Re: [uf-new] hAudio: audio-title/album-title vs. recording/album
So we leave album-title and audio-title as it is? Or are we going to talk about it? Thanks Martin On Tue, 2007-10-09 at 21:22 +0100, Martin McEvoy wrote: Hello Manu On Tue, 2007-10-09 at 00:03 -0400, Manu Sporny wrote: One of the last remaining (and most pedantic) issues for hAudio is the naming of the audio-title and album-title properties. This includes the following issues (we could close them all if we can finally decide on these two names): hAudio ISSUE #2: audio-title Property http://microformats.org/wiki/audio-info-issues#audio-title_Property hAudio ISSUE #9: album-title Property http://microformats.org/wiki/audio-info-issues#album-title_Property hAudio ISSUE #10: Collection Names http://microformats.org/wiki/audio-info-issues#Collection_Names The primary issue that I have with audio-title and album-title is that they are not orthogonal in the programming language sense: http://www.lrdev.com/lr/frequently-asked-questions.html#programming-language-orthogonality audio-title is the title of a singular/atomic audio expression. It is a rather general term used to identify a singular work. album-title is the title of an audio album. It is a specific term used to identify a collection of singular works that are in an album/track format. To add to the complexity of the semantics behind these two terms, they not only denote the title, but the type of the hAudio as well. The question is: Can we make these terms more orthogonal to publishers. Can we choose terms that denote both title and type. The first attempt was to name them something like the following: recording-title and album-title The use of -title seemed a bit redundant, so it was dropped to form: recording and album Speaking and reading the words in context makes sense: hAudio recording hAudio album whereas speaking and reading what we have currently doesn't really make sense: hAudio audio-title (specifies the recording title AND the hAudio type) hAudio album-title (specifies the album title AND the hAudio type) There is also only one example to back-up using the *-title pattern in Microformats, that being ENTRY-TITLE in hAtom. There are, however, loads of examples of taking the other approach, which is using nouns to denote title (type): author (Person), item (Thing), label (Identifier), locality (Place), logo (Image), note (Text), photo (Image), summary (Text), region (Place), reviewer (Person), sound (Sound), and title (Text) are a handful of examples of nouns being used to denote title and type. The best that we've been able to do has been RECORDING and ALBUM. Any suggestions on addressing these issues? In Principle I agree with you certainly *album-title* and *audio-title* don't seem to sit right and are causing some problems as regards naming and definition, we do have to resolve these issues. Also *track* to me is causing similar concerns. +1 for changing album-title to just album because on its own it is both type and title My concern is recording although the name suggests type and title, I dont think it is specific enough Its still a very loose term to describe what actually may be a recording or just the title itself. I know I have brought up that we re use ITEM from hReview before on the list but I guess I didnt explain my reasoning correctly, and I never really understood why It is that we cant use ITEM, because from what i can glean from the wiki and how people use it in other formats such as rss It seems to do exactly what we need. So please consider again. so another attempt at simplifying hAudio using my previous example div class=haudio span class=albumBest Before 1984/span By span class=contributorCrass/span [...] div class=item span class=trackNagasaki Nightmare/span abbr class=duration title=P268T4:46/abbr /div div class=item span class=trackBig A, Little A /span abbr class=duration title=P368T 6:13/abbr /div [...] /div If we were to do this in hReview the markup would be.. [...] div class=item span class=fnNagasaki Nightmare/span abbr class=duration title=P268T4:46/abbr /div [...] The above markup does seem to make hAudio compact and clean no confusion about what our hAudio properties mean? Comments? Thanks Martin -- manu PS: Keep in mind that RECORDING can be re-used in hVideo. ___ microformats-new mailing list microformats-new@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-new ___ microformats-new mailing list microformats-new@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-new
Re: [uf-new] hAudio: audio-title/album-title vs. recording/album
On 10/12/07, Manu Sporny [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Martin McEvoy wrote: So we leave album-title and audio-title as it is? Or are we going to talk about it? I was giving others at least a week to weigh in on the issue if they wanted to... didn't want to front-load the discussion. :) --- i was under the impression this was still an open issue that is already solved with FN. I was unaware this was still a discussion point. -brian -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk ___ microformats-new mailing list microformats-new@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-new
