[meteorite-list] NYT Story – Overseas and Local Distribution
“Overseas list members, if you have the opportunity, please peruse the International Herald Tribune to see if they picked up the story and run it in its entirety.” By searching the International Herald Tribune web site, I found that it was published in this newspaper on April 4 at: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/05/science/05meteorite.html?_r=1scp=1sq=meteoritesst=cse The entire story also appeared in the Sydney Morning Herald as “Souvenirs from space,” April 7, 2011, http://www.smh.com.au/world/science/souvenirs-from-space-20110406-1d4g9.html Also, it appeared at: 1. rssbroadcast,com, April 4, 2011 http://rssbroadcast.com/?p=40828 http://rssbroadcast.com/?p=40742 2. WA.today, Australia, April 6, 2011. http://www.watoday.com.au/world/science/souvenirs-from-space-20110406-1d4g9.html 3. Yahoo News http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NorthAmexemObservers/message/10634 4. Daily Comet, Lafourche Parish Louisiana http://www.dailycomet.com/article/NY/20110405/ZNYT03/104053033/1225/news100?Title=Black-Market-Trinkets-From-Space 5. A version of the New York Times story, “Il mercato nero dei meteoriti” appeared in the “Post” on April 6, 2011, http://www.ilpost.it/2011/04/06/il-mercato-nero-dei-meteoriti/ This entire text of this article is making the rounds of the Internet. This is something that definitely needs to be considered in any response. It certainly will make preparing an effective response to the article quite difficult as it is being reprinted, in some cases under different titles and in different languages, in a wild range of media outlets. To further complicate matters, the link to this article is being posted a number of web sites. For example; 1. Egyptology News at: http://egyptology.blogspot.com/2011/04/black-market-trinkets-from-space.html 2. environmental reporting at: http://word.emerson.edu/sprg11jr364/2011/04/04/black-market-trinkets-from-space/ and 3. American Scientist http://www.americanscientist.org/science/pub/-1875 Yours, Paul H __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NYT Story ? Overseas and Local Distribution
Paul and list, Thanks Paul for supplying the list with the various papers and websites that are carrying the NYT article. I was especially disappointed to see The American Scientist carrying the story with the first threw paragraphs and then when you click on see more it goes to the NYT website with the entire story and photos. I'm saddened that the American Scientist apparently didn't do any legwork to review the story or do any of their own research before blindly posting it. I'm guessing it doesn't take much anymore to call yourself a scientist in America or the world. I'm sure Ben Franklin, Thomas Alva Edison and Albert Einstein must be rolling over in their graves now. I have been preparing a response to the article in the NYT and as others have mentioned it may not do any good with the Times, but at this point it's gone almost viral worldwide. It's a pity that there aren't more responsible journalist out there. I fear as Adam Hupe and others have mentioned that the damage is done. This almost surreal smear campaign has taken on a life of its own and I'm still curious as to why the writer Mr. Broad with the NYT decided to chose his words so vehemently as to sound to critical and to apparently not give much thought as to the sensationalism of how be constructed the article nor to the outcome and repercussions of what would come to the meteorite community. Hoping for a better rest of the week and month after this. All the best! Brian -- Message: 2 Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2011 6:48:33 -0500 From: Paul H. oxytropidoce...@cox.net Subject: [meteorite-list] NYT Story ? Overseas and Local Distribution To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Message-ID: 20110407074833.O0X65.28280.imail@eastrmwml37 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 ?Overseas list members, if you have the opportunity, please peruse the International Herald Tribune to see if they picked up the story and run it in its entirety.? By searching the International Herald Tribune web site, I found that it was published in this newspaper on April 4 at: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/05/science/05meteorite.html?_r=1scp=1sq=meteoritesst=cse The entire story also appeared in the Sydney Morning Herald as ?Souvenirs from space,? April 7, 2011, http://www.smh.com.au/world/science/souvenirs-from-space-20110406-1d4g9.html Also, it appeared at: 1. rssbroadcast,com, April 4, 2011 http://rssbroadcast.com/?p=40828 http://rssbroadcast.com/?p=40742 2. WA.today, Australia, April 6, 2011. http://www.watoday.com.au/world/science/souvenirs-from-space-20110406-1d4g9.html 3. Yahoo News http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NorthAmexemObservers/message/10634 4. Daily Comet, Lafourche Parish Louisiana http://www.dailycomet.com/article/NY/20110405/ZNYT03/104053033/1225/news100?Title=Black-Market-Trinkets-From-Space 5. A version of the New York Times story, ?Il mercato nero dei meteoriti? appeared in the ?Post? on April 6, 2011, http://www.ilpost.it/2011/04/06/il-mercato-nero-dei-meteoriti/ This entire text of this article is making the rounds of the Internet. This is something that definitely needs to be considered in any response. It certainly will make preparing an effective response to the article quite difficult as it is being reprinted, in some cases under different titles and in different languages, in a wild range of media outlets. To further complicate matters, the link to this article is being posted a number of web sites. For example; 1. Egyptology News at: http://egyptology.blogspot.com/2011/04/black-market-trinkets-from-space.html 2. environmental reporting at: http://word.emerson.edu/sprg11jr364/2011/04/04/black-market-trinkets-from-space/ and 3. American Scientist http://www.americanscientist.org/science/pub/-1875 Yours, Paul H __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] NYT story
Hello Agee and Listers, Agee thank you for sharing your side of your story. I have to say I have read the NYT again and WOW. But again the title says it all.Black-Market Trinkets From Space. The bias started off right in the title and the writer did a good job with getting readership, but in a bad way. I am not much of a person to keep up with NYT but I have to say he sure did know how to write a title. At first I didn't notice it but then the word Trinkets popped. I am confused how the writer is demoting meteorite to mere trinkets that you get at a carnival or some quarter machine. Do people sell Trinkets on the BLACK MARKET No they sell big guns, and other expensive multi billion dollar items. It just shows that the NYT thinks this topic is a joke and all they need and want ratings. Black Market in any title will make people stop and take a look at the article. But I do have to say out of this negative reporting it has promoted an awareness about meteorites and how important they are for science and history. As days pass and I learn more about new discoveries or old ones from historic books, I learn more about who we are as humans and how important these rocks are to us. I am fascinated by the rich stories and the new discoveries that can piece together it started. However, this isn't the first time this has happened where people ride off each other for profit. Its been done from the first meteorite fall and will continue to do so because of the value that is put forth on meteorites and how they play a key role in understanding the universe. I just hope that science and collectors keep working together and making history happen as apposed to some other countries that have law on meteorite. Shawn Alan IMCA 1633 eBaystore http://shop.ebay.com/photophlow/m.html [meteorite-list] NYT storyCarl Agee agee at unm.edu Tue Apr 5 11:28:10 EDT 2011 Previous message: [meteorite-list] Doug Next message: [meteorite-list] NYT story Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] Since I am quoted in this article, here’s my reaction to it. The reporter seems very confused, in that he lumps together a story about the Gebel Kamil crater in Egypt and the legal meteorite trade (NWA) based primarily in Morocco. During the interview with him I spent a fair amount of time trying to explain to him how beneficial the NWA’s have been for planetary science research. For example, I mentioned how the number of rare Angrite meteorites has more than doubled due to African finds – a huge enhancement to our understanding of the early solar system, and of course I mentioned all the lunars and martians, and other rare classes. I told him that I was not terribly well informed about the Gebel Kamil crater situation, but in my opinion the highest priority would be to protect the impact structure from degradation as these are quite rare on Earth. I also told him, that the Gebel Kamil meteorites on the other hand, are probably not hard to come by, and I’m sure if I wanted to study one for research, I could get a sample at a reasonable price or even get one as a donation from a collector, which museums benefit from frequently. I did get the feeling that he was hoping to hear something negative from me. As such he ended the interview rather quickly, but said something like “oh, the NWA meteorites sounds like an interesting story, I need to come back to that at a later time”. So of course I was disappointed to see what mess the final NYT version was. -- Carl B. Agee Director and Curator, Institute of Meteoritics Professor, Earth and Planetary Sciences MSC03 2050 University of New Mexico Albuquerque NM 87131-1126 Tel: (505) 750-7172 Fax: (505) 277-3577 Email: agee at unm.edu http://epswww.unm.edu/iom/pers/agee.html Previous message: [meteorite-list] Doug Next message: [meteorite-list] NYT story Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] More information about the Meteorite-list mailing list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NYT story
to the Natural History Museum in New York and if he have had a little talk with the meteorite curator there, Denton Ebel, he would have learned not only, that meteorite dealing and trade is as old as meteoritics, but also, that the main load of meteorites in the NY collection and the great stones and irons, the collection was founded with, were simply purchased from a big meteorite dealer: Henry Augustus Ward. Half of his private collection - the other half plus before some more was purchased from the Field museum, which was founded hence also solely with purchased material. That Fields, where the curators seem to have a problem to purchase desert meteorites, because they think, meteorite dealing would be a new phenomenon and that in former times their meteorites had fallen from the sky directly into their stock. And Ebel would have him perhaps too, that for their crown jewel, the fat Cape York, they had paid a million USD to the owner. These articles, that yelling, it comes always from single persons, mostly standing outside of meteorites. These are single opinions. In fact the overwhelming majority of scientists, private collectors, hunters and dealers - they are all very content, how things are going with meteorites, because such paradisiac times never existed before. Look Shawn, now that Dr. DiMartino. He is no meteoricists. He hasn't directly clues about that field, he is an astronomer. And he is silly. If you look in the Bulletins, there you find, that he once purchased an eucrite in Algeria (and the Algerians made a much larger drama than the Egyptians) and there isn't listed his institute as holder of the stone, but he as private person. Now back. Look market, black market. These articles and those who are fanning the flames, they always try to raise the impression, that millions of people after quitting time would go out and would dig up millions of meteorites, selling them for billions of dollars. They want to create a problem, where no problem is at all. (Why they are doing that? I can imagine). And that is the dangerous thing. Laws are made by politicians and administration. They read that bullshit in NYC, New Scientist, BBC.. and