Re: UNIX A to Z List RFC
On Mon, Feb 04, 2013 at 10:27:42AM +, James Griffin wrote: I think vi(1) - not vim - would be a great tool for him to learn. A real hardcore UNIX editor, ed(1)
Re: userdel -p option - FAQ/man page issue?
On Thu, Sep 15, 2011 at 12:05:55PM +0200, Tomas Bodzar wrote: On Thu, Sep 15, 2011 at 11:57 AM, Tomas Bodzar tomas.bod...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Sep 15, 2011 at 11:28 AM, Richard Toohey richardtoo...@paradise.net.nz wrote: That last sentence - sounds exactly like what I need - so I try it: # userdel -p testuser usage: userdel -D [-p preserve-value] B B B userdel [-prv] user I'm on current. Anyway strange that -v switch doesn't provide verbose output in fact and that information in password file was not preserved in fact. User disappeared somewhere, but where :-) Files are in place as you can see. $ sudo rm -rf /home/test/ $ userdel -D preservefalse $ userdel -p true usage: userdel -D [-p preserve-value] userdel [-prv] user This should be 'userdel -D -p true' according to userdel(8). 'userdel -p true user' also works if preserve has not been set to true (one way or another), which is perhaps not obvious from the syopsis.
Re: Removing secondary groups with usermod -G
On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 01:18:41PM -0500, Chris Bennett wrote: OpenBSD's form of sed requires you to output to a new file and mv that back to original. .. or one could use ed, or perl, to change a file in place. -wb
Re: add new disk
On Tue, Dec 21, 2010 at 02:59:12PM +0100, roberth wrote: On Tue, 21 Dec 2010 08:25:35 -0600 Orestes Leal R. l...@cubacatering.avianet.cu wrote: Otto, this is not 4.8 it's 4.3, so this is a error now and not a warning, what I must changte in the comnand line to make it work with 4.8? *sigh* you have been told what is wrong before, but lets end this. newfs /dev/sd1a was wrong but was handled gracefully. and it is still wrong but now it bombs out. newfs works on raw devices. raw devices start with 'r'. the right command simply is newfs /dev/rsd1a. Or just newfs sd1a which is also in the man page, and in Section 14.4 of the FAQ.
Re: matching escape string , doesn't work ?
On Mon, Jul 05, 2010 at 12:42:51PM +0200, Bret S. Lambert wrote:
On Mon, Jul 05, 2010 at 06:35:01PM +0800, Aaron Lewis wrote:
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
Hi,
echo %A3 | sed 's/(%[0-9A-Z]{2})//g'
I'd like %A3 like string to be removed , what's wrong with my script ?
According to the sed manpage, it doesn't use {} in this way; you seem
to be using the wrong syntax (although sed veterans can likely give a
more thorough answer).
try sed 's/%[0-9A-Z][0-9A-Z]//g'(minus any typos/thinkos on my part)
sed(1) uses basic regular expressions (see re_format(7) for
details). In particular, you should prepend with a backslash
the parentheses and braces in the original example, although
the parentheses are superfluous for the stated purpose. If
you want to use bounds, then
echo %A3 | sed 's/%[0-9A-Z]\{2\}//g'
will do.
Re: Installer bug? - Upgrade 4.6 to 4.7 failed to upgrade base47, on i386 and amd64
Perhaps every section of the FAQ begin with an exhortation to read the entire FAQ. I am flabbergasted that someone who runs a 'production' box would put themeselves in this position.
Re: whiteboard over the net
On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 03:15:42PM -0500, Marco Peereboom wrote: Drawing shit with the mouse. Not typing stuff with the keybored. Recently I saw a British geometer (currently in Norway) saying (on the categories mailing list) that he was quite happy with Jarnal. http://www.dklevine.com/general/software/tc1000/jarnal.htm Apparently it has bells and whistles such as collaboration, inserting images, recording and playing back pen strokes, handwriting (printing) recognition, etc. It is written in Java. I have never tried it. One of the authors has this to say about it: Jarnal is a breakthrough in computer software, comprising thousand of lines of code, and developed at enormous expense of labor and frustration. It enables you to provide your $2500 Tablet PC with the same functionality achieved by a pad of paper and a pencil costing at least several dollars. -wb
Re: can a user override etc/mail.rc ignore directive
On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 05:43:13PM -0400, Douglas Maus wrote: When using mail, some header fields are not shown based on /etc/mail.rc: ignore headers (system) and ~/.mailrc: ignore headers (user) Even if a user removes the 'ignore' lines from his/her ~/.mailrc the system /etc/mail.rc 'ignore' lines still are in effect. I know a user can 'Type' (with capital T) to show all headers, but is there an easy way for a user to remove all the system ignored headers? (That is, clear the ignore header list) Look for the retain command under SUMMARY in mail(1). That should enable you to do what you want. -wb
Re: obsd as domU?
On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 08:31:14AM +0200, Ciprian Dorin, Craciun wrote: Sorry, but you guys from OpenBSD have proved that you can trust the skills of **some** developers viz., precisely those developers that are telling you to not trust the virtualization hype/crap. So, why not trust those developers? .. we have trust in you, but why don't you have the disposition to trust in others?) These developers have _earned_ (through careful hard work and meticulously accurate documentation) the trust accorded them. With respect to the others, this remains to be seen (and current indications are not promising).
Re: OT: Python (was Re: vi in /bin)
On Sat, Dec 19, 2009 at 06:00:14PM -0600, Marco Peereboom wrote: ... Really? then why do you use scrotwm? Because it kicks the balls out of every other wm.
Re: Open Source hardware (Re: can't get vesa @ 1280x800 or nv)
On Sun, Dec 06, 2009 at 11:11:07AM +0200, Soner Tari wrote: On Sat, 2009-12-05 at 17:08 -0500, Ted Unangst wrote: On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 4:09 PM, Soner Tari so...@comixwall.org wrote: On Sat, 2009-12-05 at 21:30 +0100, Matthieu Herrb wrote: Making hardware is a lot more difficult than writing software. So it takes more resources and more skills. Sorry Matthieu, but I have to say that this is utter bullshit, and I believe such underestimation is the underlying reason that many software suck. I think the point is the tools to make software are more readily available than the tools to make hardware. Let's say so you want to make a graphics card. Let's also say that you're only interested in playing quake3. What does it take to party like 1999? About 150 MHz on a 180nm process. And what does it cost to fab some 180nm chips? More than I've ever spent on all the computers I've ever written software with. To read his comments with such meaning, I would have to replace the words difficult and skills in his sentences with others. Since your reply implicitly replaced making with designing, that shouldn't prove to much of a stretch.
Re: Open Source hardware (Re: can't get vesa @ 1280x800 or nv)
On Sun, Dec 06, 2009 at 06:43:01PM +0200, Soner Tari wrote: On Sun, 2009-12-06 at 10:16 -0500, William Boshuck wrote: Since your reply implicitly replaced making with designing, that shouldn't prove to much of a stretch. My reply explicitly emphasizes the difficulty in designing software, which is part of writing it. Otherwise, I mention I am against comparing making hardware with writing software (i.e. comparing apples with oranges). All kinds of people are against all kinds of valid activities. So what? This is completely OT now anyway. It went off-topic with your first message.
Re: can't get vesa @ 1280x800 or nv
On Sat, Nov 28, 2009 at 01:33:22PM -0200, Rodrigo Amorim Bahiense wrote: I'm not a nvidia fanboy, but I've found the need to clarify what nvidia actually does for open source community. You mean, what nvidia does to close parts of unprincipled projects that like to call themselves 'open source'.
Re: less minor install issue
On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 03:34:45AM -0400, Daniel Malament wrote: On 10/22/2009 2:41 AM, Theo de Raadt wrote: There used to be a message before the install script wiped out filesystems with newfs, listing the partitions and asking if you were sure. Was this removed, or did I somehow miss something? And WHY??? Because it is the install script. What did you think it was going to do. It's installing. It's job is to wipe disks. There is no need for stupid questions. Ah, the sarcasm I was expecting. And here I thought I remembered the new installer being described as easier to use. It is. Were it not so quick it would be positively boring. Just don't set mount points for the partitions you don't want touched. If you are worried, dump said partitions in the unlikely event (e.g., you mess up) that you need to restore them (something you should do in any case). -wb
Re: thanks for 4.6!
