Re: Via C7, was Re: VIA Announces Strategic Open Source Driver Development Initiative
On 5/6/08, Geoff Steckel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I use them for firewalls and disk servers. For that they work quite well. Yes, graphics are painfully slow, but I think that's the fault of the integrated graphics. Using a PCI graphics card seems to speed them up quite a bit. One of them I use as a disk server peaks out at about 80 MB/sec, quite respectable for a 32/33 PCI bus machine. As a firewall, doing IPSEC, 20 Mbit/sec uses about 15% of the CPU. Not too bad for a fanless machine drawing less than 30 watts total including disks. geoff steckel I'm so dependent upon GUIs while transitioning over from many years of a career in microsoft support... I am perfectly comfortable installing and configuring OSs and applications from the command line, but when it comes time to see what *state* the machine is in, my little brain needs pretty colors and pointy-clicky. Even though booting up OpenBSD 4.1 and 4.2 takes longer than it should (both from SATA and a 2GB CompactFlash), I'll give 4.3 a spin and keep it strictly command-line. Unfortunately, adding a PCI card isn't an option, since both motherboards are in the same 1U case and portability is paramount (it has to ride in a C-130 back and forth from the middle east). Unless I can fabricate a circuit card just large enough to fit in the PCI slot and then use a cable to pull it up into a free 1U space, then break in back out into a card slot... (A plot is forming in my head) I do have 1U free in the 6U toughbox, and it could just as well be a dedicated external PCI card case, lol. There's probably issues with signal timing and attentuation if the PCI bus gets longer than a few inches, though. What sort of case do you have your boards in? I do appreciate the very-low power draw of the Migrus C787-1.5G, and heat was never an issue even in the worst Mesopotamia had to offer. The whole setup (VSAT satellite receiver, UPS, ethernet switch, active power distribution, servers with two 3.5 SATA drives each, and one shared monitor) pulls under 1 amp in total and never hiccupped using filthily transformed 220V -- 110V, 50Hz electricity. I expected at least *one* device to demand 60Hz but I was fortunately wrong. I was able to provide unfiltered internet access to my fellow servicemembers - the US military blocks services such as myspace.com, yahoo instant messenger (and of course, pr0n) over the network they provide for morale, but most of the people there are young and can't live without. JC
Re: VIA Announces Strategic Open Source Driver Development Initiative
On 4/9/08, Jeffrey 'jf' Lim [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.via.com.tw/en/resources/pressroom/pressrelease.jsp?press_release_no=2088 would this be good news for the community? This is really mainly Linux-related, but i'm hoping that their mention of technical documentation will be good enough for Open to be able to support them... -jf I'm running dual mini-ITX Migrus C787-1.5G motherboards in a 1U case - both have the Via C7 1.5 GHz processor and a gig of RAM each. Aside from the issue of versions of OpenBSD up to 4.2 not liking the three-port gigabit ethernet daughter boards very much, the machines are just downright painfully slow. Slow like molasses, and the OS doesn't seem to matter as I have tried several OpenBSDs, both Enterprise and Desktop editions of Ubuntu 4.07 and 4.10, and even Windows XP Home, Pro, and Server 2003. Nothing speeds them up and even drawing a window using any manager is sometimes more than the things can handle. I can't help but think that the C7s aren't as i386-compatible as Via would have us believe, even though they were billed as great for home media center PCs that could handle encrypted and copy-protected media better than anything else with the build-in decryption hardware. I wasn't interested in this particular application - I needed something very small and minus towering heat sinks to fit in the 1U case. The ml was full of Soekris router throughput issues at the time, so I didn't consider them to be the best option. I bought them to be part of a 6U portable rack that served out VSAT non-military internet access to my unit when deployed, and while they did the job they about killed me with frustration in the process. I could be persuaded to part with one of the motherboards if someone in the project is interested in doing development work for this arch. JC
Re: VIA Announces Strategic Open Source Driver Development Initiative
* frantisek holop [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2008-04-09 22:19]: hmm, on Wed, Apr 09, 2008 at 03:35:18PM -0400, bofh said that Sun learnt a lot of lessons when it tried to merge sparc and x86 code bases together around the solaris 2.4 time, iirc. That's why things like zfs are endian neutral. OpenBSD started in the multi cpu world to begin with. i might be wrong, but i thought as of yet, not everything is endian neutral in openbsd (carp?) carp IS endian-neutral -- Henning Brauer, [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] BS Web Services, http://bsws.de Full-Service ISP - Secure Hosting, Mail and DNS Services Dedicated Servers, Rootservers, Application Hosting - Hamburg Amsterdam
Re: VIA Announces Strategic Open Source Driver Development Initiative
Hi! On Wed, Apr 09, 2008 at 10:12:49PM +0200, frantisek holop wrote: hmm, on Wed, Apr 09, 2008 at 03:35:18PM -0400, bofh said that Sun learnt a lot of lessons when it tried to merge sparc and x86 code bases together around the solaris 2.4 time, iirc. That's why things like zfs are endian neutral. OpenBSD started in the multi cpu world to begin with. i might be wrong, but i thought as of yet, not everything is endian neutral in openbsd (carp?) FFS itself (the on-disk layout). In contrary, ext2 *is*. -f Kind regards, Hannah.
