AW: [meteorite-list] An open message to all list members
Hi Mike, I have to say, that IMCA is meanwhile - and remember, that this club, isn't that old yet, a true improvement especially for European sellers offering more frequently their stuff on US-ebay. The European collectorship using their national ebays is to small (and grosso modo uninformed about meteorite pricing), so that European collectors and ebay-dealers have often no choice to offer in USA. And here we had in past the problem, that the bidders there often were a little bit shy in buying from European offerers, I guess, because they weren't sure, what to do if complications would appear and so the European stuff got on average (in same quality, with same shipping costs) results, which were 30-40% lower than those of the US-sellers. With the IMCA-label now, it isn't the case anymore, neither for newer collectors and sellers. Hence, from this empirical view, I conclude, that the IMCA-label is broadly accepted now by the collectorship as a cachet for authenticity and for a certain standard of business. Thus, if you remember, what for a hard work and a rat race it was, to merit a good standings and reputation, when one wants to be a meteorite dealer - the IMCA-seal makes things a lot easier. And if I hear sometimes complaints about the enormous annual fees of 20 bucks, I have to grin - 2 or 3 ebay-auctions and the fees are amortized. I'm not a mineral or fossil dealer, but I could imagine, that the member fees for the national and international organisations (and here the meteorite world has the advantage, that the community is so small, that only a single association can cover it) are higher. For the collectors, especially for the new collectors, the advantage of IMCA is indisputable. I see it from my daily work - in past I was often asked: Do you know this seller, can I trust him... Since there is IMCA the number of those questions declined remarkably and I'm asked only in cases of non-IMCA-sellers. (Some not specialized resellers even propagate their stuff now, to be obtained from IMCA-dealers). So I have no problem, especially concerning ebay-sales, to make propaganda for IMCA, where I can. I have enough clients, who bought from there fakes and totally misrepresented stones. Take a look - all those Nantan fakes; those old weathered fragments, which should be oriented and with fusion crust, the museum quality rust buckets, the Moon fakes..ect. So I tell the beginners always, buy from IMCA-members, they aren't more expensive, but you can be sure to get the right stuff and/or assistance, if problems appear or ask at least a person, you trust in, if you're not sure, whenever you find something interesting at non-IMCA-dealers. Of course there are some important dealers, who aren't members, either because they have worked out a sufficient large regular customership or are living legends or simply are to saturated or meteorites aren't their main scope, who aren't members of IMCA and from those the collectors can and should buy too, but that doesn't take much away from the improvements the IMCA achieved in so relatively short time. From IMCA collectors and dealers benefit likewise, even you as a non-member, because the credibility in that branch in general is improved by IMCA. Buckleboo! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im Auftrag von Michael Farmer Gesendet: Montag, 28. August 2006 04:35 An: stan .; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] An open message to all list members I am not a member, Bob Haag is not a member, and many of the dealers in Europe are not members. The IMCA is a good idea, but not for me, too many unresolved issues for me to join. Mike Farmer __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] An open message to all list members
Used car dealers, politicians, and snake oil salesmen and the imca for the most part have to be regulated by an informed consuming public, and we cannot legislate society no how much (I) we would like to. Bill -- Original message -- From: Dave Freeman mjwy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dear Stan; Your response is well taken. Maybe at this point, the issue of petty crooks ISN'T as important as we think and a rotten apple or two in the cellar is not enough to get the pastry chefs to want to clean out the stinky mess. It is also quite true in this market place that money talks (and we know what walks), and funny how your named individuals that are not members are probably the first in the supply chain to take his money in exchange for meteorites. Maybe the answer is a robust meteorite sales market where sellers can pick and choose to whom they sell to. At that point maybe he could be pushed away for a better character of individuals. Maybe the cow did jump over the moon. It may boil down to the old adage of let the buyer beware. Used car dealers, politicians, and snake oil salesmen for the most part have to be regulated by an informed consuming public, and we cannot legislate society no how much (I) we would like to. Ssteve's issues have been a delightful topic for a number of years and I predict this issue will cycle in and out quarterly for the next decade. I do agree with Dave C. and note that if every new collector that comes to us for education understands that some sellers tend to forget, accidentally omit, didn't mean to imply sorry for trhe poor quality photos, my wife made me do it, just one trade, will never trade this new piece away, it really did come from a famous dealer, it is the only one leftfrequently in their auctions that the new collector would be wiser to spend their money with more reputable sellers (even if they are BIG enough not to need the IMCA seal on their auctions). Sometimes there are no answers. Dave F. stan . wrote: That being said, is Ssteve an IMCA member, and why would anyone buy from anyone who is not a member? checking the membership list quick i see that Bob Haag, Mike Farmer, Blaine Reed, Adam Hupe, Al Lang, all of the morrocain sources I know, as well as several major collectors ARENT members - to name just a few. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] An open message to all list members
