Re: Open Source hardware (Re: can't get vesa @ 1280x800 or nv)
On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 23:01:18 -0700, Theo de Raadt wrote: You are a prick. I don't know what his problem was but Back in early September I bought a new netbook. A samsung NC20. It has 1280x800 video. In the past I've had fun with video doing X so I thought I'd toss a quick install of a Linux on so that I could get some X settings to plug into my config for OpenBSD. After trying seven (yes 7!) Linuices including Ubuntu netbook Remix, I gave up and did a 7 minute install. I even told it to do an X login. Fearing the worst, at the end of the install I entered reboot and crossed everything. And it Just Worked (TM). I put fluxbox on and firefox and compiled the java plug-in so that I could do banking and went to EuroBSD. (I had the ports tree on the netbook, left it overnight) Sweet! No workin' furries as spoonerising Aussies would say. Tell that to whiners about 1280x800 with OpenBSD. Thanks OpenBSD devs. *** NOTE *** Please DO NOT CC me. I am subscribed to the list. Mail to the sender address that does not originate at the list server is tarpitted. The reply-to: address is provided for those who feel compelled to reply off list. Thankyou. Rod/ --- This life is not the real thing. It is not even in Beta. If it was, then OpenBSD would already have a man page for it.
Re: Open Source hardware (Re: can't get vesa @ 1280x800 or nv)
You are a prick.
Re: Open Source hardware (Re: can't get vesa @ 1280x800 or nv)
2009/12/6 rhubbell rhubb...@ihubbell.com: Another sensitive type. Guess there are always a few on every list. Your manner is counter productive, including for yourself. So why do you persist? Unless of course you're more interested in causing mischief than getting anything out of OpenBSD. Please, either adjust your attitude or leave.
Re: Open Source hardware (Re: can't get vesa @ 1280x800 or nv)
On Sat, 2009-12-05 at 17:08 -0500, Ted Unangst wrote: On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 4:09 PM, Soner Tari so...@comixwall.org wrote: On Sat, 2009-12-05 at 21:30 +0100, Matthieu Herrb wrote: Making hardware is a lot more difficult than writing software. So it takes more resources and more skills. Sorry Matthieu, but I have to say that this is utter bullshit, and I believe such underestimation is the underlying reason that many software suck. I think the point is the tools to make software are more readily available than the tools to make hardware. Let's say so you want to make a graphics card. Let's also say that you're only interested in playing quake3. What does it take to party like 1999? About 150 MHz on a 180nm process. And what does it cost to fab some 180nm chips? More than I've ever spent on all the computers I've ever written software with. To read his comments with such meaning, I would have to replace the words difficult and skills in his sentences with others. However, assuming that's really the intended meaning, yes you are right, investment to produce hardware or semiconductors is very high (so I cannot do it at home). But that's hardly a concern for venture capitalists or corporations like IBM, Intel, etc., hence hardly a reason for the lack of open hardware. (Unless of course the definition of open here is equated to homemade.) On the other hand, when I look at open source software, things do not seem too bright either (although I can do it at home): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems So, I believe the reasons behind these should be searched somewhere else other than skills or costs. (Looking at other posts in this thread, I regret that I've ever sent my first reply. So, back to silent mode again...)
Re: Open Source hardware (Re: can't get vesa @ 1280x800 or nv)
On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 10:59 PM, rhubbell rhubb...@ihubbell.com wrote: Why did I say that? Let's take a poll on this list of how many people are using one of those cards? Or any list, anywhere. I have not contributed to it in anyway. But why is that relevant? Can you explain? And how did you contribute? Man, you need to learn who are the people you talk to. That is not something we can do for you. Learn to respect people when posting. Ignorance is bliss but in your case, it makes you look fairly bad (notice i didn't use any insult or swearing :) Steph
Re: Open Source hardware (Re: can't get vesa @ 1280x800 or nv)
On Sun, Dec 06, 2009 at 11:11:07AM +0200, Soner Tari wrote: On Sat, 2009-12-05 at 17:08 -0500, Ted Unangst wrote: On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 4:09 PM, Soner Tari so...@comixwall.org wrote: On Sat, 2009-12-05 at 21:30 +0100, Matthieu Herrb wrote: Making hardware is a lot more difficult than writing software. So it takes more resources and more skills. Sorry Matthieu, but I have to say that this is utter bullshit, and I believe such underestimation is the underlying reason that many software suck. I think the point is the tools to make software are more readily available than the tools to make hardware. Let's say so you want to make a graphics card. Let's also say that you're only interested in playing quake3. What does it take to party like 1999? About 150 MHz on a 180nm process. And what does it cost to fab some 180nm chips? More than I've ever spent on all the computers I've ever written software with. To read his comments with such meaning, I would have to replace the words difficult and skills in his sentences with others. Since your reply implicitly replaced making with designing, that shouldn't prove to much of a stretch.
