Re: OpenBSD as a NAS
Ashton Fagg wrote: > Hi all, > > I'm currently in the process of provisioning a new NAS for home. It's > replacing an older Synology unit that ticks me off in so many ways. > > I am looking to hear other's experiences with using OpenBSD as a NAS - > specifically in terms of reliability, and for suggestions on how to > provision my storage. > In my experience practical, answerable OpenBSD specific questions based on actual problems that people face are more likely to get you an answer on this mailing list than inviting subscribers to share their experience and opinions. Here is my experience/opinion. OpenBSD is super simple and most reliable OS I have personally dealt with but the storage OS, it is not. Nevertheless some people are using in that capacity and to paraphrase Nick's point if OpenBSD is your goto OS, there is nothing wrong in storing and sharing a few files of OpenBSD box instead of picking up and introducing another OS into your home environment. Building a home NAS involves solving the following five sub-problems. 1. The choice of volume manager (HWRaid vs SoftRaid vs ZFS). 2. The choice of file system (legacy vs modern (ZFS, HAMMER, HAMMER2). 3. How are you going to share the files (NFS, SMB, GlusterFS) 4. How are you going to back up your NAS server (tape, disk, remote machine) 5. Inquiry, monitoring, and alerting of your NAS server for data integrity and performance. > I have an LSI card (supported by the drivers in OpenBSD) that is > currently flashed to IT mode, but it can of course flashed back to the > IR firmware which lets it act as a hardware RAID controller. > So we are now talking about the volume manager. I have not used HWRaid on OpenBSD but I have used SoftRAID. oko# bioctl softraid0 Volume Status Size Device softraid0 0 Online 2000396018176 sd3 RAID1 0 Online 2000396018176 0:0.0 noencl 1 Online 2000396018176 0:1.0 noencl At my place of employment I have used high end LSI HWRaid cards, I have used Linux SoftRAID, and I am currently using ZFS (FreeBSD). I would not recommend HWRaid cards to a home user. Between Linux SoftRAID and ZFS on FreeBSD, ZFS wins hands down. That being said I neither have a need nor a hardware good enough to use ZFS at home. Comparing to Linux SoftRAID, OpenBSD is super crude. Once upon a time I accidently off lined one of the HDDs in RAID1 mirror. It took probably 2 days to rebuild 2TB mirror. The things might have improved. Look for the posts of Karel Gardas who IIRC was one of the guys fiddling with SoftRAID after the original creator Marco Peereboom left the project probably 10 years ago. If you have more than a 1-2 TB of data I would be very worried about using OpenBSD softraid. The best thing is to test before your commit. > > My needs for the NAS are as follows: NFS and Samba share support, That is item 3 on my list. I have not run Samba server of OpenBSD box. I have run NFSv3 server for educational purposes and I currently use OpenBSD NFSv3 client. My needs are very limited so I am not sure if much has changed since Matt Dillon of DragonFly BSD fame gave me a bit of education http://lists.dragonflybsd.org/pipermail/users/2016-April/228719.html > reasonable performance, some amount of tolerance to disk failure, > reliable and trustworthy software and file system, ability to closely This is item 2 on my list. OpenBSD doesn't have a "modern" file system but that is also true for most other actively developed OSs with exception of FreeBSD and DragonFly BSD. Note that I don't consider Illumos kernel and OmniOS in particular activelly developed systems. ZFS on Linux is PITA and on the NetBSD doesn't look much better. If you need copy-on-write, check-sums, consistency and such your choice is pretty much among ZFS, Hammer, and Hammer2. If you stick with OpenBSD's FFS2 start by looking for Solene Rapenne's posts and his blog https://dataswamp.org/~solene/2017-03-17-integrity.html > monitor disk/array health. By extension, it should also be as simple as > possible. That is item 5 on my list. In my experience bioctl is good enough for home users. YMMV. Start by reading https://www.openbsd.org/papers/opencon06-bio.pdf I wish somebody could point me to anything more recent. > > It might be nice to have it be able to host an iSCSI volume, but that's > not essential. I am confused now. You said you are building NAS. Now you are talking about SAN. I would suggest you familiarize yourself with this paper before going further https://www.open-e.com/site_media/download/documents/Open-E-white-paper-EN-web.pdf > > I don't care about bleeding edge performance, fancy web UIs or any other > "shiny" stuff. > > By my estimates, OpenBSD with softraid volumes should tick all of those > boxes. The box will do nothing else besides be a file server. OpenBSD is > my preferred OS nowadays, but I am open to
Re: PayPal pool for developer M1 Mac mini for OpenBSD port
Thanks everyone, this is very good news. Some people are maybe upset by Apple's recent move, but I think OpenBSD devs should be the most enthusiast. In a world of IT hell, "paradise" (simple, neat) software should welcome "paradise" hardware & infrastructure, this is why there was so much chipping in only a few days I think. "simple, neat" hardware & infrastructure doesn't mean "pull in more energy, make it hotter, more complex, and do everything". "free software" is really a way to enrich "some companies" to provide them complex technology for free while labelling "non free" stuff as evil. Someone has to do simple, neat hard and it has always been Apple. Cooperating will certainly lead to good results because companies like Apple put goodness before everything else, otherwise they wouldn't do what they are doing now. (ditching Them) Just throwing in random opinions for those who mistake free software and goodness, it's not as simple. Apple Silicon a lot faster and neat for less power, this is