Re: [uf-discuss] Re: Precise Expansion Patterns

Manu Sporny wrote: If we're going to put "s" and "ms" in @class, then I don't think that would be a good idea. Can you elaborate why? One argument might be that consistency of naming across all units can help authors remember syntax. But my thinking in suggesting symbols as an exception for

Re: [uf-discuss] Re: Precise Expansion Patterns

Michael MD wrote: This would be acceptable: 3 seconds Or if we wanted to use the hMeasurement approach: three seconds two minutes, three seconds two years, 35 hours three seconds this kind of thing would: 1. add complexity to parsers Doubtless, but t

Re: [uf-discuss] Re: Precise Expansion Patterns

This would be acceptable: 3 seconds Or if we wanted to use the hMeasurement approach: three seconds two minutes, three seconds two years, 35 hours three seconds this kind of thing would: 1. add complexity to parsers 2. require people to be very precise

Re: [uf-discuss] Re: Precise Expansion Patterns

Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis wrote: >> >> http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/global.html#adef-title >> >> title = text [CS] >> This attribute offers advisory information about the element for >> which it is set. >> -

Re: [uf-discuss] Re: Precise Expansion Patterns

Manu Sporny wrote: Paul Wilkins wrote: [snip] I consider the following to be bad 2:23 Agreed. This is hiding data. So is putting anything in the TITLE attribute on a non-empty element. Sure you can get some UAs to show it by hovering over it (although it's generally hard to trigger

Re: [uf-discuss] Re: Precise Expansion Patterns

Paul Wilkins wrote: On 12/16/07, Michael MD <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: what about html5's datetime attribute? (would only be of use in html5 though) There is a datetime attribute (on a very select few elements) in HTML4. The trouble is that you are required to specify a full date/time, of whi

Re: [uf-discuss] Re: Precise Expansion Patterns

On 12/16/07, Michael MD <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > what about html5's datetime attribute? > (would only be of use in html5 though) There is a datetime attribute (on a very select few elements) in HTML4. The trouble is that you are required to specify a full date/time, of which only one type for

Re: [uf-discuss] Re: Precise Expansion Patterns

Paul Wilkins wrote: > On Dec 17, 2007 2:38 PM, Manu Sporny <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> By constricting DURATION to have a restrictive format, HH:MM:SS, we are >> being short-sighted and are not thinking about the other Microformats >> that are still to come that will need to specify DURATION. >>

Re: [uf-discuss] Re: Precise Expansion Patterns

what about html5's datetime attribute? (would only be of use in html5 though) ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

Re: [uf-discuss] Re: Precise Expansion Patterns

I realize that the OBJECT element has lost favor in the include-pattern due to browser issues. But it provides a @data attribute which, can be "used to specify the location of the object's data, for instance image data for objects defining images, or more generally, a serialized form of an object

Re: [uf-discuss] Re: Precise Expansion Patterns

On Dec 17, 2007 2:38 PM, Manu Sporny <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > By constricting DURATION to have a restrictive format, HH:MM:SS, we are > being short-sighted and are not thinking about the other Microformats > that are still to come that will need to specify DURATION. > > "00:02:23" is being shor

Re: [uf-discuss] Re: Precise Expansion Patterns

On Dec 17, 2007 11:18 AM, Andy Mabbett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Sun, December 16, 2007 19:14, Manu Sporny wrote: > > Paul Wilkins wrote: > >> 2:23 > > If you are suggesting that we use the hh:mm:ss time format for > > expressing duration, we cannot. That would be an abuse of the ISO 8601 > >

Re: [uf-discuss] Re: Precise Expansion Patterns

On 17 Dec 2007, at 00:31, Jeremy Keith wrote: Andy wrote: Span is used as an example of "a generic paired element". Good. That's what I was hoping. Then can we say that instead of saying SPAN? Please? :-) Perhaps adopt a convention of using or a more English friendly ‘element’ when wri

Re: [uf-discuss] Re: Precise Expansion Patterns

Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis wrote: > Here's another question that needs asking. How much real-world value > does the use of the ISO standard for date time representations > actually add in this /particular/ case (hAudio duration)? > How often do these reasons apply to hAudio duration? These questions ar

Re: [uf-new] [Fwd: Re: [uf-discuss] Re: Precise Expansion Patterns]