Re: Open Source hardware (Re: can't get vesa @ 1280x800 or nv)
On Sun, 2009-12-06 at 10:16 -0500, William Boshuck wrote: Since your reply implicitly replaced making with designing, that shouldn't prove to much of a stretch. My reply explicitly emphasizes the difficulty in designing software, which is part of writing it. Otherwise, I mention I am against comparing making hardware with writing software (i.e. comparing apples with oranges). This is completely OT now anyway.
Re: Open Source hardware (Re: can't get vesa @ 1280x800 or nv)
On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 2:30 PM, Matthieu Herrb mhe...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 9:02 PM, rhubbell rhubb...@ihubbell.com wrote: Yes, I'd like to see some pointers also. I recall that there was discussion (might've been on linux kernel) a while ago about a partially-open video card. Why doesn't the community support that? You mean http://www.opengraphics.org ? What makes you say that? How did *you* contribute? I recall that price was a factor in lack of uptake. Seems to me that opensource is farsical if it runs on closesource hardware. So where's the opensource hardware? Seems like the new world order isn't going to allow that. The trend in hardware looks like a race to keep control. Seems like we are going to be paying for the hardware but not owning; instead leasing. Or am I behind the times and there's salvation from some beneficent hardware maker in Taiwan? Making hardware is a lot more difficult than writing software. So it takes more resources and more skills. This is probably why there aren't so many of them. A graphics card is about both, and I don't think hardware is that 'hard' (if I can do it it must be easy :-). The real barriers to entry are economic. A mask set for a current generation ASIC (say 45nm) is somewhere upwards of one million US $. (http://www.eetimes.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=198900081) so unless you have terrific volumes to amortize over, custom chips are pretty much out of play. You could see if you can swing a deal with someone to roll the mask costs into the piece price, but you'll have to convince them that you'll run enough pieces to make it worth their while. In general the specialized design software needed to make a design that will work costs a similar amount (digital and analog simulators, logic synthesis, Design rule checkers, place and route, design for test, etc). That pretty much leaves you in the FPGA world like the opengraphics people are. You can use the FPGA vendor's volumes to get access to leading edge process technology, but are stuck with their architecture. Usually the premium FPGAs start at around $100 ea. and go up into the $1000 range, so you end up looking at the 'value' parts (spartan and cyclone for brand X and brand A) to keep costs down which limits what you can do even more. The one nice thing about FPGA is that the vendors usually make the parts for a long time, so availability and control is good.
Re: Open Source hardware (Re: can't get vesa @ 1280x800 or nv)
Oh, we have another troll on the lists! Welcome rhubbell! May ignorance be with you and stupidity always guide your emails, amen!
Re: Open Source hardware (Re: can't get vesa @ 1280x800 or nv)
On Sun, Dec 06, 2009 at 06:43:01PM +0200, Soner Tari wrote: On Sun, 2009-12-06 at 10:16 -0500, William Boshuck wrote: Since your reply implicitly replaced making with designing, that shouldn't prove to much of a stretch. My reply explicitly emphasizes the difficulty in designing software, which is part of writing it. Otherwise, I mention I am against comparing making hardware with writing software (i.e. comparing apples with oranges). All kinds of people are against all kinds of valid activities. So what? This is completely OT now anyway. It went off-topic with your first message.
Re: Open Source hardware (Re: can't get vesa @ 1280x800 or nv)
On Sat, 2009-12-05 at 21:30 +0100, Matthieu Herrb wrote: Making hardware is a lot more difficult than writing software. So it takes more resources and more skills. Sorry Matthieu, but I have to say that this is utter bullshit, and I believe such underestimation is the underlying reason that many software suck. Read this for a summary of cognitive requirements of software design: http://argouml.tigris.org/docs/robbins_dissertation/diss2.html And yes, I did hardware design too. But no, I have no intension to compare hardware and software development like you did. I usually resist replying such threads and keep my silence, but your comment above begged for it.
