Re: [Mpls] Stormwatergate, con't.-The Fraud and Denial Continues
Nick Coleman puts a face on the tragedy of an elected group of politicians who seem incapable of either managing the City, and in addition is incapable of fixing their mistakes when slapped in the face with them. Elected people who tout their Executive Skills and management ability, yet whose management tool of choice is denial. I know for a fact that the Mayor, his staff, and several Council Members read this MPLS. Issue Forum daily, and also read the StarTribune. So it CANNOT be possible that they can be unaware of this issue and their stupid mistake. I exposed the StormWatergate and David Brauer named it several weeks ago. I have even approached a couple of these executives and complained personally. So the question is, why are they not fixing it? In my community hundreds of poor homeowners are being defrauded and stolen from by the City, just as Jan Gustafson is. They, like Jan, are being told to PROVE IT before we will stop stealing from you. Elderly, and the trusting, and in some cases less educated people are being asked to develop and present a legal case (including a to-scale site plan of their property) to stop the theft. This is a joke! How many people even in more affluent and educated areas draw their own to scale, detailed, site plans? I know what the cost to have an architect or surveyor do the task is, does the Mayor? Perhaps each person being stolen from needs to file a small-claims case against the City of Minneapolis? It would be cheaper, and in court they would only need their waterbill, a witness, and a rough drawing to win. The truly scary thing about this theft and new tax being disguised as an Environmentally Sensitive policy, is that the elected leadership is so politically arrogant, or so stupid that they are incapable of changing a mistake when slapped repeatedly in the face with it. Which description best fits? I will allow the readers to judge. One would think that this leadership would be smart enough to at least announce that they were addressing the problem and would make the necessary adjustments to make it more equitable. But NO, they ignore the problem and hope it will go away. Perhaps they will be able to continue to rob the poorest neighborhood residents to subsidize the more wealthy voters? By the way Nick Coleman, if you want dozens of other examples to write about just give me a call. The inner-city is full of them. One Issues member wrote me off line asking if we could find a law firm that would do a Class Action Suit on behalf of those being cheated. Probably, but does it really take that? Is it really needed? I assume a 1/3 contingency-fee of several million dollars in overcharges would make it worthwhile for a law firm. Probably even get punitive damages, since the misappropriation continued even after notice of fraud was given. Perhaps we need Attorney General Hatch to take some action on behalf of the Minneapolis consumers being defrauded by the City of Minneapolis, a Minnesota Corporation? Possibly some of us should call his office? He certainly has a record of going after such Minnesota corporations in the area of health care. Good executives fix their problem when confronted by them. Good executives do not need to be forced to do the right thing for their customers by a court of law. Good executives think of Communication as listening to their customers, not hiring a Communication Specialist to spin doctor and control any information coming out of the corporation. Well, perhaps the City Executives are modeling themselves upon executives of corporations such as Enron? My little old grandmother use to say something that Tommy Lee Jones said when viewing the train-wreck. I repeat it when viewing our political train-wreck, My, My, My! What a mess! Jim Graham, Sitting the porch steps in Ventura Village REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Stormwatergate, con't.-The Fraud and Denial Continues
I don't find my self agreeing with Mr. Graham a whole lot on this list, but he does have a point regarding the new stormwater fees. It makes absolutely no sense that a duplex on the same size lot with the same amount of impervious surface as my single family home is paying $25.00 more a month while I'm saving approximately $2.00 to $3.00 a month. Number of persons living on a lot has nothing to do with the amount of water going into the storm water drainage system. I am guessing many of the 4-plexes that are on small 5,000 square foot lots are experiencing similar large increases. I would strongly encourage the City Council to look at the issue of how duplexes and small multi-family units are being impacted. Coleman's article also highlighted another absurdity with stormwatergate and that is the information on how to reduce the amount of drainage from your lot. The information is appropriate for a developer of a new subdivision or a large lot apartment building but I'm sorry, an owner of a single family home, duplex or fourplex on a 5,000 square foot lot with best green intentions is not going to be constructing rain gardens, drainage swales, green roofs, or any of the other suggestions listed. To think otherwise is just plain silliness. Dean E. Carlson Ward 10, East Harriet - Original Message - From: gemgram [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Friday, April 22, 2005 7:43 am Subject: Re: [Mpls] Stormwatergate, con't.