On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 09:54:20PM -0400, Nick Holland wrote: William Boshuck wrote: The man page is typically excellent, so you can learn au besoin on the fly. May I also suggest the FAQ article written by tmux author Nicholas Marriott? http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq7.html#tmux A really great page. Thanks.
Re: thanks for 4.6!
On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 07:22:27AM +0200, Matthias Kilian wrote: On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 10:00:28PM -0700, patrick keshishian wrote: Funny, I always disliked CTRL-A being taken by screen, since it was so handy to go back to the beginning of the command line in ksh. But then, I make a lot of typing errors at the beginning of command lines, I guess. :) I agree. C-a always annoyed me in screen for the same reason as you bring up: positioning to the beginning of the shell command. C-b is almost as annoying in vi when i want to page up ;) ... Some people should really give vi-mode in ksh a try ;-) Yes, and then ` makes a nice prefix on a sun keyboard (mirror image of Esc and easy to slap twice).
Re: thanks for 4.6!
On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 01:45:41PM -0400, John Cosimano wrote: --- Brad Tilley [Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 01:16:23PM -0400]: --- de-installed screen(1) and will start using tmux(1), as it's in base. thanks for the effort of doing that---screen was always among the very first packages i installed on a virgin system. Same here. For the tmux newbies rather than the Ctrl+A keys use Ctrl+B otherwise, the syntax of tmux is very similar to screen. Nice to have it in the base OS. i seem to remember a thread here on misc@ that was meant to be a tmux guide for experienced screen users. haven't dug that up yet, as i'm not sure if i'm better off starting anew I'd recommend starting anew. tmux works differently from screen in ways you can use to your advantage, it's been better than screen for a while, and it is always improving. The man page is typically excellent, so you can learn au besoin on the fly. -wb
Re: 4.6 arriving
Is setting a password on the new package hierarchy and including the password with the CD feasible or desired? This kind of thread makes me want to chew my teeth.
Re: 4.6 arriving
On Sat, Oct 03, 2009 at 01:26:56PM -0400, Rod Dorman wrote: On Saturday, October 3, 2009, 02:13:51, Theo de Raadt wrote: Have you thought this through, at all? Nope, not at all. You might find the list rather unreceptive to the whistling that results when you unplug both ears. It was just an idea tossed out Without a moment's reflection, and with nothing but a 'me me me me me' attitude aimed at nothing but trying to screw ever and ever more out of generous volunteers. This just gives users a bad name.
Re: Presentation tool
On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 09:47:27PM -0400, STeve Andre' wrote: On Monday 24 August 2009 19:58:40 Mr Man wrote: Hi, I have a presentation coming up, and I would like to use my OpenBSD laptop for it. What is the recommended application for a slides driven presentation? Thanks Magicpoint, in packages. LaTeX's beamer class is another option (especially if there is much mathematics in the talk). -wb
Re: screen, ksh with .profile loaded
On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 10:51:16PM +0800, Jennifer Ma wrote: hi all, i am new to openbsd and screen and ksh ... my question is how to use screen(from package) to load ksh with $HOME/.profile loaded(like a full login shell), so my alias can work again. You can use 'ksh -l' or -/bin/ksh (and if you want this by default when you run screen, put the line shell -/bin/ksh in $HOME/.screenrc). If you want your personalizations available more generally, then you may want to put them in, e.g., $HOME/.kshrc and then put the line export ENV=$HOME/.kshrc in $HOME/.profile. But if you are really new to screen and you plan on giving OpenBSD a go, you might want to get familiar with tmux (http://tmux.sourceforge.net/) instead of screen. It's available as a package and it is in base in snapshots now, so it looks like it will be in base in the next release. cheers, -wb
Re: Edit files on the installer shell?
On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 11:16:25AM +0200, Otto Moerbeek wrote: On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 07:03:27PM +1000, Sunnz wrote: I am wondering if I wanted to edit something before the installation then what can I use to edit files? I was told that vi is almost always available on any Unix system, does OpenBSD uses something even more basic than that in its installer? ed(1) is available. And sed(1) as well. ed(1) is in /bin, but sed(1) is in /usr/bin; so you wouldn't always have sed handy, right?
Re: Edit files on the installer shell?
On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 03:43:43PM +0200, Otto Moerbeek wrote: On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 08:49:45AM -0400, William Boshuck wrote: On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 11:16:25AM +0200, Otto Moerbeek wrote: On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 07:03:27PM +1000, Sunnz wrote: I am wondering if I wanted to edit something before the installation then what can I use to edit files? I was told that vi is almost always available on any Unix system, does OpenBSD uses something even more basic than that in its installer? ed(1) is available. And sed(1) as well. ed(1) is in /bin, but sed(1) is in /usr/bin; so you wouldn't always have sed handy, right? sed is on the install media, that was the question. Yes. Sorry. -wb
Re: Missing security announcements
On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 10:23:56AM -0800, new_guy wrote: Martin SchrC6der wrote: Why do you maintain stable by issuing security patches for it if you don't care if anybody installs them (by not telling them about the patches through one of the designated channels)? Don't you want people installing them? Is it so hard to write a mail to the list once every few months? The content is already there... I just check the errata web page every now and then. When/if anything huge is discovered (very seldom) then it's slashdotted or something. So in the end, I always seem to find out somehow. If someone is following stable, and really cares about keeping their system(s) up to date, I can't imagine why they wouldn't take the few seconds per day required to glance at the errata page. I mean, if you're reading Slashdot, The Guardian, Al-Jazeera, The Onion, or what-have-you, on a regular basis, why not just toss the errata page into the mix? For Christ's sake, the errata are listed in reverse chronological order so you don't even have to hit the space bar to see what's new. Do they have to toss in a soother as well? Not to mention that checking the errata page daily only underlines the extent to which these people---who give away for free a complete operating system---are really on top of the game. cheers, -wb
Re: Missing security announcements
On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 11:21:22AM +0100, Toni Mueller wrote: Hi, On Thu, 13.11.2008 at 08:55:04 -0500, Ted Unangst [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So get on the developer's case when they don't send out notifications. All this chatter now isn't going to change anything when the next errata comes out. You want security announcement? Do something to make it happen! how do you suggest that Joe Random User can change the way you developer folks work, Ted already made a suggestion about this. It's in the archives. -wb
Re: Oddly high load average
On Fri, Nov 07, 2008 at 10:09:08PM -0700, Theo de Raadt wrote: You're right Theo, but isn't better an answer like: RTFC ? Just 4 char. There is no point in telling people who can't read the code, to go read the code. It won't change a thing. They really will keep coming back to misc showing their false expectations. If he reads _learn_ the code as stare blankly at the code for fifteen minutes and then ask another question, then I've done the list a disservice. But I don't think it's ridiculous to emphasize that OpenBSD is a rational and well documented system that can be learned gradually by someone who is willing to take the time. Maybe you're right that it won't sink in, though.
