[meteorite-list] Could a meteorite crash have caused the huge depression off the Kerala coast?
http://www.thenewsminute.com/article/could-meteorite-crash-have-caused-huge-depression-kerala-coast-51515 Regards! Tom __ Visit our Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/meteoritecentral and the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com https://pairlist3.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Could Upcoming Comet Flybys Damage Mars Spacecraft?
http://www.space.com/22859-mars-spacecraft-comet-flybys-dangers.html Could Upcoming Comet Flybys Damage Mars Spacecraft? By Leonard David space.com September 19, 2013 Two comets will buzz Mars over the course of the next year, prompting excitement as well as some concern that cometary particles could hit the spacecraft orbiting the Red Planet and exploring its surface. Three operational spacecraft currently circle Mars: NASA's Odyssey and Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter (MRO), as well as Europe's Mars Express. NASA also has two functioning rovers, Curiosity and Opportunity, on the ground on Mars. All of these spacecraft will have ringside seats as Comet ISON cruises by Mars this year, followed by Comet 2013 A1 (Siding Spring) in 2014. Crossing the sublime line The MRO spacecraft has been on the lookout for Comet ISON, said Richard Zurek, MRO project scientist and chief scientist in the Mars Program Office at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL) in Pasadena, Calif. On Aug. 20, MRO looked for Comet ISON, which experts say could put on a dazzling sky show here on Earth shortly after the icy wanderer zips a scant 724,000 miles (1.16 million kilometers) above the surface of the sun on Nov. 28. During last month's observation by MRO, ISON was 1 astronomical unit (AU) from Mars and 2.5 AU from the sun. (One AU is the distance from Earth to the sun - about 93 million miles, or 1.5 million km.) Given ISON's distance from the sun, the comet should have crossed the solar system's snow line by that time, Zurek told SPACE.com. At the snow line, many comets brighten as ice more rapidly sublimes into gas due to increasing solar radiation. The MRO instruments did not see anything, Zurek said, and evidence suggests the instruments were pointed accurately. Thus, the current conclusion is that the comet had not brightened quite enough to be seen at that range with the MRO instruments. Comet ISON's current luminosity is a topic of much discussion among astronomers and skywatchers alike. The icy wanderer was branded a comet of the century candidate almost immediately after its discovery in September 2012, but recent observations suggest that it's not brightening as much as expected or hoped on its trek toward the sun. More observations ahead MRO will look at ISON again, Zurek said, with observations scheduled for Sept. 29, Oct. 1 and Oct. 2 (when the comet will be closest to Mars). At those times, ISON will be roughly 14 times closer and will likely be relatively easy to detect. At the closest passage distance, there is no concern that cometary particles from ISON will affect the orbiters or Mars, he said. NASA's 1-ton Curiosity rover and its smaller, older cousin, Opportunity, will also image ISON from the Martian surface later this month, Zurek said. However, those plans are still being formulated. The spacecraft in orbit around Mars and on the planet will give scientists a better chance of investigating Comet ISON, though that is not their primary function, said Michael Meyer, lead scientist for NASA's Mars Exploration Program at the agency's headquarters in Washington, D.C. Mars has a better view than Earth does right now, Meyer said. However, it is challenging for orbital and landed assets as they are not really designed to do this sort of thing. They are supposed to be looking at Mars. Meyer spoke via Skype Aug. 25 during a New Media Practitioners Professional Development Workshop on the upcoming launch of NASA's Mars Atmosphere and Volatile Evolution orbiter (or Maven for short). The workshop took place at the University of Colorado Boulder's Laboratory for Atmospheric and Space Physics (LASP). Another comet coming After ISON, scientists will look forward to Comet Siding Spring, Meyer said. That comet will make a very close approach to Mars in October 2014, skirting just 76,428 miles (123,000 km) from the planet, according to the current best estimates. That promises to be pretty exciting, Meyer said. Right now, in all honesty, what we know about it and what sort of calculations can be done - the error bars are extremely large. The comet poses risks to orbiters circling Mars, Meyer said, a prospect that may lead to re-orienting and maneuvering of the craft to protect them from comet particle strikes. But whether it's a 10 percent, 1 percent or 0.1 percent risk remains unknown at the moment, he said. You can't get too worked up about it until you get some measurements as the comet gets closer, Meyer said. It promises to be quite a show - if we're able to look at it. Stay tuned In early August, JPL issued a request for proposals to help characterize the cometary environment of Comet Siding Spring, with proposals due on Sept. 11. The intent is to provide data products useful for risk assessment and mitigation-strategy development for the Mars orbiter missions, due to possible impacts from dust and ion tail particles as this comet
[meteorite-list] Could new rules on fossils bury citizen paleontology?
Although this applies to fossil collecting, it also has implications for meteorite collectors. Could new rules on fossils bury citizen paleontology? (Forest Service wants to limit ‘casual collecting’ to 25 pounds a year) by Brett Prettyman and Brian Maffly The Salt Lake Tribune, July 24. 2013 http://www.bendbulletin.com/article/20130724/NEWS0107/307240320 Yours, Paul H. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Could a Comet Hit Mars in 2014? (Comet C/2013 A1)
http://www.space.com/20045-comet-hit-mars-2014.html Could a Comet Hit Mars in 2014? Ian O'Neill Discovery News March 4, 2013 A recently discovered comet will make an uncomfortably-close planetary flyby next year - but this time it's not Earth that's in the cosmic crosshairs. According to preliminary orbital prediction models, comet C/2013 A1 will buzz Mars on Oct. 19, 2014. The icy interloper is thought to originate from the Oort Cloud - a hypothetical region surrounding the solar system containing countless billions of cometary nuclei that were outcast from the primordial solar system billions of years ago. We know that the planets have been hit by comets before (re: the massive Comet Shoemaker-Levy 9 that crashed into Jupiter in 1994) and Mars, in particular, will have been hit by comets in the past. It's believed Earth's oceans were created, in part, by water delivered by comets - cometary impacts are an inevitable part of living in this cosmic ecosystem. C/2013 A1 was discovered by ace comet-hunter Robert McNaught at the Siding Spring Observatory in New South Wales, Australia, on Jan. 3. When the discovery was made, astronomers at the Catalina Sky Survey in Arizona looked back over their observations to find prerecovery images of the comet dating back to Dec. 8, 2012. These observations placed the orbital trajectory of comet C/2013 A1 through Mars orbit on Oct. 19, 2014. Could the Red Planet be in for a potentially huge impact next year? Will Mars rovers Curiosity and Opportunity be in danger of becoming scrap metal? It seems the likelihood of an awesome planetary impact is low - for now. According to calculations by NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL), close approach data suggests the comet is most likely to make a close pass of 0.0007 AU (that's approximately 63,000 miles from the Martian surface). However, there's one huge caveat. Due to uncertainties in the observations - the comet has only been observed for 74 days (so far), so it's difficult for astronomers to forecast the comet's precise location in 20 months time - comet C/2013 A1 may fly past at a very safe distance of 0.008 AU (650,000 miles). But to the other extreme, its orbital pass could put Mars directly in its path. At time of Mars close approach (or impact), the comet will be barreling along at a breakneck speed of 35 miles per second (126,000 miles per hour). Also, we don't yet know how big comet C/2013 A1 is, but comets typically aren't small. If it did hit, the impact could be a huge, global event. But the comet's likely location in 2014 is also highly uncertain, so this is by no means a sure thing for Mars impact (Curiosity, you can relax, for now). One thing is looking likely, however. Mars could be in for its own cometary spectacular. A flyby of that distance will mean that should C3/2013 A1 erupt with a tail and coma around its nucleus (as it becomes heated by solar radiation), our Mars rovers and orbiting armada of planetary observation satellites will have a very intimate view of this historic moment. It has the potential to be a more impressive sight than Comet ISON's inner-solar system trek later this year. But understanding the nature of comets is hard to predict; we won't know if the sun's heating will be sufficient enough for the comet nucleus to erupt and start out-gassing for some time to come. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Could Zaklodzie be from Mercury?
Interesting News Could Zaklodzie be from Mercury? http://www.space.com/17727-mercury-surface-rare-meteorites.html Mercury's Surface Resembles Rare Meteorites by Charles Q. Choi, SPACE.com Contributor Date: 24 September 2012 Time: 07:26 AM ET Mercury has a surface unlike any other planet's in the solar system, instead resembling a rare type of meteorite, researchers say. The finding, based on an analysis of data from NASA's Messenger probe, sheds new light on the formation and history of the mysterious innermost planet, scientists add. Mercury, the smallest planet in the solar system, is also one of the least understood, having received much less attention from scientific missions than Mars, Jupiter and Saturn. NASA set out to change that when it launched the Messenger probe a little more than eight years ago. Messenger became the first spacecraft to orbit Mercury. Past research based on Messenger data suggested a vast part of Mercury is covered with hardened lava, enough to bury the state of Texas under 4 miles (6.4 kilometers) of once-molten rock, scientists said. All in all, these mammoth floods of lava cover 6 percent of the planet's surface, an area equal to nearly 60 percent of the continental United States. They created Mercury's smooth northern plains between 3.5 billion to 4 billion years ago. [Latest Photos of Mercury by Messenger Probe] This view from NASA's Messenger spacecraft orbiting Mercury shows a region of smooth, volcanic plains that have been heavily modified by tectonic structures termed wrinkle ridges, low, sinuous features that form when lavas cool and subside, causing the This view from NASA's Messenger spacecraft orbiting Mercury shows a region of smooth, volcanic plains that have been heavily modified by tectonic structures termed wrinkle ridges, low, sinuous features that form when lavas cool and subside, causing the crust to contract horizontally. Image released Feb. 10, 2012. CREDIT: NASA/Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory/Carnegie Institution of Washington Lava plains are common in the solar system. For instance, young Mars spewed lava all across its surface, and it still has the largest volcano in the solar system: Olympus Mons is about 370 miles (600 km) in diameter, wide enough to cover the entire state of New Mexico, and 16 miles (25 km) high, three times taller than Mount Everest. Now, 205 measurements of Mercury's surface composition, made by the X-ray spectrometer onboard Messenger, reveal how much Mercury's surface differs from those of other planets in the solar system. Being the closest planet to the sun does mean its formation history would be different and more extreme than the other terrestrial planets, with hotter temperatures and exposure to a stronger gravitational field, says lead study author Shoshana Weider, a planetary geologist at the Carnegie Institution of Washington. The surface is dominated by minerals high in magnesium and enriched in sulfur, making it similar to partially melted versions of an enstatite chondrite, a rare type of meteorite that formed at high temperatures in low-oxygen conditions in the inner solar system. The similarity between the constituents of these meteorites and Mercury's surface leads us to believe that either Mercury formed via the accretion of materials somewhat like the enstatite chondrites, or that both enstatite chondrites and the Mercury precursors were built from common ancestors, Weider said. The researchers also looked at the areas around the northern volcanic plains. These surrounding locales are more pockmarked by craters, suggesting they are older, with more time spent getting scarred by meteor impacts. The older terrain possesses higher ratios of magnesium to silicon, sulfur to silicon and calcium to silicon than the northern plains do, but it also has lower ratios of aluminum to silicon. These differences suggest the smooth plains came from magma sources that were chemically different from the source of the material seen in the older regions. The chemical differences between the northern plains and the surrounding areas, combined with the fact that the northern plains are younger by about 500 million years, tells us that the volcanic activity which produced the northern plains involved melting of different sections of Mercury's mantle, at cooler temperatures and at a later stage in the planet's history than the activity that would have produced the older surrounding terrains, Weider said. The scientists will detail their findings in an upcoming issue of the Journal of Geophysical Research-Planets. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Could we get back to the science of meteorites, please ?
I agree with Steve Bernd! I must say that I also agree with Bernd regarding NWA 5507. It's definitely one of my favourite Type-3 chondrites. Just spectacular! http://www.encyclopedia-of-meteorites.com/meteorite.aspx?id=49207 http://www.meteorites.com.au/favourite/january2010.html Cheers, Jeff - Original Message - From: bernd.pa...@paulinet.de To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 7:17 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] Could we get back to the science of meteorites,please ? Steve wrote: Second! Bernd: Third! :-)) I've been spending an enjoyable evening at the microscope ogling my NWA 5507 slice (16.39 gr - see Encyclopedia if interested). Marcin's NWA 5507 is an interesting L3.2 with lots of spectacular features: - clasts (or PP chondrules?) with abundant translucent, light-green hypersthene crystals, a greyish groundmass + numerous tiny chromites - finely disseminated troilite - troilite-rimmed chondrules - complex BO-Pyroxene chondrules - and so much more! Cheers, Bernd __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Could we get back to the science of meteorites, please ?
Hello all, I usually stay away from these protracted discussions and am quite happy to lurk on the list. A lot of good, qualified people discussing a topic I truly enjoy: meteorites. Now, I am not interested in sparring with anyone. I just published an article in the Montreal Gazette debunking UFOs; you could substitute UFOS for anything else in the ever widening field of pseudoscience and my article would remain essentially the same. So anyone eager for my views can readily look the article up. However, my computer has recently been invaded by an avalanche of emails from this list that has *nothing* to do with meteorites or science. The basic problem is that pseudoscience is like a religion; no amount of science will ever convince its proponents. So I usually don't bother; ignorance is bliss, as they say. So those who believe in dowsing, divining rods and whatever other contraption, feel free to search with them. Think you can find meteorites, gold, diamonds, water, Jimmy Hoffa with a stick ? Go for it ! That is your business; I'm just not interested. So, could we get back to the science of meteorites, please ? Cheers Andre __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Could we get back to the science of meteorites, please ?
I Agree Greg S. From: dak_...@live.concordia.ca To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 18:07:21 + Subject: [meteorite-list] Could we get back to the science of meteorites, please ? Hello all, I usually stay away from these protracted discussions and am quite happy to lurk on the list. A lot of good, qualified people discussing a topic I truly enjoy: meteorites. Now, I am not interested in sparring with anyone. I just published an article in the Montreal Gazette debunking UFOs; you could substitute UFOS for anything else in the ever widening field of pseudoscience and my article would remain essentially the same. So anyone eager for my views can readily look the article up. However, my computer has recently been invaded by an avalanche of emails from this list that has *nothing* to do with meteorites or science. The basic problem is that pseudoscience is like a religion; no amount of science will ever convince its proponents. So I usually don't bother; ignorance is bliss, as they say. So those who believe in dowsing, divining rods and whatever other contraption, feel free to search with them. Think you can find meteorites, gold, diamonds, water, Jimmy Hoffa with a stick ? Go for it ! That is your business; I'm just not interested. So, could we get back to the science of meteorites, please ? Cheers Andre __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Could we get back to the science of meteorites, please ?
Second! Steve Witt IMCA #9020 http://imca.cc/ --- On Mon, 10/18/10, Thunder Stone stanleygr...@hotmail.com wrote: From: Thunder Stone stanleygr...@hotmail.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Could we get back to the science of meteorites, please ? To: dak_...@live.concordia.ca, meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Monday, October 18, 2010, 2:20 PM I Agree Greg S. From: dak_...@live.concordia.ca To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 18:07:21 + Subject: [meteorite-list] Could we get back to the science of meteorites, please ? Hello all, I usually stay away from these protracted discussions and am quite happy to lurk on the list. A lot of good, qualified people discussing a topic I truly enjoy: meteorites. Now, I am not interested in sparring with anyone. I just published an article in the Montreal Gazette debunking UFOs; you could substitute UFOS for anything else in the ever widening field of pseudoscience and my article would remain essentially the same. So anyone eager for my views can readily look the article up. However, my computer has recently been invaded by an avalanche of emails from this list that has *nothing* to do with meteorites or science. The basic problem is that pseudoscience is like a religion; no amount of science will ever convince its proponents. So I usually don't bother; ignorance is bliss, as they say. So those who believe in dowsing, divining rods and whatever other contraption, feel free to search with them. Think you can find meteorites, gold, diamonds, water, Jimmy Hoffa with a stick ? Go for it ! That is your business; I'm just not interested. So, could we get back to the science of meteorites, please ? Cheers Andre __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Could we get back to the science of meteorites, please ?
