Re: startx vs xdm

[Jan Stary]

> Can you please elaborate on why LC_CTYPE
> is the one of the LC_* family to be set?
> Or does the current locale support involve
> anything else then CTYPE?

Aha: find /usr/share/locale

Re: startx vs xdm

[Jan Stary]

On Feb 19 08:53:15, s...@stsp.name wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 18, 2016 at 09:44:08PM +0100, Jan Stary wrote:
> > Probably not, because if I remove all my .x* files
> > and keep just the .Xdefaults -> .Xresources which
> > specifies the UTF8 locale for xterm, the same thing
> > happens in (the default) fvwm. Namely,
> > the xterm started by default has XTERM_LOCALE=C,
> > and every xterm started from fvwm's menu has XTERM_LOCALE=C,
> > but every xterm I start as `xterm` (from another xterm)
> > has XTERM_LOCALE=cs_CZ.UTF-8, as specified in.Xdefaults.
> > 
> > Why is that? Am I missing something obvious?
> > 
> > Jan
> > 
> 
> Why don't you just set LC_CTYPE in your environment as described here?
> http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq10.html#locales

I do. (Actually, LANG)

Only last night did I realize it's _this_ that makes them xterms UTF,
not the xterm-specific locale in my X settings (see below).

> Do you really want to set a separate UTF-8 flag for every application you use?
> I think per-application locale knobs are silly. They are legacy cruft added
> before somewhat standardized locale support was built into unix systems.
> I'm not surprised it doesn't work the way you expect. xterm needs LC_CTYPE
> set the environment when it calls setlocale(3) and/or whatever other things
> it does to set up its locale. I haven't looked at xterm code to track down
> why xrdb locale settings don't apply as you expect, and I'm not going to
> because you should really just be exporting LC_CTYPE in your xsession and
> be done with this.

That's exactly right.

Here is what I did, trying to find what's "wrong":

Set up a brand new user with nothing in his $HOME,
apart from ~/.Xdefaults -> ~/.Xresources which says

XTerm*utf8: true
XTerm*locale:   UTF-8

and ~/.xsession -> ~/.xinitrc which says

xrdb -load ~/.Xresources
cwm

An xterm of this user will not be UTF8,
whteher started after startx or from an xdm session,
from whichever menu or cmdline. On the other hand,
if the brand new user has nothing in his $HOME
except ~/.xsession which says

export LC_CTYPE="cs_CZ.UTF-8"
cwm

then his xterm (and anything else, for that matter),
will be UTF, as intended.

Thank you for the insight.

Can you please elaborate on why LC_CTYPE
is the one of the LC_* family to be set?
Or does the current locale support involve
anything else then CTYPE?

Jan

Re: startx vs xdm

[Stefan Sperling]

On Thu, Feb 18, 2016 at 09:44:08PM +0100, Jan Stary wrote:
> Probably not, because if I remove all my .x* files
> and keep just the .Xdefaults -> .Xresources which
> specifies the UTF8 locale for xterm, the same thing
> happens in (the default) fvwm. Namely,
> the xterm started by default has XTERM_LOCALE=C,
> and every xterm started from fvwm's menu has XTERM_LOCALE=C,
> but every xterm I start as `xterm` (from another xterm)
> has XTERM_LOCALE=cs_CZ.UTF-8, as specified in.Xdefaults.
> 
> Why is that? Am I missing something obvious?
> 
>   Jan
> 

Why don't you just set LC_CTYPE in your environment as described here?
http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq10.html#locales

Do you really want to set a separate UTF-8 flag for every application you use?
I think per-application locale knobs are silly. They are legacy cruft added
before somewhat standardized locale support was built into unix systems.
I'm not surprised it doesn't work the way you expect. xterm needs LC_CTYPE
set the environment when it calls setlocale(3) and/or whatever other things
it does to set up its locale. I haven't looked at xterm code to track down
why xrdb locale settings don't apply as you expect, and I'm not going to
because you should really just be exporting LC_CTYPE in your xsession and
be done with this.

Re: startx vs xdm

[mark hellewell]

On Fri, 19 Feb 2016 at 07:49 Jan Stary  wrote:

> Why is that? Am I missing something obvious?
>

What happens if you launch terminals using the `uxterm` shell script?

Mark

Jan

Re: startx vs xdm

[lists]

Thu, 18 Feb 2016 21:44:08 +0100 Jan Stary 
> > My .Xdefaults is a symlink to .Xresources
> > and .xsession is a symlink to .xinitrc.
>
> Why is that? Am I missing something obvious?