Re: [uf-new] hAudio: audio-title/album-title vs. recording/album
On Oct 12, 2007, at 2:01 PM, Manu Sporny wrote: If we were to use FN, it would be impossible to distinguish between an album (an concept that can contain more than one hAudio) and a song/speech (an individual hAudio). I don't think that's true. hCard uses FN for two different types of contacts: organizations and people. The main item's name is class=fn. If that main item is an organization, it's class=fn org. If the main item is a person within a stated organization, the person's name is class=fn and the organization's class=org. hAudio is only slightly more complicated because we can also have an album with several tracks, whereas we never use a single hCard to list an organization and several members. For that case we could still use track. Examples of how this might work based on Julian's earlier examples: Single track, with known album (same as putting text in the ‘album’ field of an ID3 tag): span class=haudio span class=fnNagasaki Nightmare/span span class=albumBest Before 1984/span span class=contributorCrass/span /span Single track, album unknown: span class=haudio span class=fnNagasaki Nightmare/span span class=contributorCrass/span /span Album: span class=haudio span class=fn albumBest Before 1984/span span class=contributorCrass/span /span Album with a couple of tracks, simple example: span class=haudio span class=fn albumBest Before 1984/span span class=contributorCrass/span span class=trackNagasaki Nightmare/span span class=trackNagasaki Nightmare/span span class=trackNagasaki Nightmare/span /span Album with a couple of tracks, more detailed: span class=haudio span class=fn albumBest Before 1984/span span class=contributorCrass/span span class=track haudiospan class=fnNagasaki Nightmare/ span – abbr class=duration title=P268T4:46/abbr/span span class=track haudiospan class=fnNagasaki Nightmare/ span – abbr class=duration title=P268T4:46/abbr/span span class=track haudiospan class=fnNagasaki Nightmare/ span – abbr class=duration title=P268T4:46/abbr/span /span -- Scott Reynen MakeDataMakeSense.com ___ microformats-new mailing list microformats-new@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-new
Re: [uf-new] hAudio: audio-title/album-title vs. recording/album
On Fri, 2007-10-12 at 14:41 -0600, Scott Reynen wrote: On Oct 12, 2007, at 2:01 PM, Manu Sporny wrote: If we were to use FN, it would be impossible to distinguish between an album (an concept that can contain more than one hAudio) and a song/speech (an individual hAudio). I don't think that's true. hCard uses FN for two different types of contacts: organizations and people. The main item's name is class=fn. If that main item is an organization, it's class=fn org. If the main item is a person within a stated organization, the person's name is class=fn and the organization's class=org. hAudio is only slightly more complicated because we can also have an album with several tracks, whereas we never use a single hCard to list an organization and several members. For that case we could still use track. Examples of how this might work based on Julian's earlier examples: Single track, with known album (same as putting text in the ‘album’ field of an ID3 tag): span class=haudio span class=fnNagasaki Nightmare/span span class=albumBest Before 1984/span span class=contributorCrass/span /span Single track, album unknown: span class=haudio span class=fnNagasaki Nightmare/span span class=contributorCrass/span /span Album: span class=haudio span class=fn albumBest Before 1984/span span class=contributorCrass/span /span Album with a couple of tracks, simple example: span class=haudio span class=fn albumBest Before 1984/span span class=contributorCrass/span span class=trackNagasaki Nightmare/span span class=trackNagasaki Nightmare/span span class=trackNagasaki Nightmare/span /span Album with a couple of tracks, more detailed: span class=haudio span class=fn albumBest Before 1984/span span class=contributorCrass/span span class=track haudiospan class=fnNagasaki Nightmare/ span – abbr class=duration title=P268T4:46/abbr/span span class=track haudiospan class=fnNagasaki Nightmare/ span – abbr class=duration title=P268T4:46/abbr/span span class=track haudiospan class=fnNagasaki Nightmare/ span – abbr class=duration title=P268T4:46/abbr/span /span Hello Scott I have been thinking recently that it is perhaps best to use something that everyone is familiar with *FN* but I thought that it would be simpler just to use *track* to imply type and title I also don't think it is best practice to embed haudios *inside* haudio, I think of it like a hfeed element in hAtom or the Channel element in RSS, also would you embed hfeed's inside other hfeed's? David Janes made some good proposal