Re: [meteorite-list] Fwd: Lots of Gold and Meteorites on Heritage Auctions

[Adam Hupe via Meteorite-list]

Jason,

Speaking of "gaslighting", you once bragged about majoring in 
psychology. Professionals in other parts of the country avoid slang 
terms.  In slang terms, you are "gaslighting" by accusing me of 
"gaslighting."


The exact location of NWA 1110 is known and the Meteoritical Society 
approved the entire lot making it official.  Apparently they had faith 
in the classifying scientist.  Images were captured of the crude 
recovery operation using a motorcycle fender as a shovel and and a 
window screen as a sieve. NASA liked these images so much they there 
were posted in the hallway outside the Lunar Receiving Laboratory at the 
Lydon B. Johnson Space Center the last time I was there.


Link to images:
http://www.lunarrock.com/meteorites/martian/nwa1110.html

Your argument about NWA 869 holds no water either since a special 
exception was made for this particular meteorite in regards to pairings. 
  No such exception has ever been made for any other meteorites that I 
am aware of.


We have been through this debate before as you state. That is why I am 
not going to waste much time with you.  You wasted many hours of the all 
volunteer board of the IMCA several years ago with your false 
accusations and a complaint against yourself.  You accused half of the 
board members on the IMCA of the same thing you were accused of in an 
attempt to redirect blame which sounds like "gaslighting" to me.  They 
dismissed your complaints due to a lack of merit.


The complaint against you, on the other hand, about self-pairing a Black 
Beauty stone, which was never paid for according to the seller, resulted 
in a different outcome.  This is one of many reasons your membership was 
revoked and any level of respect you once had, dissipated.


You went onto creating a "Meteorite Dealer Hall OF Shame" list according 
to a reliable source.  I heard this list will be updated soon. Good luck 
with the legal repercussions.


If I were you, I would worry more about your Social Media Profile since 
you were or are planning a career in meteoritics and all your 
badmouthing and posturing has not gone unnoticed.


It is interesting that guilty parties nearly always accuse their 
accusers of what they are guilty of themselves.


Adam


On 11/4/2017 12:13 PM, Jason Utas wrote:

We've had this discussion before, Adam.  You're gaslighting.

The pairing rules are very clear and can be read in section 4.2 (a) and 
(b) of this link: https://www.lpi.usra.edu/meteor/docs/nc-guidelines.pdf


Key statements:
1) "a single (collective) name may be given in cases where fragments fit 
together or similar-looking fragments are found within a few meters of 
each other"
2) "Two or more newly discovered meteorites in dense collection areas 
may be considered paired with each other or with another formally named 
meteorite if there is overwhelming evidence, including geographic data 
that are consistent with the meteorites being part of a single fall."


When you buy a bag of "NWA 1110" from a dealer in Morocco, you have no 
idea where they're from or if they were actually picked up in the same 
place.  Every single fragment needs to get its own NWA number and needs 
to be analyzed.  Type specimen, etc.  Unless the fragments physically 
fit together and/or you have an in-situ photo showing them sitting 
together on the ground, you're breaking Nomenclature Committee guidelines.


You can't just "pair" a pile of stones by looking at them, or by having 
someone else look at them.  You can have them all analyzed and show that 
they're internally *identical.*  Doesn't matter.  They all need their 
own NWA numbers and type specimens.


And don't just think this applies only to planetaries.  You bought a 20 
kilogram sack of "NWA 869?"  Every single stone needs to be cut and 
analyzed if you're going to sell it as NWA 869.  Except...you can't even 
do that.  Even if they are all analyzed and all fall in the range of 
L3.8-6, like NWA 869, each fragment will still need its own NWA number 
because you still don't have any proof of where they were found.