think - h - there seems to be an urgent problem, we have to do something! Of course - all people occupied with meteorites know, that this is a titanic humbug - but they can't know it. Profit. Shawn, I never met a person, who became wealthy during the last 10 years in dealing with meteorites. The times are long over and gone. Look today, we all, from the ominous goatherd up to the collectors who are financing that all, we made it possible that any provincial university or even college today can make serial examinations on such rare classes like mentioned above and that on more different samples, as they would get from the Antarctic leaning sytem, cause there weren't found so many. Of course Shawn, here and there might be curators moaning about having no budgets, but that's their job, to get things straight. Because most institutes have their budget in best order. And I always recommend, just browse a little bit around and check the budgets not only of meteorite institutes, but for other research projects and check the purchase budgets of other, also small museums, galleries and collections. And check the prices of the specimens on the major arts fairs. You will find out, that the annual World meteoritic turnover doesn't exceed the prices of one or two or high-end artifacts or pieces of art. So that debate is vain. More important are to answer the questions. If one would accede to the wishes of these yellers and if one would introduce such laws, what would that bring for an improvement for these yellers? Where would be the advantage? Would their budgets grow then? Would be meteorite then become cheaper? Would then more meteorites found on Earth? What would that mean for the recovery of the rare and scientifically especially interesting types? Would then end more material in the labs and national collections? Would you have then still that influx of material for free due to the classification process system? THOSE are the questions to be answered, before one thinks about banning all commerce. And partially they are already answered. In Australia. In Oman. In Libya. In South Africa. In Algeria. Shawn - one can like it or not - it has proved that there is simply and by far no such economic and efficient way for meteoritics to get the objects for their research - than to buy them from the professional private specialists. Best! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Shawn Alan Gesendet: Mittwoch, 6. April 2011 08:49 An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: [meteorite-list] NYT story Hello Agee and Listers, Agee thank you for sharing your side of your story. I have to say I
Re: [meteorite-list] NYT story
Why not have one of our esteemed members write a rebuttal and try for publication in one of New York's other main newspapers. After all, it's all about competition for readership for them. And a paper like the Wall Street Journal or New York Daily News, might wish to show how absurd the NYT article actually was. Dave --- On Wed, 4/6/11, Martin Altmann altm...@meteorite-martin.de wrote: From: Martin Altmann altm...@meteorite-martin.de Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NYT story To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Wednesday, April 6, 2011, 7:37 AM Hello Shawn, I think one aspect in your thoughts isn't fully correct. Understandable, because you're occupied with historical meteorites. Historical meteorites are by far the most expensive meteorites you can have. Why are they so expensive? Because of the poor availability. Why is so few available - rright, because the very most of their tkws is locked away in institutional collections. Hence they are not the problem, the researchers and scientists do already have them. Shawn, this material stems from the times, where there existed not more than 2000-3000 meteorites on the whole World. Times have changed. We have now a couple of tens of thousands meteorites more, within only 3 decades. The Antarctic ones and the desert finds. Meteorite science, the advance in knowledge, the new results - that all is done by means of these new finds. It's all about them. And they don't cost a thing anymore. That black market, profit thing - it is a true sham debate, a discussion nobody in expert circles is having, but which is carried in only from laymen from outside. You have to see the dimensions. Let me help you. Let's take the Bulletin Database. I give you now a summary by types of all that what was found - in 35 years - by ANSMET, NIPR, PRIC, KOREAMET, EUROMET together. And the same only for that what - in 11 years - was coming from NWA. Only NWA, the couple of thousands of entries for the other Sahara finds (the DaGs, HaHs, SAHs, Acfers, Tanezroufts) I leave out, as well as the complete Oman (Dhofar, JaH, Shisr...). Only NWA: Antarctica NWA Acap/Lod 2.73 kg 25.18 kg Angrites 0.02 kg 7.24 kg Brachinites 0.25 kg 8.16 kg Aubrites 5.37 kg 11.14 kg (still biased by some El Haggouina pairings) Carbonaceous CB 0.13 kg 0.90 kg CH 0.21 kg 0.42 kg CI 0.80 kg - CK 4.50 kg 32.86 kg CM 18.94 kg 5.98 kg CO 36.10 kg 20.29 kg CR 3.61 kg 10.85 kg CV 15.64 kg 81.30 kg Diogenites - 83.12 kg Eucrites 47.97 kg 116.56 kg Howardites 11.88 kg 32.63 kg K-Chondrites 0.02 kg - Lunar 5.43 kg 22.28 kg Martian 27.80 kg 8.15 kg Mesosiderites 34.06 kg 259.50 kg Pallasites 202.47 kg 6.25 kg R-Chondrites 1.38 kg 30.57 kg Ureilites 16.31 kg 49.40 kg Winonaites 0.08 kg 1.38 kg For the irons, I'm too lazy, there we have more from Antarctica than from NWA, And the ordinary chondrites.. well they are not so interesting and there are from Antarctica only 500 numbers with a larger tkw than 2.5kg. Hence a few single tons from whole Antarctica And anyway, to bring 1000 gallons of gasoline to the Pole costs as much to get a ton of ordinary chondrites from NWA delivered to the doorstep of the institute. So you see, of what small quantities we're talking at all. Seen the weights and the volume of money. Look the overall expenses for one single Antarctic meteorite season would easily have bought all that above listed desert completely. And if one would be so kind to spend another years expenses, with that money one could install in each and every Sahara country an university meteorite department equipped with a microprobe and pay there two meteoricists for the next 50 years. Money, profit motifs, that is a bugaboo of not so knowledgable people. Compared to quite any other university research or museums collecting activities, we're speaking with meteorites about peanuts. Neither any black market does exists, simply due to the lack of mass. Those articles always suggest, that the private collectors would buy up all new finds before the scientists could do that. Please Shawn - after Calcalong was forgotten, which two meteorites angered the scientists most? The two DaG-Moons. Now see Shawn - still today - after so long times and these two rocks were everything else than of the size of a mountain, you
Re: [meteorite-list] NYT story
Professor Agee, Thank you very much for coming onto the list and explaining your side of the story regarding your interview with the author of the story in the NYT. I certainly enjoyed reading your side of what you went through in the interview and it gave myself and I'm sure hundreds of others that read your post a better understanding of what the writer was interested in and that it seems to me that the author wasn't as interested in the facts that you gave him, but more in a sensationalistic story for Section D in Tuesday's paper. Thank you again for clarifying the misunderstandings that so many of us collectors had that love meteorites who were dumbfounded by the razor sharp barbs the writer used to lash out at our hobby and livelihood. Have a great day! Brian Cox Message: 3 Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 09:28:10 -0600 From: Carl Agee a...@unm.edu Subject: [meteorite-list] NYT story To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Message-ID: BANLkTi=2i-kl58mcb5thzqic1dsenez...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Since I am quoted in this article, here?s my reaction to it. The reporter seems very confused, in that he lumps together a story about the Gebel Kamil crater in Egypt and the legal meteorite trade (NWA) based primarily in Morocco. During the interview with him I spent a fair amount of time trying to explain to him how beneficial the NWA?s have been for planetary science research. For example, I mentioned how the number of rare Angrite meteorites has more than doubled due to African finds ? a huge enhancement to our understanding of the early solar system, and of course I mentioned all the lunars and martians, and other rare classes. I told him that I was not terribly well informed about the Gebel Kamil crater situation, but in my opinion the highest priority would be to protect the impact structure from degradation as these are quite rare on Earth. I also told him, that the Gebel Kamil meteorites on the other hand, are probably not hard to come by, and I?m sure if I wanted to study one for research, I could get a sample at a reasonable price or even get one as a donation from a collector, which museums benefit from frequently. I did get the feeling that he was hoping to hear something negative from me. As such he ended the interview rather quickly, but said something like ?oh, the NWA meteorites sounds like an interesting story, I need to come back to that at a later time?. So of course I was disappointed to see what mess the final NYT version was. -- Carl B. Agee Director and Curator, Institute of Meteoritics Professor, Earth and Planetary Sciences MSC03 2050 University of New Mexico Albuquerque NM 87131-1126 Tel: (505) 750-7172 Fax: (505) 277-3577 Email: a...@unm.edu http://epswww.unm.edu/iom/pers/agee.html __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NYT story
Hi all Yep I think it's me that is quoted in the NYT. I've deleted my latest post on CN due to harassment that turned up in my mail. Lars -Oprindelig meddelelse- Fra: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] På vegne af Peter Scherff Sendt: 6. april 2011 02:33 Til: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Emne: Re: [meteorite-list] NYT story Hi, The blog in question is the Cloudy Nights Space Rocks forum. The quote is from Lars Zielke. Thanks, Peter Scherff From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Meteorites USA Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2011 8:25 PM To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NYT story Very good catch on the Bob! I can't believe I missed that. How in the world did the editor let that quote slide without a source? I wonder if it was said at all. Regards, Eric On 4/5/2011 5:20 PM, Bob King wrote: Hi everyone, Besides the terrible reporting and obvious bias, I was curious about the meteorite blogger in the article who said he/she was feeling guilty. What?? We have no idea who this is or if that person exists. I find it amazing the editor let that go through. Bob __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1209 / Virus Database: 1500/3553 - Release Date: 04/05/11 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NYT story