I have an idea, instead of whining like a little school-girl about not being
able to control the speech of others, why not just start an awesome
meteorite related thread that is so interesting it totally dominates the
conversation? Ever think of that? Or is it just more fun to whine? ;) :@
:() hey look, it's an emoticon with a mustache :{)
---
Seriously, lighten up,
Phil Whitmer
__
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[meteorite-list] Could we get back to the science of meteorites, please ?
Steve wrote: Second! Bernd: Third! :-)) I've been spending an enjoyable evening at the microscope ogling my NWA 5507 slice (16.39 gr - see Encyclopedia if interested). Marcin's NWA 5507 is an interesting L3.2 with lots of spectacular features: - clasts (or PP chondrules?) with abundant translucent, light-green hypersthene crystals in a grayish groundmass + tiny chromites - finely disseminated troilite - troilite-rimmed chondrules - complex BO-Pyroxene chondrules - and much more! Best wishes, Bernd __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Could we get back to the science of meteorites, please ?
Finally the voice of reason! The volume of OT subjects on this METEORITE mailing list is the VERY reason I check the archives instead of receiving emails. A meteorite could have crashed through the White House and not generated the volume of emails this OT subject has generated over the last few days. Jim Hello all, I usually stay away from these protracted discussions and am quite happy to lurk on the list. A lot of good, qualified people discussing a topic I truly enjoy: meteorites. Now, I am not interested in sparring with anyone. I just published an article in the Montreal Gazette debunking UFOs; you could substitute UFOS for anything else in the ever widening field of pseudoscience and my article would remain essentially the same. So anyone eager for my views can readily look the article up. However, my computer has recently been invaded by an avalanche of emails from this list that has *nothing* to do with meteorites or science. The basic problem is that pseudoscience is like a religion; no amount of science will ever convince its proponents. So I usually don't bother; ignorance is bliss, as they say. So those who believe in dowsing, divining rods and whatever other contraption, feel free to search with them. Think you can find meteorites, gold, diamonds, water, Jimmy Hoffa with a stick ? Go for it ! That is your business; I'm just not interested. So, could we get back to the science of meteorites, please ? Cheers Andre __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Could we get back to the science of meteorites, please ?
Steve wrote: Second! Bernd: Third! :-)) I've been spending an enjoyable evening at the microscope ogling my NWA 5507 slice (16.39 gr - see Encyclopedia if interested). Marcin's NWA 5507 is an interesting L3.2 with lots of spectacular features: - clasts (or PP chondrules?) with abundant translucent, light-green hypersthene crystals, a greyish groundmass + numerous tiny chromites - finely disseminated troilite - troilite-rimmed chondrules - complex BO-Pyroxene chondrules - and so much more! Cheers, Bernd __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Could we get back to the science of meteorites, please ?
Oops, sorry for the double post! Best wishes, Bernd __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Could we get back to the science of meteorites, please ?
Hi Bernd/All, Does anyone know any more about the classification of NWA 6260 which is provisionally LL7 metachondrite...Has that been confirmed yet...Met Bulletin still says Unknown? Cheers, Graham, UK On 18 October 2010 21:19, bernd.pa...@paulinet.de wrote: Oops, sorry for the double post! Best wishes, Bernd __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Could we get back to the science of meteorites, please ?
List:
Last year I purchased a meteorite at a rock and mineral show a because it just
looked a little different from most chondrites I have seen. The seller did not
know where it was found so I got the provisional name NOVA 010. The exterior
almost looked like an Iron or a Stony-Iron and it contained a lot of metal.
The metal also looked a little different - more globular then most H-chondrites
I've seen. I thought it might be a CH or an EH chondrite. Well I got it
classified and it turned out to be a reduced H4 with numbers very similar to
the Burnwell fall in KY., although it's even more reduced.
NOVA 010
W2 S3, olivine Fa 14.4 ±0.5 (n=7); low-Ca pyroxene Fs13.7 ±0.6, Wo0.6 ±0.3
(n=11)
Now here's Burnwell
W0(fall) S3, olivine Fa 15.8 ±0.2 (n=79); low-Ca pyroxene Fs13.4 ±0.7, Wo0.7
±0.2 (n=98)
So you never know what you have until it gets classified.
Greg S.
From: joshuatreemus...@embarqmail.com
To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 16:09:52 -0400
Subject: [meteorite-list] Could we get back to the science of meteorites,
please ?
I have an idea, instead of whining like a little school-girl about not being
able to control the speech of others, why not just start an awesome
meteorite related thread that is so interesting it totally dominates the
conversation? Ever think of that? Or is it just more fun to whine? ;) :@
:() hey look, it's an emoticon with a mustache :{)
---
Seriously, lighten up,
Phil Whitmer
__
Visit the Archives at
http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html
Meteorite-list mailing list
Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
__
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Meteorite-list mailing list
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Re: [meteorite-list] Could we get back to the science of meteorites, please ?
I fourth, or whatever the correct term would be. I move for the motion to be carried by acclamation. No more grousing . . . oops, I meant to say dowsing. Fred Bieler Astronomics/Christophers, Ltd./Cloudy Nights www.astronomics.com 800.422.7876 -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of bernd.pa...@paulinet.de Sent: Monday, October 18, 2010 3:06 PM To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] Could we get back to the science of meteorites, please ? Steve wrote: Second! Bernd: Third! :-)) I've been spending an enjoyable evening at the microscope ogling my NWA 5507 slice (16.39 gr - see Encyclopedia if interested). Marcin's NWA 5507 is an interesting L3.2 with lots of spectacular features: - clasts (or PP chondrules?) with abundant translucent, light-green hypersthene crystals in a grayish groundmass + tiny chromites - finely disseminated troilite - troilite-rimmed chondrules - complex BO-Pyroxene chondrules - and much more! Best wishes, Bernd __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Could we get back to the science of meteorites, please ?
List, Could someone explain the meaning of the numbers in parenthesis? (n=7) and (n=11) is the analysis below? Thanks in advance. Mike Fowler NOVA 010 W2 S3, olivine Fa 14.4 ±0.5 (n=7); low-Ca pyroxene Fs13.7 ±0.6, Wo0.6 ±0.3 (n=11) List: Last year I purchased a meteorite at a rock and mineral show a because it just looked a little different from most chondrites I have seen. The seller did not know where it was found so I got the provisional name NOVA 010. The exterior almost looked like an Iron or a Stony-Iron and it contained a lot of metal. The metal also looked a little different - more globular then most H-chondrites I've seen. I thought it might be a CH or an EH chondrite. Well I got it classified and it turned out to be a reduced H4 with numbers very similar to the Burnwell fall in KY., although it's even more reduced. NOVA 010 W2 S3, olivine Fa 14.4 ±0.5 (n=7); low-Ca pyroxene Fs13.7 ±0.6, Wo0.6 ±0.3 (n=11) Now here's Burnwell W0(fall) S3, olivine Fa 15.8 ±0.2 (n=79); low-Ca pyroxene Fs13.4 ±0.7, Wo0.7 ±0.2 (n=98) So you never know what you have until it gets classified. Greg S. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Could we get back to the science of meteorites, please ?
Really Phil ?
Whining like a little school-girl ?
I thought Andre's email was well written and to the point. I didn't see a
bit of whining.
This nonsense about dowsing rods is getting really old.
Best regards,
Charley Butterfield
Message: 15
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 16:09:52 -0400
From: JoshuaTreeMuseum joshuatreemus...@embarqmail.com
Subject: [meteorite-list] Could we get back to the science of
meteorites, please ?
To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Message-ID: 764966a8adcd4a509838d10dac08a...@et
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
reply-type=original
I have an idea, instead of whining like a little school-girl about not
being
able to control the speech of others, why not just start an awesome
meteorite related thread that is so interesting it totally dominates the
conversation? Ever think of that? Or is it just more fun to whine? ;) :@
:() hey look, it's an emoticon with a mustache :{)
---
Seriously, lighten up,
Phil Whitmer
Message: 6
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 18:07:21 +
From: DEBORAH ANNE K. MARTIN dak_...@live.concordia.ca
Subject: [meteorite-list] Could we get back to the science of
meteorites, please ?
To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Message-ID:
d468cf74020a384cac972cdde8de859615ce5...@bl2prd0103mb074.prod.exchangelabs.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Hello all,
I usually stay away from these protracted discussions and am quite happy
to lurk on the list. A lot of good, qualified people discussing a topic I
truly enjoy: meteorites.
Now, I am not interested in sparring with anyone. I just published an
article in the Montreal Gazette debunking UFOs; you could substitute UFOS
for anything else in the ever widening field of pseudoscience and my
article would remain essentially the same. So anyone eager for my views
can readily look the article up.
However, my computer has recently been invaded by an avalanche of emails
from this list that has *nothing* to do with meteorites or science. The
basic problem is that pseudoscience is like a religion; no amount of
science will ever convince its proponents. So I usually don't bother;
ignorance is bliss, as they say. So those who believe in dowsing,
divining rods and whatever other contraption, feel free to search with
them. Think you can find meteorites, gold, diamonds, water, Jimmy Hoffa
with a stick ? Go for it ! That is your business; I'm just not
interested.
So, could we get back to the science of meteorites, please ?
Cheers
Andre
Message: 15
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 16:09:52 -0400
From: JoshuaTreeMuseum joshuatreemus...@embarqmail.com
Subject: [meteorite-list] Could we get back to the science of
meteorites, please ?
To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Message-ID: 764966a8adcd4a509838d10dac08a...@et
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
reply-type=original
I have an idea, instead of whining like a little school-girl about not
being
able to control the speech of others, why not just start an awesome
meteorite related thread that is so interesting it totally dominates the
conversation? Ever think of that? Or is it just more fun to whine? ;) :@
:() hey look, it's an emoticon with a mustache :{)
---
Seriously, lighten up,
Phil Whitmer
--
Message: 16
Date: 18 Oct 2010 20:05:44 UT
From: bernd.pa...@paulinet.de
Subject: [meteorite-list] Could we get back to the science of
meteorites, please ?
To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Message-ID: diie.00245...@paulinet.de
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Steve wrote: Second!
Bernd: Third! :-))
I've been spending an enjoyable evening at the microscope ogling my
NWA 5507 slice (16.39 gr - see Encyclopedia if interested). Marcin's
NWA 5507 is an interesting L3.2 with lots of spectacular features:
- clasts (or PP chondrules?) with abundant translucent, light-green
hypersthene crystals in a grayish groundmass + tiny chromites
- finely disseminated troilite
- troilite-rimmed chondrules
- complex BO-Pyroxene chondrules
- and much more!
Best wishes,
Bernd
--
Message: 17
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 20:21:43 + (UTC)
From: Jim Strope nwa...@comcast.net
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Could we get back to the science of
meteorites, please ?
To: Meteorite Central meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Message-ID:
603118548.498703.1287433303358.javamail.r...@sz0057a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Finally the voice of reason!
The volume of OT subjects on this METEORITE mailing list is the VERY
reason I check the archives instead of receiving emails.
A meteorite could have crashed through the White House and not generated
the volume of emails this OT subject has generated over the last few
days.
Jim
Hello all
Re: [meteorite-list] Could we get back to the science of meteorites, please ?
Fisher~Gold Bug-2 Darn good metal dowsing unit...Batteries not included! :-) Best Regards, Greg Hupe On Oct 18, 2010, at 2:44 PM, Charley cm...@columbus.rr.com wrote: __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Could Another Dog Have Found a Meteorite... hmmm
Take a look at this on ebay http://cgi.ebay.com/Iron-Meteorit_W0QQitemZ120536592066QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item1c108a6ec2 He says his dog found it. I don't know...? Greg S. _ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469227/direct/01/ __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Could Dogs be trained to recover meteorites?
Hi List, I wonder what triggered Hopper to pick up and move the freshly fallen Ash Creek meteorite. Was it the sound of the meteorites falling to the ground or was it the strange smell that the meteorite produced? Could a dog be trained to aid in recovering meteorites from a fresh fall? What the heck, anything is possible. I decided to give it a try with my own dog. My dog is a 16 month old German Shepherd that is worked on the average of 45 minutes a day in some aspects of his training. The majority of his training is obedience and some scent tracking etc. Once Brix has the scent of the object you can hide it or throw it and he usually finds the object within minutes. The true test would be to arrive on a fresh fall and put his nose to the test (like that's going to happen). The next best thing to use would be meteorites from a fresh fall. The only problem would be the scent from everyone that has held the meteorites. I know what you are thinking, take a couple of Ash Creek meteorites and wash them off with a little detergent and water and place them in the yard. I decided to just wipe the meteorites off and place them in the yard. This sounded like the next best thing to a fresh strewn field. The only problem was that the neighbors cat decided to run across the strewn field at the time of the test. Brix (having all of his training in obedience) decided to chase the cat . Once I finally caught Brix and he was over the excitement of chasing the cat I could retry this theory. The second test went ok, Brix was able to find the meteorites with little difficulty. You have to wonder if Brix was still picking up my scent on the meteorites or my scent walking through the yard. I will keep you posted on the results. P.S. Anyone looking to purchase some slightly used meteorites? Just kidding! Sonny www.nevadameteorites.com __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Could Dogs be trained to recover meteorites?
Hi Sonny, I think it was a German shepherd that found the fence buster meteorite at the Park Forest fall. Don't have the details of that story but you may be on to something here. Cheers, Jim Baxter - Original Message - From: wahlpe...@aol.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 10:15:06 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: [meteorite-list] Could Dogs be trained to recover meteorites? Hi List, I wonder what triggered Hopper to pick up and move the freshly fallen Ash Creek meteorite. Was it the sound of the meteorites falling to the ground or was it the strange smell that the meteorite produced? Could a dog be trained to aid in recovering meteorites from a fresh fall? What the heck, anything is possible. I decided to give it a try with my own dog. My dog is a 16 month old German Shepherd that is worked on the average of 45 minutes a day in some aspects of his training. The majority of his training is obedience and some scent tracking etc. Once Brix has the scent of the object you can hide it or throw it and he usually finds the object within minutes. The true test would be to arrive on a fresh fall and put his nose to the test (like that's going to happen). The next best thing to use would be meteorites from a fresh fall. The only problem would be the scent from everyone that has held the meteorites. I know what you are thinking, take a couple of Ash Creek meteorites and wash them off with a little detergent and water and place them in the yard. I decided to just wipe the meteorites off and place them in the yard. This sounded like the next best thing to a fresh strewn field. The only problem was that the neighbors cat decided to run across the strewn field at the time of the test. Brix (having all of his training in obedience) decided to chase the cat . Once I finally caught Brix and he was over the excitement of chasing the cat I could retry this theory. The second test went ok, Brix was able to find the meteorites with little difficulty. You have to wonder if Brix was still picking up my scent on the meteorites or my scent walking through the yard. I will keep you posted on the results. P.S. Anyone looking to purchase some slightly used meteorites? Just kidding! Sonny www.nevadameteorites.com __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Could Dogs be trained to recover meteorites?