On Dec 17, 2007 2:12 PM, Martin McEvoy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Any misuse of the VAR element will affect how they are to be presented. > > Consider what will happen when proper use of the VAR element is > > intermingled with other use of the the VAR element as a design > > pattern. > > I am

Re: [uf-discuss] Re: Precise Expansion Patterns

Andy wrote: Span is used as an example of "a generic paired element". Good. That's what I was hoping. Then can we say that instead of saying SPAN? Please? :-) Bye, Jeremy -- Jeremy Keith a d a c t i o http://adactio.com/ ___ microformats-dis

Re: [uf-discuss] Re: Precise Expansion Patterns

Michael MD wrote: I'm a bit concerned that if important machine readable data is completely hidden, people will forget to update it when they update the page. I thought that is one of the reasons title was chosen in the first place. (showing it on hover in many browsers would act as a reminder fo

Re: [uf-discuss] Re: Precise Expansion Patterns

On Sun, December 16, 2007 17:30, Jeremy Keith wrote: > Jim wrote: > >> Span seems a more pragmatic choice to me, since title on >> supplements the enclosed text, whereas title on replaces the >> enclosed text. As someone else mentioned, for a lot of these cases we >> want to annotate a piece of t

Re: [uf-discuss] Re: Precise Expansion Patterns

Paul Wilkins wrote: Is it possible to use a relationship attribute instead? 2:23 No, that's not what REL is for. http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/links.html#adef-rel Misusing HTML 4.01 attributes to hold machine-readable data is arguably worse than (say) inventing new, non-standard attri

Re: [uf-discuss] Re: Precise Expansion Patterns

On Dec 17, 2007 10:59 AM, Michael MD <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I'm a bit concerned that if important machine readable data is completely > hidden, people will forget to update it when they update the page. > I thought that is one of the reasons title was chosen in the first place. > (showing it

Re: [uf-discuss] Re: Precise Expansion Patterns

On Sun, December 16, 2007 19:14, Manu Sporny wrote: > Paul Wilkins wrote: > >> Another possible solution is to provide greater detail for the time >> itself. >> >> 2:23 > If you are suggesting that we use the hh:mm:ss time format for > expressing duration, we cannot. That would be an abuse of the

RE: [uf-discuss] Re: Precise Expansion Patterns

-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis Sent: Monday, 17 December 2007 7:33 AM To: Microformats Discuss Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] Re: Precise Expansion Patterns Manu Sporny wrote: > There are really two questions t

Re: [uf-discuss] Re: Precise Expansion Patterns

moved to uf-new http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-new/2007-December/001330.html sorry Thanks Martin On Sun, 2007-12-16 at 21:16 +, Martin McEvoy wrote: > On Sun, 2007-12-16 at 15:09 -0500, Manu Sporny wrote: > > I'll volunteer to check out Orca and JAWS and report the findin

Re: [uf-discuss] Re: Precise Expansion Patterns

On Sun, 2007-12-16 at 15:09 -0500, Manu Sporny wrote: > I'll volunteer to check out Orca and JAWS and report the findings to > the > list, and document them in the wiki. Thank you manu :) can you please test: 2:23 I think it would be valuable to know if the @title is read out loud on uncommon

Re: [uf-discuss] Re: Precise Expansion Patterns

On 16 Dec 2007, at 20:09, Manu Sporny wrote: It is important for us to focus on the reason this discussion started in the first place: http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2007- December/011035.html The issue was accessibility, specifically, how accessible is the ABBR d

Re: [uf-discuss] Re: Precise Expansion Patterns

Manu Sporny wrote: There are really two questions that we're attempting to answer here: 1. Can we make screen readers not read the @title, of whatever element we choose, out loud? 2. Do we care that "PT2M23S" will appear if the person browsing hovers their cursor over the text denoting th

Re: [uf-discuss] Re: Precise Expansion Patterns

On Dec 17, 2007 8:14 AM, Manu Sporny <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > There are really two questions that we're attempting to answer here: > > 1. Can we make screen readers not read the @title, of whatever element >we choose, out loud? Yes, by enclosing no text inside the element. > 2. Do we care