Hi Lars and List, Nobody should harass you for expressing your feelings. Your heart was in the right place, and it is troublesome to consider that one might be unknowingly obstructing scientific work. In that case, like I said before, the scientific value of Gebel Kamil is not the meteorites themselves, but the impact crater. Owning a Gebel Kamil iron is not depriving science. But, whoever is harvesting the meteorites may be doing harm to the impact structure during the process of removing the specimens. We don't know this for sure, because we don't even know who exactly removed the specimens - we can only assume it was the Egyptians because of the location of the crater and dangerous nature of the area. (which is militarized and near the Sudanese border) I think it is unfortunate that anyone should harass you over this. Your comment was made long ago, when the Gebel Kamil story was new and facts were still emerging. The whole story was not known then, and it is still not known now. As we discussed in the blog thread, there may be an ethical grey-area involved in the removal of the meteorites, but it was very premature (and unnecessary) for the NYT writer to unilaterally proclaim the entire meteorite world as a black market - that was wrong and libelous. Best regards, MikeG -- Mike Gilmer - Galactic Stone Ironworks Meteorites Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone News Feed - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 Twitter - http://twitter.com/galacticstone EOM - http://www.encyclopedia-of-meteorites.com/collection.aspx?id=1564 --- On 4/6/11, Lars Zielke zie...@nightsky.dk wrote: Hi all Yep I think it's me that is quoted in the NYT. I've deleted my latest post on CN due to harassment that turned up in my mail. Lars -Oprindelig meddelelse- Fra: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] På vegne af Peter Scherff Sendt: 6. april 2011 02:33 Til: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Emne: Re: [meteorite-list] NYT story Hi, The “blog” in question is the Cloudy Nights Space Rocks forum. The quote is from Lars Zielke. Thanks, Peter Scherff From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Meteorites USA Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2011 8:25 PM To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NYT story Very good catch on the Bob! I can't believe I missed that. How in the world did the editor let that quote slide without a source? I wonder if it was said at all. Regards, Eric On 4/5/2011 5:20 PM, Bob King wrote: Hi everyone, Besides the terrible reporting and obvious bias, I was curious about the meteorite blogger in the article who said he/she was feeling guilty. What?? We have no idea who this is or if that person exists. I find it amazing the editor let that go through. Bob __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1209 / Virus Database: 1500/3553 - Release Date: 04/05/11 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list -- __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NYT story
Hello everybody, Thank you Eric, and you are quite right, this was not an exact quote! ;-) My interview lasted quite a bit longer than yours, but he only asked about the meteorite world and market in general terms, and never mentioned Gemel Kamil. I have been doing some research, and contacting people, and I am now writing a point by point rebuttal that will be published in the April issue of Insights, the IMCA newsletter, in just a few days. Just a bit of patience please. Thanks. Anne M. Black _http://www.impactika.com/_ (http://www.impactika.com/) _IMPACTIKA@aol.com_ (mailto:impact...@aol.com) President, I.M.C.A. Inc. _http://www.imca.cc/_ (http://www.imca.cc/) In a message dated 4/5/2011 3:39:30 PM Mountain Daylight Time, star-b...@tx.rr.com writes: I was driving home on Friday when a guy called and identified himself as a reporter from the NY Times. He said he talked to this scientist (I didn't catch the name) who thought collectors were bad for meteorite studies and then he said he talked to Anne Black and she said that was B*** S***! I remember thinking that I doubted Anne used that phrase ;-) He asked me about gebel kamil and exporting it from Egypt. I told him I knew of no law in Egypt that even mentions meteorites let alone making export illegal. I told him that there were laws about artifacts, but they don't mention meteorites and meteorites are not artifacts. I never said I thought I was beyond Egyptian law because my gebel kamil was purchased in the USA, I just didn't know of any law that applied. Conversation ended quickly after that. The photo of the looted 60 gram piece is not one of mine. I was surprised to be the featured bad guy/dealer in the article. According to my cell phone the whole conversation lasted only 4 minutes and 26 seconds. The response on my end has been rather quiet, 3 new customers, 2 people who wanted their hematite identified as a meteorite, one guy from the Harvard business school who thought we should get with the scientists and come up with a classification system because that would make everybody happy and the meteorites worth more (told him the reporter forgot to mention such a thing already existed), one guy that thought it was an interesting story and wanted help make an Indiana Jones type movie out of it (sent him to Mike Farmer), and one liberal retard who vented not only on stealing history, destroying the environment, but also on Arizona psychos selling automatic weapons etc, etc, etc. Another quiet day at the office. Eric Olson http://www.star-bits.com __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] NYT story
Hello Martin I would have to agree people have their own neish when it comes to meteorites and as you can see ordinary meteorites to you are not interesting. But to science ordinary or not, meteorites play a pivotal roll in the exploration of new discoveries of where we came from, who are we, where we are going, and these are questions we will continue to try to answer till we cease to exist. I see that NYT is banking off the scientific importance meteorites have for science and are banking off how they can get more readerships from an article about rocks from space. It says it all in the title…. Black-Market Trinkets From Space. That would get my attention even if it was not about space. It could even say Black-Market knitting trades, or Black-Market coin collecting trades. That phase will lure anyone into reading that article, which I have to say is bad reporting on their part but good for readership. The real problem isn’t that we as a society have gotten bumber, it’s that our lexicon has changed and the way we perceive reality has shifted to more on glorifying the negative, glorifying corruption and focusing on tabloids that sensationalize GET RICH trends. NYT knew that a normal story about meteorites wouldn’t pull in readership, meaning the mass. How could they make a simple article seem more appealing to all and they found it. Corruption, stealing, illegal trading, Black-Market, makes for a good sci fi thriller, however the real picture on how meteorites are collected and used for science is false. As you can see NYT isn’t a place for scholarly articles but a place to be informed on uniformed articles. As for the real trading that goes one I have to agree that what you said is dead on. The market isn’t made up of millions and billions of dollars to be had, but it’s made up of meteorites collected from around the world. These specimens from the far reaches of the dry desert sands, to the white snow caps of Antarctica, to locked up historic meteorites in institutions and museums all have a common goal, to progress science and the understanding of evolution of the universe. I do wish that the NYT hadn’t said what they said, but they did, and all we can do is move forward. I like to focus on the positive side, even if it’s from the negative. I can say this, the article in NYT has brought the science and meteorite colleting world even closers, and by doing so, we as a group will have a stronger understanding where we stand when it comes to meteorites and the place they hold in the evolution of the universe. Shawn Alan IMCA 1633 eBaystore http://shop.ebay.com/photophlow/m.html [meteorite-list] NYT story Martin Altmann altmann at meteorite-martin.de Wed Apr 6 07:37:17 EDT 2011 Previous message: [meteorite-list] NYT story Next message: [meteorite-list] NYT story Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] Hello Shawn, I think one aspect in your thoughts isn't fully correct. Understandable, because you're occupied with historical meteorites. Historical meteorites are by far the most expensive meteorites you can have. Why are they so expensive? Because of the poor availability. Why is so few available - rright, because the very most of their tkws is locked away in institutional collections. Hence they are not the problem, the researchers and scientists do already have them. Shawn, this material stems from the times, where there existed not more than 2000-3000 meteorites on the whole World. Times have changed. We have now a couple of tens of thousands meteorites more, within only 3 decades. The Antarctic ones and the desert finds. Meteorite science, the advance in knowledge, the new results - that all is done by means of these new finds. It's all about them. And they don't cost a thing anymore. That black market, profit thing - it is a true sham debate, a discussion nobody in expert circles is having, but which is carried in only from laymen from outside. You have to see the dimensions. Let me help you. Let's take the Bulletin Database. I give you now a summary by types of all that what was found - in 35 years - by ANSMET, NIPR, PRIC, KOREAMET, EUROMET together. And the same only for that what - in 11 years - was coming from NWA. Only NWA, the couple of thousands of entries for the other Sahara finds (the DaGs, HaHs, SAHs, Acfers, Tanezroufts) I leave out, as well as the complete Oman (Dhofar, JaH, Shisr...). Only NWA: Antarctica NWA Acap/Lod 2.73 kg 25.18 kg Angrites 0.02 kg 7.24 kg Brachinites 0.25 kg 8.16 kg Aubrites 5.37 kg 11.14 kg (still biased by some El Haggouina pairings) Carbonaceous CB 0.13 kg 0.90 kg CH 0.21 kg 0.42 kg CI 0.80 kg - CK 4.50 kg 32.86 kg CM 18.94 kg 5.98 kg CO 36.10 kg 20.29 kg CR 3.61 kg 10.85 kg CV 15.64 kg 81.30 kg Diogenites - 83.12 kg Eucrites 47.97 kg 116.56 kg
Re: [meteorite-list] NYT story
Hi Shawn, I fully agree with you, I wanted only to turn down the pseudo-argument, that science would get the short end of the stick, because meteorites would be purportedly so expensive, and that therefore all commercialism has to be banned by law. Because that horse all articles like that are riding, and unfortunately here and there scientists are quoted like that. The commerce is the motor for all these meteorites being recovered at all, and that not since yesterday, but for 200 years already. And of course science gave always also fuel for that motor. Cause as demonstrated so many times - for the public cash box and for the institutes budgets - the commercially generated meteorites are by far the most affordable ones, they help to save a lot of funds. And seen the variety of types and the volumes, if we want to sustain the standard and the quality of meteorite research, which we had now the last 10 or 20 years - those commercially generated meteorites are an integral part of modern meteorite science, it wouldn't work without them. The find rates and the kind of material found on publically funded searchs are known, as well as the financial means spent for these undertakings are known. So we don't have to discuss. It's about peanuts. And these clouded minds - it is a remote and strange expectation, that those who do that excellent performance to find all these meteorites for them, shouldn't be allowed to make their living from that. No matter whether doorman, gardener, journalist, dentist or meteoricist - it's a childish vision, that they all should work for free. And that what you observe in the sandbox of Sahara, Australia or Oman, Shawn - at least we learned it all as children in our sandboxes, that it is inadmissible to wrest the shovel from our playfellow, with the sole justification: I just want it. If some of these yellers had a hard childhood we are all sorry for that, but that can't serve as an excuse for their weird demanding attitude. Happy Playing! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Shawn Alan Gesendet: Mittwoch, 6. April 2011 20:53 An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: [meteorite-list] NYT story Hello Martin I would have to agree people have their own neish when it comes to meteorites and as you can see ordinary meteorites to you are not interesting. But to science ordinary or not, meteorites play a pivotal roll in the exploration of new discoveries of where we came from, who are we, where we are going, and these are questions we will continue to try to answer till we cease to exist. I see that NYT is banking off the scientific importance meteorites have for science and are banking off how they can get more readerships from an article about rocks from space. It says it all in the title…. Black-Market Trinkets From Space. That would get my attention even if it was not about space. It could even say Black-Market knitting trades, or Black-Market coin collecting trades. That phase will lure anyone into reading that article, which I have to say is bad reporting on their part but good for readership. The real problem isn’t that we as a society have gotten bumber, it’s that our lexicon has changed and the way we perceive reality has shifted to more on glorifying the negative, glorifying corruption and focusing on tabloids that sensationalize GET RICH trends. NYT knew that a normal story about meteorites wouldn’t pull in readership, meaning the mass. How could they make a simple article seem more appealing to all and they found it. Corruption, stealing, illegal trading, Black-Market, makes for a good sci fi thriller, however the real picture on how meteorites are collected and used for science is false. As you can see NYT isn’t a place for scholarly articles but a place to be informed on uniformed articles. As for the real trading that goes one I have to agree that what you said is dead on. The market isn’t made up of millions and billions of dollars to be had, but it’s made up of meteorites collected from around the world. These specimens from the far reaches of the dry desert sands, to the white snow caps of Antarctica, to locked up historic meteorites in institutions and museums all have a common goal, to progress science and the understanding of evolution of the universe. I do wish that the NYT hadn’t said what they said, but they did, and all we can do is move forward. I like to focus on the positive side, even if it’s from the negative. I can say this, the article in NYT has brought the science and meteorite colleting world even closers, and by doing so, we as a group will have a stronger understanding where we stand when it comes to meteorites and the place they hold in the evolution of the universe. Shawn Alan IMCA 1633 eBaystore http://shop.ebay.com/photophlow/m.html [meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] NYT Story
Hi list, As a former paying subscriber to the New York Times electronic edition I sometimes receive emails from them asking me to re-subscribe. Coincidentally I received an email from the NYT today offering me a discount if I subscribe again. Deep in the sales talk I found their customer service address: Customer Care, c/o The New York Times, P.O. Box 217, Northvale, NJ 07647-0217 I plan to write to the good folks in Customer Care and will explain to them why I will not subscribe now or ever to what used to be known as the paper of record. How times change. Vote with your wallet and let them know! Best regards, Charley Butterfield IMCA 6123 Well, squids don't work. Hey! Let's try elephants ! Hannibal __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NYT Story
Two things, first I put a rebuttal link on my web page so anybody who uses the link in the article to go to my web page will find a link to comments posted on the metlist by Dr Agee, Mike Farmer, and Martin Altmann. All comments used with permission. Second Adam Hupe wrote I have a hard time believing that any form of media would liable themselves by putting quotes around something that was completely made up. What I said to the reporter was something like I purchased the Gebel Kamil from other people in the US I would not have said “I bought them second- and thirdhand.” as quoted. Essentially the same thing, but not my words despite the quote marks. -- Eric Olson 610 W. Moore Rd Tucson AZ 85755 http://www.star-bits.com __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NYT Story
Two things, first I put a rebuttal link on my web page so anybody who uses the link in the article to go to my web page will find a link to comments posted on the metlist by Dr Agee, Mike Farmer, and Martin Altmann. Well done, Eric, as many readers of the NYT article with a computer at hands will now likely look at your website. They will read personal comments from highly respected people who speak for themselves on the issue, and this is potentially a much better observation than any third-party-summary... Alex Berlin/Germany __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NYT Story
It seems some disagree with this statement I made earlier. I have a hard time believing that any form of media would liable themselves by putting quotes around something that was completely made up. I am not defending the NYT and think the article is poor. It used to be when quote marks were printed that this was the exact statement made. Why would the NYT even use quote marks if what they print is inaccurate? I can see them taking these responses out of context but changing what somebody said and placing quote marks around it is nothing short of liable. If this reporter knows nothing about meteorites and was a blank slat start with, then somebody had to put these thoughts into his head. It looks to me that Dr. Harvey might have set the tone for this article. Perhaps, he was quoted out of context but if so, it his responsibility to clarify it since he granted them the interview. If you want to be in the limelight, then you have to take responsibility for any negative fallout. After all, he was acting as a spokesperson for the rest of us by granting this public interview. Everybody else quoted in this article has stepped up to the plate, took responsibility for what was said and explained what they meant to say. I applaud this action and believe most mentioned in this article were completely caught off guard. I do not cherish the thought of somebody else speaking on my behalf publicly, especially when they were not elected to do so. What is printed or plastered on TV affects all of us. Remember this when an interview with the media seems to be getting out of hand. You can always stop the interview and move on. Most media outlets thrive on negative entertainment and it works. One just has to look at the negative political campaigns to see this. If it did not work, then politicians would not use this tactic. It takes ten positive articles to offset one negative one. This ratings over responsibility attitude can be devastating. Just ask any former treasure hunter. Best Regards, Adam __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NYT Story
Hi Why would the NYT even use quote marks if what they print is inaccurate? I can see them taking these responses out of context but changing what somebody said and placing quote marks around it is nothing short of liable. While I agree with some of what you've written, the aforementioned is factually inaccurate. What you're referring to has nothing in and of itself to do with libel. Zilch. For those who are interested, The New York Times Manual of Style will explain all stylistic choices employed by the paper While the writer of the piece obviously did a hack job, it should be noted he won the Pulitzer Prize, twice, and is considered by many to a dean of science writers. Overseas list members, if you have the opportunity, please peruse the International Herald Tribune to see if they picked up the story and run it in its entirety. Thanks and all the best / d, On Apr 6, 2011, at 10:30 PM, Adam Hupe wrote: It seems some disagree with this statement I made earlier. I have a hard time believing that any form of media would liable themselves by putting quotes around something that was completely made up. I am not defending the NYT and think the article is poor. It used to be when quote marks were printed that this was the exact statement made. Why would the NYT even use quote marks if what they print is inaccurate? I can see them taking these responses out of context but changing what somebody said and placing quote marks around it is nothing short of liable. If this reporter knows nothing about meteorites and was a blank slat start with, then somebody had to put these thoughts into his head. It looks to me that Dr. Harvey might have set the tone for this article. Perhaps, he was quoted out of context but if so, it his responsibility to clarify it since he granted them the interview. If you want to be in the limelight, then you have to take responsibility for any negative fallout. After all, he was acting as a spokesperson for the rest of us by granting this public interview. Everybody else quoted in this article has stepped up to the plate, took responsibility for what was said and explained what they meant to say. I applaud this action and believe most mentioned in this article were completely caught off guard. I do not cherish the thought of somebody else speaking on my behalf publicly, especially when they were not elected to do so. What is printed or plastered on TV affects all of us. Remember this when an interview with the media seems to be getting out of hand. You can always stop the interview and move on. Most media outlets thrive on negative entertainment and it works. One just has to look at the negative political campaigns to see this. If it did not work, then politicians would not use this tactic. It takes ten positive articles to offset one negative one. This ratings over responsibility attitude can be devastating. Just ask any former treasure hunter. Best Regards, Adam __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NYT Story
If someone can win a Pulitzer Prize for work like that, then I should be presented with some kind of prize as well... because I just $#@T the Mona Lisa about 15 minutes ago. Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -Original Message- From: Darryl Pitt dar...@dof3.com Sender: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2011 00:03:23 To: Adam Huperaremeteori...@yahoo.com Cc: Adammeteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NYT Story Hi Why would the NYT even use quote marks if what they print is inaccurate? I can see them taking these responses out of context but changing what somebody said and placing quote marks around it is nothing short of liable. While I agree with some of what you've written, the aforementioned is factually inaccurate. What you're referring to has nothing in and of itself to do with libel. Zilch. For those who are interested, The New York Times Manual of Style will explain all stylistic choices employed by the paper While the writer of the piece obviously did a hack job, it should be noted he won the Pulitzer Prize, twice, and is considered by many to a dean of science writers. Overseas list members, if you have the opportunity, please peruse the International Herald Tribune to see if they picked up the story and run it in its entirety. Thanks and all the best / d, On Apr 6, 2011, at 10:30 PM, Adam Hupe wrote: It seems some disagree with this statement I made earlier. I have a hard time believing that any form of media would liable themselves by putting quotes around something that was completely made up. I am not defending the NYT and think the article is poor. It used to be when quote marks were printed that this was the exact statement made. Why would the NYT even use quote marks if what they print is inaccurate? I can see them taking these responses out of context but changing what somebody said and placing quote marks around it is nothing short of liable. If this reporter knows nothing about meteorites and was a blank slat start with, then somebody had to put these thoughts into his head. It looks to me that Dr. Harvey might have set the tone for this article. Perhaps, he was quoted out of context but if so, it his responsibility to clarify it since he granted them the interview. If you want to be in the limelight, then you have to take responsibility for any negative fallout. After all, he was acting as a spokesperson for the rest of us by granting this public interview. Everybody else quoted in this article has stepped up to the plate, took responsibility for what was said and explained what they meant to say. I applaud this action and believe most mentioned in this article were completely caught off guard. I do not cherish the thought of somebody else speaking on my behalf publicly, especially when they were not elected to do so. What is printed or plastered on TV affects all of us. Remember this when an interview with the media seems to be getting out of hand. You can always stop the interview and move on. Most media outlets thrive on negative entertainment and it works. One just has to look at the negative political campaigns to see this. If it did not work, then politicians would not use this tactic. It takes ten positive articles to offset one negative one. This ratings over responsibility attitude can be devastating. Just ask any former treasure hunter. Best Regards, Adam __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NYT Story
