/galacticstone EOM - http://www.encyclopedia-of-meteorites.com/collection.aspx?id=1564 --- __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] List of meteorites from Vesta?
Thanks Mike. I was wondering if there was a site listing all the resp. meteorites by name. But I guess I can look up the types on MetBull and compile a list. Thanks, R. --- Michael Gilmer meteoritem...@gmail.com schrieb am Do, 7.4.2011: Von: Michael Gilmer meteoritem...@gmail.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] List of meteorites from Vesta? An: Regine Petersen fips_br...@yahoo.de CC: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Datum: Donnerstag, 7. April, 2011 04:58 Uhr Hi Regine, All HEDOD meteorites are assumed to be Vestan in origin - Howardite, Eucrite, Diogenite, Olivine diogenite, and Dunite. :) Best regards, MikeG -- Mike Gilmer - Galactic Stone Ironworks Meteorites Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone News Feed - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 Twitter - http://twitter.com/galacticstone EOM - http://www.encyclopedia-of-meteorites.com/collection.aspx?id=1564 --- On 4/6/11, Regine Petersen fips_br...@yahoo.de wrote: Hi all, Is there a list of assumed Vesta meteorites? Regine __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list -- -- Mike Gilmer - Galactic Stone Ironworks Meteorites Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone News Feed - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 Twitter - http://twitter.com/galacticstone EOM - http://www.encyclopedia-of-meteorites.com/collection.aspx?id=1564 --- __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NYT Story
Hi Why would the NYT even use quote marks if what they print is inaccurate? I can see them taking these responses out of context but changing what somebody said and placing quote marks around it is nothing short of liable. While I agree with some of what you've written, the aforementioned is factually inaccurate. What you're referring to has nothing in and of itself to do with libel. Zilch. For those who are interested, The New York Times Manual of Style will explain all stylistic choices employed by the paper While the writer of the piece obviously did a hack job, it should be noted he won the Pulitzer Prize, twice, and is considered by many to a dean of science writers. Overseas list members, if you have the opportunity, please peruse the International Herald Tribune to see if they picked up the story and run it in its entirety. Thanks and all the best / d, On Apr 6, 2011, at 10:30 PM, Adam Hupe wrote: It seems some disagree with this statement I made earlier. I have a hard time believing that any form of media would liable themselves by putting quotes around something that was completely made up. I am not defending the NYT and think the article is poor. It used to be when quote marks were printed that this was the exact statement made. Why would the NYT even use quote marks if what they print is inaccurate? I can see them taking these responses out of context but changing what somebody said and placing quote marks around it is nothing short of liable. If this reporter knows nothing about meteorites and was a blank slat start with, then somebody had to put these thoughts into his head. It looks to me that Dr. Harvey might have set the tone for this article. Perhaps, he was quoted out of context but if so, it his responsibility to clarify it since he granted them the interview. If you want to be in the limelight, then you have to take responsibility for any negative fallout. After all, he was acting as a spokesperson for the rest of us by granting this public interview. Everybody else quoted in this article has stepped up to the plate, took responsibility for what was said and explained what they meant to say. I applaud this action and believe most mentioned in this article were completely caught off guard. I do not cherish the thought of somebody else speaking on my behalf publicly, especially when they were not elected to do so. What is printed or plastered on TV affects all of us. Remember this when an interview with the media seems to be getting out of hand. You can always stop the interview and move on. Most media outlets thrive on negative entertainment and it works. One just has to look at the negative political campaigns to see this. If it did not work, then politicians would not use this tactic. It takes ten positive articles to offset one negative one. This ratings over responsibility attitude can be devastating. Just ask any former treasure hunter. Best Regards, Adam __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NYT Story
If someone can win a Pulitzer Prize for work like that, then I should be presented with some kind of prize as well... because I just $#@T the Mona Lisa about 15 minutes ago. Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -Original Message- From: Darryl Pitt dar...@dof3.com Sender: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2011 00:03:23 To: Adam Huperaremeteori...