Re: Is 6.1 expected to happen soon?

2016-11-05 Thread Nick Holland
On 11/05/16 09:13, Ed Ahlsen-Girard wrote:
> On Thu, 3 Nov 2016 20:25:12 -0500
> Ax0n  wrote:
> 
>> My advice: If you really want the performance boost and you think a
>> recent snapshot will provide it, make sure your backups are good and
>> test the snapshot on comparable hardware as best you can. I usually
>> restore the dump to a similar system, then boot from a snapshot
>> bsd.rd and choose "Upgrade", and if it works fine, then do the same
>> upgrade in the production environment. If it doesn't work right,
>> troubleshoot it and file a bug report, or wait a few days and try
>> another snapshot. Or both. Whenever I've had to do this in prod or on
>> a system I rely on daily, I tend to stick with that one working
>> snapshot unless something gets strange.
>> 
>> You can jump back from your mid-cycle snapshot to -RELEASE when 6.1
>> becomes available (presuming the changes you want are included in the
>> release), and then, track -STABLE with cvs, manual patches from
>> errata or use M:Tier's openup script.
>> 
>> 
>> On Thu, Nov 3, 2016 at 8:01 PM,  wrote:
>> 
>>  [...]  
>>  [...]  
>>  [...]  
>> 
> 
> IIRC (and I might not) the only supported path from -current to release
> is reinstallation.

No.
You can always move forward in time by upgrades.  You can't move
BACKWARDS, say from today's snapshot to yesterday's, or 6.0-current to
6.0-release.  But 6.0-current to 6.1-beta to 6.1-release is all good.

Nick.



Re: Is 6.1 expected to happen soon?

2016-11-05 Thread Ed Ahlsen-Girard
On Thu, 3 Nov 2016 20:25:12 -0500
Ax0n  wrote:

> My advice: If you really want the performance boost and you think a
> recent snapshot will provide it, make sure your backups are good and
> test the snapshot on comparable hardware as best you can. I usually
> restore the dump to a similar system, then boot from a snapshot
> bsd.rd and choose "Upgrade", and if it works fine, then do the same
> upgrade in the production environment. If it doesn't work right,
> troubleshoot it and file a bug report, or wait a few days and try
> another snapshot. Or both. Whenever I've had to do this in prod or on
> a system I rely on daily, I tend to stick with that one working
> snapshot unless something gets strange.
> 
> You can jump back from your mid-cycle snapshot to -RELEASE when 6.1
> becomes available (presuming the changes you want are included in the
> release), and then, track -STABLE with cvs, manual patches from
> errata or use M:Tier's openup script.
> 
> 
> On Thu, Nov 3, 2016 at 8:01 PM,  wrote:
> 
>  [...]  
>  [...]  
>  [...]  
> 

IIRC (and I might not) the only supported path from -current to release
is reinstallation.

-- 

Edward Ahlsen-Girard
Ft Walton Beach, FL



Re: Is 6.1 expected to happen soon?

2016-11-04 Thread Paul de Weerd
On Thu, Nov 03, 2016 at 07:42:01PM -0600, Theo de Raadt wrote:
| We need to learn somehow.  Sometimes the commit-pullout-recommit-
| pullout-recommit-pullout-recommit-pullout-recommit-pullout-recommit
| process is too costly.  Want to help shortcut?  Run snapshots?
| 
| Afraid of that?  Don't worry, it happens randomly, rarely and
| sporatically and you likely won't get hit except 1 round of builds.
| Someone will hit it first, we hope.
| 
| Otherwise run releases, and don't participate in the process that
| makes the next release better.  We ask for a bit of snapshot use, but
| you get to make your own choices.

My approach the last few years has been to very frequently update
local, less important, machines (my laptop and workstation).  Then,
when the snapshot is fine on those machines (which it usually is), I
update my home gateway with some of those snaps (it has a different
workload, so it tends to excercise other codepaths possibly finding
bugs I don't find on my laptop/workstation - and besides, reboots are
slightly more annoying, since I lose connectivity for like three whole
minutes while I wait for the machine to come up again).