$ grep xrdb .xinitrc
[[ -f ~/.Xresources ]] && xrdb -merge ~/.Xresources
[[ -f ~/.Xdefaults ]] && xrdb -merge ~/.Xdefaults

$ man xrdb

-merge

This option indicates that the input should be merged and
lexicographically sorted with, instead of replacing, the
current contents of the specified properties.

Re: startx vs xdm

[Jan Stary]

> My .Xdefaults is a symlink to .Xresources
> and .xsession is a symlink to .xinitrc.
> 
> But that's not it - my .xsession (-> .xinitrc) _is_ processed,
> because cwm is launched, as opposed to the default fvwm.
> And my .Xresources (= .Xdefaults) _is_ loaded, because
> the xterms I start from the cmdline with `xterm`
> do have the UTF8 locale set. Also,
> 
>   $ env
>   [...]
>   XENVIRONMENT=/home/hans/.Xresources
> 
> > with no need for the `xrdb` command.
> 
> Thanks. Yes, even if I do not xrdb explicitly,
> the .Xdefauls (= .Xresources) gets loaded.
> 
> But the original problem remains: any xterm started with
> cwm's ctrl-alt-del reports XTERM_LOCALE=C in env(1),
> while an xterm started as `xterm` has XTERM_LOCALE=cs_CZ.UTF-8,
> as discated by "XTerm*locale: UTF-8" in .Xresources.
> 
> Is it a cwm thing after all?

Probably not, because if I remove all my .x* files
and keep just the .Xdefaults -> .Xresources which
specifies the UTF8 locale for xterm, the same thing
happens in (the default) fvwm. Namely,
the xterm started by default has XTERM_LOCALE=C,
and every xterm started from fvwm's menu has XTERM_LOCALE=C,
but every xterm I start as `xterm` (from another xterm)
has XTERM_LOCALE=cs_CZ.UTF-8, as specified in.Xdefaults.

Why is that? Am I missing something obvious?

Jan

Re: startx vs xdm

[Jan Stary]

On Feb 16 19:50:57, h...@stare.cz wrote:
> On Feb 16 11:49:58, erling.westen...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Tue, Feb 16, 2016 at 09:32:05AM +0100, Stefan Sperling wrote:
> > > On Tue, Feb 16, 2016 at 09:15:58AM +0100, Jan Stary wrote:
> > > > There seems to be a difference between an X session
> > > > initialized by startx(1) and one launched by xdm(1).
> > > > 
> > > > When I start an X session via startx, the settings
> > > > specified in ~/.Xresources seem to be honoured.
> > > > A session started via xdm(1) does _not_ honour
> > > > 
> > > > XTerm*utf8: true
> > > > XTerm*locale:   UTF-8
> > > > 
> > > > and every xterm I start in the running cwm(1)
> > > > with ctrl+alt+del has XTERM_LOCALE=C
> > > > 
> > > > On the other hand, an xterm I start with `xterm`
> > > > from an already running xterm has XTERM_LOCALE=cs_CZ.UTF-8
> > > > For an xdm(1) session, this is exactly the difference in env(1)
> > > > between a ctrl-alt-del started xterm and an `xterm`.
> > > > 
> > > > In a startx(1) session, the xterm started as ctrl-alt-del
> > > > already has XTERM_LOCALE=cs_CZ.UTF-8 as per ~/.Xresources
> > > > 
> > > > Is this expected? Is it due to a difference between
> > > > an xdm(1) session and a startx(1) session?
> > > > 
> > > > Jan
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > $ cat ~/.xinit:
> > > > 
> > > > #!/bin/sh
> > > > 
> > > > xset -b -c dpms 300 600 900 m 2 0 r rate 400 30 s blank s 120 60
> > > > xsetroot -solid black
> > > > xrdb ~/.Xresources
> > > 
> > > The above line calling xrdb makes your .Xresources file work.
> > > startx reads ~/.xinit while xdm reads ~/.xsession.
> > 
> > I believe that should read ~/.xinitrc according to startx(1)?
> 
> Yes.
> 
> > > Create a .xsession file which matches your .xinit (or use a symlink)
> > > and xdm should pick .Xresources up, too.
> 
> Thanks for the hint. However, having a ~/.xsession identical to ~/.xinitrc
> still leads to the same behaviour.
> 
> Note that even in a xdm(1) session I do get an UTF8 xterm
> IF I launch it from the command line. So the ~/.Xresources
> must be consulted at some point. It is just that the xterm
> started with cwm's ctrl-alt-del does have XTERM_LOCALE=C

On Feb 16 16:22:36, ji...@devio.us wrote:
> XDM fires up /etc/X11/xdm/Xsession, easy to read. One can even
> customize XDM and all other things in /etc/X11/xdm/xdm-config.
> 
> It should be `xrdb -load $file'.

