Re: 5G roadblock: labor

On 1/Jan/20 16:29, jdambro...@gmail.com wrote: > Given the deployment of Wi-Fi into so many different applications - your > statement that 5G is to "replace" WiFi seems overly ambitious. Perhaps > preventing WiFi from further penetration is a better way to look at it? Wi-fi is only growing.

Re: 5G roadblock: labor

On 1/Jan/20 16:22, William Allen Simpson wrote: > This thread has devolved into "Why 5G"? > > A lot of folks are missing the bigger picture. > > 5G is not for better voice calls.  AFAICT, it won't help voice at all. > > 5G is not for better integration with WiFi or IP data.  5G is to >

Re: 5G roadblock: labor

On 1/Jan/20 08:30, Mark Milhollan wrote: >   > > Actually you went on to say that future innovations shouldn't exist > because that's just crass consumerism, and that we should be satisfied > with (in particular) HDMI instead of desiring better -- sorry, people > will want better, e.g., the

Re: 5G roadblock: labor

- On Dec 30, 2019, at 9:16 PM, Brian J. Murrell br...@interlinx.bc.ca wrote: Hi, > On Mon, 2019-12-30 at 16:52 -0800, Sabri Berisha wrote: >> >> Who needs more than 640Kb of memory? >> >> We don't know what the future holds. This is an interesting read, >> featuring 5g to perform a

Re: 5G roadblock: labor

> The primary purpose seems to be barriers to entry and competition. I could have told you that when I started a pirate FM radio station at 10. About limiting reach. There are valid RF safety concerns, but that could be solved via other less draconian regulatory procedures. That said, 10

Re: 5G roadblock: labor

gt; Mike Hammett > Intelligent Computing Solutions > http://www.ics-il.com <http://www.ics-il.com/> > > Midwest-IX > http://www.midwest-ix.com <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> > > From: "Brandon Butterworth" > To: jdambro...@gmail.com > Cc: "North Amer

Re: 5G roadblock: labor

st-IX > http://www.midwest-ix.com > > > *From: *"Brandon Butterworth" > *To: *jdambro...@gmail.com > *Cc: *"North American Network Operators Group" > *Sent: *Wednesday, January 1, 2020 9:35:15

Re: 5G roadblock: labor

http://www.midwest-ix.com - Original Message - From: "Brandon Butterworth" To: jdambro...@gmail.com Cc: "North American Network Operators Group" Sent: Wednesday, January 1, 2020 9:35:15 AM Subject: Re: 5G roadblock: labor On Wed Jan 01, 2020 at 09:29

Re: 5G roadblock: labor

On 1/1/20 10:35 AM, Brandon Butterworth wrote: On Wed Jan 01, 2020 at 09:29:20AM -0500, jdambro...@gmail.com wrote: Given the deployment of Wi-Fi into so many different applications - your statement that 5G is to "replace" WiFi seems overly ambitious We might think that but it is serious.

Re: 5G roadblock: labor

On 31/Dec/19 16:10, Mike Hammett wrote: > I would still find it hard to believe you would need that kind of > speed, today, in any reasonable situation. Also, today's > infrastructure can more than handle that in most places. Where it > can't, 5G isn't going to be there for a very long time or

Re: 5G roadblock: labor

On 31/Dec/19 02:55, Ca By wrote: > > > > > Vendors are not interested in reducing costs to network operators, in > general. They may have replaced NPUs with x86 to reduce their own > costs I was just talking to some friends about this today, over a beer and some meat. We suffer the same

Re: 5G roadblock: labor

On Wed Jan 01, 2020 at 09:29:20AM -0500, jdambro...@gmail.com wrote: > Given the deployment of Wi-Fi into so many different applications > - your statement that 5G is to "replace" WiFi seems overly ambitious We might think that but it is serious. They want to own it all and there is a small cabal

RE: 5G roadblock: labor

en Simpson Sent: Wednesday, January 1, 2020 9:23 AM To: North American Network Operators Group Subject: Re: 5G roadblock: labor This thread has devolved into "Why 5G"? A lot of folks are missing the bigger picture. 5G is not for better voice calls. AFAICT, it won't help voice at all.

Re: 5G roadblock: labor

This thread has devolved into "Why 5G"? A lot of folks are missing the bigger picture. 5G is not for better voice calls. AFAICT, it won't help voice at all. 5G is not for better integration with WiFi or IP data. 5G is to *replace* WiFi, and FTTH, and ISPs, and WISPs, and bring all data back

Re: 5G roadblock: labor

On 31/Dec/19 00:46, Brandon Martin wrote: > > My understanding is that VoLTE is signaled using SIP. SIP/IMS. Mark.