Re: Oddly high load average
On Fri, Nov 07, 2008 at 02:05:19PM -0500, Damian Gerow wrote: I would assume you're referring to uvm_loadav in uvm_meter.c? That's where I'm looking. I was hoping for a little English to help me with my understanding, but maybe I'm just not clever enough. Likely this is not the real problem. If you don't know the algorithms used to calculate load averages, then you don't have a good reason to expect them to be different from what you see. (It was different on Linux is not a good reason; when you performed the installation you must have noticed that you were not installing Linux. Some vague expectations about how you think load averages are, or ought to be, calculated do not add up to a good reason either.) If this is something that you really want to understand then the thing to do is learn the code that calculates the load averages. Since there is nothing wrong with your system, then there is no rush, and you have the time to do that carefully (even if it takes months or longer - you can learn it a little at a time). The only thing stopping you is impatience; another side of the real problem. cheers, -wb
Re: OpenBSD 4.4 - fdisk issue
On Wed, Nov 05, 2008 at 09:57:31AM +0100, Otto Moerbeek wrote: On Tue, Nov 04, 2008 at 01:03:37PM -0500, William Boshuck wrote: Sorry, this does seem ok in 4.3. (An example in the FAQ uses a relative path, and that's what I've always done.) It only seems ok in 4.3 *if you ignore the warning from newfs*. I repeat: running newfs on a block device is not good. Use the raw device. 4.4 enforces that, but if you are running newfs on an older system, this holds too. Ok, thanks, and sorry if I seem to have suggested otherwise. The man page says that if I use a relative path then newfs will do the right thing (use the corresponding raw device), and that's the form of the command in Section 14.3 of the FAQ. What I read in the FAQ (and in the EXAMPLES sections of man pages) I am inclined to take as recommended usage. Is that the case here, too? cheers, (and thanks for the background info) -wb
Re: OpenBSD 4.4 - fdisk issue
On Tue, Nov 04, 2008 at 05:39:46PM +0100, Christophe Rioux wrote: On Tue, Nov 04, 2008 at 04:31:57PM +0100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I just try to install OpenBSD 4.4 on a serveur (HP DL120 G5) to test the functionality of the raid (seens it works again .). I configure the first disk without any issue, and then try following commands: disklabel wd0 disklabel.wd1 fdisk -i wd1 disklabel -R -r wd1 disklabel.wd1 newfs /dev/wd1a Error: newfs: /dev/wd1a: block device Second section of the newfs(8) manpage. Great ... This worked in 4.3 without any thing else; Likely not just as typed above. What should I search for ? The second paragraph under DESCRIPTION in http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/man.cgi?query=newfs seems pretty clear, and pretty clearly relevant. cheers, -wb
Re: OpenBSD 4.4 - fdisk issue
On Tue, Nov 04, 2008 at 12:59:29PM -0500, William Boshuck wrote: On Tue, Nov 04, 2008 at 05:39:46PM +0100, Christophe Rioux wrote: On Tue, Nov 04, 2008 at 04:31:57PM +0100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I just try to install OpenBSD 4.4 on a serveur (HP DL120 G5) to test the functionality of the raid (seens it works again .). I configure the first disk without any issue, and then try following commands: disklabel wd0 disklabel.wd1 fdisk -i wd1 disklabel -R -r wd1 disklabel.wd1 newfs /dev/wd1a Error: newfs: /dev/wd1a: block device Second section of the newfs(8) manpage. Great ... This worked in 4.3 without any thing else; Likely not just as typed above. Sorry, this does seem ok in 4.3. (An example in the FAQ uses a relative path, and that's what I've always done.) cheers, -wb
Re: installboot: broken mbr on 4.4
On Sun, Nov 02, 2008 at 07:39:20AM -0500, Josh Grosse wrote: On Sun, Nov 02, 2008 at 04:28:54AM -0700, Michael wrote: On Sun, Nov 02, 2008 at 07:40:12AM +0530, Girish Venkatachalam wrote: ... cd /mnt # /usr/mdec/installboot -v boot /mnt/biosboot wd0 It should not be /usr/mdec/biosboot. Definitely not. ... Thanks for your answer. If 4.4 doesn't install completely (without the installboot error) on a 120 gig hd, I'll try the command the way you posted it and see if it works vs what Josh sent me. The biosboot file (found in /usr/mdec/biosboot of either the ramdisk kernel or a default install) is the PBR which is placed in the first sector of the partition. The boot file (found in /usr/mdec/biosboot of either the -- That should be boot. (Otherwise, I agree.) ramdisk kernel or a default install, or in /boot in a default install) is the second stage bootloader program.
Re: editors in floppy44.fs (OpenBSD 4.4.) - newbee help
On Sun, Nov 02, 2008 at 07:31:04AM +0530, Girish Venkatachalam wrote: On 13:36:22 Nov 01, Chris Kuethe wrote: As long as your filesystems are still readable, you can use a more comfortable tool: mount /dev/wd0a /mnt mount /dev/wd0d /mnt/var mount /dev/wd0e /mnt/usr /mnt/usr/sbin/chroot /mnt vi (or mg) /etc/fstab you could possibly even just copy your fstab from your freshly mounted /var (/var/backups/etc_fstab.*) This is what I was also wondering Chris. I always vi in single user mode. Or since I have an NFS mount on my network I mount it thro' NFS after assigning a static IP (DHCP does not work) and work. I have never had to use ed either in single user mode or for scripting. While that may be true, it does not take much imaginination to see that another's circumstances may create such a need, or a desire. That said, I do not (and did not) want to denigrate the use of vi(m), mg, emacs or whatever, if someone feels the need for a screen editor, just like I would not want to denigrate the use of Ted, KWord, or whatever, if someone feels the need for a word processor. These appear to me as personal choices. cheers, -wb
Re: editors in floppy44.fs (OpenBSD 4.4.) - newbee help
On Sat, Nov 01, 2008 at 08:33:44PM +0100, soko.tica wrote: Hello list, I did manage to scr... err, mess up partitioning scheme through disklabel, so I've booted from floppy, mounted partitions to /tmp/a/, tmp/d/, /tmp/e/, but when I attempt to edit etc/fstab by ed I get: #chmod 766 /etc/fstab # ed /etc/fstab 215 q # I've arrived there by adding new partition for /var and editing /etc/fstab without executing newfs on new partition. When I then attempted to clean the mess up by running disklabel again, I mixed up /usr and old /var, so I guess I'm stuck to floppy now. Any help (obviously written for dummies) is greatly appreciated. I've never used ed. If you have a running system, try 'man ed'; otherwise, point any browser at http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/man.cgi?query=ed It may not be everyone's first choice for a big interactive editing task, but ed is small, fast on any machine, easy to script and always there. cheers, -wb
Re: NTFS-3G Stable Read/Write Driver ready to merge on cvs obsd ?
On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 03:37:12PM -0400, Heimdall Imbert wrote: I understand what you mean. No, it seems from your response that you do not. The mailing lists are at best secondary sources, for particular and possibly unusual difficulties that you cannot resolve by reading the primary sources, which are the man pages and the FAQ (and of course README and INSTALL.* files and such), and sometimes the documents referenced therein. Following the mailing lists may be counterproductive when you are first learning, because you run the risk of being distracted by shiny trinkets and looking too much at what other people are doing instead of really trying to understand things for yourself, first hand. There is always time later for shiny trinkets. I suppose a kind of warm social feeling might accompany following the mailing lists, and perhaps nobody should knock that; but you should bear in mind that, in terms of information, a lot of what you will see is superfluous, things that people could know or find out for themselves, if they'd just be bothered. (This message is a case in point.) One thing at a time, decide what you want to learn how to do. Be modest in your goals, and read the relevant man pages slowly and carefully. Unless you are already very comfortable with the system, trying to get information by skimming quickly lots of man pages is like trying to pick fly shit from pepper with boxing gloves. It may even be true that time spent reading carefully the man pages for the commands you see when you type 'ls /bin' or 'ls /usr/bin', even in alphabetical order, will in the not too long run give you a better sense of the system than skimming lots of messages on misc@ that you are unprepared to follow. This is not to say that misc@ cannot be a great resource for certain purposes (and marc.info is great for searching misc@, among others). Here's a very inspiring message sent last year by Ted Unangst. http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-miscm=118133997408229 cheers, -wb
Re: NTFS-3G Stable Read/Write Driver ready to merge on cvs obsd ?
