Re: [uf-discuss] Easy book citations
I think one of the stumbling blocks we're having here is trying to figure out what we're really using citations for. 1) There's obviously a group that wants this data to be used with bibliographic management software 2) There's a group that wants these citations to be able to link to fulltext/print/etc. for any person's library 3) There's a group (I think?) that wants to be able to display properly formatted citations (or, at least more properly). Are we leaving a scenario out? #3 seems the most complicated. If the goals of #1 are met, then #2 will most likely be met, as well (although not necessarily the reverse). Does this seem accurate? -Ross. On 7/30/06, Edward Summers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jul 30, 2006, at 2:08 PM, Tantek Çelik wrote: What if we set a goal for hCite 0.1 of August 30? Is that reasonable? If Brian Suda has the spare cycles I think this is an excellent idea. The citation effort has gone on for a long time, so Simon's questions are most welcome. //Ed___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Easy book citations
Ross Singer: 1) There's obviously a group that wants this data to be used with bibliographic management software 2) There's a group that wants these citations to be able to link to fulltext/print/etc. for any person's library 3) There's a group (I think?) that wants to be able to display properly formatted citations (or, at least more properly). I think I'm in group 0. :) I just want to mark up the fact that bits of my pages are talking about books, so that other semantic web applications (All Consuming, etc.) can eat my data. I kind of thought that was what it was all about. -- Those who do not understand Unix are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. - Henry Spencer, University of Toronto Unix hack ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Easy book citations
Why don't we call you '#4', rather than '0' (sheesh!). And, yes, this is, obviously, a fairly large (and good) use case. Although, honestly, if you're just trying to say, This is a book, UID might be a better choice (I mean, if you're really just identifying things). -Ross. On 7/31/06, Simon Cozens [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ross Singer: 1) There's obviously a group that wants this data to be used with bibliographic management software 2) There's a group that wants these citations to be able to link to fulltext/print/etc. for any person's library 3) There's a group (I think?) that wants to be able to display properly formatted citations (or, at least more properly). I think I'm in group 0. :) I just want to mark up the fact that bits of my pages are talking about books, so that other semantic web applications (All Consuming, etc.) can eat my data. I kind of thought that was what it was all about. -- Those who do not understand Unix are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. - Henry Spencer, University of Toronto Unix hack ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: Re: [uf-discuss] rev'ing rel-directory
The whole rel/rev is a facinating concept. A while ago i had a few discussions with the guys setting-up http://folksr.de/ they are working on a distributed voting system[1]. They are using rev=vote-for, so people would add a vote-link to a page they specificed, then as they got referrers they would crawl the pages and get vote-value from the rev. In this case REV is correct, This pages is a vote-for that other page, but what they also wanted to do was collect a list of everyone who voted for a given page and display it on that page (sort of trackbacks). Now in that case REL would be correct. That page is a vote-for this page, so depending on your vantage point, it is REL or REV. The rel-directory would work in a very similar fashion. Rel to get into the dir, but the dir is rev'd back to you. -brian [1] - http://www.artweb-design.de/articles/tag/microformats On 7/30/06, Chris Messina [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For this transclusion stuff, there are two promising projects that I think we should all look at... First is PopupPoliticians, which uses the rel-tag to pull up remote information about politicians: http://sunlightlabs.com/popuppoliticians/ The second is a new and very excellent WordPress plugin that captures onclick events to dynamically repopulate divs on a page: http://www.giannim.com/blog/index.php?page_id=13 These two things show the promise of getting remote content into a page... either from the current domain or a remote one. Being able to do something similar with group membership (i.e. I link to someone else from a Group page and use something like rev=directory or rev=member to identify that relationship and then to pull in remote info about that member). Anyway -- the rev stuff is certainly interesting... real implementations would be pretty cool to see! Chris On 7/30/06, Danny Ayers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm afraid I've missed discussions around rel-directory [1], but was prompted to take a look after stumbling over an OPML distributed directories tutorial [2], wondering how best to do this using microformats. OPML uses an attribute called inclusion to say that a remote hierarchical dir is a sub dir of the local element. It's a neat idea, essentially Gopher on top of HTTP+XML. But given the linking capablitities of HTML, the OPML is redundant, as long as there is a way of expressing inclusion. rel-directory would appear to be in the frame for an alternative based on existing standards, only it's directed the opposite way : rel=directory indicates that the referenced resource is a directory which does or should contain the current page But HTML to the rescue, how about: rev=directory indicates that the current element is a directory element which contains the referenced resource Does that make sense? The most obvious application of this would be in XOXO documents, along the lines of the distributed dir idea. A potentially cool demo application might be to transclude [3] any remote page, stripped down to hierarchy+ labelled links. If this was done to one level of transclusion, and the links in the remote page rewritten to something like http://mydir.org/tree?remote=http://thatpage.com/stuff so they could be fed through the tree-browser, the demo could reveal the current web as a World Outline. Anyone got a bit of Ajax time on their hands? Cheers, Danny. [1] http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-directory [2] http://hosting.opml.org/amyloo/osite/help/howtos/distdir.htm [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transclusion -- http://dannyayers.com ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss -- Chris Messina Agent Provocateur, Citizen Agency Open Source Ambassador-at-Large Work: http://citizenagency.com Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog Cell: 412 225-1051 Skype: factoryjoe This email is: [ ] bloggable[X] ask first [ ] private ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: Re: [uf-discuss] Easy book citations