Re: VIA Announces Strategic Open Source Driver Development Initiative
On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 03:41:54AM +0200, Zbigniew Baniewski wrote: On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 12:08:26AM +, Jacob Meuser wrote: Yes, I noticed it's there - but does the driver support all of the available capabilities? according to BUGS in envy(4), no. but emu(4) doesn't support all the features of the emu10k1 chips, either. I understand - but the mentioned VIA opening is suggesting, that perhaps completing the envy driver can be much easier, if VIA will release the docs; Creative Labs, unfortunately, still doesn't seem to be willing to. besides the MIDI port and the world clock the envy24 chip support is quite complete. Unfortunately that doesn't mean that all envy-based cards are fully usable. - first, envy24 is a generic digital only chip; it's connected to up to 4 codecs that do the analog-digital conversions and that hold the gain knobs. So to add support for a new cards we must add support for its codecs, and we need to know how these codecs are wired to the envy24 chip, how gpio pins are used, etc... (this may require docs from the sound card manufacturer, not via) - second, there are limitations in most audio apps and in our audio(4) device that makes envy24-based cards hard to use (eg. lack of 24/32-bit encoding or 10/12 channel support). IMO, this is the most urgent to solve. I'm not sure, nevertheless, if that envy24-related docs is enough; there are some other chips on the envy-fitted cards, anyway. The VIA opening won't be of any help in this particular case? at least some datasheets are/have been available: http://envy24.svobodno.com/datasheets/ I think, I'll have to make a comparison with Audigy soon... ;) as I can see, there are even (semi?)professional cards built using Envy; like f.e. this one: http://www.ixbt.com/multimedia/[EMAIL PROTECTED] afaik, these cards are based on envy24ht, not envy24. -- Alexandre
Re: VIA Announces Strategic Open Source Driver Development Initiative
On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 09:36:51PM +0200, Alexandre Ratchov wrote: - first, envy24 is a generic digital only chip; it's connected to up to 4 codecs that do the analog-digital conversions and that hold the gain knobs. So to add support for a new cards we must add support for its codecs, and we need to know how these codecs are wired to the envy24 chip, how gpio pins are used, etc... (this may require docs from the sound card manufacturer, not via) That's I was afraid of. afaik, these cards are based on envy24ht, not envy24. What do you think about (much cheaper) Chaintech AV-710? There's a version with envy24... perhaps someone's using this under OpenBSD? http://icrontic.com/articles/chaintech_av710_71_audio_card_review http://techgage.com/article/chaintech_av-710_71_sound_card/ http://www.sudhian.com/index.php?/articles/show/654 -- pozdrawiam / regards Zbigniew Baniewski
Re: VIA Announces Strategic Open Source Driver Development Initiative
On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 09:47:37PM +0200, Zbigniew Baniewski wrote: On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 09:36:51PM +0200, Alexandre Ratchov wrote: - first, envy24 is a generic digital only chip; it's connected to up to 4 codecs that do the analog-digital conversions and that hold the gain knobs. So to add support for a new cards we must add support for its codecs, and we need to know how these codecs are wired to the envy24 chip, how gpio pins are used, etc... (this may require docs from the sound card manufacturer, not via) That's I was afraid of. well, if both codecs and the digital chip are well documented, how they are connected is not too hard to guess. There's an EEPROM that gives hints. afaik, these cards are based on envy24ht, not envy24. What do you think about (much cheaper) Chaintech AV-710? There's a version with envy24... perhaps someone's using this under OpenBSD? http://icrontic.com/articles/chaintech_av710_71_audio_card_review http://techgage.com/article/chaintech_av-710_71_sound_card/ http://www.sudhian.com/index.php?/articles/show/654 according to the second link, it uses envy24HT so it will not work with the current envy(4) driver. FYI envy24 is also known as VT1712 or ICE1712. Esi-julia and AV-710 seem to use the VT1721. For a sound card (beside being supported) the most important is the analog part, that will determine the sound quality, the esi julia seems quite promising in this respect. Nevertheless, if i one day I get one, I'll happily work on the HT driver ;) -- Alexandre
Re: VIA Announces Strategic Open Source Driver Development Initiative