On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 12:31:14PM -0400, Heimdall Imbert wrote: Hahaha, I wanted to say the same thing but figured that this wouldn't be an appropriate venue for a discussion of this nature. But since someone else brought it up, I figure I might as well add my two cents. I currently run Debian and Windows XP on my laptop and I use it as a learning tool (because I am nowhere near a guru unlike many of the people here!). I am nothing like a guru, and nothing approaching a programmer. I cannot write a simple shell script without rereading parts of man pages to remember how it goes; sometimes I cannot even write a simple XHTML file without consulting the definition at w3.org to remember how it goes. I have never used Windows, I used Linux only briefly, and since then I've used nothing but OpenBSD (except where I have a shell account on a machine that belongs to someone else, and then only remotely). In my opinion OpenBSD is the ultimate learning tool, perhaps largely because of the high quality of its documentation. Also because on mailing lists like this one the developers are willing to tell it straight however the rest of us may react (I view that in itself as a form of generosity). You just have to commit to reading carefully and with patience (mainly towards the gradual accumulation of your own understanding). I think the widespread view that OpenBSD is only, or mainly, for gurus is an unfortunate myth. On the other hand, it may be true that OpenBSD is only, or mainly, for people who are willing to read carefully and patiently, and who understand and accept how OpenBSD is offered to the world for free. I believe that the latter point could be better and more widely understood. cheers, -wb (Who's received his copy of 4.4 late last week, and thanks the developers for another job (predictably) well done.)
Re: Longest Uptime?
On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 05:54:12PM -0700, new_guy wrote: I know. Longest uptime is silly, macho, pointless stuff... but I ran across an old SunOS 2.6 box that had been up for 387 days. It had been hacked. The only reason it was not an open mail relay is that /var was full. So, I thought to myself, I bet I could run an OpenBSD box for that amount of time or longer without getting hacked and without doing much to it. Just wondering what's the longest OpenBSD uptime some folks on misc have seen? I think the final word on this was pronounced (perhaps predictably) by Artur Grabowski. http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-miscm=116792821815901w=2 See especially the link in the foregoing message: http://www.blahonga.org/~art/diffs/epenis-enlargement.20060210 -wb
Re: NTFS-3G Stable Read/Write Driver ready to merge on cvs obsd ?
On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 09:57:04AM +0200, Denis Doroshenko wrote: On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 9:10 AM, Matthew Weigel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Neko wrote: this is the future. people use multiple os on their machine That's actually the past... multibooting seemed way more popular ten years ago than now. I'm going to go out on a limb here, and say that most people - even if their machine is set up to boot multiple systems - really just use one OS per computer. have you done any analysis of statistical data in order to say so? otherwise all those way more popular, most people it is a big IYHO. Yes, and English speakers typically announce this with words like seemed and I'm going to go out on a limb here.
Re: Mail(1) behavior of p command?
On Mon, Aug 04, 2008 at 02:22:01PM -0500, Aaron W. Hsu wrote: Hello all, I am trying to use the mail(1) p command. According to the help that is printed out when running the program, it seems that the p command should pipe the message out to LPR and print it. However, it just prints the message out to standard output. The print command does behave as described in the man page. -b
Re: openbsd web server failure
On Mon, Aug 04, 2008 at 10:58:19AM -0400, Jason Dixon wrote: I've considered putting together a short article on Undeadly describing this technique based on my own efforts porting security/hatchet, but I wasn't sure if there would be any interest. I would be interested in reading the article. (There is already something at www.vnode.ch, which deals more specifically with php.) cheers, -b
Re: 'Nother broken package - git-1.5.4.2
On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 09:30:02AM -0500, L. V. Lammert wrote: On Tue, 15 Jul 2008, Tony Abernethy wrote (to tedu@): Out of curiosity, what happens when you install X but answer no to the question about intending to RUN X? ... It would install all the C crap and not put startx in rc, in general. The question has nothing to do with put startx in rc (Hint: grep -A 5 expect /usr/src/distrib/miniroot/install.sub) If a command line tool like git has a 'GUI Helper', then that package is broken (which, I believe, is the case in this situation). If someone spews the foregoing kind of misinformation to this list, then that someone is broken. cheers, -b
Re: GPL version 4
On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 08:06:23PM +, Miod Vallat wrote: Shouldn't GPL versions follow the bright example of TeX, and thus the next version be 3.1? That might converge in some sense. If the end is to be something like license.template, then we're talking about GPL version theta, where theta is at least strongly inaccessible^W^Wmeasureable.
Re: 'Nother broken package - git-1.5.4.2
On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 03:42:15PM -0500, L. V. Lammert wrote: I always do my homework, Is the following mindless word-drool about 'put startx into rc' an example of how you do your homework? On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 09:30:02AM -0500, L. V. Lammert wrote: On Tue, 15 Jul 2008, Tony Abernethy wrote (to tedu@): Out of curiosity, what happens when you install X but answer no to the question about intending to RUN X? ... It would install all the C crap and not put startx in rc, in general.
Re: ROOTBACKUP=1 no backup done
On Sun, Jul 06, 2008 at 02:25:55AM +0200, Gabri Mate wrote: Hey There List, I've made an /altroot partition, exactly the same size as my /, and it is also mounted. I've put ROOTBACKUP=1 in root's crontab, but my / partition doesn't get dumped on /altroot at the daily cron's run. See item 2. after the first mention of ROOTBACKUP in daily(8) and then the paragraph where fs_type is mentioned for the second time in fstab(5). cheers, -b
Re: Editing C with...
On Sun, May 04, 2008 at 05:32:28PM +0200, Dorian B|ttner wrote: Steve Shockley schrieb: Had a royal PITA the other day when I misspelled softdep in the /usr line in fstab, and didn't know how to use ed. No prob w/o ed :) You can just cat /etc/fstab | grep -v usr /etc/fstab.new followed by echo 'whatever' /etc/fstab.new and then mv everything to it's correct destination. Were he stranded without /usr (and so, without grep, at least on OpenBSD), Steve would not have been able to do that (and if you can mount /usr, just ust vi(1)). A little more than one year ago, Matthias Kilian posted a nice bit of ed advocacy to this list: http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-miscm=117565306629772
Re: OpenBSD Artwork BSD Licensed?
On Sat, Mar 22, 2008 at 08:46:16PM -0600, Theo de Raadt wrote: [Quoting Richard Daemon] I'm not sure how else to ask this, but are we allowed to take some of the OpenBSD artwork such as the blowfish wireframe pictures and specs, get some stickers, t-shirts or other custom media developed and perhaps even sell them? Of course, any profits would get funneled back - and at the same time, it is a form of advocacy and support in a positive light for a preferred project. ... I appreciate any clarification on these questions. Permission for resale is not granted. The project sells some products which use the artwork, and the project in part survives on the sale of those items. This has been asked numerous times before. And yeah, quite a few people have said they would funnel profits back to the project, yet I've never not seen that happen even once. Even when some big tshirt printing places were doing it so, and their customers had said they were doing so. Not a dime. Not saying you would be the same as those people, but you had better prepare for me to be extremely sceptical about such promises. It seems to me that there is an obvious way to address this scepticism if anyone really cares to do so. Namely: Contact Theo directly, offer a donation up front, and follow through on that offer promptly. I don't plan to make t-shirts or stickers, and I'm certainly not a really big donor. I'm just a maths teacher. But that is the kind of example I'd want to set for my kids if I had any such plans.
Re: BSD Documentation License?
On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 08:32:53PM +0200, Lars Noodin wrote: If one has to identify a specific license (or licenses) for OpenBSD documentation, which is/are recommended? Is there a generic BSD-Documenation License anymore? I wasn't able to spot anything in either the OpenBSD FAQ or the Misc mailing list archive. See: /usr/share/misc/license.template cheers, -b
Re: BSD Documentation License?
On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 02:41:27PM -0400, William Boshuck wrote: On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 08:32:53PM +0200, Lars Noodin wrote: If one has to identify a specific license (or licenses) for OpenBSD documentation, which is/are recommended? Is there a generic BSD-Documenation License anymore? I wasn't able to spot anything in either the OpenBSD FAQ or the Misc mailing list archive. See: /usr/share/misc/license.template cheers, -b Crap. Please ignore that, and accept my apologies.
Re: the death of the oldest OpenBSD system on the net...
On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 10:16:13AM +0100, Siegbert Marschall wrote: On Monday 17 March 2008 22:12:05 you wrote: ... Got any more _freebsd_ success stories for [EMAIL PROTECTED] ^^^ No. But I will be shutting down a ten year old Linux server, ... and this week I'll have to replace the clip (for the umpteenth time) of a forty year old fountain pen ...