the way to the future. Of course you cannot disclose everything as soon as you release it because otherwise "they" would try to terminate it and nothing would ever be done. Chippers are wiser than fear mongerers Kawashima (just a periodic donator) > R2/12/04 8:12、Tom Smyth のメール: > > Thanks Patrik, Marcan, and Theo... > > Interesting project... OpenBSD on the M1 :) ... best of luck with it > > > >> On Thu, 3 Dec 2020 at 22:11, Patrick Wildt wrote: >> >> This really has shown how much interest there is in having OpenBSD >> running on those machines. Still, we would all not be here without >> the OpenBSD project itself. Not being able to host hackathons due to >> COVID-19 leaves an impact, and I hope that soon(TM) we'll be able to >> get back together to shut up and hack. >> >> I'm sure you all love using OpenBSD and hacking on OpenBSD as much as I >> do, so to help OpenBSD run infrastructure, organize hackathons and to >> flourish even more, please consider donating! >> >> https://www.openbsdfoundation.org/donations.html >> https://www.openbsd.org/donations.html >> >> Also a shoutout to marcan, who'll be doing a lot of reverse engineering >> on the M1. He's pretty good, and I'm supporting his project by being a >> patron. I'm looking forward to his work, because of all the people out >> there who can do it, he's definitely one of them. >> >> https://www.patreon.com/marcan >> >> Patrick >> >> Am Thu, Dec 03, 2020 at 02:33:34PM -0700 schrieb Ben Goren: >>> Oh, wow — it hasn’t even been a full day since I sent this out...and >> already enough of you have chipped in enough to buy not just a single M1 >> system for Patrick, but also a second one for his partner in crime, Mark >> Kettenis. >>> >>> Thank you to all! This show of generosity and support and excitement is >> most welcome. (And, frankly, a bit overwhelming.) >>> >>> If anybody reading this still wishes to donate to the cause, despite the >> immediate needs being met, the money will be put to good use. There are >> other developers who will eventually need their own hardware, and there are >> always other sorts of expenses related to development. Feel free to chip in >> at Patrick’s original link: >>> >>> https://www.paypal.com/pools/c/8uPSkfNJMp >>> >>> ...or, of course, to the OpenBSD general fund (which can *ALWAYS* use >> donations): >>> >>> https://www.openbsd.org/donations.html >>> >>> Thanks again, everybody! >>> >>> b& >>> On Dec 2, 2020, at 2:59 PM, Ben Goren wrote: Greetings, all! Patrick Wildt has set up a PayPal pool to raise funds to purchase an >> M1 Mac mini so he can start porting OpenBSD to the platform. If you’d like >> to be able to run OpenBSD on an M1 system, now would be a great time to >> throw some pennies his way. The donation link: https://paypal.me/pools/c/8uPSkfNJMp Read below for an idea of what one might expect if we can get a >> machine into Patrick’s hands. Cheers, b& Patrick wrote: > Yes, kettenis@ and me are the two ones doing the major work on >> porting > to new devices. Not sure if kettenis@ is interested, but I can ask >> him. > I definitely am, a Mac Mini as a dedicated machine to do stuff with >> and > not care about what is installed would really help. > > Marcan has started a crowdfunding on Patreon. He's a really capable > person, and he'll definitely lay a lot of groundwork needed for >> porting > OpenBSD to the platform. He apparenetly will also do his work in a > dual-licensed fashion, so the BSDs will easily profit from it. > > So, the first steps are basically to follow Marcan's work and use all > that information and code to port OpenBSD as well. > > This *will* take some time, because essentially there are only the > binary drivers, but it's doable and I think with a bit of patience > we will have OpenBSD running
Re: OpenBSD as a NAS
On 2020-12-02 18:19, Ashton Fagg wrote: > Hi all, > > I'm currently in the process of provisioning a new NAS for home. It's > replacing an older Synology unit that ticks me off in so many ways. > > I am looking to hear other's experiences with using OpenBSD as a NAS - > specifically in terms of reliability, and for suggestions on how to > provision my storage. > > I have an LSI card (supported by the drivers in OpenBSD) that is > currently flashed to IT mode, but it can of course flashed back to the > IR firmware which lets it act as a hardware RAID controller. > > My needs for the NAS are as follows: NFS and Samba share support, > reasonable performance, some amount of tolerance to disk failure, > reliable and trustworthy software and file system, ability to closely > monitor disk/array health. By extension, it should also be as simple as > possible. > > It might be nice to have it be able to host an iSCSI volume, but that's > not essential. > > I don't care about bleeding edge performance, fancy web UIs or any other > "shiny" stuff. > > By my estimates, OpenBSD with softraid volumes should tick all of those > boxes. The box will do nothing else besides be a file server. OpenBSD is > my preferred OS nowadays, but I am open to something else if it's the > best tool for the job. I guess I'm trying to find out if there's any > compelling reason why I *shouldn't* use OpenBSD with softraid. > > (ZFS also scares me, btw. Maybe unjustifiably so, but it seems very > complex and I suspect much of the hype comes down to zealotry and > fanboyism.) that was my ZFS experience. That, and the regular, "$PRODUCT is the answer, what was your question?". ZFS is one of those $PRODUCTs... > The questions I have are: > > a) Is softraid reliable enough to support my use-case? Does anyone have > anecdotes to encourage/discourage use of softraid for this application? I've been using it in various ways for many years. I'm happy with it. HOWEVER, before you go live, build an array. Replace a disk. Rebuild the array. Basically do everything you might someday have to do in an emergency...do it now