-load is the default
(To be sure, adding it makes no difference.)


On Feb 18 02:28:35, mark.hellew...@gmail.com wrote:
> If you call the file .Xdefaults it will be used in both scenarios

My .Xdefaults is a symlink to .Xresources
and .xsession is a symlink to .xinitrc.

But that's not it - my .xsession (-> .xinitrc) _is_ processed,
because cwm is launched, as opposed to the default fvwm.
And my .Xresources (= .Xdefaults) _is_ loaded, because
the xterms I start from the cmdline with `xterm`
do have the UTF8 locale set. Also,

$ env
[...]
XENVIRONMENT=/home/hans/.Xresources

> with no need for the `xrdb` command.

Thanks. Yes, even if I do not xrdb explicitly,
the .Xdefauls (= .Xresources) gets loaded.

But the original problem remains: any xterm started with
cwm's ctrl-alt-del reports XTERM_LOCALE=C in env(1),
while an xterm started as `xterm` has XTERM_LOCALE=cs_CZ.UTF-8,
as discated by "XTerm*locale: UTF-8" in .Xresources.

Is it a cwm thing after all?


Jan

Re: startx vs xdm

[mark hellewell]

If you call the file .Xdefaults it will be used in both scenarios
described, with no need for the `xrdb` command.

On Wed, 17 Feb 2016 at 08:47 Jiri B  wrote:

> XDM fires up /etc/X11/xdm/Xsession, easy to read. One can even
> customize XDM and all other things in /etc/X11/xdm/xdm-config.
>
> It should be `xrdb -load $file'.
>
> j.

Re: startx vs xdm

[Jiri B]

XDM fires up /etc/X11/xdm/Xsession, easy to read. One can even
customize XDM and all other things in /etc/X11/xdm/xdm-config.

It should be `xrdb -load $file'.

j.

Re: startx vs xdm

[Jan Stary]

On Feb 16 11:49:58, erling.westen...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 16, 2016 at 09:32:05AM +0100, Stefan Sperling wrote:
> > On Tue, Feb 16, 2016 at 09:15:58AM +0100, Jan Stary wrote:
> > > There seems to be a difference between an X session
> > > initialized by startx(1) and one launched by xdm(1).
> > > 
> > > When I start an X session via startx, the settings
> > > specified in ~/.Xresources seem to be honoured.
> > > A session started via xdm(1) does _not_ honour
> > > 
> > >   XTerm*utf8: true
> > >   XTerm*locale:   UTF-8
> > > 
> > > and every xterm I start in the running cwm(1)
> > > with ctrl+alt+del has XTERM_LOCALE=C
> > > 
> > > On the other hand, an xterm I start with `xterm`
> > > from an already running xterm has XTERM_LOCALE=cs_CZ.UTF-8
> > > For an xdm(1) session, this is exactly the difference in env(1)
> > > between a ctrl-alt-del started xterm and an `xterm`.
> > > 
> > > In a startx(1) session, the xterm started as ctrl-alt-del
> > > already has XTERM_LOCALE=cs_CZ.UTF-8 as per ~/.Xresources
> > > 
> > > Is this expected? Is it due to a difference between
> > > an xdm(1) session and a startx(1) session?
> > > 
> > >   Jan
> > > 
> > > 
> > > $ cat ~/.xinit:
> > > 
> > > #!/bin/sh
> > > 
> > > xset -b -c dpms 300 600 900 m 2 0 r rate 400 30 s blank s 120 60
> > > xsetroot -solid black
> > > xrdb ~/.Xresources
> > 
> > The above line calling xrdb makes your .Xresources file work.
> > startx reads ~/.xinit while xdm reads ~/.xsession.
> 
> I believe that should read ~/.xinitrc according to startx(1)?

Yes.

> > Create a .xsession file which matches your .xinit (or use a symlink)
> > and xdm should pick .Xresources up, too.