Re: P2V with VMWare - ERR M
On Fri, Feb 29, 2008 at 07:24:41AM +0530, Girish Venkatachalam wrote: On 09:42:17 Feb 28, Steve Shockley wrote: Recipes don't teach you how to cook. I can second this ... In spite of my making mistakes and experimentation I still cannot be sure how my dish will end up tasting. One needs the right kind of cookbook (which cannot be a culinary howto). The uninitiated will perhaps find these explanations tiresome. But, on closer examination, you will realize that they are indispensible because they embody the fundamental principles, methods, procedures, etc., that, provided the explanations have been understood, will allow you to achieve perfect success in any recipe you undertake. (Madame E. Saint-Ange) Toning down the hyperbolic flourish at the end, it brings to mind the man pages and the FAQ (which, as we all surely agree, is infinitely superior to any collection of mere howtos).
Re: changing bash prompt escape sequences
I have seen the following sort of remarks a couple of times this past week, yet I haven't seen them corrected. Nick Holland is such an excellent writer that, as often as not, you don't need to look at the sample code to follow his advice. That's not relevant in this case, except insofar as I cannot understand why more people don't spend more time with the FAQ (especially those who offer advice). On Sun, Feb 24, 2008 at 12:16:18PM -0500, bofh wrote: In UNIX, it is always recommended not to change root's shell. This is because ... In free UNIX systems, it is also recommended for similar reasons ... ... though there is no good reason not to in OpenBSD. Let's save the rest of http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq10.html#rootshell for the curious reader. (That said, I second recommendations to just use ksh.)
Re: What is our ultimate goal??
On Mon, Feb 18, 2008 at 10:11:32AM +0530, Mayuresh Kathe wrote: ... why don't you and rest of the team, led by Theo take a concious decision to stop downloads? OpenBSD is introduced (e.g., on the main web page) by three, adjectives. It might be worthwhile to grasp the first of those before advancing suggestions.
Re: What is our ultimate goal??
On Mon, Feb 18, 2008 at 10:16:08AM +0530, Mayuresh Kathe wrote: ... I've NEVER got any of the code for FREE, Yes, you did. The code is free. The CDs are not.
Re: Test pedantry, please ignore
On Tue, Jan 29, 2008 at 03:22:24PM -0800, J.C. Roberts wrote: On Tuesday 29 January 2008, Zbigniew Baniewski wrote: That's the second - and last - explaining from my side. I want to add, that such (over)reaction of several persons is very disappointing to me. there once was a Pole without humor uptight as if he had tumors again he sent mail in spite of the hail therby confirming the rumor Please restart humord(1) That's humourd(1). OpenBSD hails from Canada.
Re: Sun Ultra 5
On Thu, Jan 17, 2008 at 11:01:07PM +, Janke Knolli wrote: Hi, my first post here. I just installed OpenBSD 4.2 from the official CD's on a Sun Ultra 5 270Mhz 128MB RAM with mouse, keyboard (5C) and a ordinary vga monitor. All smooth and good. Then there's the problem: Reading MAN-pages is *very* slow in virtual console/terminal. When I use PAGE-DOWN/PAGE-UP it takes 3-4 seconds before the screen updates. Now I've asked several places, googled around and found nothing I can do to improve performance in virtual console. Is this really normal behaviour on a Sun Ultra 5? And is there anything I can do to speed it up? It's ouchie ouchie to learn a new OS when reading MAN-pages equals pain (due to 3-4 sec. wait every page I scroll) I think you'll find mention of this kind of thing in the archives. One possibility is to use a light-weight window manager (cwm, dwm, fvwm, etc.) as a kind of decorated terminal (Likely you won't regret having installed the X sets).
Re: [Fwd: Open-Hardware]
On Mon, Jan 07, 2008 at 06:31:24AM -0500, Richard Stallman wrote: I find it impolite that you partially removed my questions and only responded to some of them. I asked you if you please could respond to all paragraphs. People raise many issues in these messages. My idea of politeness does not say I have to respond to every question that someone asks. I also don't think I have an obligation to be polite to you after the hostility you have shown. To say this now is out of line. While Marco may have displayed impatience from time to time, more recently he has shown no little forbearance in his attempts to help you become informed with respect to hardware/software/firmware/blobs.
Re: A sad thread - RMS vs. OpenBSD
On Mon, Jan 07, 2008 at 01:37:46AM -0600, Duncan Patton a Campbell wrote: On Sun, 6 Jan 2008 22:21:14 -0500 Eliah Kagan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (There are also multiple useful, mutually-inconsistent formal systems in both fields.) Provably so? Yes. For example, in intuitionistic analysis every real-valued function of a real-valued variable is continuous, whereas classically most of them (e.g., in the sense of cardinality) are not. (To anticipate (the substance of) a remark: Yes, e.g., there is no Heaviside function in intuitionistic analysis and no, that does not prevent intuitionistic analysis from being able to do the work in applications that the Heaviside function does for classical analysis (just somewhat differently).) The full picture is more complicated, however. There are translations between the formal systems (or perhaps of one into an expansion by imaginaries, higher types and/or modal operators of (possibly a reduct of) the other). Semantically, this often corresponds to a construction in one formal system of a structure that faithfully (perhaps only relative to certain formulae) models the other formal system. Examples: classically one can verify the foregoing result of intuitionistic analysis, e.g., by interpreting it in a gros topos of subcanonical sheaves on a category of spaces (an extension[1] of Cohen's method of forcing for constructing models of set theory); Klein's model of the hyperbolic plane and the (essentially) Grassmann construction of projective space, each of which is a construction on (part of) an euclidean space. Observe that this does not contradict Matthew's original remark; if anything, it reveals some of the depth of that remark. Matthew knows what he is talking about. [1] This word conceals a lengthy description of an involved relationship; I am sure that some would dispute its aptness.
Cartesian closed without products
Hi Richard, have you looked at Laver's work on elementary embeddings of ranks and left distributive operations? (Bourbaki swerve: Large cardinals ahead.) It is from the early 90's. I think that the main paper was published in the Advances, or the Annals. Patrick Dehornoy (a name you might know from Funk's 2001 paper in TAC, on the Hurwitz action and braid group orderings) has written some expository material around this stuff, most if not all of which is available on his web page.
Re: Real men don't attack straw men
On Mon, Jan 07, 2008 at 12:14:59PM -0500, Richard Salmon wrote: IMO, a big part of the problem here is that when you say recommend in this context what you actually mean appears (based on the discussion here) to be something that most people would express as not deliberately erect barriers against. The evidence of this discussion shows that's not a good description for what I am saying. Many of the people on this list were told that I want OpenBSD to erect barriers against installing non-free programs. And their words show that they think this means designing the system so that installing non-free programs is impossible. (I have not suggested such a thing.) My usage of the recommend fits in normal usage. If you include program FOO in a list of programs that could be installed, implicitly that recommends installing FOO as an option for people to consider. Perhaps implicitly recommend would be a clearer description of this particular case. Once again: Likewise, the inclusion of platform BAR in a list of platforms on which a program FOO may be installed, as well as the availability of binaries for the FOO to run on BAR, implicitly recommends BAR as a choice of platform on which to run FOO, for people and/or enterprises to consider. (Those who would know have informed us that such a situation for gcc and emacs has prompted numerous migrations to Windows. So far nobody has informed us of numerous migrations from free software to non-free software prompted by the ports tree.) In each case recommends is inaccurate insofar as its content partakes of encouragement and the like. It has been pointed out, some time ago and on at least two occasions, that the most accurate way to describe the situation is to say that the ports tree facilitates the installation and maintenance of third party software, not all of which is free. It is clear to anybody who knows what is the ports tree that it is the most accurate description. Of course it is a separate matter to want to use an accurate description (even if it is short, clear and not technical). On Thu, 13 Dec 2007, you did admit I should more precisely have said that the OpenBSD ports system includes instructions for fetching, building and installing specific non-free programs. (in: http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-miscm=119757178526484). Then, on Fri, 14 Dec 2007, you did promise As a courtesy to the OpenBSD developers, and avoid the risk of confusion, I will try from now on to state this in a more precise way. (in: http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-miscm=119767255302887).