On Sun, 30 Aug 2009 19:02:36 -0400 (EDT), you wrote: Hi Sonny, I think it was a German shepherd that found the fence buster meteorite at the Park Forest fall. Don't have the details of that story but you may be on to something here. Hm. Maybe some meteorites are actually alien civilizations attempting to communicate with what they figure is the dominant form of life on the planet-- after all, these dogs have slaves to feed them, to care for them, to cater to their every need... I'm sure they are still worrying about retrubution for The Nakhla Incedent. __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Could Life on Earth Have Come From Ceres?
http://astrobio.net/news/modules.php?op=modloadname=Newsfile=articlesid=3058mode=threadorder=0thold=0 Could Life on Earth Have Come From Ceres? Astrobiology Magazine Summary (Mar 05, 2009): The dwarf planet Ceres is rarely mentioned as a candidate for habitability, but the possible presence of an ocean and hydrothermal vents suggests it is plausible. If life developed on Ceres long ago, could it have seeded the young Earth? Could Life on Earth Have Come From Ceres? By Lee Pullen Astrobiologists hope to find life elsewhere in the universe, or possibly even in our own cosmic neighborhood, the solar system. Their efforts are usually concentrated on worlds such as the planet Mars, or icy moons like Europa. However, there are other, less conventional locations in the solar system where scientists think life may be found. Ceres: an unusual choice At the International Society for the Study of the Origin of Life conference in Florence, Italy, Joop Houtkooper from the University of Giessen divulged a theory that life could have originated on an object in the asteroid belt named Ceres Ceres was considered to be a planet when it was discovered in 1801, but it was later downgraded to asteroid status. With the latest planet definition from the International Astronomical Union, the round object is now considered a dwarf planet. Is there a chance that this exotic world is home to extraterrestrial organisms? This idea came to me when I heard a talk about all the satellites in the solar system that consist of a large part of ice, much of which is probably still in a liquid state, says Houtkooper. The total volume of all this water is something like 40 times greater than all the oceans on Earth. This reminded Houtkooper of a theory about how life originated. Organisms may have first developed around hydrothermal vents, which lie at the bottom of oceans and spew hot chemicals. Many icy bodies in our solar system have rocky cores, so they may have had or still have hydrothermal vents. Houtkooper realized, if life is not unique to the Earth and could exist elsewhere, then these icy bodies are the places where life may have originated. Looking at the evidence Early in the history of the solar system was a period known as Late Heavy Bombardment, a turbulent time when cataclysmic asteroid impacts were common. If there was life on Earth before this dangerous era, it was most likely eradicated and had to begin again after much of this cosmic debris had cleared out of the inner solar system. Interestingly, evidence indicates that Ceres avoided being pummelled by devastating impacts during this time. If it had been bombarded, it would have completely and forever lost its water mantle, as its gravitational force is too weak to recapture it. This is probably what happened to the asteroid Vesta, which has a very large impact crater and no water. The evidence points to Ceres having remained relatively unscathed during the Late Heavy Bombardment, states Houtkooper. He says this means Ceres still could have a water ocean where life could have originated early in the history of the solar system. This leads to an interesting hypothesis. If the Earth was sterilized by colossal impacts, but Ceres hosted life which survived, could the dwarf planet have reseeded our world with life, via rock fragments that chipped off Ceres and then crashed into Earth? Are all organisms on Earth, including humans, descendants of Ceres? This is an idea that Houtkooper had to pursue. I looked at the different solar system bodies which either had or currently have oceans, he explains. The planet Venus probably had an ocean early in its history, but the planet's greater mass means that more force is needed to chip off a piece of the planetary crust and propel it in the direction of the Earth. Smaller objects like Ceres have lower escape velocities, making it easier for parts of it to be separated. Houtkooper then calculated the orbital paths of candidate planets, moons and asteroids to see which were in the best positions to have pieces successfully reach the Earth, without being intercepted by other objects. Ceres fared favourably in these calculations. Life on Ceres Finally, Houtkooper considered the possibility of organisms still being present on Ceres. In the ocean, there could be life, he suggests. On the surface, it would be more difficult. But there are some possibilities. There could be hydrogen peroxide-based life, able to withstand the low temperatures. It's not currently known whether hydrogen peroxide is present on Ceres, but nothing rules it out, either. The thought of Earth being seeded with life from Ceres and creatures existing there today is certainly fascinating, but Houtkooper admits that it is more science fiction than science fact until evidence can be provided. This is naturally difficult to obtain, as Ceres is a small and distant world. Even the best current images contain very little detail, and just show that there
[meteorite-list] Could Life Have Started in a Lump of Ice?
http://www.esf.org/research-areas/physical-and-engineering-sciences/news/ext-news-singleview/article/very-cold-ice-films-in-laboratory-reveal-mysteries-of-universe-516.html Very cold ice films in laboratory reveal mysteries of universe Could life have started in a lump of ice? European Science Foundation November 5, 2008 The universe is full of water, mostly in the form of very cold ice films deposited on interstellar dust particles, but until recently little was known about the detailed small scale structure. Now the latest quick freezing techniques coupled with sophisticated scanning electron microscopy techniques, are allowing physicists to create ice films in cold conditions similar to outer space and observe the detailed molecular organisation, yielding clues to fundamental questions including possibly the origin of life. Researchers have been surprised by some of the results, not least by the sheer beauty of some of the images created, according to Julyan Cartwright, a specialist in ice structures at the Andalusian Institute for Earth Sciences (IACT) of the Spanish Research Council (CSIC) and the University of Granada in Spain. Recent discoveries about the structure of ice films in astrophysical conditions at the mesoscale, which is the size just above the molecular level, were discussed at a recent workshop organised by the European Science Foundation (ESF) and co-chaired by Cartwright alongside C. Ignacio Sainz-Diaz, also from the IACT. As Cartwright noted, many of the discoveries about ice structures at low temperatures were made possible by earlier research into industrial applications involving deposits of thin films upon an underlying substrate (ie the surface, such as a rock, to which the film is attached), such as manufacture of ceramics and semiconductors. In turn the study of ice films could lead to insights of value in such industrial applications. But the ESF workshopâs main focus was on ice in space, usually formed at temperatures far lower than even the coldest places on earth, between 3 and 90 degrees above absolute zero (3-90K). Most of the ice is on dust grains because there are so many of them, but some ice is on larger bodies such as asteroids, comets, cold moons or planets, and occasionally planets capable of supporting life such as Earth. At low temperatures, ice can form different structures at the mesoscale than under terrestrial conditions, and in some cases can be amorphous in form, that is like a glass with the molecules in effect frozen in space, rather than as crystals. For ice to be amorphous, water has to be cooled to its glass transition temperature of about 130 K without ice crystals having formed first. To do this in the laboratory requires rapid cooling, which Cartwright and colleagues achieved in their work with a helium cold finger incorporated in a scanning electron microscope to take the images. As Cartwright observed, ice can exist in a combination of crystalline and amorphous forms, in other words as a mixture of order and disorder, with many variants depending on the temperature at which freezing actually occurred. In his latest work, Cartwright and colleagues have shown that ice at the mesoscale comprises all sorts of different characteristic shapes associated with the temperature and pressure of freezing, also depending on the surface properties of the substrate. For example when formed on a titanium substrate at the very low temperature of 6K, ice has a characteristic cauliflower structure. Most intriguingly, ice under certain conditions produces biomimetic forms, meaning that they appear life like, with shapes like palm leaves or worms, or even at a smaller scale like bacteria. This led Cartwright to point out that researchers should not assume that lifelike forms in objects obtained from space, like Mars rock, is evidence that life actually existed there. If one goes to another planet and sees small wormlike or palm like structures, one should not immediately call a press conference announcing alien life has been found, said Cartwright. On the other hand the existence of lifelike biomimetic structures in ice suggests that nature may well have copied physics. It is even possible that while ice is too cold to support most life as we know it, it may have provided a suitable internal environment for prebiotic life to have emerged. It is clear that biology does use physics, said Cartwright. Indeed, how could it not do? So we shouldn't be surprised to see that sometimes biological structures clearly make use of simple physical principles. Then, going back in time, it seems reasonable to posit that when life first emerged, it would have been using as a container something much simpler than today's cell membrane, probably some sort of simple vesicle of the sort found in soap bubbles. This sort of vesicle can be found in abiotic systems today, both in hot conditions, in the chemistry associated with 'black smokers' on the sea floor, which is
[meteorite-list] Could meteorite discovery weaken dark energy's case?
http://space.newscientist.com/article/dn13392-could-meteorite-discovery-weaken-dark-energys-case.html Could meteorite discovery weaken dark energy's case? 19:00 28 February 2008 NewScientist.com news service Stephen Battersby Whiskers of carbon found in ancient meteorites could hold clues to the earliest days of the solar system. More controversially, they might cast a shadow over the concept of dark energy, the unknown force that seems to be accelerating the expansion of the universe. Graphite whiskers are rolled-up sheets of carbon atoms. The needle-like structures have been created under high-temperature conditions in the lab but have never previously been detected in space. Still, astronomers had postulated that they form in the heat of supernova explosions and around young stars. Now, Marc Fries and Andrew Steele of the Carnegie Institution of Washington in the US, have found graphite whiskers in three carbonaceous chondrite meteorites, which contain some of the oldest material in the solar system. They studied dark patches in the meteorites using a technique called Raman spectroscopy, which shines a laser on a material to make it emit infrared light. The distinctive infrared spectral fingerprint produced is a signature of the molecular structure of a graphite whisker, which resembles a tiny, rolled-up poster, says Fries. In the meteorites, the whiskers occur in and around mineral fragments called calcium-aluminium-rich inclusions. CAIs, as they are called, are thought to have been among the first solid objects in the solar system, condensing about 4.5 billion years ago, so the whiskers were probably forged around the same time. Scientists still don't know exactly what was going on in the solar system at the time, or what produced the high temperatures necessary to create these materials. It's a portion of the history of our solar system we don't have a really good handle on, Fries told New Scientist. Distinctive spectrum That is where whiskers could help. Because they have such a distinctive spectrum, astronomers might be able to detect them around young stars in our galaxy, which would then give us a picture of what our solar system looked like at the time. That could give scientists some clues about how the first rocky fragments formed around the Sun, and how they eventually grew into planets. Fries and Steele also suggest that these whiskers might have been pumped out into deep space by the solar wind, and that the combined whisker output of many young stars might have filled interstellar space with whiskers. If so, they might have some relevance to dark energy. The unexpected dimness of distant supernova explosions at infrared wavelengths was what first led astronomers to the conclusion that the expansion of the universe is accelerating, and the proposal that some form of dark energy is to blame. Some astronomers, however, suggested that the size and special geometry of graphite whiskers might be the cause of this dimness, absorbing light from distant supernovae at the key infrared wavelengths (between 3 and 9 microns). Now that Fries and Steele have shown that these whiskers are indeed created in space, could they pose problems for the dark energy hypothesis? 'Immense extrapolation' Not according to Adam Riess of the Space Telescope Science Institute in Baltimore, Maryland, US. This is an immense extrapolation, says Riess, one of the co-discoverers of the accelerated expansion. Seeing a few whiskers in a meteor means they fill interstellar space blocking 25% of all the light we see? That's quite a stretch. He adds that the dimming goes away as astronomers look back to the most ancient supernovae. That fits the dark energy picture because in those early days it had much less effect on the universe. If dimming is caused by whiskers, it's harder to explain. Where did the whiskers go? says Riess. Finally, he points out that there are now several independent lines of evidence that point to dark energy, all agreeing with the supernova data. There are other indicators of dark energy, no doubt about that, admits Steele. But the supernova observations were the first. Now we've seen whiskers, there's no harm in looking to see if they have an effect [on dark energy]. __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Could Archaeologist be related to StarchaserMeteorites?
Ok, the story behind this... There's this wacked out guy who digs things out of his backyard and sends the stuff he finds to the Smithsonian Institute, labelling them with scientific names, insisting that they are actual archeological finds. The really weird thing about these letters is that this guy really exists! Anyway... here's a letter from the Smithsonian Institute after he sent them a Barbie doll head. Paleoanthropology Division Smithsonian Institute 207 Pennsylvania Avenue Washington, DC 20078 Dear Sir: Thank you for your latest submission to the Institute, labeled 211-D, layer seven, next to the clothesline post. Hominid skull. We have given this specimen a careful and detailed examination, and regret to inform you that we disagree with your theory that it represents conclusive proof of the presence of Early Man in Charleston County two million years ago. Rather, it appears that what you have found is the head of a Barbie doll, of the variety one of our staff, who has small children, believes to be the Malibu Barbie. It is evident that you have given a great deal of thought to the analysis of this specimen, and you may be quite certain that those of us who are familiar with your prior work in the field were loathe to come to contradiction with your findings. However, we do feel that there are a number of physical attributes of the specimen which might have tipped you off to it's modern origin: 1. The material is molded plastic. Ancient hominid remains are typically fossilized bone. 2. The cranial capacity of the specimen is approximately 9 cubic centimeters, well below the threshold of even the earliest identified proto-hominids. 3. The dentition pattern evident on the skull is more consistent with the common domesticated dog than it is with the ravenous man-eating Pliocene clams you speculate roamed the wetlands during that time. This latter finding is certainly one of the most intriguing hypotheses you have submitted in your history with this institution, but the evidence seems to weigh rather heavily against it. Without going into too much detail, let us say that: A. The specimen looks like the head of a Barbie doll that a dog has chewed on. B. Clams don't have teeth. It is with feelings tinged with melancholy that we must deny your request to have the specimen carbon dated. This is partially due to the heavy load our lab must bear in it's normal operation, and partly due to carbon dating's notorious inaccuracy in fossils of recent geologic record. To the best of our knowledge, no Barbie dolls were produced prior to 1956 AD, and carbon dating is likely to produce wildly inaccurate results. Sadly, we must also deny your request that we approach the National Science Foundation's Phylogeny Department with the concept of assigning your specimen the scientific name Australopithecus spiff-arino. Speaking personally, I, for one, fought tenaciously for the acceptance of your proposed taxonomy, but was ultimately voted down because the species name you selected was hyphenated, and didn't really sound like it might be Latin. However, we gladly accept your generous donation of this fascinating specimen to the museum. While it is undoubtedly not a hominid fossil, it is, nonetheless, yet another riveting example of the great body of work you seem to accumulate here so effortlessly. You should know that our Director has reserved a special shelf in his own office for the display of the specimens you have previously submitted to the Institution, and the entire staff speculates daily on what you will happen upon next in your digs at the site you have discovered in your back yard. We eagerly anticipate your trip to our nation's capital that you proposed in your last letter, and several of us are pressing the Director to pay for it. We are particularly interested in hearing you expand on your theories surrounding the trans-positating fillifitation of ferrous ions in a structural matrix that makes the excellent juvenile Tyrannosaurus rex femur you recently discovered take on the deceptive appearance of a rusty 9-mm Sears Craftsman automotive crescent wrench. Yours in Science, Harvey Rowe Curator, Antiquities __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Could Archaeologist be related to StarchaserMeteorites?
On Wed, 31 Oct 2007 09:16:52 -0700, you wrote: Ok, the story behind this... There's this wacked out guy who digs things out of his backyard and sends the stuff he finds to the Smithsonian Institute, labelling them with scientific names, insisting that they are actual archeological finds. The really weird thing about these letters is that this guy really exists! Anyway... here's a letter from the Smithsonian Institute after he sent them a Barbie doll head. http://www.snopes.com/humor/letters/smithsonian.asp __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Could Archaeologist be related to StarchaserMeteorites?
That letter was never written and is what is called an urban legend. Like the scuba divers in the forest, crapping elephant death and solid rocket powered car in the desert these are among the most popular urban legends. Top overall to urban legend is this one: http://darwinawards.com/legends/legends1998-16.html The smithsonian has not been responding to nutcases with those letters. That story is one of the oldest and has been around since the beginning of the internet (More than 10 years). You have been taken in by accepting an urban legend as fact. Sincerely DEAN --- Darren Garrison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, 31 Oct 2007 09:16:52 -0700, you wrote: Ok, the story behind this... There's this wacked out guy who digs things out of his backyard and sends the stuff he finds to the Smithsonian Institute, labelling them with scientific names, insisting that they are actual archeological finds. The really weird thing about these letters is that this guy really exists! Anyway... here's a letter from the Smithsonian Institute after he sent them a Barbie doll head. http://www.snopes.com/humor/letters/smithsonian.asp __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Could Archaeologist be related to StarchaserMeteorites?