Re: 5G roadblock: labor

On 31/Dec/19 00:42, Michael Thomas wrote: > > > > Oh, I didn't know that. Seems like it's a relatively new thing. Seems > like they went to a lot of trouble to essentially do what voip does. > Or maybe not? I've been poking around trying figure out what's going > on under the hood with wifi

Re: 5G roadblock: labor

On 30/Dec/19 23:39, Brandon Martin wrote: > > In theory, this is what "Hotspot 2.0" is designed to solve.  You > authenticate to the ESSID using your mobile carrier credentials, and > the resulting connection backhauls over an Internet tunnel to your > carrier who can handle the

Re: 5G roadblock: labor

On Mon, 30 Dec 2019, Brian J. Murrell wrote: I'm not saying that maybe one day we won't need 25Mb/s to a hand-held device, but hologram telephone calling, Netflixing and even video calling, are not the use-cases, IMHO. Actually you went on to say that future innovations shouldn't exist

Re: 5G roadblock: labor

://www.ics-il.com Midwest-IX http://www.midwest-ix.com - Original Message - From: "Brandon Butterworth" To: "Mike Hammett" Cc: "Shane Ronan" , "nanog" Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2019 9:29:30 AM Subject: Re: 5G roadblock: labor On Tue Dec 31

Re: 5G roadblock: labor

On Tue Dec 31, 2019 at 08:10:20AM -0600, Mike Hammett wrote: > I would still find it hard to believe you would need that kind > of speed, today, in any reasonable situation. Who said it's all for you? Marketing may tell you it is to get you to buy but it's really for everyone else. In some places

Re: 5G roadblock: labor

Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest-IX http://www.midwest-ix.com - Original Message - From: sro...@ronan-online.com To: "Mike Hammett" Cc: "Shane Ronan" , "Sabri Berisha" , "nanog" Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2019 8:14:16 AM Su

Re: 5G roadblock: labor

Midwest-IX http://www.midwest-ix.com - Original Message - From: "Shane Ronan" To: "Mike Hammett" Cc: "Sabri Berisha" , "nanog" Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2019 8:02:08 AM Subject: Re: 5G roadblock: labor Phones aren't the o

Re: 5G roadblock: labor

ions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest-IX http://www.midwest-ix.com - Original Message - From: "Sabri Berisha" To: "Brian J. Murrell" Cc: "nanog" Sent: Monday, December 30, 2019 6:52:55 PM Subject: Re: 5G roadblock: labor - On Dec 30

Re: 5G roadblock: labor

people on this. Would like to > better understand this as we start to look beyond 400GbE - as bandwidth > related to 5G is frequently brought up. > > -Original Message- > From: NANOG On Behalf Of Matt Hoppes > Sent: Monday, December 30, 2019 9:24 AM > To: Mark Tinka &

Re: 5G roadblock: labor

On Mon, 2019-12-30 at 16:52 -0800, Sabri Berisha wrote: > > Who needs more than 640Kb of memory? > > We don't know what the future holds. This is an interesting read, > featuring 5g to perform a "hologram" phone call: > https://www.bbc.com/news/business-45009458 While I appreciate that this is

Re: 5G roadblock: labor

On 12/30/19 4:48 PM, Shane Ronan wrote: VoWIFI from your cell phone is essentially the same thing, except your phone has to build a tunnel to the providers EPC via an SGW because of the untrusted connectivity. Yeah, I got the IPsec part right away. I guess they figure once it's in an

RE: 5G roadblock: labor

>> It'd be nice to see what benefits 5g really has for carriers and >> consumers/users... It looks, to me, like a bunch of the 5g hype is >> really: "uhm, we need to sell these carriers on the G++ ... spin up >> the hype machine about speed!" never mind the cost to deploy, range of >>

Re: 5G roadblock: labor

On Mon, Dec 30, 2019 at 3:51 PM Christopher Morrow wrote: > Oh good :) someone coaxed cameron out of the holiday keg :) > I can only take reading how others imagine it may work for so long > On Mon, Dec 30, 2019 at 6:32 PM Ca By wrote: > > > > > > > > On Mon, Dec 30, 2019 at 2:41 PM

Re: 5G roadblock: labor

- On Dec 30, 2019, at 12:54 PM, Brian J. Murrell br...@interlinx.bc.ca wrote: > Who needs 25mbits to their phone? Who needs more than 640Kb of memory? We don't know what the future holds. This is an interesting read, featuring 5g to perform a "hologram" phone call:

Re: 5G roadblock: labor

On 12/30/19 4:41 PM, Shane Ronan wrote: Look up VoLTE. Yeah I did, and confirmed it's just SIP+RTP over IP.  Which is why it's so frustratingly hard to find the same simple diagram or whatever for vowifi. Mike On Mon, Dec 30, 2019, 7:39 PM Michael Thomas >

Re: 5G roadblock: labor

On 12/30/19 4:19 PM, Brandon Martin wrote: I really don't want to go diving down the 3GPP document hole... Yeah, no kidding. It's like acronym soup. I've been trying all afternoon to figure out vowifi and am now pretty certain that it's just SIP signaling over IP. But it's been really

Re: 5G roadblock: labor

https://lmgtfy.com/?q=5G+NR - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest-IX http://www.midwest-ix.com - Original Message - From: "Brandon Martin" To: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Monday, December 30, 2019 6:19:06 PM Subject: Re: 5G

Re: 5G roadblock: labor

On 12/30/19 6:31 PM, Ca By wrote: > is is still a physics thing. Most purest will says 5G = new radio (NR). NR > can run in any band. And, the distance is a function of the band. Tmobile is > big on 600mhz NR, Sprint is big on 2500mhz NR and VZW has 28ghz NR.  Is/are there defined standard(s)

Re: 5G roadblock: labor

anog list" Sent: Monday, December 30, 2019 4:39:23 PM Subject: Re: 5G roadblock: labor On Mon, Dec 30, 2019 at 4:11 PM Brian J. Murrell wrote: > > On Mon, 2019-12-30 at 09:50 -0500, Shane Ronan wrote: > > > > Also, keep in mind that 10 years ago, you didn't know you wo

Re: 5G roadblock: labor

Oh good :) someone coaxed cameron out of the holiday keg :) On Mon, Dec 30, 2019 at 6:32 PM Ca By wrote: > > > > On Mon, Dec 30, 2019 at 2:41 PM Christopher Morrow > wrote: >> >> On Mon, Dec 30, 2019 at 4:11 PM Brian J. Murrell >> wrote: >> > >> > On Mon, 2019-12-30 at 09:50 -0500, Shane

Re: 5G roadblock: labor

On 12/30/19 3:34 PM, Christopher Morrow wrote: On Mon, Dec 30, 2019 at 6:09 PM Michael Thomas wrote: On 12/30/19 2:46 PM, Brandon Martin wrote: On 12/30/19 5:42 PM, Michael Thomas wrote: Oh, I didn't know that. Seems like it's a relatively new thing. Seems like they went to a lot of

[OFF-TOPIC detour] Re: 5G roadblock: labor

Shane Ronan > > Other 5G benefits: Beam forming, network slicing, reduced latency > > and support for UE desification, just to name a few. Mildly funny thing: I just spent ten minutes trying to figure out what "desification" was, before realising it was "densification" misspelled. Was not helped

Re: 5G roadblock: labor

On Mon, Dec 30, 2019 at 6:09 PM Michael Thomas wrote: > > > On 12/30/19 2:46 PM, Brandon Martin wrote: > > On 12/30/19 5:42 PM, Michael Thomas wrote: > >> Oh, I didn't know that. Seems like it's a relatively new thing. Seems > >> like they went to a lot of trouble to essentially do what voip

Re: 5G roadblock: labor

On Mon, Dec 30, 2019 at 2:41 PM Christopher Morrow wrote: > On Mon, Dec 30, 2019 at 4:11 PM Brian J. Murrell > wrote: > > > > On Mon, 2019-12-30 at 09:50 -0500, Shane Ronan wrote: > > > > > > Also, keep in mind that 10 years ago, you didn't know you would want > > > or > > > need 25mbits to

Re: 5G roadblock: labor

On 12/30/19 2:46 PM, Brandon Martin wrote: On 12/30/19 5:42 PM, Michael Thomas wrote: Oh, I didn't know that. Seems like it's a relatively new thing. Seems like they went to a lot of trouble to essentially do what voip does. Or maybe not? I've been poking around trying figure out what's

Re: 5G roadblock: labor

On 12/30/19 2:39 PM, Christopher Morrow wrote: It'd be nice to see what benefits 5g really has for carriers and consumers/users... It looks, to me, like a bunch of the 5g hype is really: "uhm, we need to sell these carriers on the G++ ... spin up the hype machine about speed!" never mind the

Re: 5G roadblock: labor

On 12/30/19 5:42 PM, Michael Thomas wrote: Oh, I didn't know that. Seems like it's a relatively new thing. Seems like they went to a lot of trouble to essentially do what voip does. Or maybe not? I've been poking around trying figure out what's going on under the hood with wifi calling, and it