Re: [uf-discuss] Re: Precise Expansion Patterns

Paul Wilkins wrote: > 2:23 > > With this it is not possible to prevent the title from being used by > screen readers and other people who hover their mouse over the time > value. This is not true. You can set several, of not all, screen readers to not read titles of SPAN elements. It is importan

Re: [uf-discuss] Re: Precise Expansion Patterns

On Dec 16, 2007 2:16 PM, Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Martin McEvoy wrote: > > On Sun, 2007-12-16 at 18:01 +, Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis wrote: > >> 1. Search engines currently "ignore" TITLE on non-linking A. (Does > >> anyone has any clear evidence to confirm this? Does that

Re: [uf-discuss] Re: Precise Expansion Patterns

On Sun, 2007-12-16 at 19:16 +, Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis wrote: > Martin McEvoy wrote: > > On Sun, 2007-12-16 at 18:01 +, Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis wrote: > >> 1. Search engines currently "ignore" TITLE on non-linking A. (Does > >> anyone has any clear evidence to confirm this? Does that evidence

Re: [uf-discuss] Re: Precise Expansion Patterns

Paul Wilkins wrote: > Another possible solution is to provide greater detail for the time itself. > > 2:23 > > This I understand is an acceptable title for screen readers, it > expands suitably on 2:23 (which could be 2 hours 23 minutes or 2 > minutes 23 seconds) and it's computer understandable

Re: [uf-discuss] Re: Precise Expansion Patterns

Martin McEvoy wrote: On Sun, 2007-12-16 at 18:01 +, Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis wrote: 1. Search engines currently "ignore" TITLE on non-linking A. (Does anyone has any clear evidence to confirm this? Does that evidence hold for all major engines, or only for Google? I can't find anything solid.)

Re: [uf-discuss] Re: Precise Expansion Patterns

On Dec 17, 2007 7:01 AM, Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > NB: This email isn't intended as a general endorsement of TITLE on > non-linking A. I'm deeply sceptical about misusing the TITLE attribute > for human-unfriendly data, especially on anything other than an empty > SPAN. I'm

Re: [uf-discuss] Re: Precise Expansion Patterns

On Sun, 2007-12-16 at 18:01 +, Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis wrote: > 1. Search engines currently "ignore" TITLE on non-linking A. (Does > anyone has any clear evidence to confirm this? Does that evidence > hold > for all major engines, or only for Google? I can't find anything > solid.) this may h

Re: [uf-discuss] Re: Precise Expansion Patterns

Martin McEvoy wrote: The crux of what I am trying to explain is that at the moment empty anchor text links mean nothing as far as SEO is concerned, bots will either ignore or simply erase them from there index. If we as a respected community say that empty anchor text DO mean something, then bo

Re: [uf-discuss] Re: Precise Expansion Patterns

Jim wrote: Span seems a more pragmatic choice to me, since title on supplements the enclosed text, whereas title on replaces the enclosed text. As someone else mentioned, for a lot of these cases we want to annotate a piece of text with computer-parsable information. I agree that there

Re: [uf-discuss] Re: Precise Expansion Patterns

On Sun, 2007-12-16 at 15:42 +, Martin McEvoy wrote: > On Sun, 2007-12-16 at 13:48 +, Andy Mabbett wrote: > > In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Martin > > McEvoy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes > > > > >> Moreover this is like suggesting using URL fragments (internal link > > >> anchors) in href

Re: [uf-discuss] Re: Precise Expansion Patterns

On Sun, 2007-12-16 at 13:48 +, Andy Mabbett wrote: > In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Martin > McEvoy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes > > >> Moreover this is like suggesting using URL fragments (internal link > >> anchors) in href is bad for SEO. > > > >No Im not links that go somewhere: > > > >2:2

Re: [uf-discuss] Re: Precise Expansion Patterns

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Martin McEvoy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes Moreover this is like suggesting using URL fragments (internal link anchors) in href is bad for SEO. No Im not links that go somewhere: 2:23 Is acceptable because there is an href value and it goes somewhere, no confu

Re: [uf-discuss] Re: Precise Expansion Patterns

On Sun, 2007-12-16 at 00:30 -0500, Sarven Capadisli wrote: > This is to address "SEO" and anchors () in documents. > > Fortunately, good SEO is more complex then boiling down well-ranking > in SERPs into how the anchors are set in a document. > > Regarding: http://microformats.org/wiki/anti-patte