Those are the rules, and you've broken just as many of them as anyone 
else.  These are guidelines written for scientists, by scientists.  This 
is how stones are recovered and dealt with in places like Antarctica.  
Every detail of a stone's recovery is meticulously recorded, and every 
(sub-gram!) fragment is analyzed.  The only people I know who have 
followed such guidelines are the hunters in DCAs like Skip Wilson, who 
actually record every single stone they find.


You -- and every other collector and dealer -- have played by different 
rules.  Even the IMCA has bought into a different set of rules that 
protect dealer interests: they say that you can't use "another meteorite 
dealer's NWA number," but once you get a stone analyzed, you're allowed 
to "self-pair" anything you want to that analysis, essentially without 
scrutiny.  This has led to a fair amount of misrepresented material in 

Re: [meteorite-list] Fwd: Lots of Gold and Meteorites on Heritage Auctions

[Jason Utas via Meteorite-list]

We've had this discussion before, Adam.  You're gaslighting.

The pairing rules are very clear and can be read in section 4.2 (a) and (b)
of this link: https://www.lpi.usra.edu/meteor/docs/nc-guidelines.pdf

Key statements:
1) "a single (collective) name may be given in cases where fragments fit
together or similar-looking fragments are found within a few meters of each
other"
2) "Two or more newly discovered meteorites in dense collection areas may
be considered paired with each other or with another formally named
meteorite if there is overwhelming evidence, including geographic data that
are consistent with the meteorites being part of a single fall."

When you buy a bag of "NWA 1110" from a dealer in Morocco, you have no idea
where they're from or if they were actually picked up in the same place.
Every single fragment needs to get its own NWA number and needs to be
analyzed.  Type specimen, etc.  Unless the fragments physically fit
together and/or you have an in-situ photo showing them sitting together on
the ground, you're breaking Nomenclature Committee guidelines.

You can't just "pair" a pile of stones by looking at them, or by having
someone else look at them.  You can have them all analyzed and show that
they're internally *identical.*  Doesn't matter.  They all need their own
NWA numbers and type specimens.

And don't just think this applies only to planetaries.  You bought a 20
kilogram sack of "NWA 869?"  Every single stone needs to be cut and
analyzed if you're going to sell it as NWA 869.  Except...you can't even do
that.  Even if they are all analyzed and all fall in the range of L3.8-6,
like NWA 869, each fragment will still need its own NWA number because you
still don't have any proof of where they were found.

Those are the rules, and you've broken just as many of them as anyone
else.  These are guidelines written for scientists, by scientists.  This is
how stones are recovered and dealt with in places like Antarctica.  Every
detail of a stone's recovery is meticulously recorded, and every
(sub-gram!) fragment is analyzed.  The only people I know who have followed
such guidelines are the hunters in DCAs like Skip Wilson, who actually
record every single stone they find.

You -- and every other collector and dealer -- have played by different
rules.  Even the IMCA has bought into a different set of rules that protect
dealer interests: they say that you can't use "another meteorite dealer's
NWA number," but once you get a stone analyzed, you're allowed to
"self-pair" anything you want to that analysis, essentially without
scrutiny.  This has led to a fair amount of misrepresented material in
circulation, from "NWA 869," to the mix-and-match Martian and Lunar
pairings of recent years.

Nomenclature Committee guidelines haven't been followed since NWA
meteorites were in the single digits, by you or anyone else.  As John Shea
said before, pairing material at one's discretion is only as reliable as
the dealer doing it.

Jason







On Sat, Nov 4, 2017 at 10:30 AM, Adam Hupe via Meteorite-list <
meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> wrote:

>
> Thank you for the last word and the concern for my reputation.  These
> piggy-backing and self-pairing debates have gone on long before you became
> in interested in meteorites.
>
> My advice, since you are a member, is to read the IMCA bylaws which are
> all about authenticity and adhering to Meteoritical Society rules which do
> not support piggy-backing and self-pairing.
>
> Adam
>
>
>
>
>
> On 11/4/2017 10:20 AM, Martin Goff wrote:
>
>> Adam,
>>
>> I am more than comfortable with my reputation and what I have
>> contributed to the world of meteorites. I don't need to blow smoke up
>> my arse or have the need to constantly have others prop up my fragile
>> ego. As for your opinion of me, well it's quite obvious I could not
>> care a jot what your opinion is, it is meaningless to me as it is to
>> most! (a fact that is backed up by all of the messages I've had in
>> private :-)) And as for calling you out,  whether on this list or on
>> Facebook, how you can state that that is 'behind your back' just shows
>> your levels of paranoid delusion! This list and facebook are both
>> public forums and I am more than happy to speak my mind on either!
>>
>> And as for the rest of your garbled message, if it was actually
>> coherent, readable and understandable then I might be able to
>> reply..
>>
>> But, as Johannes says folk are here to talk about meteorites so I
>> won't bore them by responding further. However I'm more than sure that
>> you'll want to have the final word and cement your reputation as
>> someone who is losing the plot by clambering onto your rickety soapbox
>> and ranting further whilst dribbling into your bib..
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Martin
>>
>> Martin Goff
>> www.msg-meteorites.co.uk
>> International Meteorite Collectors Association (IMCA) member #3387
>>
>>
>>
>> On 4 Nov 2017 16:50, "Adam Hupe via Meteorite-list"

Re: [meteorite-list] Fwd: Lots of Gold and Meteorites on Heritage Auctions

[Adam Hupe via Meteorite-list]

Thank you for the last word and the concern for my reputation.  These 
piggy-backing and self-pairing debates have gone on long before you 
became in interested in meteorites.


My advice, since you are a member, is to read the IMCA bylaws which are 
all about authenticity and adhering to Meteoritical Society rules which 
do not support piggy-backing and self-pairing.


Adam




On 11/4/2017 10:20 AM, Martin Goff wrote:

Adam,

I am more than comfortable with my reputation and what I have
contributed to the world of meteorites. I don't need to blow smoke up
my arse or have the need to constantly have others prop up my fragile
ego. As for your opinion of me, well it's quite obvious I could not
care a jot what your opinion is, it is meaningless to me as it is to
most! (a fact that is backed up by all of the messages I've had in
private :-)) And as for calling you out,  whether on this list or on
Facebook, how you can state that that is 'behind your back' just shows
your levels of paranoid delusion! This list and facebook are both
public forums and I am more than happy to speak my mind on either!

And as for the rest of your garbled message, if it was actually
coherent, readable and understandable then I might be able to
reply..

But, as Johannes says folk are here to talk about meteorites so I
won't bore them by responding further. However I'm more than sure that
you'll want to have the final word and cement your reputation as
someone who is losing the plot by clambering onto your rickety soapbox
and ranting further whilst dribbling into your bib..

Cheers

Martin

Martin Goff
www.msg-meteorites.co.uk
International Meteorite Collectors Association (IMCA) member #3387



On 4 Nov 2017 16:50, "Adam Hupe via Meteorite-list"
 wrote:


A none answer is still an answer.  I will take it that you have made no 
contributions in the short time you have been into meteorites.

Here are a few quotes from you about me on Facebook from Martin Goff; "He is pompous prick! 
Just dissing everyone else to try and keep the crown on NWA 5000" and, "He keeps on 
saying he is leaving meteorites and most folk wish he'd just do as he says."  I wont post 
the latest comments on Facebook since they are mainly posted by dealers and demonstrate high level 
of immaturity.  Talking behind somebodies back is a sign cowardice, a trait wherein fear and 
excessive self concern override good judgement.

You and others have an interest in Black Beauty may be one reasons you are 
speaking out.  Collectors deserve to know that are thousands of grams of this 
material being held back and not reported.

Curious minds want to know what contributions you have made giving you the 
right questions others true colors?

There are dust makers and dust eaters.