When it's also fine on my home gateway, I sometimes roll it out to
other machines that run services on the internet.  Here I don't want
to reboot very frequently: that introduces brief downtime.  But
keeping track of source-changes@ and ports-changes@, sometimes bugs
are fixed (think Open/LibreSSL or random bugs in ports for some of the
software I run) which make upgrading a bit more pressing.

Anecdotally, snapshots are quite stable.  My workstation and laptop
almost never have problems, so I'm happy.  And when I do run into
issues, I try to report them to bugs@ so that they're fixed before I
move those more important machines forward.  Since they must move
forward at some point... :)

One thing I've not been doing very much lately is testing diffs that
are sent to tech@.  Time permitting, I'm hoping to pick that up again
soon, applying diffs to machines that are likely to be affected.

Anyway .. this is a very common and easy way to help OpenBSD
development: give feedback about new code.  I guess it's the easiest
approach after donating to the project.

-- 
>[<++>-]<+++.>+++[<-->-]<.>+++[<+
+++>-]<.>++[<>-]<+.--.[-]
 http://www.weirdnet.nl/ 



Re: Is 6.1 expected to happen soon?

2016-11-03 Thread Claus Reheis
Thank you and all the people involved in OpenBSD development for 
providing me with a system I can trust and rely on!


I am running OpenBSD Current since a few months without any major issues 
on my desktop



Greetings

rehcla

On 11/04/16 01:32, Theo de Raadt wrote:

Aren't the snapshots running fairly well vetted code anyway - only
using code that's been accepted into the source tree?  Obviously not
as well vetted as the -STABLE and -RELEASE, of course.

Snapshots are generated as fast as we can, from what is commited.

What gets commited may contain errors.  It happens.  We keep an
eye out to fix those errors and move on.

They also contain features.  Features mail contain errors.  Read
the previous sentence.

It is best effort, but 20 years of best effort has produced something
kind of cool -- and a big piece is that people run snapshots and find
bugs early after commit while developers are fresh, so they can be
fixed.

It is a healthy feedback loop.  Not unique to OpenBSD, but it is the
fundamental component that drives quality in open source projects --
if both sides care about quality.

Not all our users need to be part of this feedback loop, but it is
healthy when there are enough people taking part.  Enough is an
unquantifiable number.  If bugs get found by snapshot users, it is
working.  When they don't find bugs, we don't know if there are too
few bugs or too few snapshot users.




Re: Is 6.1 expected to happen soon?

2016-11-03 Thread Theo de Raadt
> >>Aren't the snapshots running fairly well vetted code anyway - only
> >>using code that's been accepted into the source tree?  Obviously not
> >>as well vetted as the -STABLE and -RELEASE, of course.
> > 
> > Snapshots are generated as fast as we can, from what is commited.
> 
> Doesn't uncommitted code occasionally find its way into snapshots?

Randomly, rarely and sporatically.

A selection of stuff that is benign but subtle, and stuff that is
subtle and non-benign.  Generally in the kernel, so it runs of crashes.

We need to learn somehow.  Sometimes the commit-pullout-recommit-
pullout-recommit-pullout-recommit-pullout-recommit-pullout-recommit
process is too costly.  Want to help shortcut?  Run snapshots?

Afraid of that?  Don't worry, it happens randomly, rarely and
sporatically and you likely won't get hit except 1 round of builds.
Someone will hit it first, we hope.

Otherwise run releases, and don't participate in the process that
makes the next release better.  We ask for a bit of snapshot use, but
you get to make your own choices.



Re: Is 6.1 expected to happen soon?

2016-11-03 Thread Ax0n
My advice: If you really want the performance boost and you think a recent
snapshot will provide it, make sure your backups are good and test the
snapshot on comparable hardware as best you can. I usually restore the dump
to a similar system, then boot from a snapshot bsd.rd and choose "Upgrade",
and if it works fine, then do the same upgrade in the production
environment. If it doesn't work right, troubleshoot it and file a bug
report, or wait a few days and try another snapshot. Or both. Whenever I've
had to do this in prod or on a system I rely on daily, I tend to stick with
that one working snapshot unless something gets strange.