Yes, I know it's an urban legend, believe me, I subscribe to Snopes. That said, it is a well crafted bit of fiction and there are humorous parallels to the Starchaser with the exception that Starchaser seeks cash, not fame. Erich Kern - Original Message - From: JKGwilliam [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: dean bessey [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Erich Kern [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2007 12:33 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Could Archaeologist be related to StarchaserMeteorites? In addition to what Dean has just said, this story about the Barbie Doll head has appeared on this list several times over the past 8 or 9 years. And, in every circumstance, someone stepped forward to expose it for what it really was, and still is, a fraud. Take some time and visit the link Dean provided and you will find some very humorous stories. Remember that's what they really are, just stories. Human beings can be so gullible - I suppose that's how these urban legends get passed around so quickly. John At 11:30 AM 10/31/2007, dean bessey wrote: That letter was never written and is what is called an urban legend. Like the scuba divers in the forest, crapping elephant death and solid rocket powered car in the desert these are among the most popular urban legends. Top overall to urban legend is this one: http://darwinawards.com/legends/legends1998-16.html The smithsonian has not been responding to nutcases with those letters. That story is one of the oldest and has been around since the beginning of the internet (More than 10 years). You have been taken in by accepting an urban legend as fact. Sincerely DEAN __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Could Archaeologist be related toStarchaserMeteorites?
Hi, parallels to the Starchaser... Yes, both Starchaser and Australopithicus spifferino have a cranial capacity of 9 cc. Where's a predatory Pliocene clam when you need one? Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: Erich Kern [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: dean bessey [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; JKGwilliam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2007 5:46 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Could Archaeologist be related toStarchaserMeteorites? Yes, I know it's an urban legend, believe me, I subscribe to Snopes. That said, it is a well crafted bit of fiction and there are humorous parallels to the Starchaser with the exception that Starchaser seeks cash, not fame. Erich Kern - Original Message - From: JKGwilliam [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: dean bessey [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Erich Kern [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2007 12:33 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Could Archaeologist be related to StarchaserMeteorites? In addition to what Dean has just said, this story about the Barbie Doll head has appeared on this list several times over the past 8 or 9 years. And, in every circumstance, someone stepped forward to expose it for what it really was, and still is, a fraud. Take some time and visit the link Dean provided and you will find some very humorous stories. Remember that's what they really are, just stories. Human beings can be so gullible - I suppose that's how these urban legends get passed around so quickly. John At 11:30 AM 10/31/2007, dean bessey wrote: That letter was never written and is what is called an urban legend. Like the scuba divers in the forest, crapping elephant death and solid rocket powered car in the desert these are among the most popular urban legends. Top overall to urban legend is this one: http://darwinawards.com/legends/legends1998-16.html The smithsonian has not been responding to nutcases with those letters. That story is one of the oldest and has been around since the beginning of the internet (More than 10 years). You have been taken in by accepting an urban legend as fact. Sincerely DEAN __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Could be some good things here
http://www.star-telegram.com/408/story/122237.html The important part (from at the bottom) News and notes: Many of you have asked me how Jack Van Hauen of Auction Depot is doing, and I'm happy to report that he has finished his chemo treatments and is recovering. Hopefully, he'll be back up there barking orders in no time ... Alan Jones' monstrous Brit-USA auction is happening Friday at his Antique Auction Center, at 2470 N.W. Dallas St. in Grand Prairie. Jones always gets good stuff, but his Brit-USA auctions are good-stuff blowouts; these auctions usually break me ... Keep an eye on Ransberger's Web site, www.ransberger.com, for information on their next daylong auction; the Ransbergers just scored a Hickory, N.C., estate jammed with Victorian furniture, some great glassware and, of all things, meteorites. The auction is scheduled for June 23. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Could Venus Watch For Earth-Bound Asteroids?
Hi Larry, all - I will be reading Don and Lindley's report today. Don has always spent the publics' money wisely, so it will be interesting to see his reasoning for this detector. The Russians proposed telescopes in Earth orbit, one leading the Earth, another following. Asd you point out, heat in Venus orbit is a real problem. The Moon would make a great cooling sink for IR detectors, and there is a convenient site in the current proposal which could be used. Detection radars on the Moon could also be used for SETI. Assuming that the collisions with fragments of Comet Encke over tha lawt 10,000 years are the norm, and not a one off, then the way to go is with a Moon based lidar system with a 1 AU detection radius. That's where China is heading. with this bum left hamd, I have really got to get a spell checker - sorry for the typos. Ed E.P. Grondine Man and Impact in the Americas --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello List: I have observer a few asteroids in my life and have some problems with this article. I am away from home, so I am going mostly on memory and so these are only estimates; 1. If you are to put a telescope at the orbit of Venus, it would have to be in the same orbit as Venus, but not near Venus. If you are planning to observe in the infrared, you would want a Spitzer-type telescope. The Earth is hot and Venus would be hotter (so is the Sun)! Spitzer has a lifetime of about 5 years thanks to shielding from the Sun and Earth. I am not sure how much more of a problem there would be at the distance of Venus. HST with it CCDs is much easier to cool so does not have the limits of an infrared telescope. 2. Yes, asteroids are brighter in the infrared: but this is sunlight absorbed and re-emitted (heat). So, yes, you could observe asteroids at these wavelengths, but as stated about would need a cooled telescope. 3. While the idea of an asteroid coming at us out of the sunlight (worked in war movies), statistically, there are fewer of these asteroid (at least known). There are over 2000 known Apollo asteroids (cross Earth orbit, but mean solar distance greater than Earth's) and less than 400 Aten asteroids (cross Earth's orbit, but mean distance less than Earth's). There are known known asteroids with orbits wholly within Earth's orbit (at least none discovered). So, there are more things coming in from outside in than inside out. Yes, it would be better to look from closer to the Sun, but would have the bigger, brighter, hotter Sun to deal with (visible or infrared). 4. You would also be better off with more than one telescope. There is always the chance that the asteroid with our name on it would hit us at its first close pass (might not be able to do anything about it). But if that is so, you would want a telescope that is looking in the direction of the Earth at any given time. 5. Now, something that I just thought about that I cannot calculate here in my hotel room (in Disney World). How many asteroids have perihelion (closest distance to the Sun) that get anywhere near Venus? Most near Earth asteroids (NEOs) can only be detected when they are close to Earth (they are very small). These may never be detected from far away Venus. That is all I can think of at the moment. Larry -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im Auftrag von Ron Baalke Gesendet: Freitag, 9. März 2007 22:50 An: Meteorite Mailing List Betreff: [meteorite-list] Could Venus Watch For Earth-Bound Asteroids? http://space.newscientist.com/article/dn11356-could-venus-watch-for-earth bou nd-asteroids.html Could Venus watch for Earth-bound asteroids? David L Chandler New Scientist 09 March 2007 A dedicated space-based telescope is needed to achieve a congressionally mandated goal of discovering 90% of all near-Earth asteroids down to a size of 140 metres by the year 2020, says a report NASA sent to the US Congress on Thursday. Asteroids of that size are large enough to destroy a major city or region if they strike the planet - but NASA says it does not have the money to pay for the project. The study says Venus is the best place for the telescope. That is because space rocks within Earth's orbit - where Venus lies - are most likely to be lost in the Sun's glare, potentially catching astronomers off guard. The telescope could be placed either behind or ahead of Venus in its orbit by about 60° - the stable Lagrange points, known as L4 or L5, where the gravity of the Sun and Venus are in balance. There are quite a few [objects] that are interior to Earth's orbit, NASA's Lindley Johnson told New Scientist. Those are really hard to detect [from Earth]; the opportunities to see them are very limited. From the orbit of Venus, however, you're always looking away from the Sun, always looking out, he says
Re: [meteorite-list] Could Venus Watch For Earth-Bound Asteroids?
Hello List: I have observer a few asteroids in my life and have some problems with this article. I am away from home, so I am going mostly on memory and so these are only estimates; 1. If you are to put a telescope at the orbit of Venus, it would have to be in the same orbit as Venus, but not near Venus. If you are planning to observe in the infrared, you would want a Spitzer-type telescope. The Earth is hot and Venus would be hotter (so is the Sun)! Spitzer has a lifetime of about 5 years thanks to shielding from the Sun and Earth. I am not sure how much more of a problem there would be at the distance of Venus. HST with it CCDs is much easier to cool so does not have the limits of an infrared telescope. 2. Yes, asteroids are brighter in the infrared: but this is sunlight absorbed and re-emitted (heat). So, yes, you could observe asteroids at these wavelengths, but as stated about would need a cooled telescope. 3. While the idea of an asteroid coming at us out of the sunlight (worked in war movies), statistically, there are fewer of these asteroid (at least known). There are over 2000 known Apollo asteroids (cross Earth orbit, but mean solar distance greater than Earth's) and less than 400 Aten asteroids (cross Earth's orbit, but mean distance less than Earth's). There are known known asteroids with orbits wholly within Earth's orbit (at least none discovered). So, there are more things coming in from outside in than inside out. Yes, it would be better to look from closer to the Sun, but would have the bigger, brighter, hotter Sun to deal with (visible or infrared). 4. You would also be better off with more than one telescope. There is always the chance that the asteroid with our name on it would hit us at its first close pass (might not be able to do anything about it). But if that is so, you would want a telescope that is looking in the direction of the Earth at any given time. 5. Now, something that I just thought about that I cannot calculate here in my hotel room (in Disney World). How many asteroids have perihelion (closest distance to the Sun) that get anywhere near Venus? Most near Earth asteroids (NEOs) can only be detected when they are close to Earth (they are very small). These may never be detected from far away Venus. That is all I can think of at the moment. Larry -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im Auftrag von Ron Baalke Gesendet: Freitag, 9. März 2007 22:50 An: Meteorite Mailing List Betreff: [meteorite-list] Could Venus Watch For Earth-Bound Asteroids? http://space.newscientist.com/article/dn11356-could-venus-watch-for-earth bou nd-asteroids.html Could Venus watch for Earth-bound asteroids? David L Chandler New Scientist 09 March 2007 A dedicated space-based telescope is needed to achieve a congressionally mandated goal of discovering 90% of all near-Earth asteroids down to a size of 140 metres by the year 2020, says a report NASA sent to the US Congress on Thursday. Asteroids of that size are large enough to destroy a major city or region if they strike the planet - but NASA says it does not have the money to pay for the project. The study says Venus is the best place for the telescope. That is because space rocks within Earth's orbit - where Venus lies - are most likely to be lost in the Sun's glare, potentially catching astronomers off guard. The telescope could be placed either behind or ahead of Venus in its orbit by about 60° - the stable Lagrange points, known as L4 or L5, where the gravity of the Sun and Venus are in balance. There are quite a few [objects] that are interior to Earth's orbit, NASA's Lindley Johnson told New Scientist. Those are really hard to detect [from Earth]; the opportunities to see them are very limited. From the orbit of Venus, however, you're always looking away from the Sun, always looking out, he says. And, of course, you can observe 24 hours a day - you don't have to worry about night and day. Even from Earth orbit, a telescope's view of any given part of the sky is blocked about half the time by the Earth itself. In addition, because Venus orbits the Sun in about two-thirds the time the Earth does, a telescope in that orbit would catch up with any near-Earth asteroids in their orbits more frequently than Earth does, offering more opportunities for discovery. You're able to sample that population more rapidly in the same amount of time, Johnson says. Missed deadline An infrared telescope would be more effective than one that studies visible light, because asteroids reflect sunlight more strongly at infrared wavelengths. The background sky is also much less bright in the infrared, providing better contrast for discovering even small, faint asteroids. With the Venus-orbit IR telescope, NASA could exceed its goal by three years, finding 90% of the most dangerous space rocks by 2017. But the space telescope is estimated to cost $1.1
Re: [meteorite-list] Could Venus Watch For Earth-Bound Asteroids?
But the space telescope is estimated to cost $1.1 billion for 15 years of operation Hmm, what does cost a F-22 and a B2 Spirit? -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im Auftrag von Ron Baalke Gesendet: Freitag, 9. März 2007 22:50 An: Meteorite Mailing List Betreff: [meteorite-list] Could Venus Watch For Earth-Bound Asteroids? http://space.newscientist.com/article/dn11356-could-venus-watch-for-earthbou nd-asteroids.html Could Venus watch for Earth-bound asteroids? David L Chandler New Scientist 09 March 2007 A dedicated space-based telescope is needed to achieve a congressionally mandated goal of discovering 90% of all near-Earth asteroids down to a size of 140 metres by the year 2020, says a report NASA sent to the US Congress on Thursday. Asteroids of that size are large enough to destroy a major city or region if they strike the planet - but NASA says it does not have the money to pay for the project. The study says Venus is the best place for the telescope. That is because space rocks within Earth's orbit - where Venus lies - are most likely to be lost in the Sun's glare, potentially catching astronomers off guard. The telescope could be placed either behind or ahead of Venus in its orbit by about 60° - the stable Lagrange points, known as L4 or L5, where the gravity of the Sun and Venus are in balance. There are quite a few [objects] that are interior to Earth's orbit, NASA's Lindley Johnson told New Scientist. Those are really hard to detect [from Earth]; the opportunities to see them are very limited. From the orbit of Venus, however, you're always looking away from the Sun, always looking out, he says. And, of course, you can observe 24 hours a day - you don't have to worry about night and day. Even from Earth orbit, a telescope's view of any given part of the sky is blocked about half the time by the Earth itself. In addition, because Venus orbits the Sun in about two-thirds the time the Earth does, a telescope in that orbit would catch up with any near-Earth asteroids in their orbits more frequently than Earth does, offering more opportunities for discovery. You're able to sample that population more rapidly in the same amount of time, Johnson says. Missed deadline An infrared telescope would be more effective than one that studies visible light, because asteroids reflect sunlight more strongly at infrared wavelengths. The background sky is also much less bright in the infrared, providing better contrast for discovering even small, faint asteroids. With the Venus-orbit IR telescope, NASA could exceed its goal by three years, finding 90% of the most dangerous space rocks by 2017. But the space telescope is estimated to cost $1.1 billion for 15 years of operation, and NASA says there is currently no money in its budget to pursue any of the search proposals it studied. That means it would take until at least 2026 to achieve its goal - and that is assuming a large telescope in Chile called the LSST (Large Synoptic Survey Telescope) is completed. But the LSST, which would be funded through the National Science Foundation, itself has not had final approval (see Unique wide-field telescope will make 'sky movies' http://space.newscientist.com/article/dn9200-unique-widefield-telescope-wil l-make-sky-movies.html). Without the LSST, as well, the goal would slip beyond 2030. Former Apollo astronaut Rusty Schweickart says NASA's analysis was a good examination of the options, and showed that the space option ... is most effective in dealing with the danger of an unexpected impact. But Schweickart says NASA failed to deliver on an additional analysis that Congress had asked for, which included an examination of the relative merits of different proposals for deflecting an asteroid found to be on a collision course with Earth. [NASA] did nothing, they declined to respond. That's pretty disappointing, Schweickart told New Scientist. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Could Venus Watch For Earth-Bound Asteroids?