-The Fraud and Denial Continues Nick Coleman puts a face on the tragedy of an elected group of politicians who seem incapable of either managing the City, and in addition is incapable of fixing their mistakes when slapped in the face with them. Elected people who tout their Executive Skills and management ability, yet whose management tool of choice is denial. I know for a fact that the Mayor, his staff, and several Council Members read this MPLS. Issue Forum daily, and also read the StarTribune. So it CANNOT be possible that they can be unaware of this issue and their stupid mistake. I exposed the StormWatergate and David Brauer named it several weeks ago. I have even approached a couple of these executives and complained personally. So the question is, why are they not fixing it? In my community hundreds of poor homeowners are being defrauded and stolen from by the City, just as Jan Gustafson is. They, like Jan, are being told to PROVE IT before we will stop stealing from you. Elderly, and the trusting, and in some cases less educated people are being asked to develop and present a legal case (including a to-scale site plan of their property) to stop the theft. This is a joke! How many people even in more affluent and educated areas draw their own to scale, detailed, site plans? I know what the cost to have an architect or surveyor do the task is, does the Mayor? Perhaps each person being stolen from needs to file a small- claims case against the City of Minneapolis? It would be cheaper, and in court they would only need their waterbill, a witness, and a rough drawing to win. The truly scary thing about this theft and new tax being disguised as an Environmentally Sensitive policy, is that the elected leadership is so politically arrogant, or so stupid that they are incapable of changing a mistake when slapped repeatedly in the face with it. Which description best fits? I will allow the readers to judge. One would think that this leadership would be smart enough to at least announce that they were addressing the problem and would make the necessary adjustments to make it more equitable. But NO, they ignore the problem and hope it will go away. Perhaps they will be able to continue to rob the poorest neighborhood residents to subsidize the more wealthy voters? By the way Nick Coleman, if you want dozens of other examples to write about just give me a call. The inner-city is full of them. One Issues member wrote me off line asking if we could find a law firm that would do a Class Action Suit on behalf of those being cheated. Probably, but does it really take that? Is it really needed? I assume a 1/3 contingency-fee of several million dollars in overcharges would make it worthwhile for a law firm. Probably even get punitive damages, since the misappropriation continued even after notice of fraud was given. Perhaps we need Attorney General Hatch to take some action on behalf of the Minneapolis consumers being defrauded by the City of Minneapolis, a Minnesota Corporation? Possibly some of us should call his office? He certainly has a record of going after such Minnesota corporations in the area of health care. Good executives fix their problem when confronted by them. Good executives do not need to be forced to do the right thing for their customers by a court of law. Good executives think
Re: [Mpls] Stormwatergate, con't.-The Fraud and Denial Continues
The article still reads as another story on how the rich are getting richer and sticking it to the poor. for example: It is lovely to read politicians bragging that our taxes aren't going up. But read the fine print: It's just the wealthiest whose taxes aren't going up. The widows are paying through the nose. from the article: Gustafson's yard is a normal lot, 50 by 125 feet. The city says that 4,800 of her 6,250 square feet are impervious to rainwater. Gustafson, who has mapped her lot carefully, says the true number is only 2,800 square feet even if the city over estimated by 2000 sqft, that property is still in the high range so it wouldn't make a difference, would it? They way i see it, the storm water fee collected was not very accurate when tied to how much water you used. so for years and years, the high water user was footing the bill for those who used little water. the more i look at this, the more I see it as a change to make the collection of storm water runoff accurate to the actual runoff your property causes. Nick Coleman wants us to believe that the rich are getting off at the expense of church parking lots and the elderly living in duplexes. I am not sure this is true but i do wonder why duplexes are at a higher rate. John Harris webber-camden, single homowner with a smaller lot who uses little water and whose utility bill went up nearly $8 a month. REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Stormwatergate, con't.-The Fraud and Denial Continues
