On 9/2/21 09:33, Mel Beckman wrote:
Here’s a nice article on the code issue, which is nationwide in the US
(it’s part of the NEC). It speaks specifically about the generator
requirements:
https://temperaturemaster.com/furnaces-hardwired-what-you-need-to-know/
Here’s a nice article on the code issue, which is nationwide in the US (it’s
part of the NEC). It speaks specifically about the generator requirements:
https://temperaturemaster.com/furnaces-hardwired-what-you-need-to-know/
TLDR: The NEC is against plugged-in furnaces for a good reason: they
Let me clarify since this thread has resurrected itself.
In the northern climates where I live, almost 100% of the heat during
winter is either natural gas or propane. It's either fan forced or hot
water.
In each case, the amount of electricity consumed by a typical furnace is
well under 15
On 9/1/21 21:13, Peter Beckman wrote:
On Tue, 31 Aug 2021, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote:
Is $40-60 low cost enough for you for safe, temporary generator
connections?
[snip]
Add a Generator Power Inlet Input (indoor or outdoor) rated at 30Amp
240v NEMA L6-30P, for
On 9/2/21 02:16, Eric Germann via NANOG wrote:
15kW is 15kVA (not 1.5 kVA) at a power factor of 1.0, if the heat is
all resistive.
Right! Even at a 0.8pf, 15kW is not 1.5kVA.
I just didn't have the energy to get into it with him.
Mark.
On Tue, 31 Aug 2021, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote:
I just wish the electrical code would permit or require certain low cost
things which make temporary generator connections more likely to be safe.
For example, code requires most furnaces to be hardwired. But a furnace is
one of the
> On Aug 31, 2021, at 2:33 PM, Owen DeLong via NANOG wrote:
>
>
>
> ...
> 15kW is 1.5kVA in a simple radiant electric heat application. (it’s a simple
> resistive load with no power factor weirdness). Whether you could do this
> with 4-8kVA depends on what else you’re trying to run.
>
>
>
On Tue, Aug 31, 2021 at 12:17 PM Mel Beckman wrote:
> It’s germane to NANOG. Just last week I visited a “data center” that uses
> a roll up generator and a cheater cord to power the racks. “Oh, this is
> safe”, they told me. “We have a policy that you must throw the main breaker
> before
In this old (really not all that old comparatively, mid-late 19th c)
Boston neighborhood there are apparently still appliances w/o
thermocouple gas shut-offs.
I know because a local gas guy I was talking to told me it was a
nightmare if they had to shut off the gas in the street. They had a
I guess I sort of started this part of the thread because I was
thinking: Gosh, I sure hope people who own home generators read NANOG
regularly (or linepersons have some other plan).
--
-Barry Shein
Software Tool & Die| b...@theworld.com | http://www.TheWorld.com
I have a gas-fired hot water system, the electricity is also used to
run the gas blower. I believe most of the electricity it uses is for
circulating the hot water which you mention but it won't do anything
w/o electricity.
Actually I can bypass the circulator and it will do its best to
> On Aug 31, 2021, at 09:23 , Sabri Berisha wrote:
>
> - On Aug 31, 2021, at 2:11 AM, Forrest Christian (List Account)
> li...@packetflux.com wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
>> I just wish the electrical code would permit or require certain low cost
>> things
>> which make temporary generator
Here’s an example of the type I was describing in my previous post:
https://diy.stackexchange.com/questions/23330/how-can-i-retrofit-this-existing-wall-heater-with-an-external-thermostat
(Primarily for the image, not the subject matter of the page)
> On Aug 31, 2021, at 07:41 , Mel Beckman wrote:
>
> Mark,
>
> But you said “Gas-fired furnaces or heaters should not have an impact because
> the only electrical requirement is to fire up the pilot light.” There is no
> gas-fired furnace I know of that doesn’t require a blower fan. How
> On Aug 31, 2021, at 07:15 , Mark Tinka wrote:
>
>
>
> On 8/31/21 16:06, Mel Beckman wrote:
>
>> I think you’re forgetting about the all-important blower fan in a gas-fired
>> furnace.
>
> Well, I was referring to a pure electric furnace, not one that uses a blower
> over a gas-fired
> On Aug 31, 2021, at 03:36 , Mark Tinka wrote:
>
>
>
> On 8/31/21 12:26, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote:
>
>> Yes. Or any other furnace where the electricity is only used for
>> circulation of the heat. Gas fired Hot water furnaces would be another
>> example where there is
On 8/31/21 07:06, Mel Beckman wrote:
Mark,
I think you’re forgetting about the all-important blower fan in a gas-fired
furnace.
We're *really* getting in the weeds here. A single note to the list
about not backfeeding has really blown up.
That said, the reason the code requires furnaces
On 8/31/21 18:32, Jay Hennigan wrote:
More likely a forced-air gas furnace with an electric blower. An
electric furnace would be a heavy lift for a portable generator.
Yes, this was my thinking, until Mel clarified.
Mark.
On 8/31/21 17:07, Warren Kumari wrote:
Depending on what you mean by furnace -- in some places, the term is
used to cover basically any permanent (usually non-wood) heater. We
have something like this in a holiday/weekend property:
On 8/31/21 02:19, Mark Tinka wrote:
On 8/31/21 11:11, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote:
For example, code requires most furnaces to be hardwired. But a
furnace is one of the first things you want on a generator in an
extended winter power outage. If instead of hardwired, the code
- On Aug 31, 2021, at 2:11 AM, Forrest Christian (List Account)
li...@packetflux.com wrote:
Hi,
> I just wish the electrical code would permit or require certain low cost
> things
> which make temporary generator connections more likely to be safe.