The same, is not the first time Arnold send similar messages to others, I have some in my old emailsand I continue to ask whay one person spam with tons of same messages the list continue to write here Matteo --- stan . [EMAIL PROTECTED] ha scritto: That being said, is Ssteve an IMCA member, and why would anyone buy from anyone who is not a member? checking the membership list quick i see that Bob Haag, Mike Farmer, Blaine Reed, Adam Hupe, Al Lang, all of the morrocain sources I know, as well as several major collectors ARENT members - to name just a few. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list M come Meteorite - Matteo Chinellato Via Triestina 126/A - 30030 - TESSERA, VENEZIA, ITALY Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sale Site: http://www.mcomemeteorite.it Collection Site: http://www.mcomemeteorite.info MSN Messanger: spacerocks at hotmail.com EBAY.COM:http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/mcomemeteorite/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Poco spazio e tanto spam? Yahoo! Mail ti protegge dallo spam e ti da tanto spazio gratuito per i tuoi file e i messaggi http://mail.yahoo.it __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] An open message to all list members
Sorry, It's very good practice to correct an improper ad. It doesn't matter if the info is intentionally misleading or the result of incompetence. Newbies like me need the help of well informed members to save us dollars and grief. Bill -- Original message -- From: Paul Barford [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dave Carothers warns: WE as a community have REAL problems. Dressing mud-slinging up in self-righteous verbiage about doing it for the good of the community is just a smokescreen. I think it is arrogant to think there is only one person here who can check or comprehend what they read in an advert on eBay. It seems to me that, despite denials, somebody here bears a grudge and are expressing it in a most unpleasantly smug manner which hardly inspires confidence in their motivation, character or judgement. My feeling is that issues like this would be best restricted to off-list correspondence. And whether or not Mr Arnold subsequently wishes to change the text of his advert is surely up to him, he alone is responsible for his own words. And anyway, caveat emptor. Private emails have again been posted on the list (which I believe is against the rules). In any case the ebay ad does not read as Carothers reported. See http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=290023409215 Carothers continues: I see Steve (Chicago) Arnold as a direct threat to this great hobby Hmm, rather an exaggeration isnt it? I rather think this constant bitching and back-biting we find all too much of on this list is a greater direct threat to the hobby. The repetetivity of this kind of exhibition will merely make a laughing stock of the whole milieu. I've going to be your own personal Ralph Nader. Every time you post a misleading/untruthful/fraudulent ad, I'm going to expose it... publicly. [...] someone needs to expose you for what you are. It might be a novel idea to suggest, but perhaps we could use the list to talk about meteorites and not persue private vendettas against other list members? Please? You are really helping nobody here. Im hoping the publicity and peer pressure will convince Steve (Chicago) Arnold develop a different set of morals. Though yet another ungrammatical sentence, that sounds awfully self-righteous. I know nothing of Mr Arnold's morals, nor would I presume to judge them from an eBay ad. Mr Carothers, in future, please leave me off the list of addressees of such open letters, I really dont want to receive any more such spam with filled with pettiness and 'holier than thou' smugness. And I would not be surprised to find that I am the only list member who feels like this. Thank you. Paul Barford __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] An open message to all list members
Concerning the inflammatory open letter to all list members which we all recently received via meteorite-list, Dave Carothers writes: You're entitled to your opinion, as am I. But in joining this list, I was interested in opinions on meteorites and not personal attacks on another list member. I dont know how many people on the list find reading any of this sort of stuff edifying or even entertaining. I suspect some (including those newbies you all seem so concerned about) will find it rather off-putting, irritating and intimidating. Dave continues: As to your comment: In any case the ebay ad does not read as Carothers reported. You are incorrect. Steve made the alteration to his ad AFTER I informed him of the misrepresentation. well, no actually I am correct (now YOU are the one doing the misrepresentation, see how easy it is?). I used the present simple tense. At the time I checked to see what all the fuss was about, the ad already read as you would have wished. I dont know (nor care) at what stage it was changed, it may well have been immediately after Mr Arnold learnt that you were unhappy about his phrasing and while you were writing your vicious open letter. The point I was making was that you were using the list in