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dean Carlson writes: an owner of a single family home, duplex or fourplex on a 5,000 square foot lot with best green intentions is not going to be constructing rain gardens, drainage swales, green roofs, or any of the other suggestions listed. To think otherwise is just plain silliness. As the owner of a 4,740sq.ft. lot, I saved the announcements for the classes on rain gardens. I thought it was pretty kewl and would rather a rain barrel than a wet basement. But now that you brought it up, I'm absolutely sure I have got to have a drainage swale. I don't know what it is, but with a word like swale, I'm sure I need one, and have probably suffered needlessly without one these seven years. For me a green roof is silly, I'm height shy. I don't even go up inside my own attic to look out the window. Then again, they didn't say institute all their suggestions. WizardMarks, Central Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Stormwatergate, con't.-The Fraud and Denial Continues
I would like to tell you my experience with the city on this. I posted here right after my first bill about the fact that my water bill went up by $20+, a 60% increase. I called the city and, after some discussion, discovered that my home was shown as a duplex, something that hasn't been true for four years. The city corrected their records (at least they said they have--I won't know until my next bill). It didn't take detailed site plans, only a statement by me that I had looked up the foundation footprint on their web site and measured my garage and driveway. From this, I could tell them the total impervious surface. This is all it took. I do have ONE complaint: They would not let me correct the bill and pay the lesser charge (the city automatically assesses a penalty for not fully paying the bill). I didn't like it (and I know that for some people, paying that extra $20 would be more of a hardship than it is for me), but I paid it. What was really frustrating was to get the next bill four weeks later and to see the wrong total on it, too. When I called about this, I learned that it takes 45 days for the corrections to show up on your bill and, yes, I must pay the extra $20 a second month. I was assured that my water bill would be credited with the excess I paid, so I should get a very low water bill next time. I didn't find the city to be unreasonable. Perhaps it was because I had done my homework and already had the numbers for them, or perhaps I called early enough in this fiasco that they had not yet been inundated with calls. Whatever the reason, my experience was a relatively good one. I do think the city should look into fixing a system that penalizes people for paying the correct amount when an error is made. It should be a simple matter to credit the penalty as well as the erroneous amount when a correct is made. Dottie Titus, Jordan REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Stormwatergate, con't.-The Fraud and Denial Continues
Jim Graham writes: In my community hundreds of poor homeowners are being defrauded and stolen from by the City, just as Jan Gustafson is. They, like Jan, are being told to PROVE IT before we will stop stealing from you. Elderly, and the trusting, and in some cases less educated people are being asked to develop and present a legal case (including a to-scale site plan of their property) to stop the theft. This is a joke! How many people even in more affluent and educated areas draw their own to scale, detailed, site plans? I know what the cost to have an architect or surveyor do the task is, does the Mayor? Perhaps each person being stolen from needs to file a small-claims case against the City of Minneapolis? It would be cheaper, and in court they would only need their waterbill, a witness, and a rough drawing to win. Jim incorrectly assumes that the only way to have your bill reduces is to hire an architect or surveyor. There are actually three ways and only 1 requires a landscape architect or engineer. First, there is the dispute process which requires a to-scale site drawing (i.e. a rough drawing). This just means get out your tape measure and graph paper. Anyone with basic math skills can do this. This was established to correct the inevitable errors with the city's estimating impervious surfaces on each parcel. Second, there is the water quality credit which is awarded for projects such as rain gardens and the like. This requires some gardening or other skills and a bit more math (geometry) to draw the site map, but still DOES NOT require an architect or engineer. This is the credit designed for residencial properties. Only the third method for having your bill reduces, the stormwater quantity credit, requires the certification of a landscape architect or engineer for the site plan. This credit is designed for businesses and large commerical sites. These property owners have huge fee increases ($10,000+). For them, it is affordable to install major stormwater control devices and hire the professional to design and build the systems. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the stormwater utility is perfect - far from it. There are clearly problems. Dean E. Carlson writes: ... The information is appropriate for a developer of a new subdivision or a large lot apartment building but I'm sorry, an owner of a single family home, duplex or fourplex on a 5,000 square foot lot with best green intentions is not going to be constructing rain gardens, drainage swales, green roofs, or any of the other suggestions listed. To think otherwise is just plain silliness. I am the owner of a duplex on a 5044 square foot lot. I am building a rain garden, installing rain barrels, and considering installing an infiltration pit (a.k.a. French drain) and pervious pavers with stormwater storage space below. My sister (mpls resident) is installing a rain garden and native plantings on her property. I have numerous neighbors on my block with rain barrels and at least one will be installing a rain garden this summer. A nearby neighbor already has an infiltration pit. There are dozens of examples of rain gardens in the greater longfellow community, and hundreds of residences with rain barrels. I know of minneapolis residential lots that already have pervious pavers with stormwater storage below, I know of one green-roof garage in the city and we will be installing another this summer in Seward. There are hundreds if not thousands of responsible property owners in Minneapolis that are or will be establishing stormwater controls on their residential property. To think otherwise is just plain out of touch. For the record, my bill has increased under the stormwater utility ($8-10 per month - not a huge amount I admit). I would be very interested to hear from people on the list constructive suggestions as to how the city could improve the fee that would still collects the necessary amount of money, that is manageable by the limited city staff, affordable to implement, and politically realistic. Any thoughts? Randall Cutting Seward REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Stormwatergate, con't.-The Fraud and Denial Continues
Dean Carlson writes: Coleman's article also highlighted another absurdity with stormwatergate and that is the information on how to reduce the amount of drainage from your lot. The information is appropriate for a developer of a new subdivision or a large lot apartment building but I'm sorry, an owner of a single family home, duplex or fourplex on a 5,000 square foot lot with best green intentions is not going to be constructing rain gardens, drainage swales, green roofs, or any of the other suggestions listed. To think otherwise is just plain silliness. I know that old saw the road to hell is paved with good intentions, so I'm not going to argue that folks did not screw up in writing and implementing the storm water additions to our water/sewer/solid waste billing system; but to say residents/property owners are not capable of putting in rain gardens, drainage swales, green roofs, or any of the other suggestions listed really is silliness or more correctly, ignorance. All the home improvement chains sell cheap systems to capture and use run off from roof gutters in landscaping. It may be beyond the Colemans, Carlsons, and Grahams of the world; but a rain garden can be made by simply digging a hole at a place in a yard where water pools and mulching it (you may want to go further for aesthetic reasons). Retaining storm water is an important way of limiting the major capital expenditures involved in controlling it without folks doing something about it on their own. Why should we pay for a major sewer project that would be unnecessary if individual properties could retain a small amount of storm water run off for a short time and make our present system adequate for the job? I suppose these folks also think that energy conservation to limit power plant construction is a bad idea too? The notion that we are not responsible for controlling storm run off, individually or as a city, is pretty silly. As for Jim Graham's and Nick Coleman's screeds, I read them all and find them factually inaccurate and full of false bravado on a regular basis. Is it unreasonable for senior citizens to have problems keeping a house up? Heck, I have sometimes have problems keeping my house up; I'm giving serious thought to moving into different sorts of digs. The mayor's office screwed up this well intended new billing system, so vote'm out in November if this is a big deal for ya; but don't tell me that the idea wasn't the most economical way of approaching the problem of handling storm water run off beyond the peak capacity of our sewer systems. Don't tell me the average property owner is incapable of digging a few holes or installing barrels under gutter downspouts. The thing to do is to help those who need help and fine tune this new system until it works properly. Belly aching from our geezer crowd may be a part of all that, but don't even pretend it is anything else but that. Bill Kahn Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