Adam



On 11/4/2017 9:24 AM, Martin Goff wrote:


Adam, if  you weren't blinded by pomposity and your own bloated sense
of self worth then you'd know exactly what my contributions were/are
to the meteorite community. Your inflated sense of self importance and
continued self stimulation of blowing your own trumpet means that as
Jason says, people will call you out. If it wasn't for your continued
bullshit spout out to this list folk would just ignore you, as they
have for years..

Cheers

Martin


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Re: [meteorite-list] Fwd: Lots of Gold and Meteorites on Heritage Auctions

[Martin Goff via Meteorite-list]

Adam,

I am more than comfortable with my reputation and what I have
contributed to the world of meteorites. I don't need to blow smoke up
my arse or have the need to constantly have others prop up my fragile
ego. As for your opinion of me, well it's quite obvious I could not
care a jot what your opinion is, it is meaningless to me as it is to
most! (a fact that is backed up by all of the messages I've had in
private :-)) And as for calling you out,  whether on this list or on
Facebook, how you can state that that is 'behind your back' just shows
your levels of paranoid delusion! This list and facebook are both
public forums and I am more than happy to speak my mind on either!

And as for the rest of your garbled message, if it was actually
coherent, readable and understandable then I might be able to
reply..

But, as Johannes says folk are here to talk about meteorites so I
won't bore them by responding further. However I'm more than sure that
you'll want to have the final word and cement your reputation as
someone who is losing the plot by clambering onto your rickety soapbox
and ranting further whilst dribbling into your bib..

Cheers

Martin

Martin Goff
www.msg-meteorites.co.uk
International Meteorite Collectors Association (IMCA) member #3387



On 4 Nov 2017 16:50, "Adam Hupe via Meteorite-list"
 wrote:
>
> A none answer is still an answer.  I will take it that you have made no 
> contributions in the short time you have been into meteorites.
>
> Here are a few quotes from you about me on Facebook from Martin Goff; "He is 
> pompous prick! Just dissing everyone else to try and keep the crown on NWA 
> 5000" and, "He keeps on saying he is leaving meteorites and most folk wish 
> he'd just do as he says."  I wont post the latest comments on Facebook 
> since they are mainly posted by dealers and demonstrate high level of 
> immaturity.  Talking behind somebodies back is a sign cowardice, a trait 
> wherein fear and excessive self concern override good judgement.
>
> You and others have an interest in Black Beauty may be one reasons you are 
> speaking out.  Collectors deserve to know that are thousands of grams of this 
> material being held back and not reported.
>
> Curious minds want to know what contributions you have made giving you the 
> right questions others true colors?
>
> There are dust makers and dust eaters.
>
> Adam
>
>
>
> On 11/4/2017 9:24 AM, Martin Goff wrote:
>>
>> Adam, if  you weren't blinded by pomposity and your own bloated sense
>> of self worth then you'd know exactly what my contributions were/are
>> to the meteorite community. Your inflated sense of self importance and
>> continued self stimulation of blowing your own trumpet means that as
>> Jason says, people will call you out. If it wasn't for your continued
>> bullshit spout out to this list folk would just ignore you, as they
>> have for years..
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Martin
>>
> __
>
> Visit our Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/meteoritecentral and the 
> Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com
> Meteorite-list mailing list
> Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
> https://pairlist3.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
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Re: [meteorite-list] Fwd: Lots of Gold and Meteorites on Heritage Auctions

[Adam Hupe via Meteorite-list]

A none answer is still an answer.  I will take it that you have made no 
contributions in the short time you have been into meteorites.


Here are a few quotes from you about me on Facebook from Martin Goff; 
"He is pompous prick! Just dissing everyone else to try and keep the 
crown on NWA 5000" and, "He keeps on saying he is leaving meteorites and 
most folk wish he'd just do as he says."  I wont post the latest 
comments on Facebook since they are mainly posted by dealers and 
demonstrate high level of immaturity.  Talking behind somebodies back is 
a sign cowardice, a trait wherein fear and excessive self concern 
override good judgement.