I do have some spare cycles (not many), but i'm always up for a challenge, August 30 is acceptable. p class=shameless-plug I have to prep some for my talk at EuroOSCON in september, hopefully i can add some citation stuff in there as well. If anyone else will be attended feel free to say hello in person. /p p class=shameless-plug The other thing that is keeping very busy is that i am putting some final touches on a Introduction to Microformats eBook for O'Reilly, which is due in a few weeks. It is part of their shortcuts series and i'll post a link once it is available. /p A few of the other things to clarify and point out from where we left off and to bring people up to speed. 1) The list of properties available in the straw proposal may look long and unweildy, but that is just a FRACTION of what was available. It may not seem like we started simple but if you knew what is out there, you'd realise that we did! The way we arrived at those properties are as follows: We examined several of the most popular formats, and took the UNION of their common terms. We then examined examples in the wild and then took a UNION of those terms and the common terms of the formats to arrive at the short list in the strawman. 2) Much like hCard, you don't have to use the FULL microformat. hCard has options for ORG, ADR, etc. If you wanted to just represent a structured name, there is no need to create a microformat, just use the parts of hCard you need. This citation microformat will be similar. If you want to JUST have a book title, then this format will sufice, it is just like any of the other microformats, beyond the required properties, everything is optional! 3) One of the other things we wanted to look out for was the emergence of the media-info format. There has been some movement on that. We wanted to be sure that the way a citation describes a book/CD/DVD is not incompatable to that of a media-info format. Arguing end-user formats, i think, it is moot. Once we have a solid citation microformat that covers the 80/20 of the common terms within the citation formats AND citations in the wild, you will be able to transform that HTML into BibTeX, COiNS, OpenURL, MS Word ODF Citation, CSV, or any that pop-up in the future - you can even style it in Plain-Text as MLA, Chicago Style, or any other. I'll do some homework and get caught-up with all the developments since our last major discussion. -brian On 7/30/06, Edward Summers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jul 30, 2006, at 2:08 PM, Tantek Çelik wrote: What if we set a goal for hCite 0.1 of August 30? Is that reasonable? If Brian Suda has the spare cycles I think this is an excellent idea. The citation effort has gone on for a long time, so Simon's questions are most welcome. //Ed___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Easy book citations
On 7/31/06, Ross Singer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think one of the stumbling blocks we're having here is trying to figure out what we're really using citations for. 1) There's obviously a group that wants this data to be used with bibliographic management software 2) There's a group that wants these citations to be able to link to fulltext/print/etc. for any person's library 3) There's a group (I think?) that wants to be able to display properly formatted citations (or, at least more properly). Are we leaving a scenario out? #3 seems the most complicated. If the goals of #1 are met, then #2 will most likely be met, as well (although not necessarily the reverse). Does this seem accurate? On 3, I've been working on cracking the formatting nut for the past couple years, and am just about done [1]. It is indeed quite difficult, but I mostly see it as distantly related to hCite. But I see citation metadata as a cycle. I want ulitmately to be able to output good uF metadata such that users can: - view a nicely formatted document in their browser, complete with proper citations - click some button and go to the original article or book - click some other thingy and import citations into my browser-based reference database (coming real soon, GPL licensed!), or copy-and paste the citation content directly into Word or OpenOffice - be able to use that data to create other documents with citations So yeah, a good data format supports 3, though is not so much its own requirement. Bruce [1] http://netapps.muohio.edu/blogs/darcusb/darcusb/archives/2006/07/29/csl-progress ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Easy book citations
On Jul 30, 2006, at 3:37 AM, Ciaran McNulty wrote: (It may be possible to do without the inner DIV and apply the fn to the outer one, I'm not 100% clear on whether the fn has to be on a child element of the vcard). FAQ: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-faq (#17). -ryan ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Easy book citations
Ross, I think one of the stumbling blocks we're having here is trying to figure out what we're really using citations for. ... Are we leaving a scenario out? I have a lot of interest shown by Australian government developers - basically every one I mention ufs to independently says a format for citations would be great. What they need is for is that any time a government publication refers to any other publication (a site, a book, a pamphlet on immunisation, a poster on healthy diets, whatever) they have to cite it. But of course there is no citation format. I actually am planning a developer day in the next month or so for government web developers to introduce the ideas and take a good long look at hCite from the perspective of the uf principles. I actually think a reasonably minimal set of properties would suffice for their needs, but hope to find out first hand soon. BTW, any Australian, particularly Canberra based (I'm in Sydney but the interest is federal government developers) people, but really anyone keen to meetup in either place and or chat more on this, please drop me a line john #3 seems the most complicated. If the goals of #1 are met, then #2 will most likely be met, as well (although not necessarily the reverse). Does this seem accurate? -Ross. On 7/30/06, Edward Summers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jul 30, 2006, at 2:08 PM, Tantek Çelik wrote: What if we set a goal for hCite 0.1 of August 30? Is that reasonable? If Brian Suda has the spare cycles I think this is an excellent idea. The citation effort has gone on for a long time, so Simon's questions are most welcome. //Ed___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher WebPatterns :: http://webpatterns.org Web Directions Conference :: Sydney September 28-29 :: http://wd06.com ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