a private vendetta over a matter which when the message came from the List was no longer an issue. It was your open letter which was misrepresentation, since it assumed from the outset than no change would be made as a result of your intervention –your assumption was obviously wrong. Any time any of us spent checking the facts behind your ranting was wasted. Perhaps you would have done better (and us a favour) to wait a while to see if the ad was changed before trumpeting about somebody else's set of morals and other such self-righteous nonsense. While on the topic of morals though, you did not answer the point about reposting to the whole list the contents of private emails in order to be inflammatory. No doubt you will claim that in this too you were acting for the greater good of the meteorite collecting community... Yeah, right. In my opinion, you owe us (not to mention Steve Arnold) an apology. Bill (joseph_town) writes: It's very good practice to correct an improper ad. Absolutely. But what is disturbing was the form in which the information was imparted. What we all received in two messages in the space of a few hours unequivocally had the form of a personal attack. If the intention of the author of the open letter had been to inform rather than attack, what would have been wrong with a simple and courteous message containing the information? For example: This ad http://xxx for a fragment of the Warrenton, Missouri meteorite says that there has never been any for sale, but in fact there are a number of documented instances where specimens have been made available for sale or auction, for example x, and . Perhaps the vendor would consider changing this unfortunate phrasing as it may mislead new collectors. In any case, once the vendor had been made aware that the ad was badly phrased, as we have seen, he did indeed change it, as is only proper. Bill, why do you call the ad improper? You say you are a newbie, in this case are you not making an assumption here based on the inflammatory wording of this damaging open letter, in which case do you always rush to judgement so quickly? As I said, there is no reason why Mr Carothers could not have first made his point off-list and waited to see what happened, rather than straight away firing off a public personal attack and causing a lot of unpleasantness and wasting our time when it turns out that in fact within a short time, the ad had already been changed. Dave Freeman continued the ill-mannered onslaught with name-calling in a manner which further depreciates the tone of this list. What is wrong with meteorite collectors? Whence all this pent-up aggression? Paul Barford (With apologies if this comes a second time, the first one sent a few hours ago seems to have gone astray in the Web-ether) __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] An open message to all list members
To all list members, I’m sure most of you have seen my emails relating to the misrepresentations and falsehoods perpetrated by Steve (Chicago) Arnold in his ads and posts. First of all, let me apologize to the list membership for making these emails public and in effect, loading up your mailboxes. I believe there is good reason, however, for making these emails public. It is for that reason I felt I should explain some of the background issues and provide my rationale below. Everyone on this list has invested a lot of time, effort, and most importantly, money in their respective meteorite collections. I personally take great umbrage at anyone who would jeopardize my collection, either directly or indirectly, by casting ANY doubt on ANY facet or aspect of collecting meteorites. The process of buying and selling meteorites and the specimens themselves ALL have to be genuine and above reproach at ALL times We also have a number of list members who make their living by selling meteorites. I won’t even begin to speak for them, but I’ve seen several of these folks get down and dirty at any potential threat to their livelihood…. and rightfully so. My issue with Steve (Chicago) Arnold is that he just doesn’t care what he puts in his ads. In July, when I first caught his ads containing misrepresentations and falsehoods, he told me: “WHAT IS IT TO YOU?? MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS.” I ask you all…. What kind of reply is that? What does that tell you about Steve (Chicago) Arnold’s integrity and morals? Today, I noticed a misrepresentation on one of his eBay sales and mentioned it on the list (as I previously promised I would --- see below). Again, I received these rather disturbing comments from Steve. “I REALLY WISH YOU WOULD STOP HARRASING ME ABOUT THIS PETTY BULL.” [replaced with * so as to not offend] “I AM TIRED OF PEOPLE CONTINOUSLY HARRISING ME FOR NO REASON.” “IT IS NOT YOUR PURPOSE IN LIFE TO POLICE ME OR EBAY,OR ANYONE ELSE IN THIS WORLD EXCEPT YOURSELF.ENOUGH OF THIS BULL.” [replaced with * so as to not offend] I’m sorry, but if anyone thinks that perpetrating misrepresentations and falsehoods when selling meteorites is “PETTY BULL” or that calling it to his attention is “HARRISING ME FOR NO REASON” then WE as a community have REAL problems. This poor pathetic act of his is a scam. I invite all list members to go back to the archives and look at Steve’s MO. If anyone catches him doing something he shouldn’t, he immediate screams that he is being harassed. OK, so why am I getting involved in this? I see Steve (Chicago) Arnold as a direct threat to this great hobby (and in some cases, livelihood) of ours and also more specifically to the time, effort, and money I’ve invested in my collection. As I told Steve several weeks ago: “You're a dangerous person, Steve. You're a danger to