Re: 5G roadblock: labor

On 12/30/19 1:35 PM, Brandon Martin wrote: On 12/30/19 4:14 PM, Michael Thomas wrote: The latency argument is what interests me. Supposedly 4G's latency and jitter are tough on voip. If that improves there is just no reason for TDM to phones which is a significant development because cell

Re: 5G roadblock: labor

On Mon, Dec 30, 2019 at 4:11 PM Brian J. Murrell wrote: > > On Mon, 2019-12-30 at 09:50 -0500, Shane Ronan wrote: > > > > Also, keep in mind that 10 years ago, you didn't know you would want > > or > > need 25mbits to your phone, > > Who needs 25mbits to their phone? > this is the wrong argument

Re: 5G roadblock: labor

On 12/30/19 3:24 PM, Matthew Petach wrote: If we solve the issue of endpoint identity on a connection independent of the transport, so that your video stream of the game doesn't have to stop and restart every time you shift from one access point to the next, I could definitely see wi-Fi beating

Re: 5G roadblock: labor

On 12/30/19 4:14 PM, Michael Thomas wrote: The latency argument is what interests me. Supposedly 4G's latency and jitter are tough on voip. If that improves there is just no reason for TDM to phones which is a significant development because cell phones are probably the largest deployment of

RE: 5G roadblock: labor

>> Also, keep in mind that 10 years ago, you didn't know you would want >> or need 25mbits to your phone, >Who needs 25mbits to their phone? I can only talk to one party at a time, so there is no need for more than a single bearer channel worth of bandwidth. -- The fact that there's a

RE: 5G roadblock: labor

Lord willing about a tenth of what I’m using now; aka retirement. LQM3 > From: NANOG On Behalf Of > Shane Ronan > Sent: Monday, December 30, 2019 3:14 PM > Subject: Re: 5G roadblock: labor > > Again, you are looking only at today, how much bandwidth will you need in 10 >

Re: 5G roadblock: labor

On 12/30/19 12:36 PM, Mike Hammett wrote: I mean it's inevitable that 5G replaces 4G. It just comes down to the spectrum the given carrier uses that dictates speed and range. In the US, AT and Verizon are deploying in the millimeter bands. They'll do a gig at a few hundred feet. T-Mobile is

Re: 5G roadblock: labor

; Intelligent Computing Solutions > http://www.ics-il.com > > Midwest-IX > http://www.midwest-ix.com > > From: "Matt Hoppes" > To: "Shane Ronan" , "Mark Tinka" > > Cc: "North American Network Operators' Group" > Sent: Monday, Dece

Re: 5G roadblock: labor

On Mon, 2019-12-30 at 09:50 -0500, Shane Ronan wrote: > > Also, keep in mind that 10 years ago, you didn't know you would want > or > need 25mbits to your phone, Who needs 25mbits to their phone? > but I'd bet that now you'd have a hard time > living without it. I already live without it (by a

Re: 5G roadblock: labor

If you are looking at speed as the only benefit to 5G, you are missing out on many of the other benefits. And as far as WiFi goes, let me know when we have seamless national WiFi roaming and handoffs, because only at that point will it beat 5G. Shane On Mon, Dec 30, 2019, 3:00 PM Mark Tinka

RE: 5G roadblock: labor

On Monday, 30 December, 2019 13:24, Matthew Petach wrote: >Unfortunately, Wi-Fi handoffs suck donkey balls compared to >cell tower handoffs when moving. It's fine when you're >stationary, but walking down the street, and shifting from >one wifi hotspot to the next, you're going to be

Re: 5G roadblock: labor

Again, you are looking only at today, how much bandwidth will you need in 10 years? Other 5G benefits: Beam forming, network slicing, reduced latency and support for UE desification, just to name a few. On Mon, Dec 30, 2019, 3:12 PM Matt Hoppes wrote: > What are the other benefits of 5G? My

Re: 5G roadblock: labor

://www.ics-il.com Midwest-IX http://www.midwest-ix.com - Original Message - From: "Matt Hoppes" To: "Shane Ronan" , "Mark Tinka" Cc: "North American Network Operators' Group" Sent: Monday, December 30, 2019 2:12:13 PM Subject: Re: 5G roadblock: l

Re: 5G roadblock: labor

Ronan" To: "Matt Hoppes" Cc: "North American Network Operators' Group" Sent: Monday, December 30, 2019 8:50:24 AM Subject: Re: 5G roadblock: labor Verizon has already proven in 5 cities that you can run fiber to the node and provide 1G fixed wireless service to both