Re: Real men don't attack straw men
On Sat, Jan 05, 2008 at 09:58:47PM +0530, Karthik Kumar wrote: On another hand we are not GNU/GPL and we don't mind our users installing non free software if it is what they want. The FAQ is where this needs to be documented for users to get their job done faster. If you don't mind users using non-free software, you shouldn't be putting the 'Free. ' in 'Free. Functional. Secure.' The word 'free' is there because OpenBSD is free. It is not there because developers mind or don't mind users doing this or that. ; You shouldn't be fighting those blob vendors and call them nasty names; Rather, probably document how to use such drivers and firmware 'faster'. Should you wish to inform yourself, there are a number of posts in the list archives explaining various specific reasons why the OpenBSD developers are against blobs. Theo, in particular, wrote at least one rather short and very cogent message explaining the reasons. You should look towards the beginning of the threads, because later on you are more likely to see Theo losing patience with respondents who did not read the original posts (carefully enough, or perhaps not at all).
Re: Real men don't attack straw men
On Sat, Jan 05, 2008 at 11:28:24PM +0530, Karthik Kumar wrote: I represent neither FSF nor OpenBSD. I probably represent the community which listens to the propagandas put across by both but wants to fight back against false marketing and for the right things TM. Great. The first step is to inform yourself to that your role evolves from one who listens to one who understands.
Re: Real men don't attack straw men
On Sat, Jan 05, 2008 at 11:39:17PM +0530, Karthik Kumar wrote: On Jan 5, 2008 11:20 PM, William Boshuck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, Jan 05, 2008 at 09:58:47PM +0530, Karthik Kumar wrote: On another hand we are not GNU/GPL and we don't mind our users installing non free software if it is what they want. The FAQ is where this needs to be documented for users to get their job done faster. If you don't mind users using non-free software, you shouldn't be putting the 'Free. ' in 'Free. Functional. Secure.' The word 'free' is there because OpenBSD is free. It is not there because developers mind or don't mind users doing this or that. You're missing the point why somebody is calling OpenBSD non-free. Such a somebody is mistaken. Full stop. The point why somebody issues mistaken pronouncements is not my concern. Should you wish to inform yourself, there are a number of posts in the list archives explaining various specific reasons why the OpenBSD developers are against blobs. Theo, in particular, wrote at least one rather short and very cogent message explaining the reasons. You should look towards the beginning of the threads, because later on you are more likely to see Theo losing patience with respondents who did not read the original posts (carefully enough, or perhaps not at all). Here is one: http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-questions/2005-March/081313.html A swing and a miss.
Re: Richard Stallman...
On Sat, Jan 05, 2008 at 05:53:40PM +, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote: ... you distribute non-free software. It has been pointed out on numerous occasions that this is a false statement. No, I am a victim Only because you elect to remain uninformed.
Re: how to create package example..
On Fri, Jan 04, 2008 at 09:24:03PM -0800, Jon wrote: Not doing any thing strange.. just want to create a binary (foobar) and create a package so I can add it.** Why I want to do that is not the question. I know I can tar the install location with +CONTENT and +DESC etc.. and get done with it.. I would like to know how to use pkg_create or the ports for a sw that is not current ports directory. I have tried using the ports and working with an example, and it seems like it is beyond my understanding. It works with what ever is in the ports, but I can't seem to replicate it All I need is a ** screen dump ** of a creating a package for a software dist that is not in the default ports. Can some one help provide that examples - with out pointing out a rtfm / source code for a bsd.mk etc.. I have tried and can't seem to understand - so please do put a command of pkg_create with dummy variables.. many thanks.. Did you look at Bernd Ahlers' ports tutorial from OpenCON 2007? OpenCON 2007 (among many interesting events) is mentioned here: http://www.openbsd.org/events.html Here is a direct link to the tutorial: http://www.openbsd.org/papers/opencon07-portstutorial/index.html
Re: how to create a sha256 hash
On Fri, Jan 04, 2008 at 09:30:36PM -0800, Jon wrote: hi how to create a sha256 value for file in openbsd ? See the -a option to cksum(1). or Type apropos sha256 at the prompt, pick something that looks promising (e.g., SHA256_Init) and open its man page. Don't get dejected if the first thing you try isn't what you might have hoped to see. Take a peek at the SEE ALSO section of the man page for something that looks promising. Continue as necessary. The first works in this case, but the second (supported by the FAQ, the various mailing list archives and a bit of patience) seems to work pretty much all the time (mutatis mutandis). At least it does on OpenBSD.
Re: FW: Real men don't attack straw men
On Thu, Jan 03, 2008 at 05:48:13PM +, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote: On Thu, Jan 03, 2008 at 12:05:37PM -0500, Stuart VanZee wrote: Wow... it is incredibly telling that you chose a game, a pretty obscure one at that as far as I can tell, to base your argument on. The world will fall because OpenBSD recommends that people install a game... a game that is free to copy and use for non- commercial use (I looked it up), and you had to go through almost the ENTIRE package collection all the way to the Zs before you could find such a pitiful example. Because they are such pitiful cases, they could be easily removed and remove Stallman's objections to list OpenBSD at the recommended Free Software operating systems, right? More promotion of OpenBSD would be good, right? Richard Stallman referred to certain URLs in certain Makefiles in the ports tree---not the collection of packages, after (in the interview which indirectly prompted this thread) confusing OpenBSD's ports tree with its installation system. He did not refer to the packages collection in the statement in question. This discussion all started because Mr. Stallman very publicly stated that OpenBSD was non-free and distributed non-free software in it's ports tree. He didn't say OpenBSD was non-free, but that it distributed non-free Software. He said that it include[s] in [its] installation system ... non-free software.
Re: Using Mail(1)
On Tue, Dec 25, 2007 at 07:12:50PM +0530, Girish Venkatachalam wrote:
On 12:06:02 Dec 25, Pieter Verberne wrote:
I just checked out the 'wl=72' stuff in vi. Works exactly like 'tw' in
vim. I then did an fmt in the end. The result looks much better
of course. But there is a problem. The quoting gets goofed up. One has
to do it with little more care I guess.
Vim's formatting commands (gq{motion}, gw{motion}) are able
to handle quoting in mail messages. (I think Marc Espie was
referring to these commands in his message.)
Something like 'd-{'?
I don't get you. You mean 'd' and '{'?
Doesn't work for me.
Perhaps I misunderstood? I want to delete everything from current line
till end of file. In vi, it corresponds to
:,$d
He might have meant a vi command (yours is an ex command)
of the form 'd motion'; e.g., dG deletes all lines from
the current line through to the last line of the current
file.
Re: Play Nice - Real men don't attack straw men (Theo)
On Mon, Dec 17, 2007 at 12:21:44PM -0500, Richard Stallman wrote: 2) If supporting non-free software is bad, What I object to is referring people to non-free software as something to install. Supporting is a broader term, and includes various different practices. I don't object to all of them. I just finished listening to the BSDTalk interview for the second time and this is what I think: Richard explains in the interview that all BSD distributions (not OpenBSD specifically) INCLUDE non-free software in their ports system. Using the normal definition of include, this statement is incorrect. I've offered to ask them to post a note to clarify what I meant. I have not seen a response to that offer, but I have decided to ask them anyway. I do not want to misinform anyone. If you wanted to say something short and correct, you could say that (parts of) OpenBSD's ports tree facilitates the installation of (some) non-free software. If you wanted to include a nod to the enormous effort that the OpenBSD developers have put into providing an entirely free operating system, you could mention that OpenBSD itself is entirely free, and that getting the ports tree on your system requires a separate, deliberate, act from that of installing OpenBSD. I don't know whether your statements, or these statements, apply to any of the other BSD's. (Notice how that works. Also, notice the lack of vague reference to hearsay.) But I can well imagine how to find out, and how to determine what would be correct statements about them. It would be responsible to take those measures before pronouncing on the other BSD's. It is not sufficient to just think (or say) 'Well, nobody complained, so it must be true,' or some such.