You and others have an interest in Black Beauty may be one reasons you 
are speaking out.  Collectors deserve to know that are thousands of 
grams of this material being held back and not reported.


Curious minds want to know what contributions you have made giving you 
the right questions others true colors?


There are dust makers and dust eaters.

Adam


On 11/4/2017 9:24 AM, Martin Goff wrote:

Adam, if  you weren't blinded by pomposity and your own bloated sense
of self worth then you'd know exactly what my contributions were/are
to the meteorite community. Your inflated sense of self importance and
continued self stimulation of blowing your own trumpet means that as
Jason says, people will call you out. If it wasn't for your continued
bullshit spout out to this list folk would just ignore you, as they
have for years..

Cheers

Martin


__

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Re: [meteorite-list] Fwd: Lots of Gold and Meteorites on Heritage Auctions

[Bigjohn Shea via Meteorite-list]

I think most of the list members are just ready for this conversation to go 
away, and I really don't blame them... So I'm going to stop contributing to it. 

I will add that whatever I have contributed to the world of Meteoritics, Martin 
has contributed an exponentially greater amount.

Take care, Adam...

John A. Shea, MD
IMCA 3295



Sent using the mail.com mail app

On 11/4/17 at 11:06 AM, Adam Hupe via Meteorite-list wrote:

> Wow, such animosity.  I am comfortable with my true colors if it means 
> exposing less than honorable behavior that diminishes our avocation.  It 
> is interesting that the same people always speak out, here and on Facebook.
> 
> Perhaps Martin and John can fill us all in on their contributions to the 
> meteorite collecting community?
> 
> I am sure list members would love to know.
> 
> Adam
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 11/4/2017 8:51 AM, Martin Goff via Meteorite-list wrote:
> > Johannes,
> > 
> > Adam's true colours were revealed a long time ago which is why
> > everyone ignores his rants here on the metlist. He likes the sound of
> > his own voice and stands on his soapbox and shouts into empty space.
> > He is a hypocrit who is under the illusion that what he thinks and
> > says is somehow respected whereas the truth is that very few respect
> > him and a lot of new collectors haven't a clue who he even is!  He is
> > no longer relavent and hasn't been for many years. Just ignore him,
> > everyone else does ..
> > 
> > Cheers
> > 
> > Martin
> > 
> > Martin Goff
> > www.msg-meteorites.co.uk
> > International Meteorite Collectors Association (IMCA) member #3387
> > 
> > On 4 Nov 2017 02:45, "Bigjohn Shea via Meteorite-list"
> >  wrote:
> >>
> >> It's too late to take the high road, Adam.
> >> Your true colors have been revealed.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Sent using the mail.com mail app
> >>
> >> On 11/3/17 at 9:42 PM, Adam Hupe wrote:
> >>
> >>> John,
> >>>
> >>> Posting private emails to the list is against the rules and in poor
> >>> taste.  I have wasted enough time with endless debates in the past with
> >>> this individual.
> >>>
> >>> Gain some character and a moral compass.  Piggy-backing and self-pairing
> >>> are not alright with honest dealers and collectors who take the extra
> >>> steps to insure authenticity above all else.
> >>>
> >>> Adam
> >> __
> >>
> >> Visit our Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/meteoritecentral and the 
> >> Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com
> >> Meteorite-list mailing list
> >> Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
> >> https://pairlist3.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
> > __
> > 
> > Visit our Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/meteoritecentral and the 
> > Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com
> > Meteorite-list mailing list
> > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
> > https://pairlist3.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
> > 
> __
> 
> Visit our Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/meteoritecentral and the 
> Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com
> Meteorite-list mailing list
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Re: [meteorite-list] Fwd: Lots of Gold and Meteorites on Heritage Auctions

[Martin Goff via Meteorite-list]

Adam, if  you weren't blinded by pomposity and your own bloated sense
of self worth then you'd know exactly what my contributions were/are
to the meteorite community. Your inflated sense of self importance and
continued self stimulation of blowing your own trumpet means that as
Jason says, people will call you out. If it wasn't for your continued
bullshit spout out to this list folk would just ignore you, as they
have for years..