Re: 5G roadblock: labor

On 30/Dec/19 22:24, Matthew Petach wrote: > > Unfortunately, Wi-Fi handoffs suck donkey balls compared to  > cell tower handoffs when moving.  It's fine when you're > stationary, but walking down the street, and shifting from > one wifi hotspot to the next, you're going to be dropping > and

Re: 5G roadblock: labor

Unfortunately, Wi-Fi handoffs suck donkey balls compared to cell tower handoffs when moving. It's fine when you're stationary, but walking down the street, and shifting from one wifi hotspot to the next, you're going to be dropping and re-establishing connections with a new endpoint IP address

Re: 5G roadblock: labor

On 30/Dec/19 22:14, Shane Ronan wrote: > > Other 5G benefits: Beam forming, network slicing, reduced latency and > support for UE desification, just to name a few. And the 802.11ac in my house, office, and down by the bar struggles with this, because...? Mark.

Re: 5G roadblock: labor

On 30/Dec/19 22:10, Shane Ronan wrote: > > And as far as WiFi goes, let me know when we have seamless national > WiFi roaming and handoffs, because only at that point will it beat 5G. You mean the kids still use their phones to actually talk? Mark.

Re: 5G roadblock: labor

What are the other benefits of 5G? My 4G/LTE works when I go behind things, miles from the tower, and delivers between 5 and 20 megabits which is more than enough for anything I'm doing on a mobile device. On 12/30/19 3:10 PM, Shane Ronan wrote: If you are looking at speed as the only

Re: 5G roadblock: labor

Verizon has already proven in 5 cities that you can run fiber to the node and provide 1G fixed wireless service to both single and multi family homes. This reduces the fiber cost and the headache of dealing with landlords in MDU's. Also, keep in mind that 10 years ago, you didn't know you would

Re: 5G roadblock: labor

On 30/Dec/19 16:50, Shane Ronan wrote: > > Also, keep in mind that 10 years ago, you didn't know you would want > or need 25mbits to your phone, but I'd bet that now you'd have a hard > time living without it. Which you can certainly achieve over wi-fi without hassle. I posit that in many

Re: 5G roadblock: labor

On 30/Dec/19 16:40, jdambro...@gmail.com wrote: > Ultimately this will come down to market demand. I think this will largely be driven by the business case as the MNO's see it. If there is anyone complaining about 4G/LTE, please raise your hand. Mark.

Re: 5G roadblock: labor

On 30/Dec/19 16:23, Matt Hoppes wrote: > We saw this with Femtocells. Why build the network when the end user will > build it with their broadband connection? My point exactly. It's sneaky and, well, genius, at the same time. > > With 5G - if I need fiber to the pole already and the pole

Re: 5G roadblock: labor

On Mon, Dec 30, 2019 at 6:42 AM wrote: > > Ultimately, market demand showed that it was necessary and we had done the > right thing > developing the next speed. > In other words, this will be up to the marketing teams. $MAJOR_CELL_CARRIER will start advertising that they are the only all-5G

RE: 5G roadblock: labor

On Behalf Of Matt Hoppes Sent: Monday, December 30, 2019 9:24 AM To: Mark Tinka Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: 5G roadblock: labor We saw this with Femtocells. Why build the network when the end user will build it with their broadband connection? With 5G - if I need fiber to the pole already

Re: 5G roadblock: labor

We saw this with Femtocells. Why build the network when the end user will build it with their broadband connection? With 5G - if I need fiber to the pole already and the pole has to be within. Few hundred feet of the end user, why not just deploy fiber to the home? Do I really need a gigabit

Re: 5G roadblock: labor

On 30/Dec/19 09:12, Christopher Morrow wrote: > Huh, you mean since you have to deploy a tower/unit every ~100 meters > to get 5g to actually work at reasonable speeds (with nothing in the > line of sight) you're going to need a bunch more people to put up > these new things-ma-bobs? In my

Re: 5G roadblock: labor

On Sun, Dec 29, 2019 at 5:50 PM Michael Thomas wrote: > > An interesting article on the road to 5G that they need to about double > the size of the workforce to roll it out. I expect that this affects > some of you directly. Huh, you mean since you have to deploy a tower/unit every ~100 meters

Re: 5G roadblock: labor

On 30/Dec/19 00:49, Michael Thomas wrote: > > https://www.politico.com/news/2019/12/29/big-barrier-trump-5g-america-089883 > > > An interesting article on the road to 5G that they need to about > double the size of the workforce to roll it out. I expect that this > affects some of you directly.

<    1   2