@yahoo.com Cc: Adammeteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NYT Story Hi Why would the NYT even use quote marks if what they print is inaccurate? I can see them taking these responses out of context but changing what somebody said and placing quote marks around it is nothing short of liable. While I agree with some of what you've written, the aforementioned is factually inaccurate. What you're referring to has nothing in and of itself to do with libel. Zilch. For those who are interested, The New York Times Manual of Style will explain all stylistic choices employed by the paper While the writer of the piece obviously did a hack job, it should be noted he won the Pulitzer Prize, twice, and is considered by many to a dean of science writers. Overseas list members, if you have the opportunity, please peruse the International Herald Tribune to see if they picked up the story and run it in its entirety. Thanks and all the best / d, On Apr 6, 2011, at 10:30 PM, Adam Hupe wrote: It seems some disagree with this statement I made earlier. I have a hard time believing that any form of media would liable themselves by putting quotes around something that was completely made up. I am not defending the NYT and think the article is poor. It used to be when quote marks were printed that this was the exact statement made. Why would the NYT even use quote marks if what they print is inaccurate? I can see them taking these responses out of context but changing what somebody said and placing quote marks around it is nothing short of liable. If this reporter knows nothing about meteorites and was a blank slat start with, then somebody had to put these thoughts into his head. It looks to me that Dr. Harvey might have set the tone for this article. Perhaps, he was quoted out of context but if so, it his responsibility to clarify it since he granted them the interview. If you want to be in the limelight, then you have to take responsibility for any negative fallout. After all, he was acting as a spokesperson for the rest of us by granting this public interview. Everybody else quoted in this article has stepped up to the plate, took responsibility for what was said and explained what they meant to say. I applaud this action and believe most mentioned in this article were completely caught off guard. I do not cherish the thought of somebody else speaking on my behalf publicly, especially when they were not elected to do so. What is printed or plastered on TV affects all of us. Remember this when an interview with the media seems to be getting out of hand. You can always stop the interview and move on. Most media outlets thrive on negative entertainment and it works. One just has to look at the negative political campaigns to see this. If it did not work, then politicians would not use this tactic. It takes ten positive articles to offset one negative one. This ratings over responsibility attitude can be devastating. Just ask any former treasure hunter. Best Regards, Adam __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NYT Story
There is a dry and to the point Wikipedia article about Mr. Broad, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Broad. He has covered many technical and scientific events in his career, including continuing coverage of the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant event going on in Japan; the meteorite story wasn't among his finest, and it certainly isn't be his worst. I'd really like to hear a response from him on the list, but that's probably unlikely. /rh -- From: Darryl Pitt dar...@dof3.com Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2011 9:03 PM To: Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com Cc: Adam meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NYT Story Hi Why would the NYT even use quote marks if what they print is inaccurate? I can see them taking these responses out of context but changing what somebody said and placing quote marks around it is nothing short of liable. While I agree with some of what you've written, the aforementioned is factually inaccurate. What you're referring to has nothing in and of itself to do with libel. Zilch. For those who are interested, The New York Times Manual of Style will explain all stylistic choices employed by the paper While the writer of the piece obviously did a hack job, it should be noted he won the Pulitzer Prize, twice, and is considered by many to a dean of science writers. Overseas list members, if you have the opportunity, please peruse the International Herald Tribune to see if they picked up the story and run it in its entirety. Thanks and all the best / d, On Apr 6, 2011, at 10:30 PM, Adam Hupe wrote: It seems some disagree with this statement I made earlier. I have a hard time believing that any form of media would liable themselves by putting quotes around something that was completely made up. I am not defending the NYT and think the article is poor. It used to be when quote marks were printed that this was the exact statement made. Why would the NYT even use quote marks if what they print is inaccurate? I can see them taking these responses out of context but changing what somebody said and placing quote marks around it is nothing short of liable. If this reporter knows nothing about meteorites and was a blank slat start with, then somebody had to put these thoughts into his head. It looks to me that Dr. Harvey might have set the tone for this article. Perhaps, he was quoted out of context but if so, it his responsibility to clarify it since he granted them the interview. If you want to be in the limelight, then you have to take responsibility for any negative fallout. After all, he was acting as a spokesperson for the rest of us by granting this public interview. Everybody else quoted in this article has stepped up to the plate, took responsibility for what was said and explained what they meant to say. I applaud this action and believe most mentioned in this article were completely caught off guard. I do not cherish the thought of somebody else speaking on my behalf publicly, especially when they were not elected to do so. What is printed or plastered on TV affects all of us. Remember this when an interview with the media seems to be getting out of hand. You can always stop the interview and move on. Most media outlets thrive on negative entertainment and it works. One just has to look at the negative political campaigns to see this. If it did not work, then politicians would not use this tactic. It takes ten positive articles to offset one negative one. This ratings over responsibility attitude can be devastating. Just ask any former treasure hunter. Best Regards, Adam __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