Re: Open Source hardware (Re: can't get vesa @ 1280x800 or nv)
On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 4:09 PM, Soner Tari so...@comixwall.org wrote: On Sat, 2009-12-05 at 21:30 +0100, Matthieu Herrb wrote: Making hardware is a lot more difficult than writing software. So it takes more resources and more skills. Sorry Matthieu, but I have to say that this is utter bullshit, and I believe such underestimation is the underlying reason that many software suck. I think the point is the tools to make software are more readily available than the tools to make hardware. Let's say so you want to make a graphics card. Let's also say that you're only interested in playing quake3. What does it take to party like 1999? About 150 MHz on a 180nm process. And what does it cost to fab some 180nm chips? More than I've ever spent on all the computers I've ever written software with.
Re: Open Source hardware (Re: can't get vesa @ 1280x800 or nv)
On Sat, 5 Dec 2009 17:08:36 -0500 Ted Unangst wrote: More than I've ever spent on all the computers I've ever written software with. How much would that be? Ballpark. Doesn't seem like it would be very much. Seems like you're just hand-waving without real numbers. Wikipedia has a money-raised thermometer on their site from time-to-time and they're raising millions.
Re: Open Source hardware (Re: can't get vesa @ 1280x800 or nv)
On Sat, 5 Dec 2009 21:30:28 +0100 Matthieu Herrb wrote: On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 9:02 PM, rhubbell rhubb...@ihubbell.com wrote: Yes, I'd like to see some pointers also. I recall that there was discussion (might've been on linux kernel) a while ago about a partially-open video card. Why doesn't the community support that? You mean http://www.opengraphics.org ? What makes you say that? How did *you* contribute? Why did I say that? Let's take a poll on this list of how many people are using one of those cards? Or any list, anywhere. I have not contributed to it in anyway. But why is that relevant? Can you explain? And how did you contribute? I recall that price was a factor in lack of uptake. Seems to me that opensource is farsical if it runs on closesource hardware. So where's the opensource hardware? Seems like the new world order isn't going to allow that. The trend in hardware looks like a race to keep control. Seems like we are going to be paying for the hardware but not owning; instead leasing. Or am I behind the times and there's salvation from some beneficent hardware maker in Taiwan? Making hardware is a lot more difficult than writing software. So it takes more resources and more skills. This is probably why there aren't so many of them. You're saying the barrier to entry is too high? I'm not expert but I don't believe that is why. There are other barriers. I'd recommend you read the wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphics_hardware_and_FOSS I think I may have read that a while ago...I'll look.
Re: Open Source hardware (Re: can't get vesa @ 1280x800 or nv)
Come back and talk when you've bought one for yourself, and donated another to the project. KTHX HAND On 12/5/09, rhubbell rhubb...@ihubbell.com wrote: On Sat, 5 Dec 2009 17:08:36 -0500 Ted Unangst wrote: More than I've ever spent on all the computers I've ever written software with. How much would that be? Ballpark. Doesn't seem like it would be very much. Seems like you're just hand-waving without real numbers. Wikipedia has a money-raised thermometer on their site from time-to-time and they're raising millions. -- Sent from my mobile device http://www.glumbert.com/media/shift http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGvHNNOLnCk This officer's men seem to follow him merely out of idle curiosity. -- Sandhurst officer cadet evaluation. Securing an environment of Windows platforms from abuse - external or internal - is akin to trying to install sprinklers in a fireworks factory where smoking on the job is permitted. -- Gene Spafford learn french: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30v_g83VHK4
Re: Open Source hardware (Re: can't get vesa @ 1280x800 or nv)
blah blah blah go away troll On Sat, Dec 05, 2009 at 02:59:19PM -0800, rhubbell wrote: On Sat, 5 Dec 2009 21:30:28 +0100 Matthieu Herrb wrote: On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 9:02 PM, rhubbell rhubb...@ihubbell.com wrote: Yes, I'd like to see some pointers also. I recall that there was discussion (might've been on linux kernel) a while ago about a partially-open video card. Why doesn't the community support that? You mean http://www.opengraphics.org ? What makes you say that? How did *you* contribute? Why did I say that? Let's take a poll on this list of how many people are using one of those cards? Or any list, anywhere. I have not contributed to it in anyway. But why is that relevant? Can you explain? And how did you contribute? I recall that price was a factor in lack of uptake. Seems to me that opensource is farsical if it runs on closesource hardware. So where's the opensource hardware? Seems like the new world order isn't going to allow that. The trend in hardware looks like a race to keep control. Seems like we are going to be paying for the hardware but not owning; instead leasing. Or am I behind the times and there's salvation from some beneficent hardware maker in Taiwan? Making hardware is a lot more difficult than writing software. So it takes more resources and more skills. This is probably why there aren't so many of them. You're saying the barrier to entry is too high? I'm not expert but I don't believe that is why. There are other barriers. I'd recommend you read the wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphics_hardware_and_FOSS I think I may have read that a while ago...I'll look.