before you load your data. > b) Would I be better off using the LSI RAID controller for the arrays? One, no. Two, maybe. Nice thing about software RAID in general is it's hw agnostic. If your system dies, it's easy to move your drives to another machine, maybe with very different hw (for example, I've moved Softraid between pcide(4) systems and ahci(4) systems. Just works). With HW raid, you really HAVE to have a spare RAID card on the shelf ready to do use in case your existing one fails. You won't plug your old drives into another card and have them recognized. HW RAID can be fast. It /can/ be easily managed in OpenBSD if bioctl recognizes your controller. But it is very dependent on the underlying hw. It can also bite you in the butt if it turns out to be quirkier than you expected. I can make a very good case for both HW and SW RAID -- and at this point in my life, if anyone tells you one is absolutely the answer, I'm going to say this person lacks some experience. > c) Bearing in mind that the provisioning scheme I have in mind is to > provision the disks in pairs (forming RAID1 arrays), thus resulting in > 3-4 separate volumes (6-8 disks), is there any reason I should *not* use > OpenBSD, and look more toward something like TrueNAS or FreeBSD? If your weapon of choice is OpenBSD, you will be happy using OpenBSD softraid, much more than trying to pick up another OS for a theoretical advantage. I like your plan. With Softraid, your entire disk should be one RAID array. You can then slice up that RAID array into sub partitions. (i.e., other software RAID systems are different -- for example, Solaris would mirror individual partitions, rather than entire disks). Keeping your arrays simple means your data is more likely to be there when things go wrong (and they always do). > (Before anyone mentions it - Yes, I have a proper backup system. I do > not rely on the redundancy provided by RAID arrays in lieu of a real > backup. I have both a local backup and offsite backup.) Good. :) Nick.
Re: PayPal pool for developer M1 Mac mini for OpenBSD port
Otto Moerbeek writes: > It's a new interesting ARM platform with very good performance. Yes, > it is closed but it's also kind of a nice challenge to overcome that > hurdle. So mixed feelings about that part. Let's not also forget that it gives people a choice as to what software they can run - rather than having to run something out of necessity (i.e. macOS) because it's the only thing that will run. Is that not the dictionary definition of "vendor lock-in"? :-) It's probably more of an investment in the future, since somewhere down the line Apple will decide they want to extract some more money from their users, and stop supporting that particular piece of hardware. What do you do then? You either put up with running an old, out-of-date version of macOS on your perfectly good hardware, give up and buy new hardware, or, you start looking at alternative OS to run. OpenBSD being one of those alternatives would be splendid. That's not to say that if I had some compelling reason to purchase such a machine today, I wouldn't love to be able to run something other than macOS on it - preferably where the value of "something other than macOS" is OpenBSD. So I am definitely *not* saying that attempting to support such hardware in the nearish future is bad idea. In fact, I think it's tremendous. I wish those involved the best of luck. (Also, I envy those who have sufficient time to attempt such a thing, especially if it's just for nothing other than shits and giggles.) Ash
Re: OpenBSD as a NAS
Hi Ken, Thanks for your mail. Kenneth Gober writes: > I believe softraid is reliable enough, but I don't use it so I can't > say so from personal experience. I do use Samba and NFS though and > can report that those work acceptably well. Reading a large file via > Samba over a gigabit link runs at between 30MB/s and 110MB/s in > OpenBSD 6.8. This is a big improvement over older OpenBSD releases. That sort of performance is perfectly adequate for my needs. >> b) Would I be better off using the LSI RAID controller for the arrays? >> > > I do, but mostly because I want to use RAID10 which is not officially > supported in OpenBSD softraid. It's also nice to be able to take > advantage of the battery backed delayed write cache on my controller > (a Dell PERC H700 in my case). > > One thing you might find important is that using hardware RAID makes > it harder to closely monitor controller and disk status, since the > controller vendor provided software typically won't work on OpenBSD. > If your drive enclosure supports alert LEDs then keeping an eye on > those indicators may be the easiest way to monitor array health. That's a good point actually. I hadn't considered the software support. And my hardware is nothing fancy - so no LEDs. I definitely have more SATA devices to attach than ports on the motherboard, so I'll just install the cards in HBA mode. That should allow sensorsd to monitor the status, since its just a passthrough in that case, right? > c) Bearing in mind that the provisioning scheme I have in mind is to >> provision the disks in pairs (forming RAID1 arrays), thus resulting in >> 3-4 separate volumes (6-8 disks), is there any reason I should *not* use >> OpenBSD, and look more toward something like TrueNAS or FreeBSD? >> > > I suspect that the OpenBSD port of Samba will give you more challenges > than OpenBSD itself. I suggest setting up a small test server and verifying > client compatibility (including user authentication) before building the > full server. Yup, good idea. The last of the hardware arrived today so I'll build it out for some testing. I have had performance issues with OpenBSD's Samba server in the past...I didn't investigate since I only needed it temporarily...but I do fully expect that Samba will be the biggest PITA. Oh how I wish we didn't need it...