There is a dry and to the point Wikipedia article about Mr. Broad, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Broad. He has covered many technical and scientific events in his career, including continuing coverage of the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant event going on in Japan; the meteorite story wasn't among his finest, and it certainly isn't be his worst. I'd really like to hear a response from him on the list, but that's probably unlikely. /rh -- From: Darryl Pitt dar...@dof3.com Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2011 9:03 PM To: Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com Cc: Adam meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NYT Story Hi Why would the NYT even use quote marks if what they print is inaccurate? I can see them taking these responses out of context but changing what somebody said and placing quote marks around it is nothing short of liable. While I agree with some of what you've written, the aforementioned is factually inaccurate. What you're referring to has nothing in and of itself to do with libel. Zilch. For those who are interested, The New York Times Manual of Style will explain all stylistic choices employed by the paper While the writer of the piece obviously did a hack job, it should be noted he won the Pulitzer Prize, twice, and is considered by many to a dean of science writers. Overseas list members, if you have the opportunity, please peruse the International Herald Tribune to see if they picked up the story and run it in its entirety. Thanks and all the best / d, On Apr 6, 2011, at 10:30 PM, Adam Hupe wrote: It seems some disagree with this statement I made earlier. I have a hard time believing that any form of media would liable themselves by putting quotes around something that was completely made up. I am not defending the NYT and think the article is poor. It used to be when quote marks were printed that this was the exact statement made. Why would the NYT even use quote marks if what they print is inaccurate? I can see them taking these responses out of context but changing what somebody said and placing quote marks around it is nothing short of liable. If this reporter knows nothing about meteorites and was a blank slat start with, then somebody had to put these thoughts into his head. It looks to me that Dr. Harvey might have set the tone for this article. Perhaps, he was quoted out of context but if so, it his responsibility to clarify it since he granted them the interview. If you want to be in the limelight, then you have to take responsibility for any negative fallout. After all, he was acting as a spokesperson for the rest of us by granting this public interview. Everybody else quoted in this article has stepped up to the plate, took responsibility for what was said and explained what they meant to say. I applaud this action and believe most mentioned in this article were completely caught off guard. I do not cherish the thought of somebody else speaking on my behalf publicly, especially when they were not elected to do so. What is printed or plastered on TV affects all of us. Remember this when an interview with the media seems to be getting out of hand. You can always stop the interview and move on. Most media outlets thrive on negative entertainment and it works. One just has to look at the negative political campaigns to see this. If it did not work, then politicians would not use this tactic. It takes ten positive articles to offset one negative one. This ratings over responsibility attitude can be devastating. Just ask any former treasure hunter. Best Regards, Adam __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] NYT story
Since I am quoted in this article, here’s my reaction to it. The reporter seems very confused, in that he lumps together a story about the Gebel Kamil crater in Egypt and the legal meteorite trade (NWA) based primarily in Morocco. During the interview with him I spent a fair amount of time trying to explain to him how beneficial the NWA’s have been for planetary science research. For example, I mentioned how the number of rare Angrite meteorites has more than doubled due to African finds – a huge enhancement to our understanding of the early solar system, and of course I mentioned all the lunars and martians, and other rare classes. I told him that I was not terribly well informed about the Gebel Kamil crater situation, but in my opinion the highest priority would be to protect the impact structure from degradation as these are quite rare on Earth. I also told him, that the Gebel Kamil meteorites on the other hand, are probably not hard to come by, and I’m sure if I wanted to study one for research, I could get a sample at a reasonable price or even get one as a donation from a collector, which museums benefit from frequently. I did get the feeling that he was hoping to hear something negative from me. As such he ended the interview rather quickly, but said something like “oh, the NWA meteorites sounds like an interesting story, I need to come back to that at a later time”. So of course I was disappointed to see what mess the final NYT version was. -- Carl B. Agee Director and Curator, Institute of Meteoritics Professor, Earth and Planetary Sciences MSC03 2050 University of New Mexico Albuquerque NM 87131-1126 Tel: (505) 750-7172 Fax: (505) 277-3577 Email: a...@unm.edu http://epswww.unm.edu/iom/pers/agee.html __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NYT story
Hello Carl, thank you for giving us your view on the matter. What you said explains the biased nature of the NYT article. One must ask the question why the reporter was so biased or what, or who, made him write this article. Instead of investigating an issue he apparently had a preconceived idea from the start of his 'investigation'. As you are someone who was interviewed for the article it might be a good idea to clarify things in a letter to the editor. Do you think this could be an option for you? Best wishes Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: Carl Agee a...@unm.edu Gesendet: 05.04.2011 17:28:10 An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: [meteorite-list] NYT story Since I am quoted in this article, here’s my reaction to it. The reporter seems very confused, in that he lumps together a story about the Gebel Kamil crater in Egypt and the legal meteorite trade (NWA) based primarily in Morocco. During the interview with him I spent a fair amount of time trying to explain to him how beneficial the NWA’s have been for planetary science research. For example, I mentioned how the number of rare Angrite meteorites has more than doubled due to African finds – a huge enhancement to our understanding of the early solar system, and of course I mentioned all the lunars and martians, and other rare classes. I told him that I was not terribly well informed about the Gebel Kamil crater situation, but in my opinion the highest priority would be to protect the impact structure from degradation as these are quite rare on Earth. I also told him, that the Gebel Kamil meteorites on the other hand, are probably not hard to come by, and I’m sure if I wanted to study one for research, I could get a sample at a reasonable price or even get one as a donation from a collector, which museums benefit from frequently. I did get the feeling that he was hoping to hear something negative from me. As such he ended the interview rather quickly, but said something like “oh, the NWA meteorites sounds like an interesting story, I need to come back to that at a later time”. So of course I was disappointed to see what mess the final NYT version was. -- Carl B. Agee Director and Curator, Institute of Meteoritics Professor, Earth and Planetary Sciences MSC03 2050 University of New Mexico Albuquerque NM 87131-1126 Tel: (505) 750-7172 Fax: (505) 277-3577 Email: a...@unm.edu http://epswww.unm.edu/iom/pers/agee.html __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NYT story
If it were me, I would not give the New York Times the time of day if asked to do an interview. They have already proven themselves unworthy of accurately reporting on meteorites. We do not need their input on NWA meteorites or any others as they appear already biased by a member of the Antarctic program who seems threatened by all other non-Antarctic material if the article quoted him properly. What was told to the press was uncalled for and very damaging. It appears to me, this scientist is for some reason feels threatened by non-Antarctic material when he should be embracing it. What would make a scientist feel compelled to label all other meteorites Black Market unless he was trying to protect the program he is involved with or was misquoted by the press? Perhaps, in the spirit of cooperation, he could clarify this for all of us. Perhaps budget cuts are on the horizon? In any case, this doesn't demonstrate collaboration that most of us seek. I think an apology is in order. A lot of good people were unfairly labeled in this biased piece. Best Regards, Adam __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NYT story
Thanks a bunch, Professor Agee, for your quick personal reaction, this is well appreciated. Unfortunately, the public perception with regards to the content of such an article in an internationally well known press medium like NYT will possibly result in a negative inclination towards the collector and dealer community in meteoritics, which is very much different to the positive way we all would like to understand it in the best of all interdisciplinary senses. As well as the suspected impact from future citations of this article somewhere else might probably work in quite a destructive manner. So I sincerely hope someone can set the records straight as a follow-up to this article - sort of a knowledgable reader´s comment or something like that... Best regards, Alex Seidel Berlin/Germany (long time collector) Original-Nachricht Datum: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 09:28:10 -0600 Von: Carl Agee a...@unm.edu An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: [meteorite-list] NYT story Since I am quoted in this article, here’s my reaction to it. The reporter seems very confused, in that he lumps together a story about the Gebel Kamil crater in Egypt and the legal meteorite trade (NWA) based primarily in Morocco. During the interview with him I spent a fair amount of time trying to explain to him how beneficial the NWA’s have been for planetary science research. For example, I mentioned how the number of rare Angrite meteorites has more than doubled due to African finds – a huge enhancement to our understanding of the early solar system, and of course I mentioned all the lunars and martians, and other rare classes. I told him that I was not terribly well informed about the Gebel Kamil crater situation, but in my opinion the highest priority would be to protect the impact structure from degradation as these are quite rare on Earth. I also told him, that the Gebel Kamil meteorites on the other hand, are probably not hard to come by, and I’m sure if I wanted to study one for research, I could get a sample at a reasonable price or even get one as a donation from a collector, which museums benefit from frequently. I did get the feeling that he was hoping to hear something negative from me. As such he ended the interview rather quickly, but said something like “oh, the NWA meteorites sounds like an interesting story, I need to come back to that at a later time”. So of course I was disappointed to see what mess the final NYT version was. -- Carl B. Agee Director and Curator, Institute of Meteoritics Professor, Earth and Planetary Sciences MSC03 2050 University of New Mexico Albuquerque NM 87131-1126 Tel: (505) 750-7172 Fax: (505) 277-3577 Email: a...@unm.edu http://epswww.unm.edu/iom/pers/agee.html __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NYT story