Re: [uf-discuss] Re: Precise Expansion Patterns

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, James O'Donnell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes > >On 16 Dec 2007, at 04:28, Paul Wilkins wrote: > >> 2:23 >> >> With this it is not possible to prevent the title from being used by >> screen readers and other people who hover their mouse over the time >> value. The titl

Re: [uf-discuss] Re: Precise Expansion Patterns

On 16 Dec 2007, at 04:28, Paul Wilkins wrote: 2:23 With this it is not possible to prevent the title from being used by screen readers and other people who hover their mouse over the time value. The title is purely to provide machine readable information that is not humanly presented. Hi, J

Re: [uf-discuss] Re: Precise Expansion Patterns

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Paul Wilkins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes For the sake of simplifying things they can just as easily be SPAN elements. If the title is to not to be presented as human readable information, then the title must be wrapped around no text. 2:23 IIRC, HTML-Tidy

Re: [uf-discuss] Re: Precise Expansion Patterns

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Tantek Çelik <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes >I've drafted this wiki page >http://microformats.org/wiki/anti-patterns That page, and the glossary would benefit from a definition of "anti-pattern". -- Andy Mabbett ___

Re: [uf-discuss] Re: Precise Expansion Patterns

This is to address "SEO" and anchors () in documents. Fortunately, good SEO is more complex then boiling down well-ranking in SERPs into how the anchors are set in a document. Regarding: http://microformats.org/wiki/anti-patterns#empty_hyperlinks point A) if there is no href attribute and value

Re: [uf-discuss] Re: Precise Expansion Patterns

On Dec 16, 2007 1:39 PM, Martin McEvoy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > my > boss looks at my work and says "what are all these empty anchors > about"... pause right there... any SEO worth his salt will know anchor > text links that go nowhere, will A, reduce the quality of out going > links from your

Re: [uf-discuss] Re: Precise Expansion Patterns

On 12/15/07 4:39 PM, "Martin McEvoy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > OK Paul, lets try and put that in the real world, My client has a music > store with around 500 pages of content and around 10 to 20 items of > hAudio on each page, My client want's their pages to validate and be > accessible.. no p

Re: [uf-discuss] Re: Precise Expansion Patterns

On Sun, 2007-12-16 at 12:28 +1300, Paul Wilkins wrote: > On Dec 16, 2007 11:52 AM, Martin McEvoy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > The empty although valid, seems nasty to me and a little anti!, > > microformats are supposed to represent the data they contain...are they? > > > As I was saying, this

Re: [uf-discuss] Re: Precise Expansion Patterns

On Dec 16, 2007 11:52 AM, Martin McEvoy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The empty although valid, seems nasty to me and a little anti!, > microformats are supposed to represent the data they contain...are they? As I was saying, this is why there has been so much debate about this and it's why compr

Re: [uf-discuss] Re: Precise Expansion Patterns

Hello Paul On Sun, 2007-12-16 at 10:27 +1300, Paul Wilkins wrote: > On Dec 16, 2007 8:00 AM, Manu Sporny <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > What was the problem with the SPAN approach, again? > > > > 3:23 > > > > - You can set most, if not all, screen readers to not verbalize @title > > in SPAN. > >

Re: [uf-discuss] Re: Precise Expansion Patterns

On Dec 16, 2007 8:00 AM, Manu Sporny <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > What was the problem with the SPAN approach, again? > > 3:23 > > - You can set most, if not all, screen readers to not verbalize @title > in SPAN. > - We're not abusing ABBR. I've been looking carefully through the HTML 4.01 specs

[uf-discuss] Re: Precise Expansion Patterns

Paul Wilkins wrote: > The hAudio time should be denoted in seconds. If 3:23 is given it's to > be seen as three minutes and twenty two seconds. If hours are needed > it should be 1:3:23 (0 prefix optional) to denote 1 hour three minutes > and twenty two seconds. > > This way the hAudio standard ca

[uf-discuss] Re: Precise Expansion Patterns

Paul Wilkins wrote: On Dec 15, 2007 8:21 AM, Ben Ward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Agreed. I'll repost something I put into the GEO thread last week. It's quoting directly from the HTML4 specification. This doesn't actually need to have any concern with accessibility, or assistive technology tools