Re: OpenBSD as a NAS
On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 6:19 PM Ashton Fagg wrote: > a) Is softraid reliable enough to support my use-case? Does anyone have > anecdotes to encourage/discourage use of softraid for this application? > I believe softraid is reliable enough, but I don't use it so I can't say so from personal experience. I do use Samba and NFS though and can report that those work acceptably well. Reading a large file via Samba over a gigabit link runs at between 30MB/s and 110MB/s in OpenBSD 6.8. This is a big improvement over older OpenBSD releases. > b) Would I be better off using the LSI RAID controller for the arrays? > I do, but mostly because I want to use RAID10 which is not officially supported in OpenBSD softraid. It's also nice to be able to take advantage of the battery backed delayed write cache on my controller (a Dell PERC H700 in my case). One thing you might find important is that using hardware RAID makes it harder to closely monitor controller and disk status, since the controller vendor provided software typically won't work on OpenBSD. If your drive enclosure supports alert LEDs then keeping an eye on those indicators may be the easiest way to monitor array health. c) Bearing in mind that the provisioning scheme I have in mind is to > provision the disks in pairs (forming RAID1 arrays), thus resulting in > 3-4 separate volumes (6-8 disks), is there any reason I should *not* use > OpenBSD, and look more toward something like TrueNAS or FreeBSD? > I suspect that the OpenBSD port of Samba will give you more challenges than OpenBSD itself. I suggest setting up a small test server and verifying client compatibility (including user authentication) before building the full server. -ken
Re: Fwd: PayPal pool for developer M1 Mac mini for OpenBSD port
Clearly I missed Patriks Email ... earlier.. :/ sorry folks +1 if experienced Devs are working on it... it will happen Best of luck to the people working on getting it working ... cant be easy without all the docs ... Thanks On Thu, 3 Dec 2020 at 22:39, Tom Smyth wrote: > Hi Jeff, > > as far as Im aware... if you donate to the project they will source > hardware as the project sees fit.. > if there is an M1 in want.html (where a developer is looking for one to > make an initial POC before the project considers it viable to spend > resources... > it I would be happy to contribute... for that purpose .. > > I dont think anyone has anything specific against apple. per sya.. > there are objections to proprietary firmware... and binary blobs... > and this makes development of OpenSource Systems even harder than it > already is... > > but yes tthe M1 looks awesome it will be interesting to see if they open > it up (a little) ... but it is an arm chip ... so perhaps testing and > providing > open arm hardware would help the project more... check out want.html > > all of these are my own observations as a user over the years and im not > a developer in OpenBSD > > Thanks > Tom SMyth > > > > > > On Thu, 3 Dec 2020 at 22:11, Jeff Joshua Rollin > wrote: > >> >> >> >> Forwarded Message >> Subject:Fwd: PayPal pool for developer M1 Mac mini for OpenBSD >> port >> Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2020 21:56:51 + >> From: Jeff Joshua Rollin >> >> >> >> >> >> Oops, forgot to reply to the list. Sorry for the duplicate, Mihai. >> >> >> On 03/12/2020 01:18, Mihai Popescu wrote: >> > I have only good wishes for the project, but I still don't get one >> thing: >> > why do some people start to behave oddly whenever Apple comes into >> > discussion. >> > They are doing a proprietary thing, closed as hell, no documentation >> > and so >> > on. Why is this impulse to write code for such a thing. Just asking ... >> >> Apple make great products. My iMac, which is nearly ten years old, runs >> without problems even today (try that with Windows). iPads and iPhones >> have much better lifetimes than Android devices - we'll see if the >> increasing number of devices running "real Linux" make a dent in the >> market, but either way there are AFAIK no phones using any of the BSDs >> (unless you count macOS/iOS, which for these purposes I don't) anyway. >> >> Other than the fact that the platform is proprietary, the only other >> thing that annoys me about Macs, and always has, is their half-arsed >> attempt at a British keyboard, which unless it's changed since my iMac >> was manufactured still puts @ and " in the wrong places for Brits - >> exactly the opposite places on a US keyboard. (Even Commodore, infamous >> in its day for reliability problems and which bought the Amiga company >> in what no less august an institution than Amiga Format magazine called >> "a rare fit of insight," managed that one.) Fortunately, if you also use >> Linux/UNIX, the problem of switching between keyboards with @ and " in >> 'the wrong place' is easily solved for X11 by selecting a Mac UK >> keyboard in the software settings even on a PC. (They did stubbornly >> stick with that crap butterfly keyboard for four years, for reasons >> presumably best known to themselves, but luckily that era also seems to >> be over, and I didn't bother buying one during that time, for that and >> other reasons.) >> >> As for the proprietaryness, other than the fact that it's a nice new >> hardware architecture as other people have mentioned, pretty much every >> other architecture OpenBSD, NetBSD and Linux has ever run on (Amiga, Sun >> and VAX, for example) is/was proprietary. And that's without considering >> the closed peripherals (without which OpenBSD wouldn't have to eschew >> NDAs) or the BMC on a Wintel - heaven knows what that thing really gets >> up to. >> >> My £0.02 >> >> Jeff. >> >> > > -- > Kindest regards, > Tom Smyth. > -- Kindest regards, Tom Smyth.