On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 10:25:50PM +0200, Alexandre Ratchov wrote: well, if both codecs and the digital chip are well documented, how they are connected is not too hard to guess. There's an EEPROM that gives hints. You're right: if. ;) But found some more info about the other chips: http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?title=Chaintech_AV-710 afaik, these cards are based on envy24ht, not envy24. What do you think about (much cheaper) Chaintech AV-710? There's a version with envy24... perhaps someone's using this under OpenBSD? http://icrontic.com/articles/chaintech_av710_71_audio_card_review http://techgage.com/article/chaintech_av-710_71_sound_card/ http://www.sudhian.com/index.php?/articles/show/654 according to the second link, it uses envy24HT so it will not work with the current envy(4) driver. FYI envy24 is also known as VT1712 or ICE1712. Esi-julia and AV-710 seem to use the VT1721. Perhaps I misunderstood that test at icrontic - there was a comparison of the chips, and this was suggesting, that there are four versions of the card; probably wrong conclusion. The testers are publishing a bit contradictory informations: f.e. on the page: http://techgage.com/article/chaintech_av-710_71_sound_card First you'll find: VIA ENVY 24PT, several verses down a remark: The heart of the card is the Envy24 HT-S Chipset - with a photo on the side. A photo of... ENVY 24PT. Immediately below - image of ENVY 24HT-S. :-O What a pity; the card has quite good reviews. OK, must look further... -- pozdrawiam / regards Zbigniew Baniewski
Re: VIA Announces Strategic Open Source Driver Development Initiative
On 2008-04-09, Jeffrey 'jf' Lim [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.via.com.tw/en/resources/pressroom/pressrelease.jsp?press_release_no=2088 would this be good news for the community? Too early to say, they haven't released anything yet.
Re: VIA Announces Strategic Open Source Driver Development Initiative
http://www.via.com.tw/en/resources/pressroom/pressrelease.jsp?press_release_no=2088 would this be good news for the community? This is really mainly Linux-related, but i'm hoping that their mention of technical documentation will be good enough for Open to be able to support them... Developers don't need web sites. They need pdf files documenting the chips. Contrast Via's web site to the following: http://wikis.sun.com/display/FOSSdocs/Home It took us a very long time to get Sun to do this, and it was totally worth it. It is kind of strange to us to have Sun suddenly be the perfect example of openness. Pay close attention to how VIA is only talking about their newest flashiest chips, too.
Re: VIA Announces Strategic Open Source Driver Development Initiative
hmm, on Wed, Apr 09, 2008 at 11:25:25AM -0600, Theo de Raadt said that It took us a very long time to get Sun to do this, and it was totally worth it. It is kind of strange to us to have Sun suddenly be the perfect example of openness. a bit OT, but i just had the pleasure of meeting and ex-sun employee, working mostly on kernel stuff. i dont know how similar the opensolaris and solaris kernels are, but he said the solaris kernel code is a beauty to read, and simplicity and readibility are adhered to fanatically... that reminds me another dev community :o) as i read some of the sun employees blogs, i think there might be quite some similarities between the two dev cultures (hope this doesnt insult too much people), it's just that sun is a company... and that alone ties a lot of hands (as we all know)... -f -- suicidal twin kills sister by mistake!
Re: VIA Announces Strategic Open Source Driver Development Initiative
On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 3:07 PM, frantisek holop [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: a bit OT, but i just had the pleasure of meeting and ex-sun employee, working mostly on kernel stuff. i dont know how similar the opensolaris and solaris kernels are, but he said the solaris kernel code is a beauty to read, and simplicity and readibility are adhered to fanatically... that reminds me another dev community :o) Sun learnt a lot of lessons when it tried to merge sparc and x86 code bases together around the solaris 2.4 time, iirc. That's why things like zfs are endian neutral. OpenBSD started in the multi cpu world to begin with. -- http://www.glumbert.com/media/shift http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGvHNNOLnCk This officer's men seem to follow him merely out of idle curiosity. -- Sandhurst officer cadet evaluation. Securing an environment of Windows platforms from abuse - external or internal - is akin to trying to install sprinklers in a fireworks factory where smoking on the job is permitted. -- Gene Spafford learn french: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1G-3laJJP0feature=related
Re: VIA Announces Strategic Open Source Driver Development Initiative
hmm, on Wed, Apr 09, 2008 at 03:35:18PM -0400, bofh said that Sun learnt a lot of lessons when it tried to merge sparc and x86 code bases together around the solaris 2.4 time, iirc. That's why things like zfs are endian neutral. OpenBSD started in the multi cpu world to begin with. i might be wrong, but i thought as of yet, not everything is endian neutral in openbsd (carp?) -f -- you don't have to be a cannibal to get fed up with people.