Thanks for the hint. However, having a ~/.xsession identical to ~/.xinitrc
still leads to the same behaviour.

Note that even in a xdm(1) session I do get an UTF8 xterm
IF I launch it from the command line. So the ~/.Xresources
must be consulted at some point. It is just that the xterm
started with cwm's ctrl-alt-del does have XTERM_LOCALE=C

Jan

> > > setxkbmap -layout "us,cz" -option "grp:shifts_toggle,grp_led:scroll"
> > > xmodmap ~/.xmodmaprc
> > > cwm

Re: startx vs xdm

[Erling Westenvik]

On Tue, Feb 16, 2016 at 09:32:05AM +0100, Stefan Sperling wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 16, 2016 at 09:15:58AM +0100, Jan Stary wrote:
> > There seems to be a difference between an X session
> > initialized by startx(1) and one launched by xdm(1).
> > 
> > When I start an X session via startx, the settings
> > specified in ~/.Xresources seem to be honoured.
> > A session started via xdm(1) does _not_ honour
> > 
> > XTerm*utf8: true
> > XTerm*locale:   UTF-8
> > 
> > and every xterm I start in the running cwm(1)
> > with ctrl+alt+del has XTERM_LOCALE=C
> > 
> > On the other hand, an xterm I start with `xterm`
> > from an already running xterm has XTERM_LOCALE=cs_CZ.UTF-8
> > For an xdm(1) session, this is exactly the difference in env(1)
> > between a ctrl-alt-del started xterm and an `xterm`.
> > 
> > In a startx(1) session, the xterm started as ctrl-alt-del
> > already has XTERM_LOCALE=cs_CZ.UTF-8 as per ~/.Xresources
> > 
> > Is this expected? Is it due to a difference between
> > an xdm(1) session and a startx(1) session?
> > 
> > Jan
> > 
> > 
> > $ cat ~/.xinit:
> > 
> > #!/bin/sh
> > 
> > xset -b -c dpms 300 600 900 m 2 0 r rate 400 30 s blank s 120 60
> > xsetroot -solid black
> > xrdb ~/.Xresources
> 
> The above line calling xrdb makes your .Xresources file work.
> startx reads ~/.xinit while xdm reads ~/.xsession.

I believe that should read ~/.xinitrc according to startx(1)?
   ^^
> Create a .xsession file which matches your .xinit (or use a symlink)
> and xdm should pick .Xresources up, too.
> 
> > setxkbmap -layout "us,cz" -option "grp:shifts_toggle,grp_led:scroll"
> > xmodmap ~/.xmodmaprc
> > cwm

Re: startx vs xdm

[Stefan Sperling]

On Tue, Feb 16, 2016 at 09:15:58AM +0100, Jan Stary wrote:
> There seems to be a difference between an X session
> initialized by startx(1) and one launched by xdm(1).
> 
> When I start an X session via startx, the settings
> specified in ~/.Xresources seem to be honoured.
> A session started via xdm(1) does _not_ honour
> 
>   XTerm*utf8: true
>   XTerm*locale:   UTF-8
> 
> and every xterm I start in the running cwm(1)
> with ctrl+alt+del has XTERM_LOCALE=C
> 
> On the other hand, an xterm I start with `xterm`
> from an already running xterm has XTERM_LOCALE=cs_CZ.UTF-8
> For an xdm(1) session, this is exactly the difference in env(1)
> between a ctrl-alt-del started xterm and an `xterm`.
> 
> In a startx(1) session, the xterm started as ctrl-alt-del
> already has XTERM_LOCALE=cs_CZ.UTF-8 as per ~/.Xresources
> 
> Is this expected? Is it due to a difference between
> an xdm(1) session and a startx(1) session?
> 
>   Jan
> 
> 
> $ cat ~/.xinit:
> 
> #!/bin/sh
> 
> xset -b -c dpms 300 600 900 m 2 0 r rate 400 30 s blank s 120 60
> xsetroot -solid black
> xrdb ~/.Xresources

The above line calling xrdb makes your .Xresources file work.

startx reads ~/.xinit while xdm reads ~/.xsession.
Create a .xsession file which matches your .xinit (or use a symlink)
and xdm should pick .Xresources up, too.

> setxkbmap -layout "us,cz" -option "grp:shifts_toggle,grp_led:scroll"
> xmodmap ~/.xmodmaprc
> cwm