Re: PayPal pool for developer M1 Mac mini for OpenBSD port
Thanks Patrik, Marcan, and Theo... Interesting project... OpenBSD on the M1 :) ... best of luck with it On Thu, 3 Dec 2020 at 22:11, Patrick Wildt wrote: > This really has shown how much interest there is in having OpenBSD > running on those machines. Still, we would all not be here without > the OpenBSD project itself. Not being able to host hackathons due to > COVID-19 leaves an impact, and I hope that soon(TM) we'll be able to > get back together to shut up and hack. > > I'm sure you all love using OpenBSD and hacking on OpenBSD as much as I > do, so to help OpenBSD run infrastructure, organize hackathons and to > flourish even more, please consider donating! > > https://www.openbsdfoundation.org/donations.html > https://www.openbsd.org/donations.html > > Also a shoutout to marcan, who'll be doing a lot of reverse engineering > on the M1. He's pretty good, and I'm supporting his project by being a > patron. I'm looking forward to his work, because of all the people out > there who can do it, he's definitely one of them. > > https://www.patreon.com/marcan > > Patrick > > Am Thu, Dec 03, 2020 at 02:33:34PM -0700 schrieb Ben Goren: > > Oh, wow — it hasn’t even been a full day since I sent this out...and > already enough of you have chipped in enough to buy not just a single M1 > system for Patrick, but also a second one for his partner in crime, Mark > Kettenis. > > > > Thank you to all! This show of generosity and support and excitement is > most welcome. (And, frankly, a bit overwhelming.) > > > > If anybody reading this still wishes to donate to the cause, despite the > immediate needs being met, the money will be put to good use. There are > other developers who will eventually need their own hardware, and there are > always other sorts of expenses related to development. Feel free to chip in > at Patrick’s original link: > > > > https://www.paypal.com/pools/c/8uPSkfNJMp > > > > ...or, of course, to the OpenBSD general fund (which can *ALWAYS* use > donations): > > > > https://www.openbsd.org/donations.html > > > > Thanks again, everybody! > > > > b& > > > > > On Dec 2, 2020, at 2:59 PM, Ben Goren wrote: > > > Greetings, all! > > > > > > Patrick Wildt has set up a PayPal pool to raise funds to purchase an > M1 Mac mini so he can start porting OpenBSD to the platform. If you’d like > to be able to run OpenBSD on an M1 system, now would be a great time to > throw some pennies his way. > > > > > > The donation link: https://paypal.me/pools/c/8uPSkfNJMp > > > > > > Read below for an idea of what one might expect if we can get a > machine into Patrick’s hands. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > b& > > > > > > Patrick wrote: > > > > > >> Yes, kettenis@ and me are the two ones doing the major work on > porting > > >> to new devices. Not sure if kettenis@ is interested, but I can ask > him. > > >> I definitely am, a Mac Mini as a dedicated machine to do stuff with > and > > >> not care about what is installed would really help. > > >> > > >> Marcan has started a crowdfunding on Patreon. He's a really capable > > >> person, and he'll definitely lay a lot of groundwork needed for > porting > > >> OpenBSD to the platform. He apparenetly will also do his work in a > > >> dual-licensed fashion, so the BSDs will easily profit from it. > > >> > > >> So, the first steps are basically to follow Marcan's work and use all > > >> that information and code to port OpenBSD as well. > > >> > > >> This *will* take some time, because essentially there are only the > > >> binary drivers, but it's doable and I think with a bit of patience > > >> we will have OpenBSD running on the M1 as well. > > >> > > >> Biggest hurdle, as always, will be support for graphics acceleration. > > -- Kindest regards, Tom Smyth.
Re: Fwd: PayPal pool for developer M1 Mac mini for OpenBSD port
Hi Jeff, as far as Im aware... if you donate to the project they will source hardware as the project sees fit.. if there is an M1 in want.html (where a developer is looking for one to make an initial POC before the project considers it viable to spend resources... it I would be happy to contribute... for that purpose .. I dont think anyone has anything specific against apple. per sya.. there are objections to proprietary firmware... and binary blobs... and this makes development of OpenSource Systems even harder than it already is... but yes tthe M1 looks awesome it will be interesting to see if they open it up (a little) ... but it is an arm chip ... so perhaps testing and providing open arm hardware would help the project more... check out want.html all of these are my own observations as a user over the years and im not a developer in OpenBSD Thanks Tom SMyth On Thu, 3 Dec 2020 at 22:11, Jeff Joshua Rollin wrote: > > > > Forwarded Message > Subject:Fwd: PayPal pool for developer M1 Mac mini for OpenBSD port > Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2020 21:56:51 + > From: Jeff Joshua Rollin > > > > > > Oops, forgot to reply to the list. Sorry for the duplicate, Mihai. > > > On 03/12/2020 01:18, Mihai Popescu wrote: > > I have only good wishes for the project, but I still don't get one thing: > > why do some people start to behave oddly whenever Apple comes into > > discussion. > > They are doing a proprietary thing, closed as hell, no documentation > > and so > > on. Why is this impulse to write code for such a thing. Just asking ... > > Apple make great products. My iMac, which is nearly ten years old, runs > without problems even today (try that with Windows). iPads and iPhones > have much better lifetimes than Android devices - we'll see if the > increasing number of devices running "real Linux" make a dent in the > market, but either way there are AFAIK no phones using any of the BSDs > (unless you count macOS/iOS, which for these purposes I don't) anyway. > > Other than the fact that the platform is proprietary, the only other > thing that annoys me about Macs, and always has, is their half-arsed > attempt at a British keyboard, which unless it's changed since my iMac > was manufactured still puts @ and " in the wrong places for Brits - > exactly the opposite places on a US keyboard. (Even Commodore, infamous > in its day for reliability problems and which bought the Amiga company > in what no less august an institution than Amiga Format magazine called > "a rare fit of insight," managed that one.) Fortunately, if you also use > Linux/UNIX, the problem of switching between keyboards with @ and " in > 'the wrong place' is easily solved for X11 by selecting a Mac UK > keyboard in the software settings even on a PC. (They did stubbornly > stick with that crap butterfly keyboard for four years, for reasons > presumably best known to themselves, but luckily that era also seems to > be over, and I didn't bother buying one during that time, for that and > other reasons.) > > As for the proprietaryness, other than the fact that it's a nice new > hardware architecture as other people have mentioned, pretty much every > other architecture OpenBSD, NetBSD and Linux has ever run on (Amiga, Sun > and VAX, for example) is/was proprietary. And that's without considering > the closed peripherals (without which OpenBSD wouldn't have to eschew > NDAs) or the BMC on a Wintel - heaven knows what that thing really gets > up to. > > My £0.02 > > Jeff. > > -- Kindest regards, Tom Smyth.