Hi, Martin! The cost of a series production item includes on the cost of development and depends on how many copies you have made. Based on the current planned production of F-22 Raptors, the cost is $380 to $390 million apiece. Had the originally planned number of planes been built the cost would have been about $130 million each. However, it's never that simple. The follow-on F-35 Lightning II will use much of the technology developed for the F-22, but the F-35 will have a much lower cost per plane than the F-22 could ever have. Without that technological development, the cost of the F-35 would be much greater. The B-2 Spirit, built in the numbers presently contemplated, will cost $2,200 million per copy! Again, and to an even greater degree, the cost of developing the technology in the first is staggering. The actual material and man-hour manufacturing cost of building one B-2 bomber is about $120 million, one heck of a bargain. Conceived of in the 1970's, developed in the 1980's, then completely re-designed to change it from a high altitude penetrating bomber to a low altitude penetrating bomber (will you make up your mind?), it was first displayed about the instant the Cold War sublimated Instead of the 136 that were planned, even without a Cold War, we decided to settle for 75 and more recently our Defender and Decider, Mr. Bush, decided that twenty were plenty, which raises the cost/plane to about $2.2 billion a bump. It is now said to be fully operational, but I cannot find out exactly how many planes have been built. (Why are you following me and where is your warrant?) However, you may live to see more B-2's or at least B-2-lookalikes, as the design engineer in charge of the propulsion system was arrested on October 2005 for selling classified information to China and possibly other countries as well. Those B-2 copies would cost considerably less, I imagine, and have a different in-flight menu. So, one B-2 equals TWO space telescopes, but it takes about three F-22's to pay for one space telescope. Of course, IF the B-2 could fly to and destroy an incoming asteroid, it would be worth $22 billion, or $22 trillion --- name your price. Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: Martin Altmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 6:31 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Could Venus Watch For Earth-Bound Asteroids? But the space telescope is estimated to cost $1.1 billion for 15 years of operation Hmm, what does cost a F-22 and a B2 Spirit? -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im Auftrag von Ron Baalke Gesendet: Freitag, 9. März 2007 22:50 An: Meteorite Mailing List Betreff: [meteorite-list] Could Venus Watch For Earth-Bound Asteroids? http://space.newscientist.com/article/dn11356-could-venus-watch-for-earthbou nd-asteroids.html Could Venus watch for Earth-bound asteroids? David L Chandler New Scientist 09 March 2007 A dedicated space-based telescope is needed to achieve a congressionally mandated goal of discovering 90% of all near-Earth asteroids down to a size of 140 metres by the year 2020, says a report NASA sent to the US Congress on Thursday. Asteroids of that size are large enough to destroy a major city or region if they strike the planet - but NASA says it does not have the money to pay for the project. The study says Venus is the best place for the telescope. That is because space rocks within Earth's orbit - where Venus lies - are most likely to be lost in the Sun's glare, potentially catching astronomers off guard. The telescope could be placed either behind or ahead of Venus in its orbit by about 60° - the stable Lagrange points, known as L4 or L5, where the gravity of the Sun and Venus are in balance. There are quite a few [objects] that are interior to Earth's orbit, NASA's Lindley Johnson told New Scientist. Those are really hard to detect [from Earth]; the opportunities to see them are very limited. From the orbit of Venus, however, you're always looking away from the Sun, always looking out, he says. And, of course, you can observe 24 hours a day - you don't have to worry about night and day. Even from Earth orbit, a telescope's view of any given part of the sky is blocked about half the time by the Earth itself. In addition, because Venus orbits the Sun in about two-thirds the time the Earth does, a telescope in that orbit would catch up with any near-Earth asteroids in their orbits more frequently than Earth does, offering more opportunities for discovery. You're able to sample that population more rapidly in the same amount of time, Johnson says. Missed deadline An infrared telescope would be more effective than one that studies visible light, because asteroids reflect sunlight more strongly at infrared wavelengths. The background sky is also much less bright
[meteorite-list] Could Venus Watch For Earth-Bound Asteroids?
http://space.newscientist.com/article/dn11356-could-venus-watch-for-earthbound-asteroids.html Could Venus watch for Earth-bound asteroids? David L Chandler New Scientist 09 March 2007 A dedicated space-based telescope is needed to achieve a congressionally mandated goal of discovering 90% of all near-Earth asteroids down to a size of 140 metres by the year 2020, says a report NASA sent to the US Congress on Thursday. Asteroids of that size are large enough to destroy a major city or region if they strike the planet - but NASA says it does not have the money to pay for the project. The study says Venus is the best place for the telescope. That is because space rocks within Earth's orbit - where Venus lies - are most likely to be lost in the Sun's glare, potentially catching astronomers off guard. The telescope could be placed either behind or ahead of Venus in its orbit by about 60° - the stable Lagrange points, known as L4 or L5, where the gravity of the Sun and Venus are in balance. There are quite a few [objects] that are interior to Earth's orbit, NASA's Lindley Johnson told New Scientist. Those are really hard to detect [from Earth]; the opportunities to see them are very limited. From the orbit of Venus, however, you're always looking away from the Sun, always looking out, he says. And, of course, you can observe 24 hours a day - you don't have to worry about night and day. Even from Earth orbit, a telescope's view of any given part of the sky is blocked about half the time by the Earth itself. In addition, because Venus orbits the Sun in about two-thirds the time the Earth does, a telescope in that orbit would catch up with any near-Earth asteroids in their orbits more frequently than Earth does, offering more opportunities for discovery. You're able to sample that population more rapidly in the same amount of time, Johnson says. Missed deadline An infrared telescope would be more effective than one that studies visible light, because asteroids reflect sunlight more strongly at infrared wavelengths. The background sky is also much less bright in the infrared, providing better contrast for discovering even small, faint asteroids. With the Venus-orbit IR telescope, NASA could exceed its goal by three years, finding 90% of the most dangerous space rocks by 2017. But the space telescope is estimated to cost $1.1 billion for 15 years of operation, and NASA says there is currently no money in its budget to pursue any of the search proposals it studied. That means it would take until at least 2026 to achieve its goal - and that is assuming a large telescope in Chile called the LSST (Large Synoptic Survey Telescope) is completed. But the LSST, which would be funded through the National Science Foundation, itself has not had final approval (see Unique wide-field telescope will make 'sky movies' http://space.newscientist.com/article/dn9200-unique-widefield-telescope-will-make-sky-movies.html). Without the LSST, as well, the goal would slip beyond 2030. Former Apollo astronaut Rusty Schweickart says NASA's analysis was a good examination of the options, and showed that the space option ... is most effective in dealing with the danger of an unexpected impact. But Schweickart says NASA failed to deliver on an additional analysis that Congress had asked for, which included an examination of the relative merits of different proposals for deflecting an asteroid found to be on a collision course with Earth. [NASA] did nothing, they declined to respond. That's pretty disappointing, Schweickart told New Scientist. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] could it be?
Phil, I hate to say this, but it looks like a furnace clinker to me... Here's a pic of an EL3 slice under a scope. http://www.meteorite-dealers.com/images/el3-microscope1.jpg Gary Hello everyone, I found something that could be interesting in a batch of NWAs. I thought it might be an EL3 since I'm pretty sure there were a couple of those as well, but ground down and edge and I don't think so... I know we can only speculate based on photos but it's got to be at least as fun as speculating about flat pieces of iron flying through windows ;-) So, think it's meteoritic? http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c57/pkmorgan/postingpics/wha t.jpg Here is the whole thing. It's not very big, should I pursue it? http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c57/pkmorgan/EL3/EL3macro.jp g And here is what those shiny areas look like up close: http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c57/pkmorgan/EL3/EL3a.jpg http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c57/pkmorgan/EL3/EL3b.jpg Regards, Phil __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] could it be?
Lol, Furnace clinker. I haven't heard that expression in a long time. I used to sell clinker grabbers and I think I still have a few in reserve. Not much call for them these days. Not very many coal fired homes or businesses here anymore. People used to buy them as grab alls but they are heavier. I never thought about clinkers as possible wrongs. I can see it. Bill -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 08:26:48 -0500 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] could it be? Phil, I hate to say this, but it looks like a furnace clinker to me... Here's a pic of an EL3 slice under a scope. http://www.meteorite-dealers.com/images/el3-microscope1.jpg Gary Hello everyone, I found something that could be interesting in a batch of NWAs. I thought it might be an EL3 since I'm pretty sure there were a couple of those as well, but ground down and edge and I don't think so... I know we can only speculate based on photos but it's got to be at least as fun as speculating about flat pieces of iron flying through windows ;-) So, think it's meteoritic? http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c57/pkmorgan/postingpics/wha t.jpg Here is the whole thing. It's not very big, should I pursue it? http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c57/pkmorgan/EL3/EL3macro.jp g And here is what those shiny areas look like up close: http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c57/pkmorgan/EL3/EL3a.jpg http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c57/pkmorgan/EL3/EL3b.jpg Regards, Phil __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] could it be?
Hello everyone, I found something that could be interesting in a batch of NWAs. I thought it might be an EL3 since I'm pretty sure there were a couple of those as well, but ground down and edge and I don't think so... I know we can only speculate based on photos but it's got to be at least as fun as speculating about flat pieces of iron flying through windows ;-) So, think it's meteoritic? http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c57/pkmorgan/postingpics/what.jpg Here is the whole thing. It's not very big, should I pursue it? http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c57/pkmorgan/EL3/EL3macro.jpg And here is what those shiny areas look like up close: http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c57/pkmorgan/EL3/EL3a.jpg http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c57/pkmorgan/EL3/EL3b.jpg Regards, Phil __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Could it be....
If someone else hasn't mentioned it yet ( I don't read every email in all threads), Frank Stroik was the author of a small spiral bound, and very informative booklet, Meteorites: Fundamental Properties and Process which he published in April of 1999. Too bad he's off the List, he was a great contributor. Best, John Gwilliam At 03:52 PM 1/24/2007, Dave Freeman mjwy wrote: Frank at that time was at U of Wyoming and was in the process of cataloguing an abandon pile of miss labeled meteorites that didn't fit in with the museum dedicated to dinosaurs.m I miss Frank! Dave F. Frank and earnest [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Eric Hutton wrote: My earliest email I have saved is from 10th May 1997 Hello Eric, Alex, and List, The earliest email I have saved is from Thu, 20 Mar 1997 and it was written by no less a person than Frank ... Frank Stroik for those who still remember him. Time really flies fast and while some list members are still here, others have left us, ... some for good. Who still remembers good, ole Jim? Jim Hurley, the arachnaut! The last I ever heard from him was a mail he sent me Thu, 08 Nov 2001 and, unfortunately, he did not sound very optimistic: Hello Bernd,...yes, I still lurk. I have become a starving artist, so I no longer can afford my web sites, let alone meteorites. Best wishes to All of Us and THANKS A LOT to Art! Bernd __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Could it be....
Yes, Frank was. I just found on my hard drive an HTML document titled Questions About Triolite Inclusions CAIs in Gibeon Allende Meteorites that was written by Frank. For some reason I associate this with Michael Blood's website. Maybe Michael hosted it. OTOH, I seem to remember that some list members were upset because they reportedly paid in advance for a never published book that Frank was writing. -Walter Branch - Original Message - From: JKGwilliam [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Dave Freeman mjwy [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 6:51 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Could it be If someone else hasn't mentioned it yet ( I don't read every email in all threads), Frank Stroik was the author of a small spiral bound, and very informative booklet, Meteorites: Fundamental Properties and Process which he published in April of 1999. Too bad he's off the List, he was a great contributor. Best, John Gwilliam At 03:52 PM 1/24/2007, Dave Freeman mjwy wrote: Frank at that time was at U of Wyoming and was in the process of cataloguing an abandon pile of miss labeled meteorites that didn't fit in with the museum dedicated to dinosaurs.m I miss Frank! Dave F. Frank and earnest [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Eric Hutton wrote: My earliest email I have saved is from 10th May 1997 Hello Eric, Alex, and List, The earliest email I have saved is from Thu, 20 Mar 1997 and it was written by no less a person than Frank ... Frank Stroik for those who still remember him. Time really flies fast and while some list members are still here, others have left us, ... some for good. Who still remembers good, ole Jim? Jim Hurley, the arachnaut! The last I ever heard from him was a mail he sent me Thu, 08 Nov 2001 and, unfortunately, he did not sound very optimistic: Hello Bernd,...yes, I still lurk. I have become a starving artist, so I no longer can afford my web sites, let alone meteorites. Best wishes to All of Us and THANKS A LOT to Art! Bernd __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Could it be....
...that this, our METEORITECENTRAL list, is now slowly approaching it´s tenth year of existence? Art Jones, where art thou? Is there some truth to my sudden thought about this very list´s age? I have been one of the first members, and after my initial subscription here, often changed my internet provider, and as I am rather lazy than busy in some respects, I haven´t kept track of the exact timeline records, which now adds to my confusion of history facts. But anyway I somehow have the feeling that Art´s list might possibly approach 10 years of existence. Or am I completely wrong? Other oldtimers like Bernd or perhaps Cap´n Blood or other oldies-but-goodies may contribute more on this point... Hi Art - great job, still well and alive after all those years! Give him a hand up, folks! Alex Berlin/Germany __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Could it be....
My earliest email I have saved is from 10th May 1997, amazing that I am still using the same personal email address!. Within the header of the email it says...archive/latest/325 this number seems to increment on later emails, so is the email I have the 325th posted to the list. It would be interesting to see the first few if anyone has copies. Eric Hutton. - Original Message - From: Alexander Seidel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 6:38 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Could it be ...that this, our METEORITECENTRAL list, is now slowly approaching it´s tenth year of existence? Art Jones, where art thou? Is there some truth to my sudden thought about this very list´s age? I have been one of the first members, and after my initial subscription here, often changed my internet provider, and as I am rather lazy than busy in some respects, I haven´t kept track of the exact timeline records, which now adds to my confusion of history facts. But anyway I somehow have the feeling that Art´s list might possibly approach 10 years of existence. Or am I completely wrong? Other oldtimers like Bernd or perhaps Cap´n Blood or other oldies-but-goodies may contribute more on this point... Hi Art - great job, still well and alive after all those years! Give him a hand up, folks! Alex Berlin/Germany __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Could it be....
Eric Hutton wrote: My earliest email I have saved is from 10th May 1997 Hello Eric, Alex, and List, The earliest email I have saved is from Thu, 20 Mar 1997 and it was written by no less a person than Frank ... Frank Stroik for those who still remember him. Time really flies fast and while some list members are still here, others have left us, ... some for good. Who still remembers good, ole Jim? Jim Hurley, the arachnaut! The last I ever heard from him was a mail he sent me Thu, 08 Nov 2001 and, unfortunately, he did not sound very optimistic: Hello Bernd,...yes, I still lurk. I have become a starving artist, so I no longer can afford my web sites, let alone meteorites. Best wishes to All of Us and THANKS A LOT to Art! Bernd __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Could it be....
Eric Hutton wrote: My earliest email I have saved is from 10th May 1997 Hmmmmy earliest email goes back in the 1980's. the earliest email I've saved from meteoritecentral is dated January 13, 1997 from Frank Stroik - a very valuable contributing member, who unfortunately has left the list long ago. The meteorite mailing list has moved to different servers over the years. I think it was originally started around 1995 because I have an email from Joel Schiff dated July 16, 1995, and I'm pretty sure I first heard about Meteorite! magazine from the meteorite list. Anyone else have any recollections on this? Ron Baalke __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Could it be....