any and ALL legitimate dealers, sellers, and collectors of meteorites. You're like the auto industry back 40-50 years ago. They used to misrepresent and make false claims about the safety of their vehicles and then, along came a man named Nader. I gave you fair warning in two previous emails that I was 1) going to make it my business MAKING SURE UNSUSPECTING POTENTIAL BUYERS ARE AWARE OF YOUR LIES and 2) any recurrence will again be brought out in a public forum. You now have my undivided attention. I've going to be your own personal Ralph Nader. Every time you post a misleading/untruthful/fraudulent ad, I'm going to expose it... publicly. You're a loose canon on deck and someone needs to expose you for what you are.” I told Steve today, that he could stop my posts if he would just stop the misrepresentations and falsehoods. Some of you might be thinking that I’m just picking on Steve. Well, in all honesty, I’ve gone after several other sellers on eBay who have done the same thing (and I'll continue to do so). The responses I got back from them was typically something like… Oh, I’m sorry. I made a mistake and will correct it immediately. Watching these individuals over time and you don’t see a recurrence. In other words, it was a one-time, honest mistake. Steve (Chicago) Arnold has my undivided attention because he does this repeatedly and responds with comments like “WHAT IS IT TO YOU?? MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS.” Again, I apologize to all list members for these emails. I’m hoping the publicity and peer pressure will convince Steve (Chicago) Arnold develop a different set of morals. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] An open message to all list members
Dave Carothers warns: WE as a community have REAL problems. Dressing mud-slinging up in self-righteous verbiage about doing it for the good of the community is just a smokescreen. I think it is arrogant to think there is only one person here who can check or comprehend what they read in an advert on eBay. It seems to me that, despite denials, somebody here bears a grudge and are expressing it in a most unpleasantly smug manner which hardly inspires confidence in their motivation, character or judgement. My feeling is that issues like this would be best restricted to off-list correspondence. And whether or not Mr Arnold subsequently wishes to change the text of his advert is surely up to him, he alone is responsible for his own words. And anyway, caveat emptor. Private emails have again been posted on the list (which I believe is against the rules). In any case the ebay ad does not read as Carothers reported. See http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=290023409215 Carothers continues: I see Steve (Chicago) Arnold as a direct threat to this great hobby Hmm, rather an exaggeration isnt it? I rather think this constant bitching and back-biting we find all too much of on this list is a greater direct threat to the hobby. The repetetivity of this kind of exhibition will merely make a laughing stock of the whole milieu. I've going to be your own personal Ralph Nader. Every time you post a misleading/untruthful/fraudulent ad, I'm going to expose it... publicly. [...] someone needs to expose you for what you are.” It might be a novel idea to suggest, but perhaps we could use the list to talk about meteorites and not persue private vendettas against other list members? Please? You are really helping nobody here. I’m hoping the publicity and peer pressure will convince Steve (Chicago) Arnold develop a different set of morals. Though yet another ungrammatical sentence, that sounds awfully self-righteous. I know nothing of Mr Arnold's morals, nor would I presume to judge them from an eBay ad. Mr Carothers, in future, please leave me off the list of addressees of such open letters, I really dont want to receive any more such spam with filled with pettiness and 'holier than thou' smugness. And I would not be surprised to find that I am the only list member who feels like this. Thank you. Paul Barford __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] An open message to all list members
Paul, You're entitled to your opinion, as am I. With regards to your comment I think it is arrogant to think there is only one person here who can check or comprehend what they read in an advert on eBay. You're absolutely correct... that is for anyone who has been collecting for a while. What about the new people coming into the hobby who DON'T know any better or have the experience? From what I've seen, there is no stardards-baased body that regulates the buying and selling of meteorites. We tend to be self regulating. As to your comment: In any case the ebay ad does not read as Carothers reported. You are incorrect. Steve made the alteration to his ad AFTER I informed him of the misrepresentation. As to whether my comments are exagerated or not depends on the point of view of the reader, how much you value your collection, and how much you see Steve (Chicago) Arnold as a threat. Again, You're entitled to your opinion, as am I. Dave - Original Message - From: Paul Barford [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2006 4:41 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] An open message to all list members Dave Carothers warns: WE as a community have REAL problems. Dressing mud-slinging up in self-righteous verbiage about doing it for the good of the community is just a smokescreen. I think it is arrogant to think there is only one person here who can check or comprehend what they read in an advert on eBay. It seems to me that, despite denials, somebody here bears a grudge and are expressing it in a most unpleasantly smug manner