Re: Real men don't attack straw men
On Sat, Dec 15, 2007 at 04:36:31PM -0500, Richard Stallman wrote: ... Remember all the people who accused me of lying because at some time I described the presence of these recipes as the ports system includes non-free software? Actually, in the quote from the interview you refer first to the installation system, and then confuse the installation system with the ports tree (as that quote applies to OpenBSD). ... The people who created this tangent chose one way I described the facts, and picked a wrong interpretation, ... There has been no misintepretation of the quote, were it pronounced by a competent speaker of the English language. It is possible that the speaker misspoke, or was ill-informed at the time of the interview. In any case, you can clarify the point by acknowledging on this list that OpenBSD is 100% free, and neither includes nor distributes non-free software. ... they raised an imaginary issue, and denounced me for a claim they should have known I did not make. Oh, but then it is trivial to resolve the imaginary issue. Just acknowledge on this list that OpenBSD is 100% free, and neither includes nor distributes non-free software.
Re: Play Nice - Real men don't attack straw men (Theo)
On Sun, Dec 16, 2007 at 08:01:53AM -0600, Marco Peereboom wrote: On Sun, Dec 16, 2007 at 12:11:16AM -0500, David H. Lynch Jr. wrote: ... All of that is called free speech. The right of OpenBSD to be mean, The right to spray views you do not like or people you think are idiots with insults, is called free speech. This is not called free speech, but it is one form of behaviour that may attach to free speech. OpenBSD takes a particular extremist view of freedom, and free speech. Yes, it is called the dictionary definition which is like totally extreme. Not to mention that the general project to emancipate the great unwashed was not motivated by the common person's feeling bereft of the right to be timidly obsequious.
Re: Play Nice - Real men don't attack straw men (Theo)
On Sun, Dec 16, 2007 at 05:24:48PM -0500, David H. Lynch Jr. wrote: Ray Percival wrote: [quoting and excerpt from Theo's log message in (e.g.): http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/src/etc/Attic/ipf.rules] ... But software which OpenBSD uses and redistributes must be free to all (be they people or companies), for any purpose they wish to use it, including modification, use, peeing on, or even integration into baby mulching machines or atomic bombs to be dropped on Australia. Theo [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list, May 29, 2001 That's fine, it is a statement of values and principals, that is exactly what I was looking for - something that is conspicuously absent from the OpenBSD web site. Apart from the rhetorical flourish at the end, that's in the second item in the list near the top of http://www.openbsd.org/goals.html. (The ANY PURPOSE part goes way back, to the summer of '97.) Not to mention policy.html.
Tricky Dicky [Was: Real men don't attack straw men]
On Fri, Dec 14, 2007 at 03:49:19PM -0500, Richard Stallman wrote: I should more precisely have said that the OpenBSD ports system includes instructions for fetching, building and installing specific non-free programs. Yes, that would be the truth. What you did say, however, is not the truth. What I said was the same thing, in different words. The truth about OpenBSD is this: OpenBSD is 100% free. OpenBSD neither includes nor distributes non-free software. OpenBSD has a ports tree. It is not part of the OpenBSD installation system. The OpenBSD ports tree is 100% free. It contains Makefiles, patches and so forth, including URL's which point to non-free software, and code for installing non-free software (none of which is included in, or distributed by, OpenBSD). You said (about BSD's in general and hence, in particular, about OpenBSD): ... all of them include, in their installation systems---in some cases I believe it's called a ports system, I don't know if they all use that term---they all include some non-free programs, and as a result I can't recommend any of them. This is not the truth about OpenBSD, in different words; as it applies to OpenBSD it is an utterly false statement, for at least two reasons. Above you say 'I should more precisely have said ...', but this quote is neither unclear nor imprecise. It is simply false. You should repudiate that falsehood. Demonstrate that you are actually willing to tell the truth. How about 'I, Richard Stallman, acknowledge that the software included in, and distributed by, OpenBSD is 100% free software'? Please acknowledge publicly the truth about OpenBSD. As a courtesy to the OpenBSD developers, and avoid the risk of confusion, I will try from now on to state this in a more precise way. It would have been courteous to learn something about the project before making false public statements about it. Had you bothered to assimiliate a few basic facts about OpenBSD you would not have said anything like what you did about OpenBSD (assuming that you are inclined to tell the truth when you speak). I do not know personally any OpenBSD developers, yet I shall have the temerity to presume that they are proud of the fact that they produce a completely free operating system, and that not one of them will swoon with the desire to carry your love child because you deign, out of courtesy, to make a back-handed comment about the OpenBSD ports tree in which you are careful to not to tell the truth that OpenBSD (including the ports tree itself) is 100% free. Please, just tell the truth about OpenBSD.
Re: Real men don't attack straw men
On Thu, Dec 13, 2007 at 11:52:11AM -0500, Richard Stallman wrote: Yes, that's what I was told. I was also told that OpenBSD's ports system includes non-free programs. Is that accurate too? (William Boshuck replied:) Strictly speaking, no. If you unpack ports.tar.gz you will find a bunch of makefiles, packing lists, c., all of which are free. I should more precisely have said that the OpenBSD ports system includes instructions for fetching, building and installing specific non-free programs. Yes, that would be the truth. What you did say, however, is not the truth. I usually simplify that to includes At which point you would not be telling the truth about OpenBSD. because I figured anyone who knows about the ports system understands those details, and because they don't change anything. It does change one thing (at least). Namely, it changes a true statement about OpenBSD into a lie about OpenBSD. Don't confuse my aims with those of others with whom you are exchanging messages. I am not trying to convince you to recommend OpenBSD. I want you to tell the truth.
Re: Real men don't attack straw men
On Tue, Dec 11, 2007 at 02:47:00PM -0700, Theo de Raadt wrote: On Tue, Dec 11, 2007 at 02:00:14PM -0500, Richard Stallman wrote: ... I was also told that OpenBSD's ports system includes non-free programs. Is that accurate too? [William Boshuck replied:] Strictly speaking, no. [Theo de Raadt confirmed:] William is right. The OpenBSD ports tree is just a scaffold, and that scaffold is 100% free. It contains no non-free parts. ... Richard -- you spoke out of line. You are wrong. This thread has gone off-track. (I don't mean Theo.) It is extremely important for a very large number of reasons, some of which I understand well and some of which I understand hardly or not at all, that what software is included in, and distributed by, OpenBSD, is free software. This is well-known. It is a serious consideration for many of OpenBSD's current and potential users. About twenty-two minutes and ten seconds into the bsdtalk interview, Richard Stallman says of the BSD's: ... all of them include, in their installation systems---in some cases I believe it's called a ports system, I don't know if they all use that term---they all include some non-free programs, and as a result I can't recommend any of them. It has been pointed out to Richard Stallman, more than once, that this is not a correct statement about OpenBSD. (See Theo's confirmation, above.) Whatever the practical convenience of not telling the truth, it is not ethical to aver that OpenBSD includes non-free software when it does not. (Ignorance is not at issue here. Just as one can say I don't know about the CDDL, one can say I don't know about OpenBSD.) Since Richard Stallman has chosen to pronounce on the matter, and to include OpenBSD in his pronouncement, the ethical thing for him to do now is to acknowledge clearly and unambiguously that OpenBSD does not include non-free software. Full stop. The question of inclusion and/or distribution is clear, precise and unambiguous. OpenBSD neither includes nor distributes non-free software. This is not about Richard Stallman's recommendation. This is about the truth. Questions that concern mention, naming, suggestion, lending legitimacy, and so forth, and attempts to persuade Richard Stallman to recommend OpenBSD, form the material of another discussion.