Bernd Pauli wrote: The earliest email I have saved is from Thu, 20 Mar 1997 and it was written by no less a person than Frank ... Frank Stroik for those who still remember him. Hi list, My earliest mail saved is from Sun, May 11, 1997, also written by Frank Stroik on vesicles and vugs in chondrules. I guess I joined the list around that date. The header says 'archive/latest/331'. The message is interesting and I will copy it here... Best Regards, Andrei From - Sun May 11 04:55:32 1997 Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 10:28:13 -0600 (MDT) From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Tying up some loose ends. To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Mailing-List: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com archive/latest/331 X-Mozilla-Status: 001d A few people on this list have asked me questions, and I have yet not responded. Today, I will do my best to answer these questions, as I will be out of town for three weeks, as of tommorow. These are questions that the entire list may be interested in reading the answer. I recieved a question a while back, about vesicles, and vugs in chondrules. Bascily the gentleman wanted to know why I said By definition chondrules cannot have vugs/vesicles. Here now is my expalnation, and I apologize to the person for the delay. My answer is derived from an article written for a book written in 1983 entitled Chondrules and Their Origins(published by the Lunar and Planetary Institiute, edited by Elbert A. King). Basicly the definition of chondrule as of 1983, and 1988(a paper published by John Wasson), is an object that has been melted, and cooled rapidly, thus creating small and fine grained aggregates, and in some cases quenched glass. These are spherical to subspherical, and may contain lithic fragments. Now, anytime silicate material is cooled rapidly, the crystals tend to be small, as well as the possible formation of volcanic glass. The mode of formation of chondrules precludes vesicles/vugs based on this, as most gas was probobly removed due to volitization when the material was initialy heated, thereby not allowing to be incorporated in to the rapidly cooling silicates. Here on Earth, I am currently unaware of any igneous bodies, that have been cooled rapidly(i.e. obsidian deposits) that contain any appreciable gas bubbles. Pumice is in a sense volcanic glass that has cooled rapidly, and contains gas in it, but in having this property, it has little structural rigidity, and breaks down readily in relativly short geologic time. So based on the above information, it seems that that chondrules with vesicle/vugs are not likely to occur. However, I am aware that there are still many debates on what exactly a chondrule is, and how to define them. I choose the above definiton, because I am not a chondrule expert, and prefer to follow what seems plausible as realistic classification. I am positive, either right now, or sometime soon the above idea may change, but I will use the above definition until I see otherwise. One more quick comment. I have to upgrade my reference above, as it is somewhat incomplete. The references I need have been checked out of the Library here, and I can't properly site until they come back. I will post the reference, with page numbers when I get back. I had a question on the E-chondrite Earth. I will attempt to explain this paper in as much detail I can(M. Javoy, The integral enstatite chondrite model of the earth Geophysical Research Letters, Vol. 22, No. 16, Pages 2219-, August 15, 1995.) It should be kept in mind that this is an alternative to the conventional earth model that says ordinary chondritic material is what the earth formed from. The basic idea of the article is that E-chondrites match the earth in stable isotope, and redox characteristics. Redox is term used to denote a chemical reaction adding or taking away oxygen. By looking at these properties, models can be made to explain the differentiation of the earths mantle, meaning why the elements are found the way they are in the mantle. The mantle is thought to be homogeneous based on elements found in E,C, and Ordinary chondrites. Using simple chemistry, the depth at which different elements would be found in the mantle is used to try and make a picture of the mantle's makeup. The author of this paper indicates this may be wrong, and the mantle is heterogoneous. The author attempts to explain this by using e-chondrites as building blocks of planet earth. EH- chondrites are the material that is used in the modeling, because it appears to have the closest elemental, and isotopic compositions of the earth. The author explains in some detail the various effects of EH material in the earth, to show it to be feasible. The main point to remember is that the mantle may not be as homgeneous as previously thought, and that it may in fact hold two very different elemental
[meteorite-list] Could it be.... Frank's Article Dated 20 Mar 1997
..should be of interest to all of us, especially to those who are into thin sections (under crossed polars) and classification of meteorites! Cheers, Bernd To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: Classifying Meteorites and the Inherent Problems From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 20:56:10 -0700 (MST) Classifying Meteorites and the Inherent Problems I wanted to take some time out to tell everyone about what is involved in new meteorite analysis and classification. There are many things that make this a difficult and somewhat magical task. It is a very subjective process, that can yield different results if you allow personal judgment to get too involved. To analyze a meteorite you must first have a thin section. This is how all data is obtained, and can be extremely limited if you only have one. The smaller the meteorite, the more difficult to analyze with accuracy. The first step is to look at the general texture of the meteorite under normal light in the micro- scope. Here you can see how weathered it is and how bashed up it is. The minerals should be pretty much clear, but if it is weathered, they will appear brown. This can cause problems as this may further add to the bashed up appearence of the meteorite. Next you have to cross the polars. This means simply, polarize the light. Minerals behave differ- ently to polarization. This is due to a property known as bifringence. The atomic structure of a mineral will bend the light in a certain way, and create a most spectacular image. For example, olivine is pretty much colorless in plain light, but polarize it, and you get extremely bright blues, greens, and yellows. Each mineral behaves differently under polarization. It is these differences that help us decide what is in the meteorite. Now you must look for a mineral known to petrologists as OPX. This is basicly the solid solution of enstatite, bronzite, hypersthene, and ferrosilite. A solid solution is a solution that can have different chemical compositions depending on precentage of elements that are available. In OPX this is Fe, and Mg. If it were pure Mg, it would be enstatite, and if it were pure Fe, it would be ferrosilite. However it is rare that such a thing happens in nature, so bronzite and hypersthene are basicly different compositions of Fe, and Mg, hypersthene being more Mg rich, and bronzite being more Fe rich. When you find OPX, you must decide if it is the appropriate crystal system for you to use in your analysis. This is done by turning the microscope stage (the place where the thin section rests) until the mineral is completely black. If it turns and goes black it is what you are looking for. If it must be turned 90 degrees it is the wrong crystal system. Now you look at how many of these grains there are, and determine how abundant they are. All the while you are doing this you look at the state of the chondrules. Are they whole, twisted, degenerated, or just plain gone? This gives you clues to what petrologic type it is. The less OPX, and the more degenerated the chondrules, the higher the petrologic type. Now sound judgement must be used. Did I see what I thought, did I miss anything? Based on a few more tests you decide on the petrologic type. Now you are ready for the chemical classification(H, L, LL). You bring that sample to the microprobe for analysis. A microprobe is a device that sends X-rays down a short tunnel. These X-rays hit a minute portion of the sample, and become reflected. Different mineral compositions reflect x-rays in different ways. This is how an elemental composition is derived. The two minerals you use are OPX, and olivine. In both you try to determine how much Fe is present. This tells you what chemical class to put it in. H chondrites have about 18% Fe in both minerals, L chondrites have about 22%, and LL chondrites have about 26% . This is related to how much metallic Fe is in the matrix. The lower the percent in the minerals, the more free Fe in the matrix. That is why H chondrites show more metal flakes than either of the L or LLs. The problems are many. I spent two hours today trying to find an OPX grain suitable for microprobe analysis. The grains were so small, I kept getting too close to other minerals, that led to inaccurate results. At 75.00 an hour, this can be an expensive search. It takes about 12 hrs to do a really good analysis. So as you can see there is no such thing as a free analysis. Next I found that what had been written about Correo (H4) is not what I observed. I am using Correo as a model to compare the meteorites I am analyzing to. I find Correo to be of the petrologic type 5. The problem here is subjectivity. All meteorites are a mixture of all petrologic types. Which type a meteorite contains the most of is usually what it is given. Now I must decide to publish the change in type, or say it is just the way my research went. Well I hope that everyone
Re: [meteorite-list] Could it be.... Frank's Article Dated 20 Mar 1997
Hello Bernd and All, thank you very much for the article. I have read some articles on classification, but this one written by Frank Stroik is easily understood. I do have a better idea of how classifying a meteorite is done now. I can see also how mistakes are made, also given the time one has to put in to have the proper result. Do you think with so many NWAs being classified that some are done faster than others and I don't mean only NWAs? So I have heard before that some universities have a different outcome. Having read the article its better understood why. With best regards, Moni _ Get Hilary Duffs homepage with her photos, music, and more. http://celebrities.live.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Could it be....
Frank at that time was at U of Wyoming and was in the process of cataloguing an abandon pile of miss labeled meteorites that didn't fit in with the museum dedicated to dinosaurs.m I miss Frank! Dave F. Frank and earnest [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Eric Hutton wrote: My earliest email I have saved is from 10th May 1997 Hello Eric, Alex, and List, The earliest email I have saved is from Thu, 20 Mar 1997 and it was written by no less a person than Frank ... Frank Stroik for those who still remember him. Time really flies fast and while some list members are still here, others have left us, ... some for good. Who still remembers good, ole Jim? Jim Hurley, the arachnaut! The last I ever heard from him was a mail he sent me Thu, 08 Nov 2001 and, unfortunately, he did not sound very optimistic: Hello Bernd,...yes, I still lurk. I have become a starving artist, so I no longer can afford my web sites, let alone meteorites. Best wishes to All of Us and THANKS A LOT to Art! Bernd __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Could We Tell Life If We Saw It? (Recorded Lecture on ALH84001)
http://aics-research.com/lotw/ March 20, 2006 Could We Tell Life If We Saw It? ALH84001 in 2004 Joe Kirschvink California Institute of Technology 34 min. (requires QCShow Player) How can we hope to distinguish true biological microfossils from random assemblages of crystalline mineral material - especially if the life that those microfossils might represent were potentially an independent origin of life, billions of years ago, on another planet, and is now likely extinct? That's the question that has raged around the structures found in the Allen Hills 84001 meteorite. As UCLA's William Schopf has written, There are fine lines between what is known, guessed, and hoped for, and because science is done by real people these lines are sometimes crossed. But science is not a guessing game. The goal is to know. 'Possibly... perhaps... maybe' are not firm answers and feel-good solutions do not count. With regard to the famed Mars meteorite, for example, life either once existed on Mars or it didn't. Meteorite ALH84001 either holds telling evidence or it doesn't. Eventually, hard facts will sort it out. Schopf has been among the harshest critics of the earliest interpretations of life in ALH84001. Probably the best way to avoid being fooled by nonbiologic structures is to accept as bona fide fossils only those of fairly complex form. This may seem an unreasonably stringent rule for truly ancient fossils since the earliest kinds of cellular life (here and presumably elsewhere) almost certainly were very simple - probably individual, tiny, spheroidal cells. But until we have a sounder base of knowledge and better rules to separate nonfossils from true, it is best to err on the side of caution. CalTech's Joe Kirschvink agrees, but comes to a different conclusion. Microfossil paleontologies based on morphologies are undoubtedly flawed. In morphology's place however, Kirschvink compellingly argues that the fingerprint of natural selection can be detected by the very complexity and purity of the results that selection produces. While there are no biological processes that can not be reproduced in some manner by non-life processes, the results of simple inorganic syntheses are haphazard at best. Magnetite exists in ALH84001, and Kirschvink argues that it was biologically produced, primarily by subjecting it to a Venn diagram analysis of seven different physical characteristics, each ranging from hard to easy, and in the process pointing out that ALH84011's magnetite is of an even higher quality than is capable of currently being manufactured by human processes. Magnetotactic bacteria were discovered on Earth only in the 1960's, but we now know of south- and north-pole seeking bacteria. For an organism evolved to exist in ponds within a narrow range of oxic-anoxic conditions, where light doesn't penetrate and gravity is overwhelmed by random Brownian motions, the evolution of magnetotaxis is an exceptionally clever solution to the problem determining orientation. Although Mars no longer has either a magnetic field or liquid water, it is strongly presumed that Mars once had both, and the most parsimonious, simplest explanation for the high-quality magnetite crystals that appear in ALH84001 is that they were synthesized by organisms similar to terrestrial bacteria. - Wirt Atmar About the Speaker Joe Kirschvink is widely known as an original thinker and an excellent teacher. Among his major contributions are: # the idea that biogenic magnetite produced by the magnetotactic bacteria (magnetofossils) might be responsible for the magnetization of some sedimentary rocks; these magnetofossils now provide the strongest evidence for early life on the planet Mars. # A second idea was that the magnetic field sensitivity in animals might be due to small chains of the same biogenic magnetite functioning as specialized sensory organelles; this work has provided a solid biophysical basis for understanding magnetic effects on animal behavior, and has actually led to the discovery of these new sensory organs in higher animals. # An idea that is generating much interest recently is that the entire Earth may have actually frozen over several times in Earth history, resembling a Snowball, potentially causing some of the most severe crises in the history of life on Earth and perhaps stimulating evolution. # Another original concept is that the Cambrian Evolutionary explosion may have been precipitated in part by large burst of true polar wander, in which the Earth's rotational axis moved to the equator in a geologically short interval to of time, and... # that the burst of biomineralization observed in the fossil record at the Cambrian Explosion may have resulted from the evolutionary exaptation of the magnetite biomineralization system. A common thread in all of these efforts is the study of paleomagnetism and rock magnetism, for which the Kirschvink group maintains laboratories dedicated to the study of weakly magnetic
[meteorite-list] Could A Meteorite or Comet Cause All The Fires of 1871?
In Could A Meteorite or Comet Cause All The Fires of 1871? http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/meteorite-list/2004-August/143245.html Sterling K. Webb wrote: These strange fires were not restricted to the IL-WI-MI triangle centered around the southern end of Lake Michigan. Because of the slowness of communication in 1871, it was not immediately recognized that the fires of October 8, 1871 were scattered over parts of seven states and Canada and may have caused as many as 10,000 deaths. I would be interested to know where the claim that the fire actually started in seven states and Canada simultaneously. From what I seen written in well- researched books on the 1871 fire, i.e. Michigan On Fire by Betty Sodders in 1997, the fact of the matter is that fires outside IL-WI-MI area were occurring and started well before October 8 and had been occurring all Fall because of the hot and dry weather that had created a drought that was devastating in its own right. If a person looks at the historical record, he or she would find that it is an absolute misrepresentation of it in stating that these fires all started simultaneously with the October 8 fire. The so-called instantaneous / simultaneous nature of the fire, from what I have seen, is pure fiction created by shoddy research and wishful thinking on the part of advocates of the comet impact theory, who seem to be rather ill-informed of the actual chronology of forest fires in 1871. For example, a person can read The Fire that Destroyed Holland, Michigan at: http://www.geo.msu.edu/geo333/holland%20fire/hollandfire1.html In terms of the so-called simultaneous nature of the 1871 fire, the web page noted: There had already been a threat of danger earlier in the week. Fires kept smoldering and burned barns and houses, but the danger seemed to be far from the city. Then on Sunday, October 9, there were reports that a threatening forest fire was coming. and The community at the time was populated with 2400 residents and for many days previous, these residents had battled and beaten many small fires that had erupted throughout the town. It is quite clear that fires were starting within the area of the 1871 fire days, even weeks, before October 8. The fire of 1871 simply didn't magically appear on October 8, 1871 out of nowhere but was preceded by numerous smaller fires days, even weeks, before it occurred. Even more interesting comments about the 1871 fire can be found in History Ecology of Fire in Michigan Wildland Fire In Michigan. at: http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10367_11851-24038--,00.html This web page stated: It was not a single fire but a combination of hundreds of fires, small and large, that had been burning unattended for weeks, only to flare up and unite when conditions became acute. This statement totally demolishes the case for a meteorite or comet, as the 1871 didn't start on Oct. 8, 1871. Rather the 1871 fire on October 8 occurred when it exploded into a firestorm when fires only after burning for days, even weeks, before that date. Oct 8 was simply the point that these fires, as they coalesced, exceeded the critical mass needed to explode into massive firestorm. The historical record also clearly demonstrates the source of these fires. For example, the History Ecology of Fire in Michigan Wildland Fire In Michigan web page stated: Set carelessly or by settlers in clearing land, fires burned everywhere, and ran uncontrolled into the woods and swamps where they continued to smolder. Also, the The Fire that Destroyed Holland, Michigan web page stated: In the fall of 1871, the ground was very dry after the long summer. The summer had been very hot and dry and some areas hadn't had rain since June. In Holland, fires began in the piles of sawdust, waste wood, and finished lumber in the yards of the city's several sawmills, and the winds quickly spread the flames throughout the town. The small spark ignited the piles of wood and spread to become one of Michigan's most widespread forest fire. These quotes point out the fact that that Michigan was having problems with outbreaks of smaller fires, weeks before October 8. The fire simply didn't magically, simultaneously start on that date, but rather innumerable small fires, which had been burning for weeks before October 8, came together on that date. The fact that smaller fires were burning many days prior to October 8 refutes the claim that everything simultaneously burst into flame on that date and the so-called anomalous nature of the fire. It is quite obvious that long before October 8, this region was having major problems with outbreaks of multiple, ongoing fires. The History Ecology of Fire in Michigan Wildland Fire In Michigan stated: Michigan was extensively logged toward the end of the 19th century. The White Pine that had once covered Michigan was cut, followed by the hardwood forests, and large expanses of
Re: [meteorite-list] Could A Meteorite or Comet Cause All The Fires of1871?