Re: VIA Announces Strategic Open Source Driver Development Initiative
On Wed, Apr 09, 2008 at 09:07:08PM +0200, frantisek holop wrote: It took us a very long time to get Sun to do this, and it was totally worth it. It is kind of strange to us to have Sun suddenly be the perfect example of openness. So, perhaps the best audio-option would be something using VIA Envy24(HT) - which is reportedly better than Audigy(2)? Time to swap? -- pozdrawiam / regards Zbigniew Baniewski
Re: VIA Announces Strategic Open Source Driver Development Initiative
On Wed, Apr 09, 2008 at 10:57:05PM +0200, Zbigniew Baniewski wrote: On Wed, Apr 09, 2008 at 09:07:08PM +0200, frantisek holop wrote: It took us a very long time to get Sun to do this, and it was totally worth it. It is kind of strange to us to have Sun suddenly be the perfect example of openness. So, perhaps the best audio-option would be something using VIA Envy24(HT) - which is reportedly better than Audigy(2)? Time to swap? envy(4) already exists in -current (and will be in 4.3). doesn't support the HT version though. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org
Re: VIA Announces Strategic Open Source Driver Development Initiative
On Wed, Apr 09, 2008 at 10:49:07PM +, Jacob Meuser wrote: So, perhaps the best audio-option would be something using VIA Envy24(HT) - which is reportedly better than Audigy(2)? Time to swap? envy(4) already exists in -current (and will be in 4.3). doesn't support the HT version though. Yes, I noticed it's there - but does the driver support all of the available capabilities? The VIA opening won't be of any help in this particular case? -- pozdrawiam / regards Zbigniew Baniewski
Re: VIA Announces Strategic Open Source Driver Development Initiative
On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 01:11:47AM +0200, Zbigniew Baniewski wrote: On Wed, Apr 09, 2008 at 10:49:07PM +, Jacob Meuser wrote: So, perhaps the best audio-option would be something using VIA Envy24(HT) - which is reportedly better than Audigy(2)? Time to swap? envy(4) already exists in -current (and will be in 4.3). doesn't support the HT version though. Yes, I noticed it's there - but does the driver support all of the available capabilities? according to BUGS in envy(4), no. but emu(4) doesn't support all the features of the emu10k1 chips, either. The VIA opening won't be of any help in this particular case? at least some datasheets are/have been available: http://envy24.svobodno.com/datasheets/ -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org
Re: VIA Announces Strategic Open Source Driver Development Initiative
On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 12:08:26AM +, Jacob Meuser wrote: Yes, I noticed it's there - but does the driver support all of the available capabilities? according to BUGS in envy(4), no. but emu(4) doesn't support all the features of the emu10k1 chips, either. I understand - but the mentioned VIA opening is suggesting, that perhaps completing the envy driver can be much easier, if VIA will release the docs; Creative Labs, unfortunately, still doesn't seem to be willing to. I'm not sure, nevertheless, if that envy24-related docs is enough; there are some other chips on the envy-fitted cards, anyway. The VIA opening won't be of any help in this particular case? at least some datasheets are/have been available: http://envy24.svobodno.com/datasheets/ I think, I'll have to make a comparison with Audigy soon... ;) as I can see, there are even (semi?)professional cards built using Envy; like f.e. this one: http://www.ixbt.com/multimedia/[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- pozdrawiam / regards Zbigniew Baniewski
Re: VIA Announces Strategic Open Source Driver Development Initiative
On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 9:41 AM, Zbigniew Baniewski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 12:08:26AM +, Jacob Meuser wrote: Yes, I noticed it's there - but does the driver support all of the available capabilities? according to BUGS in envy(4), no. but emu(4) doesn't support all the features of the emu10k1 chips, either. I understand - but the mentioned VIA opening is suggesting, that perhaps completing the envy driver can be much easier, if VIA will release the docs; Creative Labs, unfortunately, still doesn't seem to be willing to. oh it's more than that! Creative: the company that sues you for your drivers. And gets to decide which features it will want to enable its drivers for you, the consumer. How's that for a creative perspective on the rights of the customer! http://hardware.slashdot.org/hardware/08/03/29/046201.shtml -Jeff -- In the meantime, here is your PSA: It's so hard to write a graphics driver that open-sourcing it would not help. -- Andrew Fear, Software Product Manager, NVIDIA Corporation http://kerneltrap.org/node/7228
Re: VIA Announces Strategic Open Source Driver Development Initiative
Jeffrey 'jf' Lim wrote: http://www.via.com.tw/en/resources/pressroom/pressrelease.jsp?press_release_no=2088 would this be good news for the community? This is really mainly Linux-related, but i'm hoping that their mention of technical documentation will be good enough for Open to be able to support them... -jf -- In the meantime, here is your PSA: It's so hard to write a graphics driver that open-sourcing it would not help. -- Andrew Fear, Software Product Manager, NVIDIA Corporation http://kerneltrap.org/node/7228 Good news. I will support VIA. Keep up the good works. -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/%22VIA-Announces-Strategic-Open-Source-Driver-Development-Initiative%22-tp16583213p16600841.html Sent from the openbsd user - misc mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