which hardly inspires confidence in their motivation, character or judgement. My feeling is that issues like this would be best restricted to off-list correspondence. And whether or not Mr Arnold subsequently wishes to change the text of his advert is surely up to him, he alone is responsible for his own words. And anyway, caveat emptor. Private emails have again been posted on the list (which I believe is against the rules). In any case the ebay ad does not read as Carothers reported. See http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=290023409215 Carothers continues: I see Steve (Chicago) Arnold as a direct threat to this great hobby Hmm, rather an exaggeration isnt it? I rather think this constant bitching and back-biting we find all too much of on this list is a greater direct threat to the hobby. The repetetivity of this kind of exhibition will merely make a laughing stock of the whole milieu. I've going to be your own personal Ralph Nader. Every time you post a misleading/untruthful/fraudulent ad, I'm going to expose it... publicly. [...] someone needs to expose you for what you are.” It might be a novel idea to suggest, but perhaps we could use the list to talk about meteorites and not persue private vendettas against other list members? Please? You are really helping nobody here. I’m hoping the publicity and peer pressure will convince Steve (Chicago) Arnold develop a different set of morals. Though yet another ungrammatical sentence, that sounds awfully self-righteous. I know nothing of Mr Arnold's morals, nor would I presume to judge them from an eBay ad. Mr Carothers, in future, please leave me off the list of addressees of such open letters, I really dont want to receive any more such spam with filled with pettiness and 'holier than thou' smugness. And I would not be surprised to find that I am the only list member who feels like this. Thank you. Paul Barford __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] An open message to all list members
Paul Barford wrote: I rather think this constant bitching and back-biting we find all too much of on this list is a greater direct threat to the hobby... Well said!!! I agree 100%!!! Peter Marmet Bern, Switzerland __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] An open message to all list members
Dear Dave, List; It was the idealism of the very infant IMCA to strive to get it's members (and the entire meteorite community) to offer a higher level of ethicslet me repeat thatIt was the ideal of the infant IMCA to strive to get it's members to offer a higher level of ethics That being said, is Ssteve an IMCA member, and why would anyone buy from anyone who is not a member? This was the idealism set to task a number of years ago. There will always be losers selling meteorites. When the riff-raff and wanta-be's become too frequent, maybe the IMCA seal will mean a great more to individuals than it does now. If you aren't an IMCA member, why not, and if you are, do you support only IMCA member dealers or do you support these riffraff sellers that continually (and I am talking about a number of years of phony sales tactics in this case) offer suspect auctions and bogus claims? The market she is in ruin and it is the repeat offenders that continue foreword and get encouragement from the uninformed or those that choose to associate with these suspect individuals. Ssteve's issues have been an issue for all meteorite collectors every since he came to the meteorite list and became a meteorite dealer. Leopards seldom loose their spots regardless of their seemingly sincere claims. I am sure there are a couple others that most knowledgeable collectors stay away from as well. To a degree, we cannot protect dumb collectors from making bad choices with very suspect individuals. I rather to think we all should support better quality dealers and let less desirable individuals become extinct. The story of He-Who's-Name-We-Do-Not-Mention is a prime example of a united meteorite community. Petty crooks don't seem to rate this type of excommunication these days it would seem. Sincerely, Dave F. IMCA #3864 since the beginning Dave Carothers wrote: To all list members, I’m sure most of you have seen my emails relating to the misrepresentations and falsehoods perpetrated by Steve (Chicago) Arnold in his ads and posts. First of all, let me apologize to the list membership for making these emails public and in effect, loading up your mailboxes. I believe there is good reason, however, for making these emails public. It is for that reason I felt I should explain some of the background issues and provide my rationale below. Everyone on this list has invested a lot of time, effort, and most importantly, money in their respective meteorite collections. I personally take great umbrage at anyone who would jeopardize my collection, either directly or indirectly, by casting ANY doubt on ANY facet or aspect of collecting meteorites. The process of buying and selling meteorites and the specimens themselves ALL have to be genuine and above reproach at ALL times We also have a number of list members who make their living by selling meteorites. I won’t even begin to speak for them, but I’ve seen several of these folks get down and dirty at any potential threat to their livelihood…. and rightfully so. My issue with Steve (Chicago) Arnold is that he just doesn’t care what he puts in his ads. In July, when I first caught his ads containing misrepresentations and falsehoods, he told me: “WHAT IS IT TO YOU?? MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS.” I ask you all…. What kind of reply is that? What does that tell you about Steve (Chicago) Arnold’s integrity and morals? Today, I noticed a