Re: Real men don't attack straw men
On Tue, Dec 11, 2007 at 02:00:14PM -0500, Richard Stallman wrote: OpenBSD is by far the most free OS in the landscape. Everything that ships with it is free or else it won't be distributed with it. Yes, that's what I was told. I was also told that OpenBSD's ports system includes non-free programs. Is that accurate too? Strictly speaking, no. If you unpack ports.tar.gz you will find a bunch of makefiles, packing lists, c., all of which are free. OpenBSD's ports system depends on programs in the base system which are free. On a modern UNIX-like operating system it possible, even easy, to use free tools like awk, make, perl, sh, and so on, directly or indirectly, to facilitate the installation and maintenance of (free and non-free) software. Your asking the question indicates that you might have done better to exclude OpenBSD from the scope of your remarks. When one does not know, the most appropriate statement is 'I don't know.' Loosely speaking, you can get away with saying pretty much anything that suits you at the time. Loosely speaking is the problem.
Re: removing a list of users
On Thu, Nov 15, 2007 at 01:06:57PM -0500, Piet Slaghekke wrote: Thanks Serge, When I do: while read uid; do userdel $uid; done userlist.txt I get: while: Expression Syntax. The foregoing command was written in Bourne shell syntax. The error message you report suggests that you are using csh or tcsh, or at any rate, a shell that doesn't speak Bourne shell syntax. -b
Re: [OT] making Firefox respect telnet:// URLs
On Mon, Nov 12, 2007 at 02:02:32AM +0100, Linus Swdlas wrote:
On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 00:25:29 +0100, ropers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The ${var##string} part is ksh or bash specific, see Parameter Expansion
in the bash man page if you're using bash.
I see your #! line says /bin/sh but to my knowledge a real sh, not
emulated by bash or ksh doesn't support ${##} and friends, if I'm wrong
feel free to correct me. =)
This kind of parameter substitution is in the POSIX 1 specification
for sh. See the parameters section of the man page for sh(1).
Yes. $@ is also all the positional parameters, they expand differently
when expanded inside . A full explaination can be found under Special
Parameters in the bash man page.
Since the other person is using sh, at the moment, it is
probably more apt to point to the Parameters section of
the man page for sh(1).
But I wouldn't, I'd let bash do it:
Probably better to use sh, or ksh, since they
are in OpenBSD by default, and are more than
up to the task.
cheers,
-b
Re: Printing with apsfilter
On Sun, Nov 11, 2007 at 10:43:42AM -0500, Douglas A. Tutty wrote: On Sat, Nov 10, 2007 at 09:57:56PM -0500, William Boshuck wrote: ... you can use rg in /etc/printcap. IIRC, LRNng also lets you make it easy so that, for example, if you have 1000 users in 100 work groups, with 100 work group printers, each user can just print and their work will go to their own work-group printer, or, if it is down, perhaps to a backup printer in the work group next-door. I hadn't intended to respond to these points (in fact, I hadn't read them at the time), only to: ... I think that lpd just lets you specify what boxes can make print requests. cheers, -b
Re: Printing with apsfilter
On Sat, Nov 10, 2007 at 08:46:19PM -0500, Douglas A. Tutty wrote: ... And this is the big difference between lpd and LPRng. With LPRng you can specify who can use what of those printers even if all the originators are on the same box. I think that lpd just lets you specify what boxes can make print requests. Doug. Well, you can use rg in /etc/printcap.
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
On Sat, Nov 03, 2007 at 12:16:50PM +0100, Karel Kulhavy wrote: On Wed, Oct 31, 2007 at 09:49:03AM -0600, Theo de Raadt wrote: Surely they are too busy whining at us for lists, to actually search for the lists. I'll say it again more clearly -- all of you whiners just plain suck. Who do you mean with whiners? People who report bugs? In the quoted sentence Surely they are too busy whining at us for lists, to actually search for the lists, Theo appears to refer to people who are too busy whining at the devlopers for lists, to actually search for the lists.
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
On Sat, Nov 03, 2007 at 12:01:46PM +0100, Karel Kulhavy wrote: On Wed, Oct 31, 2007 at 09:23:53AM -0600, Theo de Raadt wrote: ... We've got a PR database with bugs in it, and we NEVER get fixes from outsiders. That's not news to anyone, if they actually wanted to do Maybe the outsiders just cannot find the PR database. I put openbsd pr database into google and looked into all links on the first page. The pr database is always mentioned, but never linked. Where is it? It would seem that the most difficult part of this search is to realize that PR stands for problem report, not public relations. Perhaps not. One must also come to grips with the obscure and esoteric tendency of certain programmers, who refer to problems as bugs. There is also the barely plausible conjecture that OpenBSD's problem reports might just be somewhere at www.openbsd.org.
Re: non-PHP webmail solutions
On Sat, Oct 06, 2007 at 06:16:59PM +0200, Robert Urban wrote: ... a while ago (Nov, 2006), someone asked what webmail solutions people recommended. People suggested: ... of all of these, only openwebmail does not rely on PHP, which I deeply mistrust. Does anyone know of any others that don't use PHP? About a year ago (http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/openbsd/2006-11/0052.html) Diana mentioned Prayer: http://www-uxsup.csx.cam.ac.uk/~dpc22/prayer/ I have no need for such a thing, but given what (little) I know about Diana from reading this list, and a brief perusal of the foregoing page, that's one of the first things I'd try. -b
Re: The Atheros story in much fewer words
On Sun, Sep 16, 2007 at 08:19:39AM +1000, Damien Miller wrote: On Sat, 15 Sep 2007, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote: On Sat, Sep 15, 2007 at 09:54:10PM +1000, Damien Miller wrote: On Sat, 15 Sep 2007, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote: You seem uneducated about how powerless someone is without the freedom to change a program because he has no access to the source code. You seem to be entirely missing the irony of making this statement in the context of an argument about software _reverse engineered from a binary blob_. You seem to be entirely missing the fact that it requires extraordinary skill, which used in the defense of your arguments contradicts the freedom for all you defend, since it's only avialable to a select few, even among the already scarce select few programmers among the human beings. I don't know which of my arguments you are talking about in your pontificating rant, because this is the first time I have ever replied to you. Last too. The evidence indicates that Rui is not, in fact, a human being, but the latest (and possibly the most impressive to date) application of the Dada Engine. -b
Re: Show your appreciation and get your 4.2 DVD
On Thu, Sep 06, 2007 at 11:15:15PM -0600, Theo de Raadt wrote: Decreasing CD sales means the margins have to be adjusted. More of you are relying on our FTP services, and also donating less. When I started using OpenBSD I was middle-aged and largely computer illiterate (I have never had a computer that runs Windows, and probably I will never learn how to use a word processor or a spreadsheet). I can't swear to it, but I don't think I have asked for technical help on misc@; the man pages and the FAQ helped to resolve every difficulty I can recall having encountered. (Caveat: Perhaps I have modest needs; also, I have a little patience and I like to read.) The price of the CD sets is a fair bit of money for me. Most often I am unable to use them because the CD drives seem to have been among the first things to die in the sparc64 machines that get thrown out (or sold on eBay for ~$100) and land on my bedroom floor. So I rely (almost) exclusively on the FTP services. But I have purchased every release since I've started using OpenBSD, and every time I think it is a bargain. I expect that I will never be in a financial position to compensate you fairly. Thank you. -b
Re: ports installing files in /etc?
On Sat, Nov 18, 2006 at 02:35:27PM +0100, Igor Sobrado wrote: ... As both NetBSD and OpenBSD are using the same tools to manage ports/packages, I don't think this is true. OpenBSD doesn't use pkgsrc, and the pkg_ tools on OpenBSD have been very seriously (and wonderfully) rewritten by Marc Espie. NetBSD (at least as of 2.1.0, the latest version on which I have an account) is not using Espie's tools. I just asked because this behaviour is not documented on the man pages ... I have found that the man pages that come with packages describe pretty accurately how they function on my OpenBSD machines. (Before anyone jumps in about my use of `pretty,' I qualify the claim only because I am a shallow user who cannot speak with any real authority on these matters.) Picking two packages that I use frequently and searching their man pages, I find the location of each of muttrc and screenrc to be documented clearly. cheers, -b