Hi Adam, Listees, and Horrified Onlookers, I think a couple of list-members spoke to the scientist you are referring to, and he was misquoted or what he said was taken out of context. It seems to me that the author of the article has an agenda of some sort and he is looking for a dramatic story to boost his readership. Shady characters with terrorist connections, smuggling meteorites out of far-flung countries, bribing corrupt officials, and intrigues make for a good story, but unfortunately the story has no basis in fact. Over the years, this List has witnessed a back and forth battle between the collector community and private hunters on one side, and science on the other. As Martin Altmann has eloquently and frequently argued, the two sides are both benefiting from synergy that emerged since the Saharan NWA Gold Rush. There have been some misunderstandings and mistakes made in the past, but for the most part, the relationship between private collector/hunter and scientist has been a mutually beneficial one. This List has some highly-respected scientists lurking on it, and they will tell you (off-list) that science is not being damaged by the private collector market. But meteorites, like the rest of science, is subject to politics, and that is where the problem resides - with people stirring the pot in a negative manner to promote their own personal agenda. The author of the NYT article obviously has an agenda that includes making private meteorite collectors (and dealers) look bad. During all the debate about science-versus-collector, the one argument I have heard that has a shred of merit against the collector is this : these meteorites can lay out in the deserts for another thousand or five thousand years unmolested and science can always come get them when time or budget permits. Private hunters reply that the stones can be collected, made available to science, and preserved in the short-term to the benefit of all. Well, now with the increasing instability, deteriorating security situation, and political uncertainty in the Sahara, it looks like the desert is becoming more dangerous for hunters of any kind. (official or private) In light of this, perhaps it is best that the flood of meteorites happened when it did. If the anti-privateer crowd had their way, most collectors wouldn't have a howardite and most institutions wouldn't have a lunar (or angrite, or lodranite, or olivine diogenite...) ANSMET has been a boon to science, but it is subject to bureaucracy and politics, just like any program funded by external interests. In light of the positive scientific results of the Saharan NWA rush, it can be argued that privateers have been just as beneficial to science as any government-funded or institutional program. Best regards and happy huntings, MikeG -- Mike Gilmer - Galactic Stone Ironworks Meteorites Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone News Feed - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 Twitter - http://twitter.com/galacticstone EOM - http://www.encyclopedia-of-meteorites.com/collection.aspx?id=1564 --- On 4/5/11, Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com wrote: If it were me, I would not give the New York Times the time of day if asked to do an interview. They have already proven themselves unworthy of accurately reporting on meteorites. We do not need their input on NWA meteorites or any others as they appear already biased by a member of the Antarctic program who seems threatened by all other non-Antarctic material if the article quoted him properly. What was told to the press was uncalled for and very damaging. It appears to me, this scientist is for some reason feels threatened by non-Antarctic material when he should be embracing it. What would make a scientist feel compelled to label all other meteorites Black Market unless he was trying to protect the program he is involved with or was misquoted by the press? Perhaps, in the spirit of cooperation, he could clarify this for all of us. Perhaps budget cuts are on the horizon? In any case, this doesn't demonstrate collaboration that most of us seek. I think an apology is in order. A lot of good people were unfairly labeled in this biased piece. Best Regards, Adam __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list -- __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NYT story
Hi all, I cannot recall seeing accurate reporting on anything scientific in the Lame Street Media. And that defintely includes that paragon of duplicity, The New York Times. The news media in this country no longer employs experts on such complex subjects as astronomy. Instead, they instruct undereducated writers to sensationalize their reporting to sell what they publishm or air. Neither the reporter, or their bosses. care who, or what endeavor, is damaged by their inaccuracies and generalizations. You can't undo what has once been published. So, I think it would be smart to never give a statement to the press that you didn't craft and distribute yourself in writing. Better yet, don't have anything to do with the media at all. Count Deiro IMCA 3536 -Original Message- From: Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com Sent: Apr 5, 2011 9:27 AM To: Adam meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NYT story If it were me, I would not give the New York Times the time of day if asked to do an interview. They have already proven themselves unworthy of accurately reporting on meteorites. We do not need their input on NWA meteorites or any others as they appear already biased by a member of the Antarctic program who seems threatened by all other non-Antarctic material if the article quoted him properly. What was told to the press was uncalled for and very damaging. It appears to me, this scientist is for some reason feels threatened by non-Antarctic material when he should be embracing it. What would make a scientist feel compelled to label all other meteorites Black Market unless he was trying to protect the program he is involved with or was misquoted by the press? Perhaps, in the spirit of cooperation, he could clarify this for all of us. Perhaps budget cuts are on the horizon? In any case, this doesn't demonstrate collaboration that most of us seek. I think an apology is in order. A lot of good people were unfairly labeled in this biased piece. Best Regards, Adam __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NYT story
Thanks Carl. Kinda what I suspected. The latest film crew I entertained at the telescope seemed nice enough, until after we finished up and were heading home when Sara my fiancee complained about how they were treating her. I was completely unaware of what was going on off camera. I told her that if any crew or reporter treats her that way again she is to tell me immediately and we'll end the interview right then and there. The program has already aired in the UK but I haven't heard a peep yet about it airing in the US. However I did get a copy from a colleague who also appeared on the program. To say collectively those of us on the program were less than pleased about how we all were personally portrayed in this production is an understatement. One thing to keep in mind is ALL reporters have a bias. They ALL arrive at your doorstep or ring you up on the phone with a specific story in mind. If the story is to be that collecting meteorites are illegal and that hunters are thieves and criminals, that is the story, no matter what you tell them. My advise is if someone asks you for an interview, or even just some comments, ask them for more details. What is the story about? What is the angle? and why are you asking ME? The last production left such a bitter taste in my mouth that I'll be happy never to do another one ever. I chuckle when some bash part of the media as if the media they watch, read or listen to is unbiased or not mainstream. Of course they are, but actually saying that doesn't play as well to their audience. Most aren't too bad, but they are all biased in some way and by various degrees. As I mentioned in yesterday's post, sometimes the facts get in the way of a good story. As I mentioned above, my suggestion to anyone contacted by anyone in the media, especially if you trust that outlet, ask them a lot of questions before they start the interview. If you feel any discomfort or doubt, thank them and decline to give them an interview. If you have already started the interview, let them know that you are uncomfortable with the direction their questions are taking. If it continues, don't hesitate to end the interview. For what it's worth... -- Richard Kowalski Full Moon Photography IMCA #1081 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NYT story
On Tue, 5 Apr 2011 11:13:55 -0700 (GMT-07:00), you wrote: Hi all, I cannot recall seeing accurate reporting on anything scientific in the Lame Street Media. Absolutely. http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comicsid=1623 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NYT story
The more letters to the editor that are written, the more likely it is for one to be published: Here's the instructions (Has to be done within 7 days of the article and keep it under 150 words!): http://www.nytimes.com/content/help/site/editorial/letters/letters.html?ref=letters Here's advice on how to get it published: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/23/opinion/23READ.html While most people are disdaining the NYT, it is still widely circulated and read, therefore a published response on there might be useful to mitigating damage and questioning the credibility of the article. -YvW On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 2:51 PM, Darren Garrison cyna...@charter.net wrote: On Tue, 5 Apr 2011 11:13:55 -0700 (GMT-07:00), you wrote: Hi all, I cannot recall seeing accurate reporting on anything scientific in the Lame Street Media. Absolutely. http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comicsid=1623 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NYT story
I was driving home on Friday when a guy called and identified himself as a reporter from the NY Times. He said he talked to this scientist (I didn't catch the name) who thought collectors were bad for meteorite studies and then he said he talked to Anne Black and she said that was B*** S***! I remember thinking that I doubted Anne used that phrase ;-) He asked me about gebel kamil and exporting it from Egypt. I told him I knew of no law in Egypt that even mentions meteorites let alone making export illegal. I told him that there were laws about artifacts, but they don't mention meteorites and meteorites are not artifacts. I never said I thought I was beyond Egyptian law because my gebel kamil was purchased in the USA, I just didn't know of any law that applied. Conversation ended quickly after that. The photo of the looted 60 gram piece is not one of mine. I was surprised to be the featured bad guy/dealer in the article. According to my cell phone the whole conversation lasted only 4 minutes and 26 seconds. The response on my end has been rather quiet, 3 new customers, 2 people who wanted their hematite identified as a meteorite, one guy from the Harvard business school who thought we should get with the scientists and come up with a classification system because that would make everybody happy and the meteorites worth more (told him the reporter forgot to mention such a thing already existed), one guy that thought it was an interesting story and wanted help make an Indiana Jones type movie out of it (sent him to Mike Farmer), and one liberal retard who vented not only on stealing history, destroying the environment, but also on Arizona psychos selling automatic weapons etc, etc, etc. Another quiet day at the office. Eric Olson http://www.star-bits.com __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NYT story
Hello Eric, list , -
4 min. 26 sec. - wow, that's what one calls a profound research.