misrepresentation on one of his eBay sales and mentioned it on the list (as I previously promised I would --- see below). Again, I received these rather disturbing comments from Steve. “I REALLY WISH YOU WOULD STOP HARRASING ME ABOUT THIS PETTY BULL.” [replaced with * so as to not offend] “I AM TIRED OF PEOPLE CONTINOUSLY HARRISING ME FOR NO REASON.” “IT IS NOT YOUR PURPOSE IN LIFE TO POLICE ME OR EBAY,OR ANYONE ELSE IN THIS WORLD EXCEPT YOURSELF.ENOUGH OF THIS BULL.” [replaced with * so as to not offend] I’m sorry, but if anyone thinks that perpetrating misrepresentations and falsehoods when selling meteorites is “PETTY BULL” or that calling it to his attention is “HARRISING ME FOR NO REASON” then WE as a community have REAL problems. This poor pathetic act of his is a scam. I invite all list members to go back to the archives and look at Steve’s MO. If anyone catches him doing something he shouldn’t, he immediate screams that he is being harassed. OK, so why am I getting involved in this? I see Steve (Chicago) Arnold as a direct threat to this great hobby (and in some cases, livelihood) of ours and also more specifically to the time, effort, and money I’ve invested in my collection. As I told Steve several weeks ago: “You're a dangerous person, Steve. You're a danger to any and ALL legitimate dealers, sellers, and collectors of meteorites. You're like the auto industry back 40-50 years ago. They used to misrepresent and make false claims about the
Re: [meteorite-list] An open message to all list members
Greetings Paul, Peter and list, Very well said! --AL Mitterling Paul Barford wrote: I rather think this constant bitching and back-biting we find all too much of on this list is a greater direct threat to the hobby... Well said!!! I agree 100%!!! Peter Marmet Bern, Switzerland __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] An open message to all list members
That being said, is Ssteve an IMCA member, and why would anyone buy from anyone who is not a member? checking the membership list quick i see that Bob Haag, Mike Farmer, Blaine Reed, Adam Hupe, Al Lang, all of the morrocain sources I know, as well as several major collectors ARENT members - to name just a few. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] An open message to all list members
In a message dated 8/27/2006 6:29:26 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: That being said, is Ssteve an IMCA member, and why would anyone buy from anyone who is not a member? checking the membership list quick i see that Bob Haag, Mike Farmer, Blaine Reed, Adam Hupe, Al Lang, all of the morrocain sources I know, as well as several major collectors ARENT members - to name just a few. -- You must be looking at a very old list. Adam and Greg Hupe are members. In fact Adam Hupe sits on the Board of Directors. Several major collectors are members too. Anne M. Black www.IMPACTIKA.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] President, I.M.C.A. Inc. www.IMCA.cc __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] An open message to all list members
Dear Stan; Your response is well taken. Maybe at this point, the issue of petty crooks ISN'T as important as we think and a rotten apple or two in the cellar is not enough to get the pastry chefs to want to clean out the stinky mess. It is also quite true in this market place that money talks (and we know what walks), and funny how your named individuals that are not members are probably the first in the supply chain to take his money in exchange for meteorites. Maybe the answer is a robust meteorite sales market where sellers can pick and choose to whom they sell to. At that point maybe he could be pushed away for a better character of individuals. Maybe the cow did jump over the moon. It may boil down to the old adage of let the buyer beware. Used car dealers, politicians, and snake oil salesmen for the most part have to be regulated by an informed consuming public, and we cannot legislate society no how much (I) we would like to. Ssteve's issues have been a delightful topic for a number of years and I predict this issue will cycle in and out quarterly for the next decade. I do agree with Dave C. and note that if every new collector that comes to us for education understands that some sellers tend to forget, accidentally omit, didn't mean to imply sorry for trhe poor quality photos, my wife made me do it, just one trade, will never trade this new piece away, it really did come from a famous dealer, it is the only one leftfrequently in their auctions that the new collector would be wiser to spend their money with more reputable sellers (even if they are BIG enough not to need the IMCA seal on their auctions). Sometimes there are no answers. Dave F. stan . wrote: That being said, is Ssteve an IMCA member, and why would anyone buy from anyone who is not a member? checking the membership list quick i see that Bob Haag, Mike Farmer, Blaine Reed, Adam Hupe, Al Lang, all of the morrocain sources I know, as well as several major collectors ARENT members - to name just a few. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] An open message to all list members