Re: PayPal pool for developer M1 Mac mini for OpenBSD port
This really has shown how much interest there is in having OpenBSD running on those machines. Still, we would all not be here without the OpenBSD project itself. Not being able to host hackathons due to COVID-19 leaves an impact, and I hope that soon(TM) we'll be able to get back together to shut up and hack. I'm sure you all love using OpenBSD and hacking on OpenBSD as much as I do, so to help OpenBSD run infrastructure, organize hackathons and to flourish even more, please consider donating! https://www.openbsdfoundation.org/donations.html https://www.openbsd.org/donations.html Also a shoutout to marcan, who'll be doing a lot of reverse engineering on the M1. He's pretty good, and I'm supporting his project by being a patron. I'm looking forward to his work, because of all the people out there who can do it, he's definitely one of them. https://www.patreon.com/marcan Patrick Am Thu, Dec 03, 2020 at 02:33:34PM -0700 schrieb Ben Goren: > Oh, wow — it hasn’t even been a full day since I sent this out...and already > enough of you have chipped in enough to buy not just a single M1 system for > Patrick, but also a second one for his partner in crime, Mark Kettenis. > > Thank you to all! This show of generosity and support and excitement is most > welcome. (And, frankly, a bit overwhelming.) > > If anybody reading this still wishes to donate to the cause, despite the > immediate needs being met, the money will be put to good use. There are other > developers who will eventually need their own hardware, and there are always > other sorts of expenses related to development. Feel free to chip in at > Patrick’s original link: > > https://www.paypal.com/pools/c/8uPSkfNJMp > > ...or, of course, to the OpenBSD general fund (which can *ALWAYS* use > donations): > > https://www.openbsd.org/donations.html > > Thanks again, everybody! > > b& > > > On Dec 2, 2020, at 2:59 PM, Ben Goren wrote: > > Greetings, all! > > > > Patrick Wildt has set up a PayPal pool to raise funds to purchase an M1 Mac > > mini so he can start porting OpenBSD to the platform. If you’d like to be > > able to run OpenBSD on an M1 system, now would be a great time to throw > > some pennies his way. > > > > The donation link: https://paypal.me/pools/c/8uPSkfNJMp > > > > Read below for an idea of what one might expect if we can get a machine > > into Patrick’s hands. > > > > Cheers, > > > > b& > > > > Patrick wrote: > > > >> Yes, kettenis@ and me are the two ones doing the major work on porting > >> to new devices. Not sure if kettenis@ is interested, but I can ask him. > >> I definitely am, a Mac Mini as a dedicated machine to do stuff with and > >> not care about what is installed would really help. > >> > >> Marcan has started a crowdfunding on Patreon. He's a really capable > >> person, and he'll definitely lay a lot of groundwork needed for porting > >> OpenBSD to the platform. He apparenetly will also do his work in a > >> dual-licensed fashion, so the BSDs will easily profit from it. > >> > >> So, the first steps are basically to follow Marcan's work and use all > >> that information and code to port OpenBSD as well. > >> > >> This *will* take some time, because essentially there are only the > >> binary drivers, but it's doable and I think with a bit of patience > >> we will have OpenBSD running on the M1 as well. > >> > >> Biggest hurdle, as always, will be support for graphics acceleration.