Well, it's quite simple. There does exist the magic word verification. Or,
other way round, with Karl Popper, falsification. Both ways are suitable
and should belong to a scientific as well as a sufficient journalistic
armamentarium. At least if you're a NYT journalist. One might think.
Nevertheless, it's a shame. And the combination of ignorance, prejudice and,
regarding Dr. Harvey (hopefully not the patron of the H. awards), obviously
something like image neurosis ('cause he knows it better of sure) makes it a
double shame.
If those people would look into the nightly sky some nights and realize the
passage through time and space of a meteorite before it lands on this
sandcorn of a planet, perhaps to arrive in the hands of one of us: the
sandcorn of a sandcorn - they would think and behave different.
Regards,
Matthias
- Original Message -
From: star-b...@tx.rr.com
To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2011 11:39 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NYT story
I was driving home on Friday when a guy called and identified himself as
a reporter from the NY Times. He said he talked to this scientist (I
didn't catch the name) who thought collectors were bad for meteorite
studies and then he said he talked to Anne Black and she said that was
B*** S***! I remember thinking that I doubted Anne used that phrase ;-)
He asked me about gebel kamil and exporting it from Egypt. I told him I
knew of no law in Egypt that even mentions meteorites let alone making
export illegal. I told him that there were laws about artifacts, but they
don't mention meteorites and meteorites are not artifacts. I never said I
thought I was beyond Egyptian law because my gebel kamil was purchased
in the USA, I just didn't know of any law that applied. Conversation
ended quickly after that. The photo of the looted 60 gram piece is not
one of mine.
I was surprised to be the featured bad guy/dealer in the article.
According to my cell phone the whole conversation lasted only 4 minutes
and 26 seconds. The response on my end has been rather quiet, 3 new
customers, 2 people who wanted their hematite identified as a meteorite,
one guy from the Harvard business school who thought we should get with
the scientists and come up with a classification system because that would
make everybody happy and the meteorites worth more (told him the reporter
forgot to mention such a thing already existed), one guy that thought it
was an interesting story and wanted help make an Indiana Jones type movie
out of it (sent him to Mike Farmer), and one liberal retard who vented not
only on stealing history, destroying the environment, but also on Arizona
psychos selling automatic weapons etc, etc, etc. Another quiet day at
the office.
Eric Olson
http://www.star-bits.com
__
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http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html
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Re: [meteorite-list] NYT story
I have been silent on this list too long. I know that Anne Black, John Kashuba, Myself and Many, Many others on this list have lent and or donated material to those poor underfunded researchers that have led to significant new findings and understandings of planetary mineralogy. Without all of us and the interest we promote about meteorites to the general public, Worldwide research would soon go the way of the Australian Scientists. And that is a fact. It takes more than a handful of Scientists with limited resources to procure the vast amount of material that people like us have given them the opportunity to study. Thus making unprecedented leaps and bounds in the understanding of our Solar System and the Universe alike. Jeff Hodges www.meteoritethinsectiongallery.com __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NYT story
Hi everyone, Besides the terrible reporting and obvious bias, I was curious about the meteorite blogger in the article who said he/she was feeling guilty. What?? We have no idea who this is or if that person exists. I find it amazing the editor let that go through. Bob __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NYT story
Very good catch on the Bob! I can't believe I missed that. How in the world did the editor let that quote slide without a source? I wonder if it was said at all. Regards, Eric On 4/5/2011 5:20 PM, Bob King wrote: Hi everyone, Besides the terrible reporting and obvious bias, I was curious about the meteorite blogger in the article who said he/she was feeling guilty. What?? We have no idea who this is or if that person exists. I find it amazing the editor let that go through. Bob __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NYT story
Hi Bob and List, It's not a blogger or blog, as the article said. It's a message board. The person who uttered the quote is a real person. I've been a member of that astronomy message board for years before I discovered meteorites (via Bob!). As I stated in the original message board thread, the person had no reason to feel the way he does about Gebel Kamil. The person was a relative newcomer at the time, and like many newcomers, will often read something and take it as fact. This was when Gebel Kamil was still new and the situation was developing. The NYT writer can't even tell a message board post from a blog. We can't expect that same writer to know a crater from a pothole or a meteorite from a potato. The NYT has a history of not vetting it's articles, sources, or writers. It is tripe journalism. Best regards, MikeG -- Mike Gilmer - Galactic Stone Ironworks Meteorites Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone News Feed - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 Twitter - http://twitter.com/galacticstone EOM - http://www.encyclopedia-of-meteorites.com/collection.aspx?id=1564 --- On 4/5/11, Bob King nightsk...@gmail.com wrote: Hi everyone, Besides the terrible reporting and obvious bias, I was curious about the meteorite blogger in the article who said he/she was feeling guilty. What?? We have no idea who this is or if that person exists. I find it amazing the editor let that go through. Bob __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list -- __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NYT story
Hi, The blog in question is the Cloudy Nights Space Rocks forum. The quote is from Lars Zielke. Thanks, Peter Scherff From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Meteorites USA Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2011 8:25 PM To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NYT story Very good catch on the Bob! I can't believe I missed that. How in the world did the editor let that quote slide without a source? I wonder if it was said at all. Regards, Eric On 4/5/2011 5:20 PM, Bob King wrote: Hi everyone, Besides the terrible reporting and obvious bias, I was curious about the meteorite blogger in the article who said he/she was feeling guilty. What?? We have no idea who this is or if that person exists. I find it amazing the editor let that go through. Bob __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1209 / Virus Database: 1500/3553 - Release Date: 04/05/11 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NYT story
Mike, You said at the time... what was the date on that original post? And how many comments were made afterward in that forum thread? Got a link? Eric On 4/5/2011 5:34 PM, Michael Gilmer wrote: Hi Bob and List, It's not a blogger or blog, as the article said. It's a message board. The person who uttered the quote is a real person. I've been a member of that astronomy message board for years before I discovered meteorites (via Bob!). As I stated in the original message board thread, the person had no reason to feel the way he does about Gebel Kamil. The person was a relative newcomer at the time, and like many newcomers, will often read something and take it as fact. This was when Gebel Kamil was still new and the situation was developing. The NYT writer can't even tell a message board post from a blog. We can't expect that same writer to know a crater from a pothole or a meteorite from a potato. The NYT has a history of not vetting it's articles, sources, or writers. It is tripe journalism. Best regards, MikeG -- Mike Gilmer - Galactic Stone Ironworks Meteorites Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone News Feed - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 Twitter - http://twitter.com/galacticstone EOM - http://www.encyclopedia-of-meteorites.com/collection.aspx?id=1564 --- On 4/5/11, Bob Kingnightsk...@gmail.com wrote: Hi everyone, Besides the terrible reporting and obvious bias, I was curious about the meteorite blogger in the article who said he/she was feeling guilty. What?? We have no idea who this is or if that person exists. I find it amazing the editor let that go through. Bob __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list -- __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NYT story
Hi Eric and list, Here's the thread: http://tinyurl.com/3kbowog Bob On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 6:53 PM, Meteorites USA e...@meteoritesusa.com wrote: Mike, You said at the time... what was the date on that original post? And how many comments were made afterward in that forum thread? Got a link? Eric On 4/5/2011 5:34 PM, Michael Gilmer wrote: Hi Bob and List, It's not a blogger or blog, as the article said. It's a message board. The person who uttered the quote is a real person. I've been a member of that astronomy message board for years before I discovered meteorites (via Bob!). As I stated in the original message board thread, the person had no reason to feel the way he does about Gebel Kamil. The person was a relative newcomer at the time, and like many newcomers, will often read something and take it as fact. This was when Gebel Kamil was still new and the situation was developing. The NYT writer can't even tell a message board post from a blog. We can't expect that same writer to know a crater from a pothole or a meteorite from a potato. The NYT has a history of not vetting it's articles, sources, or writers. It is tripe journalism. Best regards, MikeG -- Mike Gilmer - Galactic Stone Ironworks Meteorites Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone News Feed - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 Twitter - http://twitter.com/galacticstone EOM - http://www.encyclopedia-of-meteorites.com/collection.aspx?id=1564 --- On 4/5/11, Bob Kingnightsk...@gmail.com wrote: Hi everyone, Besides the terrible reporting and obvious bias, I was curious about the meteorite blogger in the article who said he/she was feeling guilty. What?? We have no idea who this is or if that person exists. I find it amazing the editor let that go through. Bob __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list -- __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NYT story