It is the same old argument that has STAINED this list for the 6+ years I have been on it. The guy in chicago who needs no intro. Between spamming with sales offers over and over, mindless blathering for trades, unscrupulous transactions and his ever popular anything you can do I can do better bragging about his collection. Sooner or later you are all going to just quit giving this guy his 15 minute of fame. He is notorious, why is anyone still listening to him or doing business with him and why is he once again getting his 15 minutes of fame? Sooner or later you all will learn that the Bozo the Clown show is based in Chicago to stay clear of BOZO in Chicago and we will all be better off. Thanks - Original Message - From: Dave Freeman mjwy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Dave Carothers [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: meteorite list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2006 5:02 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] An open message to all list members Dear Dave, List; It was the idealism of the very infant IMCA to strive to get it's members (and the entire meteorite community) to offer a higher level of ethicslet me repeat thatIt was the ideal of the infant IMCA to strive to get it's members to offer a higher level of ethics That being said, is Ssteve an IMCA member, and why would anyone buy from anyone who is not a member? This was the idealism set to task a number of years ago. There will always be losers selling meteorites. When the riff-raff and wanta-be's become too frequent, maybe the IMCA seal will mean a great more to individuals than it does now. If you aren't an IMCA member, why not, and if you are, do you support only IMCA member dealers or do you support these riffraff sellers that continually (and I am talking about a number of years of phony sales tactics in this case) offer suspect auctions and bogus claims? The market she is in ruin and it is the repeat offenders that continue foreword and get encouragement from the uninformed or those that choose to associate with these suspect individuals. Ssteve's issues have been an issue for all meteorite collectors every since he came to the meteorite list and became a meteorite dealer. Leopards seldom loose their spots regardless of their seemingly sincere claims. I am sure there are a couple others that most knowledgeable collectors stay away from as well. To a degree, we cannot protect dumb collectors from making bad choices with very suspect individuals. I rather to think we all should support better quality dealers and let less desirable individuals become extinct. The story of He-Who's-Name-We-Do-Not-Mention is a prime example of a united meteorite community. Petty crooks don't seem to rate this type of excommunication these days it would seem. Sincerely, Dave F. IMCA #3864 since the beginning Dave Carothers wrote: To all list members, I’m sure most of you have seen my emails relating to the misrepresentations and falsehoods perpetrated by Steve (Chicago) Arnold in his ads and posts. First of all, let me apologize to the list membership for making these emails public and in effect, loading up your mailboxes. I believe there is good reason, however, for making these emails public. It is for that reason I felt I should explain some of the background issues and provide my rationale below. Everyone on this list has invested a lot of time, effort, and most importantly, money in their respective meteorite collections. I personally take great umbrage at anyone who would jeopardize my collection, either directly or indirectly, by casting ANY doubt on ANY facet or aspect of collecting meteorites. The process of buying and selling meteorites and the specimens themselves ALL have to be genuine and above reproach at ALL times We also have a number of list members who make their living by selling meteorites. I won’t even begin to speak for them, but I’ve seen several of these folks get down and dirty at any potential threat to their livelihood…. and rightfully so. My issue with Steve (Chicago) Arnold is that he just doesn’t care what he puts in his ads. In July, when I first caught his ads containing misrepresentations and falsehoods, he told me: “WHAT IS IT TO YOU?? MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS.” I ask you all…. What kind of reply is that? What does that tell you about Steve (Chicago) Arnold’s integrity and morals? Today, I noticed a misrepresentation on one of his eBay sales and mentioned it on the list (as I previously promised I would --- see below). Again, I received these rather disturbing comments from Steve. “I REALLY WISH YOU WOULD STOP HARRASING ME ABOUT THIS PETTY BULL.” [replaced with * so as to not offend] “I AM TIRED OF PEOPLE CONTINOUSLY HARRISING ME FOR NO REASON.” “IT IS NOT YOUR PURPOSE IN LIFE TO POLICE ME OR EBAY,OR ANYONE ELSE IN THIS WORLD EXCEPT YOURSELF.ENOUGH OF THIS BULL.” [replaced with * so as to not offend] I’m sorry
Re: [meteorite-list] An open message to all list members
Hallo David and list, I am a member from the IMCA but your statement of this below is simply silly! That being said, is Ssteve an IMCA member, and why would anyone buy from anyone who is not a member? There are many fine meteorite collectors and dealers that do not belong to the IMCA and are not crooks. With best regards, Moni __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] An open message to all list members
You must be looking at a very old list. Adam and Greg Hupe are members. In fact Adam Hupe sits on the Board of Directors. i just looked at the list when i made that post - maybe directlrs arent listed as members - or maybe i just missed Adam's name. but thats not the point - there are more than just one or two highly respected members of the meteorite community that are NOT mebers. the 'why owuld anyone buy from someone who isnt a member' statement is just plain laughable when you consider who ISNT a member. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] An open message to all list members