Hi, Paul, The phrase all the fires comes from the newspaper, not me. My comments address only the Peshtigo fire, those small towns near Peshtigo, and the Chicago fire. Of course, there is a natural background rate of forest and grass fires after a long dry summer, and some of the October 8th fires had been burning earlier and there were fires afterward, too. But, I'll stand by the word simultaneous. The Wisconsin fires (nine towns over four counties, including Peshtigo) all started at the same time as nearly as can be determined. The time of the Peshtigo fire (9:30 pm) and the start of the Great Chicago Fire (9:25 pm) are for all practical historical purposes simultaneous, even though they are separated by hundreds of miles. Quite a coincidence! Hey, if you like coincidences, try this one. The Wisconsin fires are all oriented on a linear track running north and south and pointing at the radiant point of the Draconid shower. Well, OK, within 10 degrees. Still, it's a pretty good coincidence. The Michigan fires were regarded as complicating the picture (because there were so many small fires already burning) as early as 1872. See History of the Great Conflagration, by Sheahan and Upson, Chicago, 1872. However, it is difficult to explain the outbreak of intense and major new fires all over the state of Michigan, all starting at 9:30 to 10:00 pm, if each was the independent result of the random flare-up of an existing fire, and the absence of any new fires after October 8th. There were also fires in Indiana, Iowa, Minnesota, both Dakotas, and in Manitoba and Alberta, Canada. I hold no brief for them (or the Michigan fires). Some, none, or all may have been triggered by air-bursts. I have not been able to uncover any definitive signs of firestorms (very high temperatures, de-oxygenated zones, etc.) in any account of the fires other in than Chicago and Wisconsin. That could be accounted for by the absence of concentrated fuel stocks or by the absence of thermal air-bursts or by their being natural fires, take your pick. It's mostly a case of attitude. If you accept the likelihood of an airburst causing the Chicago and Peshtigo fires, then the other fires are suspicious but indeterminate. If you go with the one-cow theory, well, fires are fires and they start all the time, so what? Both are reasonable but depend on where your starting point lies. Sterling - Paul H wrote: In Could A Meteorite or Comet Cause All The Fires of 1871? http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/meteorite-list/2004-August/143245.html Sterling K. Webb wrote: These strange fires were not restricted to the IL-WI-MI triangle centered around the southern end of Lake Michigan. Because of the slowness of communication in 1871, it was not immediately recognized that the fires of October 8, 1871 were scattered over parts of seven states and Canada and may have caused as many as 10,000 deaths. I would be interested to know where the claim that the fire actually started in seven states and Canada simultaneously. From what I seen written in well- researched books on the 1871 fire, i.e. Michigan On Fire by Betty Sodders in 1997, the fact of the matter is that fires outside IL-WI-MI area were occurring and started well before October 8 and had been occurring all Fall because of the hot and dry weather that had created a drought that was devastating in its own right. If a person looks at the historical record, he or she would find that it is an absolute misrepresentation of it in stating that these fires all started simultaneously with the October 8 fire. The so-called instantaneous / simultaneous nature of the fire, from what I have seen, is pure fiction created by shoddy research and wishful thinking on the part of advocates of the comet impact theory, who seem to be rather ill-informed of the actual chronology of forest fires in 1871. For example, a person can read The Fire that Destroyed Holland, Michigan at: http://www.geo.msu.edu/geo333/holland%20fire/hollandfire1.html In terms of the so-called simultaneous nature of the 1871 fire, the web page noted: There had already been a threat of danger earlier in the week. Fires kept smoldering and burned barns and houses, but the danger seemed to be far from the city. Then on Sunday, October 9, there were reports that a threatening forest fire was coming. and The community at the time was populated with 2400 residents and for many days previous, these residents had battled and beaten many small fires that had erupted throughout the town. It is quite clear that fires were starting within the area of the 1871 fire days, even weeks, before October 8. The fire of 1871 simply didn't magically appear on October 8, 1871 out of nowhere but was preceded by numerous smaller fires days, even weeks, before it occurred. Even more interesting comments
Re: [meteorite-list] Could A Meteorite or Comet Cause All The Fires of1871?
Dear Believers and non Believers; So, in all of his, does anyone actually have a genuine measured temperature, genuine measured relative humidity, wind speed (actually monitored not just guessed), and wind direction for ANY OF THESE LOCATIONS? Having said that, it is October, food is cooked at this time in history with wood or coal fuels, we are in the middle of an extremely large lumbering area with millions of acres of pine slashings and toward the end of a historically dry summer/early fall. I would really like to see the meteorite/cometary factions offer some REAL relative humidity numbers. to win me more toward the impossible..is that possible? Next topic, UFO Abductions. Dave Freeman Sterling K. Webb wrote: Hi, Paul, The phrase all the fires comes from the newspaper, not me. My comments address only the Peshtigo fire, those small towns near Peshtigo, and the Chicago fire. Of course, there is a natural background rate of forest and grass fires after a long dry summer, and some of the October 8th fires had been burning earlier and there were fires afterward, too. But, I'll stand by the word simultaneous. The Wisconsin fires (nine towns over four counties, including Peshtigo) all started at the same time as nearly as can be determined. The time of the Peshtigo fire (9:30 pm) and the start of the Great Chicago Fire (9:25 pm) are for all practical historical purposes simultaneous, even though they are separated by hundreds of miles. Quite a coincidence! Hey, if you like coincidences, try this one. The Wisconsin fires are all oriented on a linear track running north and south and pointing at the radiant point of the Draconid shower. Well, OK, within 10 degrees. Still, it's a pretty good coincidence. The Michigan fires were regarded as complicating the picture (because there were so many small fires already burning) as early as 1872. See History of the Great Conflagration, by Sheahan and Upson, Chicago, 1872. However, it is difficult to explain the outbreak of intense and major new fires all over the state of Michigan, all starting at 9:30 to 10:00 pm, if each was the independent result of the random flare-up of an existing fire, and the absence of any new fires after October 8th. There were also fires in Indiana, Iowa, Minnesota, both Dakotas, and in Manitoba and Alberta, Canada. I hold no brief for them (or the Michigan fires). Some, none, or all may have been triggered by air-bursts. I have not been able to uncover any definitive signs of firestorms (very high temperatures, de-oxygenated zones, etc.) in any account of the fires other in than Chicago and Wisconsin. That could be accounted for by the absence of concentrated fuel stocks or by the absence of thermal air-bursts or by their being natural fires, take your pick. It's mostly a case of attitude. If you accept the likelihood of an airburst causing the Chicago and Peshtigo fires, then the other fires are suspicious but indeterminate. If you go with the one-cow theory, well, fires are fires and they start all the time, so what? Both are reasonable but depend on where your starting point lies. Sterling - Paul H wrote: In Could A Meteorite or Comet Cause All The Fires of 1871? http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/meteorite-list/2004-August/143245.html Sterling K. Webb wrote: These strange fires were not restricted to the IL-WI-MI triangle centered around the southern end of Lake Michigan. Because of the slowness of communication in 1871, it was not immediately recognized that the fires of October 8, 1871 were scattered over parts of seven states and Canada and may have caused as many as 10,000 deaths. I would be interested to know where the claim that the fire actually started in seven states and Canada simultaneously. From what I seen written in well- researched books on the 1871 fire, i.e. Michigan On Fire by Betty Sodders in 1997, the fact of the matter is that fires outside IL-WI-MI area were occurring and started well before October 8 and had been occurring all Fall because of the hot and dry weather that had created a drought that was devastating in its own right. If a person looks at the historical record, he or she would find that it is an absolute misrepresentation of it in stating that these fires all started simultaneously with the October 8 fire. The so-called instantaneous / simultaneous nature of the fire, from what I have seen, is pure fiction created by shoddy research and wishful thinking on the part of advocates of the comet impact theory, who seem to be rather ill-informed of the actual chronology of forest fires in 1871. For example, a person can read The Fire that Destroyed Holland, Michigan at: http://www.geo.msu.edu/geo333/holland%20fire/hollandfire1.html In terms of the so-called simultaneous nature of the 1871 fire, the web page noted: There had already been a threat of danger earlier in the week. Fires kept smoldering and
Re: [meteorite-list] Could A Meteorite or Comet Cause All The Firesof1871?
Dear Ken, List; Very interesting historical account. I note the historical account left out any report of meteorites or comets, or earthquakes, or atomic blasts by UFOs. My great, great, great grandpa Schaffer was living in the Sherman area when the fires took place. He passed the story down to my grandpa, whom I learned about the people from Manistee to East Tawas who fled to the lakes and rivers to escape the fires. I have a picture of my three great grandpa holding a set of white tail antlers and a Damascus twisted, open hammer double barrel shot gun. Pretty cool. He was also a member of the Michigan Militia and help guard president Lincoln during part of the civil war. History is thrilling after a while. Dave F. ken newton wrote: Sterling, Thanks for the links. Here is a corrected link: http://www.iswonline.com/archives/eclectic/peshtigo.shtml ( I especially liked the newspaper accounts - before and after) best, ken __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Could A Meteorite or Comet Cause All The Fires of 1871?
http://www.cadillacnews.com/articles/2004/08/23/news/news02.txt Could a meteorite or comet cause all the fires of 1871? By Dale Killingbeck Cadillac News (Michigan) August 23, 2004 CADILLAC - The skies around Sherman and the village of Clam Lake undoubtedly turned from blue to black. In Chicago, flames were racing through the city and in Peshtigo, Wis., people were running for their lives. Flames from the woods near Manistee invaded the town on a quiet Sunday - and people fought for their homes. Within three days of the fires, thousands were homeless, hundreds from Chicago, Wisconsin and Michigan dead, and many pioneers faced the winter without a home or crops to eat. In the month of the Perseid Meteor shower, it is interesting to ponder - could a disintegrated comet be the cause of the fires? An Upper Peninsula systems design engineer thinks so, as does a former physicist with McDonnell Douglas Corp. Consider a statement by the Detroit Post on Oct. 10, 1871: In all parts of the state, as will be noticed by our correspondence during the past few days and also today, there are numerous fires in the wood, in many places approaching so near to towns as to endanger the towns themselves. In Holland, fire destroyed the city, in Lansing flames threatened the agricultural college and in the Thumb, farmers trying to establish homesteads soon would be diving into shallow wells to escape an inferno some newspapers dubbed: The Fiery Fiend. Many did not escape. Fires threatened Muskegon, South Haven, Grand Rapids, Wayland and reached the outskirts of Big Rapids. A steamship passing the Manitou Islands reported they were on fire. A horror story? Yes. And so real that historic markers to the event can be found at Manistee and in the Thumb. Lots has been written about the storm of fire that killed 2,000 in Peshtigo, Wis., and the Great Chicago Fire and the fires that devastated the Lower Peninsula of Michigan. Theories for the fires are many - but one thing is certain, the devouring flames showed up at the same time. Most historians point to the dry weather of the summer and the poor logging practices of the day for creating conditions ripe for a hot dry wind from the southwest that blew into the area whipping up small fires already smoldering and carrying destruction through the state. Theories for the Chicago and Michigan fires include Mrs. O'Leary's cow knocking over the lantern and then firebrands from Chicago being driven across the lake to ignite Michigan. But there is another interesting theory that continues to make the rounds on the Web and in at least one presentation by a retired physicist who worked for McDonnell Douglas Corp. In 1871, fire erupted in Chicago, Wisconsin and northern Michigan at the same time. Some believe a meteorite or comet was to blame. The Discovery Channel reported on its Web site in March a presentation by Robert Wood, a retired McDonnell-Douglas physicist, who theorizes fragments of a comet discovered in the early 1820s possibly caused the fires. Wood theorized that small pieces of frozen methane, acetylene or other high combustive materials hit the earth sparking the flames. That theory also resounds with Munising's Ken Rieli who believes he found a chunk of meteorite in the waters off the Port Sanilac shore a few years ago. We started doing an investigation on where the meteorite came from, he said. His investigation also took him back to the Comet Biela that was discovered in 1821 and returned every six years and nine months. It was last seen in 1866 and never showed up in 1872. It was supposed to recycle and it wasn't there, Rieli said. He questions how fires could start simultaneously in Chicago, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan and Ontario. He also notes how dry summers and strong winds since have never produced a similar result in America's history. If these are coming down like buckshot with real dry conditions ... Rieli theorizes how flaming space rocks could have ignited fires in many places. He said he's been contacted by relatives of survivors of the Peshtigo fire who shared stories from their ancestors about seeing fire falling from the sky. Physicist Wood in his report cited eyewitness reports of spontaneous ignition and fire balloons. Rieli said Canadian geologists found a huge impact crater 200 feet below Lake Huron in the Port Huron area in the early 1990s. He said he has a relative who participated in drilling for a water pipeline to serve the Detroit in the same area at the same depth. He said crews discovered meteorite-like rock as they bored a hole for the pipeline. They were bringing it out and piling it up, he said. He said the rock was reformulated and either was volcanic or a meteorite. It's another piece of evidence that the Michigan area and parts of Canada, Illinois are ground zero for an active meteor strike zone. Michigan State University's David Batch, director of the Abram's Planetarium, said he had not heard the theory before
Re: [meteorite-list] Could A Meteorite or Comet Cause All The Fires of 1871?