back in November about a hTing uF http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2006-November/007139.html which eventually turned into a hItem design pattern/uF proposed by Andy Mabbett http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2006-November/007281.html there is a brainstorm about the hItem uf/item design pattern http://microformats.org/wiki/items-brainstorming So I thought simple solution div class=haudio span class=albumBest Before 1984/span span class=contributorCrass/span div class=item span class=trackNagasaki Nightmare/span abbr class=duration title=P268T4:46/abbr /div div class=item span class=trackBig A, Little A /span abbr class=duration title=P368T 6:13/abbr /div /div /div Elegant I would say? It solves the problem of do we use FN audio-title, whatever... We have established that we cant use FN because want to describe something MORE specific http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-new/2007-May/000355.html http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-new/2007-May/000357.html And also we dont need to use either FN or audio-title because track I understand has to have the exact semantic value as album The example above shows how to clearly define both track and album Comments? Thanks Martin -- Scott Reynen MakeDataMakeSense.com ___ microformats-new mailing list microformats-new@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-new ___ microformats-new mailing list microformats-new@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-new
Re: [uf-new] hAudio: audio-title/album-title vs. recording/album
On Sat, 2007-10-13 at 00:26 +0100, Martin McEvoy wrote: think of it like a hfeed element in hAtom or the Channel element in RSS, also would you embed hfeed's inside other hfeed's? Hmm thats not perhaps correct :) more like entry's Thanks Martin ___ microformats-new mailing list microformats-new@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-new
Re: [uf-new] hAudio: audio-title/album-title vs. recording/album
On Sat, 2007-10-13 at 00:26 +0100, Martin McEvoy wrote: div class=haudio span class=albumBest Before 1984/span span class=contributorCrass/span div class=item span class=trackNagasaki Nightmare/span abbr class=duration title=P268T4:46/abbr /div div class=item span class=trackBig A, Little A /span abbr class=duration title=P368T 6:13/abbr /div /div /div I am making an ass of myself tonight sorry one too many /div I should learn to check my copy and pasting. Oh well I guess you guys are used to me now :) Martin ___ microformats-new mailing list microformats-new@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-new
Re: [uf-new] hAudio: audio-title/album-title vs. recording/album
Scott Reynen wrote: On Oct 12, 2007, at 2:01 PM, Manu Sporny wrote: If we were to use FN, it would be impossible to distinguish between an album (an concept that can contain more than one hAudio) and a song/speech (an individual hAudio). I don't think that's true. hCard uses FN for two different types of contacts: organizations and people. The main item's name is class=fn. If that main item is an organization, it's class=fn org. Single track, with known album (same as putting text in the ‘album’ field of an ID3 tag): span class=haudio span class=fnNagasaki Nightmare/span span class=albumBest Before 1984/span span class=contributorCrass/span /span Single track, album unknown: span class=haudio span class=fnNagasaki Nightmare/span span class=contributorCrass/span /span Album: span class=haudio span class=fn albumBest Before 1984/span span class=contributorCrass/span /span Album with a couple of tracks, simple example: span class=haudio span class=fn albumBest Before 1984/span span class=contributorCrass/span span class=trackNagasaki Nightmare/span span class=trackNagasaki Nightmare/span span class=trackNagasaki Nightmare/span /span Album with a couple of tracks, more detailed: span class=haudio span class=fn albumBest Before 1984/span span class=contributorCrass/span span class=track haudiospan class=fnNagasaki Nightmare/span – abbr class=duration title=P268T4:46/abbr/span span class=track haudiospan class=fnNagasaki Nightmare/span – abbr class=duration title=P268T4:46/abbr/span span class=track haudiospan class=fnNagasaki Nightmare/span – abbr class=duration title=P268T4:46/abbr/span /span Scott... this is fantastic! Thank you for proving me wrong! :) I think this is our front-runner for replacing audio-title and album-title. Finally! It re-uses FN without being ambiguous about the difference between a single audio recording and an album. We simultaneously remove the need for audio-title. Does this also work for the Suda-nator (Brian Suda)? Martin, can you post some markup for the same 5 examples above using your proposal? We'll weigh the pros/cons for Scott's proposal and your proposal... I'm dropping my proposal in preference of Scott's. -- manu ___ microformats-new mailing list microformats-new@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-new