Cheers

Martin

On 04/11/2017, Adam Hupe via Meteorite-list
 wrote:
> Wow, such animosity.  I am comfortable with my true colors if it means
> exposing less than honorable behavior that diminishes our avocation.  It
> is interesting that the same people always speak out, here and on Facebook.
>
> Perhaps Martin and John can fill us all in on their contributions to the
> meteorite collecting community?
>
> I am sure list members would love to know.
>
> Adam
>
>
>
>
> On 11/4/2017 8:51 AM, Martin Goff via Meteorite-list wrote:
>> Johannes,
>>
>> Adam's true colours were revealed a long time ago which is why
>> everyone ignores his rants here on the metlist. He likes the sound of
>> his own voice and stands on his soapbox and shouts into empty space.
>> He is a hypocrit who is under the illusion that what he thinks and
>> says is somehow respected whereas the truth is that very few respect
>> him and a lot of new collectors haven't a clue who he even is!  He is
>> no longer relavent and hasn't been for many years. Just ignore him,
>> everyone else does ..
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Martin
>>
>> Martin Goff
>> www.msg-meteorites.co.uk
>> International Meteorite Collectors Association (IMCA) member #3387
>>
>> On 4 Nov 2017 02:45, "Bigjohn Shea via Meteorite-list"
>>  wrote:
>>>
>>> It's too late to take the high road, Adam.
>>> Your true colors have been revealed.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent using the mail.com mail app
>>>
>>> On 11/3/17 at 9:42 PM, Adam Hupe wrote:
>>>
 John,

 Posting private emails to the list is against the rules and in poor
 taste.  I have wasted enough time with endless debates in the past with
 this individual.

 Gain some character and a moral compass.  Piggy-backing and self-pairing
 are not alright with honest dealers and collectors who take the extra
 steps to insure authenticity above all else.

 Adam
>>> __
>>>
>>> Visit our Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/meteoritecentral and the
>>> Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com
>>> Meteorite-list mailing list
>>> Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
>>> https://pairlist3.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>> __
>>
>> Visit our Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/meteoritecentral and the
>> Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com
>> Meteorite-list mailing list
>> Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
>> https://pairlist3.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>>
> __
>
> Visit our Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/meteoritecentral and the
> Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com
> Meteorite-list mailing list
> Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
> https://pairlist3.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>


-- 
Martin Goff
www.msg-meteorites.co.uk
IMCA #3387
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Re: [meteorite-list] Fwd: Lots of Gold and Meteorites on Heritage Auctions

[Adam Hupe via Meteorite-list]

Wow, such animosity.  I am comfortable with my true colors if it means 
exposing less than honorable behavior that diminishes our avocation.  It 
is interesting that the same people always speak out, here and on Facebook.


Perhaps Martin and John can fill us all in on their contributions to the 
meteorite collecting community?


I am sure list members would love to know.

Adam




On 11/4/2017 8:51 AM, Martin Goff via Meteorite-list wrote:

Johannes,

Adam's true colours were revealed a long time ago which is why
everyone ignores his rants here on the metlist. He likes the sound of
his own voice and stands on his soapbox and shouts into empty space.
He is a hypocrit who is under the illusion that what he thinks and
says is somehow respected whereas the truth is that very few respect
him and a lot of new collectors haven't a clue who he even is!  He is
no longer relavent and hasn't been for many years. Just ignore him,
everyone else does ..

Cheers

Martin

Martin Goff
www.msg-meteorites.co.uk
International Meteorite Collectors Association (IMCA) member #3387

On 4 Nov 2017 02:45, "Bigjohn Shea via Meteorite-list"
 wrote:


It's too late to take the high road, Adam.
Your true colors have been revealed.