And, lest we forget that CHICAGO is the world's capital of bologna!!! Dave F. (lips, ears, snouts, and other unmentional parts that are involved with bodily function are to be expected) Mark wrote: It is the same old argument that has STAINED this list for the 6+ years I have been on it. The guy in chicago who needs no intro. Between spamming with sales offers over and over, mindless blathering for trades, unscrupulous transactions and his ever popular anything you can do I can do better bragging about his collection. Sooner or later you are all going to just quit giving this guy his 15 minute of fame. He is notorious, why is anyone still listening to him or doing business with him and why is he once again getting his 15 minutes of fame? Sooner or later you all will learn that the Bozo the Clown show is based in Chicago to stay clear of BOZO in Chicago and we will all be better off. Thanks - Original Message - From: Dave Freeman mjwy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Dave Carothers [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: meteorite list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2006 5:02 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] An open message to all list members Dear Dave, List; It was the idealism of the very infant IMCA to strive to get it's members (and the entire meteorite community) to offer a higher level of ethicslet me repeat thatIt was the ideal of the infant IMCA to strive to get it's members to offer a higher level of ethics That being said, is Ssteve an IMCA member, and why would anyone buy from anyone who is not a member? This was the idealism set to task a number of years ago. There will always be losers selling meteorites. When the riff-raff and wanta-be's become too frequent, maybe the IMCA seal will mean a great more to individuals than it does now. If you aren't an IMCA member, why not, and if you are, do you support only IMCA member dealers or do you support these riffraff sellers that continually (and I am talking about a number of years of phony sales tactics in this case) offer suspect auctions and bogus claims? The market she is in ruin and it is the repeat offenders that continue foreword and get encouragement from the uninformed or those that choose to associate with these suspect individuals. Ssteve's issues have been an issue for all meteorite collectors every since he came to the meteorite list and became a meteorite dealer. Leopards seldom loose their spots regardless of their seemingly sincere claims. I am sure there are a couple others that most knowledgeable collectors stay away from as well. To a degree, we cannot protect dumb collectors from making bad choices with very suspect individuals. I rather to think we all should support better quality dealers and let less desirable individuals become extinct. The story of He-Who's-Name-We-Do-Not-Mention is a prime example of a united meteorite community. Petty crooks don't seem to rate this type of excommunication these days it would seem. Sincerely, Dave F. IMCA #3864 since the beginning Dave Carothers wrote: To all list members, I’m sure most of you have seen my emails relating to the misrepresentations and falsehoods perpetrated by Steve (Chicago) Arnold in his ads and posts. First of all, let me apologize to the list membership for making these emails public and in effect, loading up your mailboxes. I believe there is good reason, however, for making these emails public. It is for that reason I felt I should explain some of the background issues and provide my rationale below. Everyone on this list has invested a lot of time, effort, and most importantly, money in their respective meteorite collections. I personally take great umbrage at anyone who would jeopardize my collection, either directly or indirectly, by casting ANY doubt on ANY facet or aspect of collecting meteorites. The process of buying and selling meteorites and the specimens themselves ALL have to be genuine and above reproach at ALL times We also have a number of list members who make their living by selling meteorites. I won’t even begin to speak for them, but I’ve seen several of these folks get down and dirty at any potential threat to their livelihood…. and rightfully so. My issue with Steve (Chicago) Arnold is that he just doesn’t care what he puts in his ads. In July, when I first caught his ads containing misrepresentations and falsehoods, he told me: “WHAT IS IT TO YOU?? MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS.” I ask you all…. What kind of reply is that? What does that tell you about Steve (Chicago) Arnold’s integrity and morals? Today, I noticed a misrepresentation on one of his eBay sales and mentioned it on the list (as I previously promised I would --- see below). Again, I received these rather disturbing comments from Steve. “I REALLY WISH YOU WOULD STOP HARRASING ME ABOUT THIS PETTY BULL.” [replaced with * so as to not offend] “I AM TIRED OF PEOPLE
Re: [meteorite-list] An open message to all list members
I stand corrected. I think that all non members must have a very good individual reason for not joining or supporting the IMCA. I am sure this would be fascinating to learn about. Maybe all NEW collectors before buying could ask 1. are you an IMCA member, and 2. if not a member why not? Ebay has a feed back system, we all view that. The IMCA is not a perfect organization, the feed back would be a wonderful topic for a new thread which would be quite timely since the elections are coming along soon. Dave Freeman IMCA #3864 Moni Waiblinger-Seabridge wrote: Hallo David and list, I am a member from the IMCA but your statement of this below is simply silly! That being said, is Ssteve an IMCA member, and why would anyone buy from anyone who is not a member? There are many fine meteorite collectors and dealers that do not belong to the IMCA and are not crooks. With best regards, Moni __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