Re: Open Source hardware (Re: can't get vesa @ 1280x800 or nv)
On Sat, 5 Dec 2009 18:14:00 -0500 bofh wrote: Come back and talk when you've bought one for yourself, and donated another to the project. Gee, ok. What have you contributed to it? You don't want to converse. Fine by me.
Re: Open Source hardware (Re: can't get vesa @ 1280x800 or nv)
On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 6:54 PM, rhubbell rhubb...@ihubbell.com wrote: On Sat, 5 Dec 2009 18:14:00 -0500 bofh wrote: Come back and talk when you've bought one for yourself, and donated another to the project. Gee, ok. What have you contributed to it? You don't want to converse. Fine by me. You're a moron right? Since when I did I say I contributed to it? You're the one claiming it doesn't cost much. And yet, you didn't contribute. And you want to see it succeed. Seems that you like others to do the hard work, and you can just armchair quarterback right? -- http://www.glumbert.com/media/shift http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGvHNNOLnCk This officer's men seem to follow him merely out of idle curiosity. -- Sandhurst officer cadet evaluation. Securing an environment of Windows platforms from abuse - external or internal - is akin to trying to install sprinklers in a fireworks factory where smoking on the job is permitted. -- Gene Spafford learn french: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30v_g83VHK4
Re: Open Source hardware (Re: can't get vesa @ 1280x800 or nv)
On Sat, 5 Dec 2009 19:10:19 -0500 bofh wrote: On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 6:54 PM, rhubbell rhubb...@ihubbell.com wrote: On Sat, 5 Dec 2009 18:14:00 -0500 bofh wrote: Come back and talk when you've bought one for yourself, and donated another to the project. Gee, ok. What have you contributed to it? You don't want to converse. Fine by me. You're a moron right? Since when I did I say I contributed to it? You're the one claiming it doesn't cost much. And yet, you didn't contribute. And you want to see it succeed. Seems that you like others to do the hard work, and you can just armchair quarterback right? The sensitive type, eh?
Re: Open Source hardware (Re: can't get vesa @ 1280x800 or nv)
Another sensitive type. Guess there are always a few on every list. On Sat, 5 Dec 2009 19:17:14 -0600 Marco Peereboom wrote: fuck off troll On Sat, Dec 05, 2009 at 04:26:49PM -0800, rhubbell wrote: On Sat, 5 Dec 2009 19:10:19 -0500 bofh wrote: On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 6:54 PM, rhubbell rhubb...@ihubbell.com wrote: On Sat, 5 Dec 2009 18:14:00 -0500 bofh wrote: Come back and talk when you've bought one for yourself, and donated another to the project. Gee, ok. What have you contributed to it? You don't want to converse. Fine by me. You're a moron right? Since when I did I say I contributed to it? You're the one claiming it doesn't cost much. And yet, you didn't contribute. And you want to see it succeed. Seems that you like others to do the hard work, and you can just armchair quarterback right? The sensitive type, eh?
Re: Open Source hardware (Re: can't get vesa @ 1280x800 or nv)
rhubbell wrote: Another sensitive type. Guess there are always a few on every list. As distinguished from insensitive twerps like yourself.
Re: Open Source hardware (Re: can't get vesa @ 1280x800 or nv)
rhubbell wrote: Another sensitive type. Guess there are always a few on every list. It has nothing to do with sensitivity, we just have an aversion toward idiots. -Bryan.
Re: Open Source hardware (Re: can't get vesa @ 1280x800 or nv)
wow now I have point. You are like kid on sand. Look they have thermometer and you haven't :-P :-D You don't have even any respect for long time OpenBSD developers or users which know a LOT more then you. Just because you are unqualified user doesn't mean that you can shout around on everyone. And from your answers in this thread I can see that you haven't even small idea about how expensive is develop of new HW. You are like more and more newbies in Linux community. Give me everything now for free. I don't want to pay anything, you are all idiots without knowledge and if you don't want to give me something for free then I will shout on you a lot. Uh sorry. I know from professionals that I must be nice on people with similar problems because they need doctor. So please take my apology (:-D). On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 12:04 AM, rhubbell rhubb...@ihubbell.com wrote: On Sat, 5 Dec 2009 17:08:36 -0500 Ted Unangst wrote: More than I've ever spent on all the computers I've ever written software with. How much would that be? Ballpark. Doesn't seem like it would be very much. Seems like you're just hand-waving without real numbers. Wikipedia has a money-raised thermometer on their site from time-to-time and they're raising millions. -- http://www.openbsd.org/lyrics.html