Fwd: Fwd: PayPal pool for developer M1 Mac mini for OpenBSD port
Forwarded Message Subject:Fwd: PayPal pool for developer M1 Mac mini for OpenBSD port Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2020 21:56:51 + From: Jeff Joshua Rollin Oops, forgot to reply to the list. Sorry for the duplicate, Mihai. On 03/12/2020 01:18, Mihai Popescu wrote: I have only good wishes for the project, but I still don't get one thing: why do some people start to behave oddly whenever Apple comes into discussion. They are doing a proprietary thing, closed as hell, no documentation and so on. Why is this impulse to write code for such a thing. Just asking ... Apple make great products. My iMac, which is nearly ten years old, runs without problems even today (try that with Windows). iPads and iPhones have much better lifetimes than Android devices - we'll see if the increasing number of devices running "real Linux" make a dent in the market, but either way there are AFAIK no phones using any of the BSDs (unless you count macOS/iOS, which for these purposes I don't) anyway. Other than the fact that the platform is proprietary, the only other thing that annoys me about Macs, and always has, is their half-arsed attempt at a British keyboard, which unless it's changed since my iMac was manufactured still puts @ and " in the wrong places for Brits - exactly the opposite places on a US keyboard. (Even Commodore, infamous in its day for reliability problems and which bought the Amiga company in what no less august an institution than Amiga Format magazine called "a rare fit of insight," managed that one.) Fortunately, if you also use Linux/UNIX, the problem of switching between keyboards with @ and " in 'the wrong place' is easily solved for X11 by selecting a Mac UK keyboard in the software settings even on a PC. (They did stubbornly stick with that crap butterfly keyboard for four years, for reasons presumably best known to themselves, but luckily that era also seems to be over, and I didn't bother buying one during that time, for that and other reasons.) As for the proprietaryness, other than the fact that it's a nice new hardware architecture as other people have mentioned, pretty much every other architecture OpenBSD, NetBSD and Linux has ever run on (Amiga, Sun and VAX, for example) is/was proprietary. And that's without considering the closed peripherals (without which OpenBSD wouldn't have to eschew NDAs) or the BMC on a Wintel - heaven knows what that thing really gets up to. My £0.02 Jeff.
Re: CIDR vs aliases with ifconfig/hostname.if
On 03/12/2020 13:20, Steve Fairhead wrote: There's also this, which I wrote to help a student (my daughter) understand netmasks and CIDR notation: http://www.fivetrees.com/netmasks/netmasks.php It's kinda fun to watch the bit patterns move around... I can see from my logs that this has proven popular today. It was written as a bit of fun; it it's actually useful, please let me know if it's missing something, could use a new feature, or if you figure it's just plain wrong ;) . Also: for me, CIDR is the only sane way to describe netmasks. There are 4,294,967,296 possible values for an IPV4 netmask, but just 33 (or fewer, depending on your level of pedantry) of these are valid. Steve -- -- Steve Fairhead fivetrees ltd - for the complete music service www: http://www.fivetrees.com --
Re: PayPal pool for developer M1 Mac mini for OpenBSD port
Oh, wow — it hasn’t even been a full day since I sent this out...and already enough of you have chipped in enough to buy not just a single M1 system for Patrick, but also a second one for his partner in crime, Mark Kettenis. Thank you to all! This show of generosity and support and excitement is most welcome. (And, frankly, a bit overwhelming.) If anybody reading this still wishes to donate to the cause, despite the immediate needs being met, the money will be put to good use. There are other developers who will eventually need their own hardware, and there are always other sorts of expenses related to development. Feel free to chip in at Patrick’s original link: https://www.paypal.com/pools/c/8uPSkfNJMp ...or, of course, to the OpenBSD general fund (which can *ALWAYS* use donations): https://www.openbsd.org/donations.html Thanks again, everybody! b& > On Dec 2, 2020, at 2:59 PM, Ben Goren wrote: > Greetings, all! > > Patrick Wildt has set up a PayPal pool to raise funds to purchase an M1 Mac > mini so he can start porting OpenBSD to the platform. If you’d like to be > able to run OpenBSD on an M1 system, now would be a great time to throw some > pennies his way. > > The donation link: https://paypal.me/pools/c/8uPSkfNJMp > > Read below for an idea of what one might expect if we can get a machine into > Patrick’s hands. > > Cheers, > > b& > > Patrick wrote: > >> Yes, kettenis@ and me are the two ones doing the major work on porting >> to new devices. Not sure if kettenis@ is interested, but I can ask him. >> I definitely am, a Mac Mini as a dedicated machine to do stuff with and >> not care about what is installed would really help. >> >> Marcan has started a crowdfunding on Patreon. He's a really capable >> person, and he'll definitely lay a lot of groundwork needed for porting >> OpenBSD to the platform. He apparenetly will also do his work in a >> dual-licensed fashion, so the BSDs will easily profit from it. >> >> So, the first steps are basically to follow Marcan's work and use all >> that information and code to port OpenBSD as well. >> >> This *will* take some time, because essentially there are only the >> binary drivers, but it's doable and I think with a bit of patience >> we will have OpenBSD running on the M1 as well. >> >> Biggest hurdle, as always, will be support for graphics acceleration.
Re: PayPal pool for developer M1 Mac mini for OpenBSD port
Op do 3 dec. 2020 om 11:28 schreef Stuart Henderson : > > On 2020-12-03, Janne Johansson wrote: > > Den tors 3 dec. 2020 kl 02:21 skrev Mihai Popescu : > > > >> I have only good wishes for the project, but I still don't get one thing: > >> why do some people start to behave oddly whenever Apple comes into > >> discussion. > >> > > > > It could also be that if it becomes operable, it is quite a useful machine, > > whereas sticking to Pine64 experiment boards and FruityPi clones does quite > > limit the usefulness even if they are all aarch64s. > > That, plus it's a challenge. Some people do sudoku or cryptic crosswords, > some play musical instruments, some port OS to new hardware. And some do > several of the above (and more). We as community could help to make that possible, I'm wondering how many machines would be needed to make it work. -- “We spend the first twelve months of our children's lives teaching them to walk and talk and the next twelve telling them to sit down and shut up.”