You can jump back from your mid-cycle snapshot to -RELEASE when 6.1 becomes
available (presuming the changes you want are included in the release), and
then, track -STABLE with cvs, manual patches from errata or use M:Tier's
openup script.


On Thu, Nov 3, 2016 at 8:01 PM,  wrote:

> >>Aren't the snapshots running fairly well vetted code anyway - only
> >>using code that's been accepted into the source tree?  Obviously not
> >>as well vetted as the -STABLE and -RELEASE, of course.
> >
> > Snapshots are generated as fast as we can, from what is commited.
>
> Doesn't uncommitted code occasionally find its way into snapshots?
>
> sl



Re: Is 6.1 expected to happen soon?

2016-11-03 Thread sl
>>Aren't the snapshots running fairly well vetted code anyway - only
>>using code that's been accepted into the source tree?  Obviously not
>>as well vetted as the -STABLE and -RELEASE, of course.
> 
> Snapshots are generated as fast as we can, from what is commited.

Doesn't uncommitted code occasionally find its way into snapshots?

sl



Re: Is 6.1 expected to happen soon?

2016-11-03 Thread Theo de Raadt
>Aren't the snapshots running fairly well vetted code anyway - only
>using code that's been accepted into the source tree?  Obviously not
>as well vetted as the -STABLE and -RELEASE, of course.

Snapshots are generated as fast as we can, from what is commited.

What gets commited may contain errors.  It happens.  We keep an
eye out to fix those errors and move on.

They also contain features.  Features mail contain errors.  Read
the previous sentence.

It is best effort, but 20 years of best effort has produced something
kind of cool -- and a big piece is that people run snapshots and find
bugs early after commit while developers are fresh, so they can be
fixed.

It is a healthy feedback loop.  Not unique to OpenBSD, but it is the
fundamental component that drives quality in open source projects --
if both sides care about quality.

Not all our users need to be part of this feedback loop, but it is
healthy when there are enough people taking part.  Enough is an
unquantifiable number.  If bugs get found by snapshot users, it is
working.  When they don't find bugs, we don't know if there are too
few bugs or too few snapshot users.



Re: Is 6.1 expected to happen soon?

2016-11-03 Thread Aaron Mason
Aren't the snapshots running fairly well vetted code anyway - only
using code that's been accepted into the source tree?  Obviously not
as well vetted as the -STABLE and -RELEASE, of course.

On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 1:01 AM, Peter N. M. Hansteen  wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 03, 2016 at 01:56:09AM -0400, alexmcwhir...@triadic.us wrote:
>> I know, it'll happen when it happens...
>>
>> I have a few servers that could really use the updated SMP stuff that
>> -current has. For some applications it's a night and day difference, but I'm
>> not all to comfortable running -current on production machines. I'm just
>> trying to gauge whether or not i should hold out a bit longer or just bite
>> the bullet and test some snapshots. With 6.0 being released in September i
>> am not sure if i should expect 6.1 any time soon.
>
> For most of the project's history, it has followed the six month release cycle
> quite consistently, with some deviations when absolutely necessary (such as
> the events that lead to PF being written), but generally releases have been
> dated May 1st or November 1st.
>
> As far as I know no schedule has been published for upcoming releases, but I
> would speculate that the six month cycle is quite well embedded in the 
> developers'
> lives and will be the norm going forward.  That said, the ongoing SMP work is
> one of those things that could have tentacles that have to be dealt with 
> during
> a slightly longer timespan than the ordinary six month cycle.
>
> Do keep in mind that it's only early November - if the project had stuck to
> the ordinary release schedule, we would only have had 6.0-release since the 
> day
> before yesterday. Come May (or possibly earlier) we'll know for sure how 
> closely
> the 6.1 release will stick to the established schedule.
>
> In the meantime, there are worse things knowledgeable OpenBSD users can do 
> with
> their time than trying out snapshots to get the feel for how development is
> progressing.
>
> --
> Peter N. M. Hansteen, member of the first RFC 1149 implementation team
> http://bsdly.blogspot.com/ http://www.bsdly.net/ http://www.nuug.no/
> "Remember to set the evil bit on all malicious network traffic"
> delilah spamd[29949]: 85.152.224.147: disconnected after 42673 seconds.
>



-- 
Aaron Mason - Programmer, open source addict
I've taken my software vows - for beta or for worse



Re: Is 6.1 expected to happen soon?