Sent using the mail.com mail app

On 11/3/17 at 9:42 PM, Adam Hupe wrote:


John,

Posting private emails to the list is against the rules and in poor
taste.  I have wasted enough time with endless debates in the past with
this individual.

Gain some character and a moral compass.  Piggy-backing and self-pairing
are not alright with honest dealers and collectors who take the extra
steps to insure authenticity above all else.

Adam

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Re: [meteorite-list] Fwd: Lots of Gold and Meteorites on Heritage Auctions

[Martin Goff via Meteorite-list]

Johannes,

Adam's true colours were revealed a long time ago which is why
everyone ignores his rants here on the metlist. He likes the sound of
his own voice and stands on his soapbox and shouts into empty space.
He is a hypocrit who is under the illusion that what he thinks and
says is somehow respected whereas the truth is that very few respect
him and a lot of new collectors haven't a clue who he even is!  He is
no longer relavent and hasn't been for many years. Just ignore him,
everyone else does ..

Cheers

Martin

Martin Goff
www.msg-meteorites.co.uk
International Meteorite Collectors Association (IMCA) member #3387

On 4 Nov 2017 02:45, "Bigjohn Shea via Meteorite-list"
 wrote:
>
> It's too late to take the high road, Adam.
> Your true colors have been revealed.
>
>
>
> Sent using the mail.com mail app
>
> On 11/3/17 at 9:42 PM, Adam Hupe wrote:
>
> > John,
> >
> > Posting private emails to the list is against the rules and in poor
> > taste.  I have wasted enough time with endless debates in the past with
> > this individual.
> >
> > Gain some character and a moral compass.  Piggy-backing and self-pairing
> > are not alright with honest dealers and collectors who take the extra
> > steps to insure authenticity above all else.
> >
> > Adam
> __
>
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> Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com
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Re: [meteorite-list] Fwd: Lots of Gold and Meteorites on Heritage Auctions

[Bigjohn Shea via Meteorite-list]

It's too late to take the high road, Adam. 
Your true colors have been revealed.



Sent using the mail.com mail app

On 11/3/17 at 9:42 PM, Adam Hupe wrote:

> John,
> 
> Posting private emails to the list is against the rules and in poor 
> taste.  I have wasted enough time with endless debates in the past with 
> this individual.
> 
> Gain some character and a moral compass.  Piggy-backing and self-pairing 
> are not alright with honest dealers and collectors who take the extra 
> steps to insure authenticity above all else.
> 
> Adam
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Re: [meteorite-list] Fwd: Lots of Gold and Meteorites on Heritage Auctions

[Adam Hupe via Meteorite-list]

John,

Posting private emails to the list is against the rules and in poor 
taste.  I have wasted enough time with endless debates in the past with 
this individual.


Gain some character and a moral compass.  Piggy-backing and self-pairing 
are not alright with honest dealers and collectors who take the extra 
steps to insure authenticity above all else.


Adam

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Re: [meteorite-list] Fwd: Lots of Gold and Meteorites on Heritage Auctions

[Bigjohn Shea via Meteorite-list]

That's really sad, Adam...

How sad that after all your years of life and experience in the meteorite 
world, you failed to develop the skills you need to face a challenge from a 
peer with some dignity.