Re: CIDR vs aliases with ifconfig/hostname.if
Mike Coddington writes: > There was a useful tool that someone posted on misc a while back called > netcalc. I think this is its website: > https://jamsek.dev/posts/2019/Sep/21/ipv4-and-ipv6-cidr-subnet-calculator/ > Check it out if you want to get a better grasp on CIDR notation. There's also this, which I wrote to help a student (my daughter) understand netmasks and CIDR notation: http://www.fivetrees.com/netmasks/netmasks.php It's kinda fun to watch the bit patterns move around... Steve -- -- Steve Fairhead fivetrees ltd - for the complete music service www: http://www.fivetrees.com --
Re: Bridging multiple WAN via VLAN
On 2020-12-02 09:52:53, Stuart Henderson wrote: > On 2020-12-01, michal.lyszc...@bofc.pl wrote: > > Is it possible? Or am I imaging things and it's better to do it with > > dhcp/pf routing? If it's possible to do with vlans on layer2, then > > what am I suppose to look for? I can read man pages, but honestly > > I don't really know how to approach that problem, so some keywords, > > programs, rfcs would be nice to have:) > > If they were wired ethernet interfaces then you could do this directly > with bridge. But bridge needs an ethernet-type layer 2 interface. > > The LTE devices are a layer 3 type interface so this would need to be > routed (and usually also natted, unless you have a fancy provider that > can route a block of addresses to it). Yeah.. I didn't think about that. > With wifi, an AP often works by bridging to ethernet and that is OK, > but when connecting a wired device behind a wireless client there are > problems. The standard frame format has source/destination/AP MAC > addresses, but for "client bridge" to work it needs a fourth so it > can pass on the MAC address of the wired client. APs that support > WDS mode can cope with this, but OpenBSD doesn't have support for > this, either in client or in AP mode. > > So normally you'll need to use routing and possibly NAT to have > OpenBSD connect a wired client to a wifi interface. You made me realize that forcing it do be done on layer2 is way more complicated and hacky than simple NAT with redirect all, to specific vlan. NAT is simpler, more clean, and I probably will still be able to perform good packet queueing and redundancy on main router. RPI4 should have enough power to forward two networks that will probably never get faster than 20Mbps each. Thanks for explanation and opening my eyes:) -- .-.---.-.--. | Michal Lyszczek | Embedded C, Linux | Company Address | .-. open source | | +48 727 564 419 | Software Engineer | Leszczynskiego 4/29 | oo| supporter | | https://bofc.pl `.--: 50-078 Wroclaw, Pol | /`'\ & | | GPG FF1EBFE7E3A974B1 | Bits of Code | NIP: 813 349 58 78 |(\_;/) programer | `--^--^-^--' signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: PayPal pool for developer M1 Mac mini for OpenBSD port
All right, let me do it. god damn. Caipenghui 于 2020年12月3日 GMT+08:00 下午6:26:24, Stuart Henderson 写到: >On 2020-12-03, Janne Johansson wrote: >> Den tors 3 dec. 2020 kl 02:21 skrev Mihai Popescu : >> >>> I have only good wishes for the project, but I still don't get one >thing: >>> why do some people start to behave oddly whenever Apple comes into >>> discussion. >>> >> >> It could also be that if it becomes operable, it is quite a useful >machine, >> whereas sticking to Pine64 experiment boards and FruityPi clones does >quite >> limit the usefulness even if they are all aarch64s. > >That, plus it's a challenge. Some people do sudoku or cryptic >crosswords, >some play musical instruments, some port OS to new hardware. And some >do >several of the above (and more).
Re: PayPal pool for developer M1 Mac mini for OpenBSD port
On 2020-12-03, Janne Johansson wrote: > Den tors 3 dec. 2020 kl 02:21 skrev Mihai Popescu : > >> I have only good wishes for the project, but I still don't get one thing: >> why do some people start to behave oddly whenever Apple comes into >> discussion. >> > > It could also be that if it becomes operable, it is quite a useful machine, > whereas sticking to Pine64 experiment boards and FruityPi clones does quite > limit the usefulness even if they are all aarch64s. That, plus it's a challenge. Some people do sudoku or cryptic crosswords, some play musical instruments, some port OS to new hardware. And some do several of the above (and more).
Re: CIDR vs aliases with ifconfig/hostname.if
Chris Bennett writes: > So, what happens with 104.149.1.112? Does anybody get to actually use > it? Or is it just a placeholder? Here is my understanding. View the address 104.149.1.112 in binary format: 01101000.10010101.0001.0111 The /28 netmask is: ... So in this case the "host" part is the last four bits. That gives you 16 addresses possible. When the host bits are all zero, that is the network address. It's the "network" without any specific host. It's used in routing tables (maybe other things?). When the host bits are all ones, that's the broadast address. It refers to all hosts on the network. Hosts can use any address between these two. So the /28 network has 14 hosts. The first or last host address is typically the gateway but as far as I know that's just convention. Allan
Re: PayPal pool for developer M1 Mac mini for OpenBSD port
Den tors 3 dec. 2020 kl 02:21 skrev Mihai Popescu : > I have only good wishes for the project, but I still don't get one thing: > why do some people start to behave oddly whenever Apple comes into > discussion. > It could also be that if it becomes operable, it is quite a useful machine, whereas sticking to Pine64 experiment boards and FruityPi clones does quite limit the usefulness even if they are all aarch64s. -- May the most significant bit of your life be positive.