Dear Ron, and List; I am originally from the Cadillac, MI area, graduated HS there. Lived in Sherman for three years, tiny town and former county seat (and the 1880's civil riot that moved the courthouse to Cadillac). I have seen many thousands of burned white pine and red pine stumps from the 1871 fires. Knowing how dry it can be in Michigan's predominantly pine forests in the month of August, spontaneous combustion is more likely than a meteorite or commentary source of ignition. Heat lightening and thunderstorm related lightening is a much higher probabliltity as is the native americans burning the blueberry bogs as they do annually. During that time, the state was loaded with pine slashings from the buildup of logging the massive forests of the day. I think this story has more holes than an old Willie Nelson T shirt! Skeptical is putting it lightly, I think it is just plain grasping at nothing for the sake of getting one's name in the paper. Must be a very slow news day for the Cadillac Evening News (that I had subscribed to for years). Best, Dave Freeman Ron Baalke wrote: http://www.cadillacnews.com/articles/2004/08/23/news/news02.txt Could a meteorite or comet cause all the fires of 1871? By Dale Killingbeck Cadillac News (Michigan) August 23, 2004 CADILLAC - The skies around Sherman and the village of Clam Lake undoubtedly turned from blue to black. In Chicago, flames were racing through the city and in Peshtigo, Wis., people were running for their lives. Flames from the woods near Manistee invaded the town on a quiet Sunday - and people fought for their homes. Within three days of the fires, thousands were homeless, hundreds from Chicago, Wisconsin and Michigan dead, and many pioneers faced the winter without a home or crops to eat. In the month of the Perseid Meteor shower, it is interesting to ponder - could a disintegrated comet be the cause of the fires? An Upper Peninsula systems design engineer thinks so, as does a former physicist with McDonnell Douglas Corp. Consider a statement by the Detroit Post on Oct. 10, 1871: In all parts of the state, as will be noticed by our correspondence during the past few days and also today, there are numerous fires in the wood, in many places approaching so near to towns as to endanger the towns themselves. In Holland, fire destroyed the city, in Lansing flames threatened the agricultural college and in the Thumb, farmers trying to establish homesteads soon would be diving into shallow wells to escape an inferno some newspapers dubbed: The Fiery Fiend. Many did not escape. Fires threatened Muskegon, South Haven, Grand Rapids, Wayland and reached the outskirts of Big Rapids. A steamship passing the Manitou Islands reported they were on fire. A horror story? Yes. And so real that historic markers to the event can be found at Manistee and in the Thumb. Lots has been written about the storm of fire that killed 2,000 in Peshtigo, Wis., and the Great Chicago Fire and the fires that devastated the Lower Peninsula of Michigan. Theories for the fires are many - but one thing is certain, the devouring flames showed up at the same time. Most historians point to the dry weather of the summer and the poor logging practices of the day for creating conditions ripe for a hot dry wind from the southwest that blew into the area whipping up small fires already smoldering and carrying destruction through the state. Theories for the Chicago and Michigan fires include Mrs. O'Leary's cow knocking over the lantern and then firebrands from Chicago being driven across the lake to ignite Michigan. But there is another interesting theory that continues to make the rounds on the Web and in at least one presentation by a retired physicist who worked for McDonnell Douglas Corp. In 1871, fire erupted in Chicago, Wisconsin and northern Michigan at the same time. Some believe a meteorite or comet was to blame. The Discovery Channel reported on its Web site in March a presentation by Robert Wood, a retired McDonnell-Douglas physicist, who theorizes fragments of a comet discovered in the early 1820s possibly caused the fires. Wood theorized that small pieces of frozen methane, acetylene or other high combustive materials hit the earth sparking the flames. That theory also resounds with Munising's Ken Rieli who believes he found a chunk of meteorite in the waters off the Port Sanilac shore a few years ago. We started doing an investigation on where the meteorite came from, he said. His investigation also took him back to the Comet Biela that was discovered in 1821 and returned every six years and nine months. It was last seen in 1866 and never showed up in 1872. It was supposed to recycle and it wasn't there, Rieli said. He questions how fires could start simultaneously in Chicago, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan and Ontario. He also notes how dry summers and strong winds since have never produced a similar result in America's history. If these are coming down like buckshot
Re: [meteorite-list] Could A Meteorite or Comet Cause All The Fires of
Anyone who has researched the history of these fires knows how spurious this theory likely is (at least as to the north woods blazes). There were small slash fires burning throughout the north woods most of that summer and early fall. The protracted drought and an intense weather system with associated high winds combined to drive and coalesce the individual fires into the conflagrations that swept Peshtigo and elsewhere. More to the point for this group: is there any credible report on record anywhere of a meteorite arrival igniting a significant fire (other than from historic asteroid-scale impacts)? In contrast, a notable (witnessed) Wisconsin fall -- at Colby -- arrived on the warm and humid evening of July 4, 1917. The meteorite was so cold when recovered that frost formed on it. Mark http://www.cadillacnews.com/articles/2004/08/23/news/news02.txt Could a meteorite or comet cause all the fires of 1871? By Dale Killingbeck Cadillac News (Michigan) August 23, 2004 CADILLAC - The skies around Sherman and the village of Clam Lake undoubtedly turned from blue to black. In Chicago, flames were racing through the city and in Peshtigo, Wis., people were running for their lives. Flames from the woods near Manistee invaded the town on a quiet Sunday - and people fought for their homes. Within three days of the fires, thousands were homeless, hundreds from Chicago, Wisconsin and Michigan dead, and many pioneers faced the winter without a home or crops to eat. In the month of the Perseid Meteor shower, it is interesting to ponder - could a disintegrated comet be the cause of the fires? An Upper Peninsula systems design engineer thinks so, as does a former physicist with McDonnell Douglas Corp. __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Could A Meteorite or Comet Cause All The Fires of
Dear All; I have just gotten off the telephone with Mr. Killingbeck from the Cadillac Evening News and he was a delight to speak with. He will be contacting me in a couple of weeks for an interview for another/follow up story on meteorites and the connection, or in this case, the lack of it, with the historic fires. I noted that the logging industry had probably more to do with the fires than anything from the cosmos. The landscape is dotted with 3 foot diameter tree stumps that are charred. They make great stools to sit on while deer hunting in November. The local library there has the New Bob Haag color meteorite book that I presented them two years ago, and they also have a copy of the ROCKS FROM SPACE book as well. I mentioned that the reporter would enjoy researching both books in preparation for the follow up story. Where's our other Michigan meteorite associates? George, Mark, Maria, here's your chance Very best, Dave Freeman Mark Langenfeld wrote: Anyone who has researched the history of these fires knows how spurious this theory likely is (at least as to the north woods blazes). There were small slash fires burning throughout the north woods most of that summer and early fall. The protracted drought and an intense weather system with associated high winds combined to drive and coalesce the individual fires into the conflagrations that swept Peshtigo and elsewhere. More to the point for this group: is there any credible report on record anywhere of a meteorite arrival igniting a significant fire (other than from historic asteroid-scale impacts)? In contrast, a notable (witnessed) Wisconsin fall -- at Colby -- arrived on the warm and humid evening of July 4, 1917. The meteorite was so cold when recovered that frost formed on it. Mark http://www.cadillacnews.com/articles/2004/08/23/news/news02.txt Could a meteorite or comet cause all the fires of 1871? By Dale Killingbeck Cadillac News (Michigan) August 23, 2004 CADILLAC - The skies around Sherman and the village of Clam Lake undoubtedly turned from blue to black. In Chicago, flames were racing through the city and in Peshtigo, Wis., people were running for their lives. Flames from the woods near Manistee invaded the town on a quiet Sunday - and people fought for their homes. Within three days of the fires, thousands were homeless, hundreds from Chicago, Wisconsin and Michigan dead, and many pioneers faced the winter without a home or crops to eat. In the month of the Perseid Meteor shower, it is interesting to ponder - could a disintegrated comet be the cause of the fires? An Upper Peninsula systems design engineer thinks so, as does a former physicist with McDonnell Douglas Corp. __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Could A Meteorite or Comet Cause All The Fires of 1871?
He said he's been contacted by relatives of survivors of the Peshtigo fire who shared stories from their ancestors about seeing fire falling from the sky. Mr. Wood has joined the ranks of Micro-Mike (Frass Meteorite). The promoting of fact-less theory is less than amusing. The reports of fire falling from heaven were rampant in the later half of the 1800's through the first few decades of the 1900's. You can check out the disastrous aerolite articles on my site: http://home.earthlink.net/~magellon/news1.html ( Also see Mark Bostick's site - www.meteoritearticles.com ) However, those reports were a result of one (or more) AP writer's desire to give persons something interesting to read regardless of the fact that they did not happen. The Press also does not like to admit when it has deceived the public.(much like the Press's failure to follow up on current meteorwrong reports) So cudos to one writer who tried to exposed the canard(s) http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/meteorite-list/2003-March/125588.html How many persons read the false accounts, believed the lies and shared their own 'experience' with their offspring? (Shades of Patricia Polacco) I have seen lightning start fires on more than one occasion. Combine lightning with wind and dry conditions and disaster results. Those were the conditions on a grand scale. Why make a simple natural occurrence, unreasonably complicated? Thank goodness for David Batch's voice of reason. Best, ken PS - Meteors causing fires is a very popular misconception. Did anyone see the episode of Stargate when the 'team' visited a planet having its' yearly meteor shower. Only this time the giant flaming meteors impacted the planet, burned houses and created havoc? Even though inaccurate, the special effects were very impressive! :) Ron Baalke wrote: http://www.cadillacnews.com/articles/2004/08/23/news/news02.txt Could a meteorite or comet cause all the fires of 1871? By Dale Killingbeck Cadillac News (Michigan) August 23, 2004 CADILLAC - The skies around Sherman and the village of Clam Lake undoubtedly turned from blue to black. In Chicago, flames were racing through the city and in Peshtigo, Wis., people were running for their lives. Flames from the woods near Manistee invaded the town on a quiet Sunday - and people fought for their homes. Within three days of the fires, thousands were homeless, hundreds from Chicago, Wisconsin and Michigan dead, and many pioneers faced the winter without a home or crops to eat. In the month of the Perseid Meteor shower, it is interesting to ponder - could a disintegrated comet be the cause of the fires? An Upper Peninsula systems design engineer thinks so, as does a former physicist with McDonnell Douglas Corp. Consider a statement by the Detroit Post on Oct. 10, 1871: In all parts of the state, as will be noticed by our correspondence during the past few days and also today, there are numerous fires in the wood, in many places approaching so near to towns as to endanger the towns themselves. In Holland, fire destroyed the city, in Lansing flames threatened the agricultural college and in the Thumb, farmers trying to establish homesteads soon would be diving into shallow wells to escape an inferno some newspapers dubbed: The Fiery Fiend. Many did not escape. Fires threatened Muskegon, South Haven, Grand Rapids, Wayland and reached the outskirts of Big Rapids. A steamship passing the Manitou Islands reported they were on fire. A horror story? Yes. And so real that historic markers to the event can be found at Manistee and in the Thumb. Lots has been written about the storm of fire that killed 2,000 in Peshtigo, Wis., and the Great Chicago Fire and the fires that devastated the Lower Peninsula of Michigan. Theories for the fires are many - but one thing is certain, the devouring flames showed up at the same time. Most historians point to the dry weather of the summer and the poor logging practices of the day for creating conditions ripe for a hot dry wind from the southwest that blew into the area whipping up small fires already smoldering and carrying destruction through the state. Theories for the Chicago and Michigan fires include Mrs. O'Leary's cow knocking over the lantern and then firebrands from Chicago being driven across the lake to ignite Michigan. But there is another interesting theory that continues to make the rounds on the Web and in at least one presentation by a retired physicist who worked for McDonnell Douglas Corp. In 1871, fire erupted in Chicago, Wisconsin and northern Michigan at the same time. Some believe a meteorite or comet was to blame. The Discovery Channel reported on its Web site in March a presentation by Robert Wood, a retired McDonnell-Douglas physicist, who theorizes fragments of a comet discovered in the early 1820s possibly caused the fires. Wood theorized that small pieces of frozen methane, acetylene or other high combustive materials hit the earth sparking the flames. That theory also resounds
Re: [meteorite-list] Could A Meteorite or Comet Cause All The Fires of1871?
Hi, Everybody! So many people have joined in the general pooh-poohing that I can't copy you all! The Web site mentioned in the article is complete trash and the crater is imaginary, as was pointed out years ago on this very List (not by me). Ken Rieli is a complete crackpot, and Mr. Wood appears to be a recent convert, although the newspaper article does not make it clear whether they even know of each other. But the fires are real and have been thought to require an explanation for a long time, even by non-crackpots. The literature on the subject goes back a long way. These strange fires were not restricted to the IL-WI-MI triangle centered around the southern end of Lake Michigan. Because of the slowness of communication in 1871, it was not immediately recognized that the fires of October 8, 1871 were scattered over parts of seven states and Canada and may have caused as many as 10,000 deaths. The scope of this disaster led a Minnesota Congressman, Ignatius Donnelly, to write a super-best-seller book called RAGNAROK shortly after the fires, in which he put forth the Comet Biela theory. RAGNAROK was so financially successful that Donnelly quit Congress to write more books including one in which he invents the modern whacko concept of Atlantis, a trick that made him even more money. So the first question is: does the simultaneous outbreak of a number of very bad fires over a large area after a dry summer require any special explanation? Common sense says no, hence the large number of responses going pooh-pooh to this retired engineer who's reviving a 130-year-old crackpot theory, with his own twist: frozen methane, which unfortunately for his theory will not start fires, but only create, well, you know what. However, the characteristics of these fires are so abnormal that from the very day they occurred they have been considered mysterious. Peshtigo was a town of mills and factories, 4 hotels, 15 stores, and 360 homes, and a total population of 2000 people. In minutes, 1152 people died. The conditions were hot, dry, and WINDLESS. The same conditions prevailed at all the sites of the 1871 fires. Stone buildings were reduced to calcinated ash. One large house was observed to burst into flame and rise 85 feet in the air on its own updraft. Large numbers of victims had no burns or injuries; they simply suffocated in the oxygenless air (a demonstration, by the way, that this was not a fire accelerated by wind). The largest number of survivors escaped into the woods surrounding the town (demonstrating that was not a forest fire). A total of nine towns in four Wisconsin counties were essentially exterminated at the same time. In one town of 260, the death rate was 100%; no one survived. What happened in Peshtigo remained a mystery until after World War II. All the evidence and survivor testimony suggests it was a firestorm, a non-natural phenomenon which was employed as a weapon of war (once discovered by accident). The creation of a firestorm requires a concentrated stock of combustibles (a city), hot dry windless weather, and the simultaneous application of a large number, many thousands, of ignition sources. As a weapon of war, it is actually more devastating than nuclear weaponry (my opinion). Successful firestorm attacks in 1945 killed 85,000 people in Hamburg (the accident that, once explained, showed what a firestorm was), a quarter million people in Dresden, and nearly a million people in Tokyo. (Humans can always improve on things, can't they?) A firestorm is a multi-sourced fire so rapidly ignited over a large area of combustibles that temperature in the core region rises to thousands of degrees in minutes. The updrafts from this heat source achieve vertical velocities of hundreds of miles per hour. As a result, cool (heavy) oxygenated air from all directions is drawn inward at ground level at high speeds (50 to 100 mph) toward, but never reaching, the radiant core, the oxygen being totally depleted at the firewall or flame front before the core is reached. Firestorms spread upwind, that is, in all directions outward from the core, the firewall being the boundary between oxygenated and de-oxygenated air. The continuous influx of oxygen is the key; given enough radiant heat and oxygen, ANYTHING will burn. The mechanism is self-sustaining until every fuel source in the ever-expanding core (including the less familiar ones like stone, brick, some metals, and people) is exhausted. I'm not going to detail the more bizarre and Dantesque characteristics of a firestorm -- go read some history. But the key point for this discussion is the fact that a firestorm is not a natural phenomenon. It simply cannot happen unless human beings make it happen, as far as we know. The scale, speed, temperatures, and destruction produced by firestorms are without parallel in so-called natural events. They are an order of magnitude (or two or three) out of
[meteorite-list] Could this be a piece of meteorite from N.Y. State?
(Posted this last night but I don't think it got through. Apologies if it doubles up.) G'day List, I got an email from someone who found this specimen while prospecting in New York State. I've posted it The Meteorite 'Space'. Any opinions? http://www.meteoritesaustralia.com/space/ny.html Thanks, Jeff KuykenI.M.C.A. #3085www.meteoritesaustralia.com
[meteorite-list] Could An Asteroid Be Deflected?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2148924.stm Could an asteroid be deflected? Near miss or impact? It is too early to tell By Ivan Noble BBC News July 24, 2002 It will take weeks or even months before astronomers will be able to confirm their suspicion that asteroid 2002 NT7 will pass very close to but not hit the Earth early in 2019. As further observations accrue, we'll probably find that what is currently a possible hit will become a near miss, Professor Mark Bailey, director of the Armagh Observatory in Northern Ireland, told BBC News Online. In the very unlikely event that 2002 NT7 did turn out to be on a direct collision course, astronomers would have plenty of time to make accurate predictions about the time and location of the impact, and, with luck, to come up with a plan to deflect it. It's not like dealing with space debris, where the object may be irregularly shaped and tumbling and where even hours before impact you don't know exactly when and where it's going to come down, said Professor Bailey. With an asteroid impact, it's more like when Shoemaker-Levy 9 hit Jupiter. There we were able to calculate the exact time of impact almost to the second, he said. Asteroid rendezvous In the most unlikely event that it were on collision course, there would be no more important project than to try to deflect it, he added. It orbits roughly every 2.2 years, so there would be several opportunities to rendezvous with it. There'd be opportunity to assess what it's made of, find out whether it's made of rock and ice, or iron, whether it's a rubble pile or a solid body. It would make sense to put a beacon on it so that you'd then have a very precise knowledge of its orbit, Professor Bailey said. No-one has yet seriously tried to come up with a plan to deflect an incoming asteroid, but given years of warning and an asteroid which orbits relatively frequently, giving it a small nudge early on might do the trick. Relatively benign deviations imparted years ahead are magnified each time the asteroid goes around the Sun and would hopefully be enough to turn a projected impact into a near miss. Solar option One could even imagine landing on it and firing a rocket engine. People have talked about some kind of a mass driver, where pieces of rock would somehow be broken off the asteroid and cast off into space. Even a solar sail might be a possibility, Professor Bailey told BBC News Online. Such a device might catch the solar wind - a constant stream of particles emanating from the Sun - and use the small but significant energy they carry to cause a tiny deflection in the asteroid's path. __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