Thanks Bob for the link! Just so everyone on the Met-List knows, because some may not follow this thread or topic on other forums, I think Met-List members who won't click the link to view this very long thread/topic would be interested to know that the person who said that quote in the NYT article “I’m very ashamed,” the buyer wrote on a blog. “I’m surely a part of the problem.” also said this today! Begin Quote-- ...Hi I think the quote is from a post of mine. I still 100% behind the statement and in the case of Gebel Kamil I mostly agree with the article. No matter if a sample is bought second- or third handed, it still very wrong to do so unless it's legal, ethical and morally in order. I my opinion it is a disaster that profit hunters or collectors spoil such places like the Gebel Kamil crater. And yes there's huge problems - It is possible to buy say, Canadian samples, were the permits is not traceable to specific sample. Lars... End Quote-- He got one part absolutely right when he said I’m surely a part of the problem. Not trying to be mean, but this kind of ignorance is what hurts our hobby. It's worse even when it comes from within our community. I will refrain from commenting further on this as I might say something that might be construed as harsh. Regards, Eric On 4/5/2011 6:06 PM, Bob King wrote: Hi Eric and list, Here's the thread: http://tinyurl.com/3kbowog Bob On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 6:53 PM, Meteorites USAe...@meteoritesusa.com wrote: Mike, You said at the time... what was the date on that original post? And how many comments were made afterward in that forum thread? Got a link? Eric On 4/5/2011 5:34 PM, Michael Gilmer wrote: Hi Bob and List, It's not a blogger or blog, as the article said. It's a message board. The person who uttered the quote is a real person. I've been a member of that astronomy message board for years before I discovered meteorites (via Bob!). As I stated in the original message board thread, the person had no reason to feel the way he does about Gebel Kamil. The person was a relative newcomer at the time, and like many newcomers, will often read something and take it as fact. This was when Gebel Kamil was still new and the situation was developing. The NYT writer can't even tell a message board post from a blog. We can't expect that same writer to know a crater from a pothole or a meteorite from a potato. The NYT has a history of not vetting it's articles, sources, or writers. It is tripe journalism. Best regards, MikeG -- Mike Gilmer - Galactic Stone Ironworks Meteorites Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone News Feed - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 Twitter - http://twitter.com/galacticstone EOM - http://www.encyclopedia-of-meteorites.com/collection.aspx?id=1564 --- On 4/5/11, Bob Kingnightsk...@gmail.com wrote: Hi everyone, Besides the terrible reporting and obvious bias, I was curious about the meteorite blogger in the article who said he/she was feeling guilty. What?? We have no idea who this is or if that person exists. I find it amazing the editor let that go through. Bob __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list -- __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NYT story
Hi list members... I'm looking for a copy of yesterday's NYT paper this article is in. A version of this article appeared in print on April 5, 2011, on page D1 of the New York edition. Please email me if you might have a copy of this NYT newspaper. Cash now via Paypal! Regards, Eric __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NYT story
Eric, Instead of a paper copy, how about a link to the artucle? http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/05/science/05meteorite.html?scp=1sq=meteoritesst=cse Ed - Original Message - From: Meteorites USA e...@meteoritesusa.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2011 10:11 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NYT story Hi list members... I'm looking for a copy of yesterday's NYT paper this article is in. A version of this article appeared in print on April 5, 2011, on page D1 of the New York edition. Please email me if you might have a copy of this NYT newspaper. Cash now via Paypal! Regards, Eric __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NYT story
This story is being reposted and repeated all over Facebook today. On two occasions today, I have had to post comments refuting the story. This idiot who wrote that article should be sued for libel. Best regards, MikeG PS - is the author of the article related to those Pelissons? -- Mike Gilmer - Galactic Stone Ironworks Meteorites Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone News Feed - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 Twitter - http://twitter.com/galacticstone EOM - http://www.encyclopedia-of-meteorites.com/collection.aspx?id=1564 --- On 4/5/11, Ed Deckert edeck...@triad.rr.com wrote: Eric, Instead of a paper copy, how about a link to the artucle? http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/05/science/05meteorite.html?scp=1sq=meteoritesst=cse Ed - Original Message - From: Meteorites USA e...@meteoritesusa.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2011 10:11 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NYT story Hi list members... I'm looking for a copy of yesterday's NYT paper this article is in. A version of this article appeared in print on April 5, 2011, on page D1 of the New York edition. Please email me if you might have a copy of this NYT newspaper. Cash now via Paypal! Regards, Eric __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list -- __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NYT story
G'Day Everyone With the little time I have, I've been watching this thread develop. Personally, I feel fuel has been added to the fire. The constant hits on the NYT site will add to a fever pitch for those involved and I can see a follow up developing because of so much interest. They aren't going to apologize. They're just plain stupid. My first and last comment on this issue. Cheers John Eric, Instead of a paper copy, how about a link to the artucle? http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/05/science/05meteorite.html?scp=1sq=mete oritesst=cse Ed __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NYT story
Hi Johnno, You are correct sir. The NYT is not going to post a rebuttal and they are not going to vett their material or sources. The National Enquirer or the Weekly World News have more journalistic integrity. Sadly, many laypeople who don't know better are going to read this piece of flotsam and confuse it with real journalism. Some readers are going to walk away misinformed about meteorites and they are going to repeat that misinformation if the opportunity arises. The damage is already done. I sent the NYT a polite but firm rebuttal of the story, and I am sure other members of the meteorite community have done the same. They now know the article is junk, if they didn't know it already. Like I said earlier, a tale full of intrigue sells copy and ads. Which is more interesting for the reader who doesn't know about meteorites - 1) Lawless terrorists with Al-Qaeda connections are secretly smuggling meteorites out of the desert to fund their drug operations and to purchase weapons. These meteorites are then traded on a shadowy black market where small pieces can fetch a large fortune. 2) Ordinary people legally find, purchase, and collect space rocks as a hobby or educational endeavour. The New York Times knows that #1 will generate more revenue, and that is what they went with. That is entertainment for hire (and poor at that) and not journalism. Best regards, MikeG -- Mike Gilmer - Galactic Stone Ironworks Meteorites Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone News Feed - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 Twitter - http://twitter.com/galacticstone EOM - http://www.encyclopedia-of-meteorites.com/collection.aspx?id=1564 --- On 4/5/11, John.L.Cabassi j...@cabassi.net wrote: G'Day Everyone With the little time I have, I've been watching this thread develop. Personally, I feel fuel has been added to the fire. The constant hits on the NYT site will add to a fever pitch for those involved and I can see a follow up developing because of so much interest. They aren't going to apologize. They're just plain stupid. My first and last comment on this issue. Cheers John Eric, Instead of a paper copy, how about a link to the artucle? http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/05/science/05meteorite.html?scp=1sq=mete oritesst=cse Ed __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list -- __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NYT story
Thanks Ed, I've read the article online, I just want a paper. For posterity. Eric On 4/5/2011 7:27 PM, Ed Deckert wrote: Eric, Instead of a paper copy, how about a link to the artucle? http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/05/science/05meteorite.html?scp=1sq=meteoritesst=cse Ed - Original Message - From: Meteorites USA e...@meteoritesusa.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2011 10:11 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NYT story Hi list members... I'm looking for a copy of yesterday's NYT paper this article is in. A version of this article appeared in print on April 5, 2011, on page D1 of the New York edition. Please email me if you might have a copy of this NYT newspaper. Cash now via Paypal! Regards, Eric __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