Sent using the mail.com mail app

On 11/3/17 at 7:49 PM, Jason Utas wrote:

> -- Forwarded message --
> From: Adam Hupe 
> Date: Fri, Nov 3, 2017 at 2:36 PM
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Lots of Gold and Meteorites on Heritage
> Auctions
> To: Jason Utas 
> 
> 
> 
> Jason,
> 
> You are worthless and a waste of time.  You have already been exposed and
> are a joke in academic circles.
> 
> Go argue with the losers on Facebook.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 11/3/2017 12:45 PM, Jason Utas wrote:
> 
> >I cleaned each individual and made sure the classifying scientist examined
> each and every one of them after a type specimen was submitted.
> 
> Hold the phone.  Someone simply *looked at* the stones to determine that
> they were paired!? You washed them, showed them to a third party, and
> they're paired?  That's "self-pairing," by a third party.
> 
> And it means that someone "qualified" can pair a meteorite to your
> standards, *just by looking at it.*  That's good to know.
> 
> What's the necessary degree?  Geology?  Or just analytical experience in
> general?  You and I both know that classifying scientists tend to be
> *worse* than experienced collectors or dealers at determining what a rock
> is, just by looking at it.  They don't usually see whole rocks.  They need
> a thin section and probe data before rendering a verdict.  Fe/Mn ratios.
> Oxygen isotopes.
> 
> John's completely right.  You're just using *other* purely subjective
> criteria to determine who's qualified to pair meteorites by looking at
> them.  But those criteria don't make any sense.  Most experienced dealers
> and collectors have seen more rare meteorites in hand sample than the
> average analytical scientist.
> 
> 
> And I'll mention again the mislabeled NWA 978 and "Tafrawet" we purchased
> directly from you, years ago [actually NWA 753 and a new IAB, NWA 3200].
> 
> Let me repeat myself.  You sold me this new iron meteorite
>  as a new mass of  this one
>  because you
> screwed up a self-pairing.
> 
> Honestly, the NWA 3200 should be enough to get you to put a pin in this.
> You sliced the iron and sold it on ebay in separate auctions.  We already
> had a piece of Tafrawet: I noticed that the pattern and inclusions were
> *completely* different.  We purchased all of the remaining slices, but you
> had already sold some via buy-it-now, as Tafrawet.  After giving a slice to
> UCLA -- yep, it was a new IAB, not even a IIIAB.  We tried to contact the
> other eBay buyers when it was all sorted out, but weren't able to reach all
> of them.  Oops.  Mislabeled material in circulation.  Must have been
> someone else's fault.
> 
> Peter mistakenly bought the *NWA 753* because we had a large fragment of
> it.  He wanted a slice to go with it.  He trusted your label.  Oops.  Wrong
> meteorite.
> 
> Heck, it's not like they look *remotely* similar.  Here's a slice of NWA 753
>  and one of NWA 978
> .  Those photos are from
> Mike Farmer's website.  A reputable dealer *who can tell the difference.*
> Maybe you just wanted to sell the more common R-chondrite as one with a
> smaller TKW?  I don't know.  And, at the end of the day, it doesn't
> matter.
> 
> That's just two examples in our cabinets.
> 
> You were just as guilty as any other dealer for a decade or so.  NWA 753,
> NWA 801, NWA 2969, etc., etc., etc.  You self-paired hundreds (thousands?)
> of ordinary chondrites, carbonaceous chondrites, irons, and achondrites.
> And I wouldn't be calling you out on this if you weren't being such a prick
> about it to everyone else.
> 
> I guess it's pretty easy to point fingers at new meteorites when you only
> have one stone left to sell.  And I doubt you paid less than the
> $10-15/gram the new Lunars are fetching.  That must be rough.  I can
> understand where you're coming from, but you're not going to get much
> sympathy if you carry on like this.
> 
> Jason
> 
> On Fri, Nov 3, 2017 at 11:17 AM, Adam Hupe via Meteorite-list <
> meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
> 
> > I reported every single stone in the NWA 1110 Martian pairing which
> > amounted to several dozen.  I cleaned each individual and made sure the
> > classifying scientist examined each and every one of them after a type
> > specimen was submitted.  Then an image was taken of the entire lot and
> > submitted to the Nomenclature Committee.  I generally avoid pairings since
> > they are so troublesome and are piggy-backed constantly.  Over ten lazy
> > dealers self-paired to NWA 1110 which was an official