2016-11-03 Thread Peter N. M. Hansteen
On Thu, Nov 03, 2016 at 01:56:09AM -0400, alexmcwhir...@triadic.us wrote:
> I know, it'll happen when it happens...
> 
> I have a few servers that could really use the updated SMP stuff that
> -current has. For some applications it's a night and day difference, but I'm
> not all to comfortable running -current on production machines. I'm just
> trying to gauge whether or not i should hold out a bit longer or just bite
> the bullet and test some snapshots. With 6.0 being released in September i
> am not sure if i should expect 6.1 any time soon.

For most of the project's history, it has followed the six month release cycle
quite consistently, with some deviations when absolutely necessary (such as 
the events that lead to PF being written), but generally releases have been
dated May 1st or November 1st. 

As far as I know no schedule has been published for upcoming releases, but I
would speculate that the six month cycle is quite well embedded in the 
developers'
lives and will be the norm going forward.  That said, the ongoing SMP work is
one of those things that could have tentacles that have to be dealt with during
a slightly longer timespan than the ordinary six month cycle. 

Do keep in mind that it's only early November - if the project had stuck to
the ordinary release schedule, we would only have had 6.0-release since the day
before yesterday. Come May (or possibly earlier) we'll know for sure how closely
the 6.1 release will stick to the established schedule.

In the meantime, there are worse things knowledgeable OpenBSD users can do with
their time than trying out snapshots to get the feel for how development is
progressing.

-- 
Peter N. M. Hansteen, member of the first RFC 1149 implementation team
http://bsdly.blogspot.com/ http://www.bsdly.net/ http://www.nuug.no/
"Remember to set the evil bit on all malicious network traffic"
delilah spamd[29949]: 85.152.224.147: disconnected after 42673 seconds.



Re: Is 6.1 expected to happen soon?

2016-11-03 Thread Joseph Pumphrey
Warning: Feckless opining

This is one of the nicer things about OpennBSD from a syadmin perspective.
The release cycle is predictable, and while you may not get a feature you
want from the core utils in the n+1 next release you can be sure that any
new features have been dogfooded thoroughly and are reasonably well-vetted.
Rather than waiting 3-5 years for a "Feature" release and hoping they had
time test all those weird and wonderful new things they are trying to make
their system do.

On Nov 3, 2016 08:45, "Özgür Kazancci"  wrote:

> +1
>
> On Thu, Nov 3, 2016 at 8:56 AM,  wrote:
>
> > I know, it'll happen when it happens...
> >
> > I have a few servers that could really use the updated SMP stuff that
> > -current has. For some applications it's a night and day difference, but
> > I'm not all to comfortable running -current on production machines. I'm
> > just trying to gauge whether or not i should hold out a bit longer or
> just
> > bite the bullet and test some snapshots. With 6.0 being released in
> > September i am not sure if i should expect 6.1 any time soon.



Re: Is 6.1 expected to happen soon?

2016-11-03 Thread ludovic coues
If you need a rough estimate, you can add 6 months to the date of the
last release.

2016-11-03 6:56 GMT+01:00  :
> I know, it'll happen when it happens...
>
> I have a few servers that could really use the updated SMP stuff that
> -current has. For some applications it's a night and day difference, but I'm
> not all to comfortable running -current on production machines. I'm just
> trying to gauge whether or not i should hold out a bit longer or just bite
> the bullet and test some snapshots. With 6.0 being released in September i
> am not sure if i should expect 6.1 any time soon.
>



-- 

Cordialement, Coues Ludovic
+336 148 743 42



Is 6.1 expected to happen soon?

2016-11-03 Thread alexmcwhirter

I know, it'll happen when it happens...

I have a few servers that could really use the updated SMP stuff that 
-current has. For some applications it's a night and day difference, but 
I'm not all to comfortable running -current on production machines. I'm 
just trying to gauge whether or not i should hold out a bit longer or 
just bite the bullet and test some snapshots. With 6.0 being released in 
September i am not sure if i should expect 6.1 any time soon.