> For example, code requires most
It’s germane to NANOG. Just last week I visited a “data center” that uses a
roll up generator and a cheater cord to power the racks. “Oh, this is safe”,
they told me. “We have a policy that you must throw the main breaker before
plugging in the generator. Since you have to open the garage door
On Tue, Aug 31, 2021 at 10:44 AM Mel Beckman wrote:
> Mark,
>
> But you said “Gas-fired furnaces or heaters should not have an impact
> because the only electrical requirement is to fire up the pilot light.”
> There is no gas-fired furnace I know of that doesn’t require a blower fan.
> How else
On 8/31/21 16:41, Mel Beckman wrote:
But you said “Gas-fired furnaces or heaters should not have an impact because
the only electrical requirement is to fire up the pilot light.” There is no
gas-fired furnace I know of that doesn’t require a blower fan. How else does
the heat get out of
Is this conversation really taking place on NANOG?
Don't backfeed power. Got it. Stupid people are going to be stupid, we
won't solve it here.
Josh Luthman
24/7 Help Desk: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373
On Tue, Aug 31, 2021 at 10:41 AM Mel Beckman
Mark,
But you said “Gas-fired furnaces or heaters should not have an impact because
the only electrical requirement is to fire up the pilot light.” There is no
gas-fired furnace I know of that doesn’t require a blower fan. How else does
the heat get out of the furnace?
To answer your
On 8/31/21 16:06, Mel Beckman wrote:
I think you’re forgetting about the all-important blower fan in a gas-fired
furnace.
Well, I was referring to a pure electric furnace, not one that uses a
blower over a gas-fired one :-).
In that case, the blower is not a major draw on power.
But
Mark,
I think you’re forgetting about the all-important blower fan in a gas-fired
furnace.
That said, the reason the code requires furnaces to be hardwired is to ensure
that the blower interlock system can’t be bypassed. An electrical interlock
ties a heat recover ventilator to circulation
On 8/31/21 12:26, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote:
Yes. Or any other furnace where the electricity is only used for
circulation of the heat. Gas fired Hot water furnaces would be
another example where there is minimal electricity used to run the
furnace controls and circulate the
Yes. Or any other furnace where the electricity is only used for
circulation of the heat. Gas fired Hot water furnaces would be another
example where there is minimal electricity used to run the furnace controls
and circulate the hot water.
All of these run on 120V and usually well under 15A.
On 8/31/21 11:11, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote:
I just wish the electrical code would permit or require certain low
cost things which make temporary generator connections more likely to
be safe.
For example, code requires most furnaces to be hardwired. But a
furnace is one of
; Tinka
> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 8:12 AM
> To: Jared Mauch
> Cc: nanog@nanog.org
> Subject: Re: Reminder: Never connect a generator to home wiring without
> transfer switch
>
>
>
> On 8/25/21 16:59, Jared Mauch wrote:
>
> > This is why I personally
On 8/31/21 07:37, John van Oppen wrote:
I told my wife that she is my critical load as such I like to treat our place
like a datacenter. House wide UPS for all lights and all bedroom and office
outlets, large generator system, ATS and lots of fuel. Last time I was at a
nanog and the
to home wiring without
transfer switch
On 8/25/21 16:59, Jared Mauch wrote:
> This is why I personally spent the $$ on a proper standby generator with
> multiple ATS for the multiple panels.
Same here.
Massively painful, which led to some boring moments testing, testing and more
t
to home wiring without
transfer switch
Aaron,
Your incorrect assumption is that lineman are tying phases to earth ground, a
discontinued practice that killed many lineman up through 1980, despite its
seeming faultless logic.
The current safety practice is called “equipotential grounding
On 8/30/21 21:20, Mel Beckman wrote:
I’ve had this scenario play out several times:
Gotta love the Internet - we are all experts :-).
Mark.
I was catching 5 minutes of CNN earlier this morning down here, and Gov.
Edwards (LA) was appealing to folk running generators to make sure they
don't die from smoke inhalation, due to using them inside the house so
as to keep them away from water. Apparently, many have died post-storm
due to
On 8/30/21 22:13, Lamar Owen wrote:
I have some friends who work for the local electric cooperative, and
all of them have backfeed stories. Around here, which is very rural,
it's not at all uncommon to have a single house isolated on a
distribution spur; nor is it at all uncommon for
On 8/25/21 11:26 AM, Dave wrote:
Back feed is a significant problem but bringing a generator that is
not synchronized to the grid can have dramatic results, typically only
once
This, IMO, is a great thread, lots of good reading here.
My $dayjob is at a site where the previous occupants did
> The point that several brought up is that doing so is not only a bad idea,
> but that it simply won't work
Jay,
I’ve had this scenario play out several times:
DIYguy: Check out my new generator! It’s big enough to power the whole house!
Me: You run extension cords from the generator to all
On 8/30/21 10:46, Aaron C. de Bruyn via NANOG wrote:
While they were waiting for a few more trucks to arrive with a
replacement pole, I got to ask them a few questions. They said it's
standard practice for them to ground on both sides exactly for the
reason that someone might accidentally
' redundancies. There are ALWAYS redundancies.
>
Yup - and even with this, "an average of 45 linemen a year loses their
lives in the line of duty, leaving families who depend on them." --
https://fallenlinemen.org/frequently-asked-questions/
The original point remains: "Reminder: N
Aaron,
I think you didn’t get that the lineman was talking about equipotential
grounding. The school of “waiting for a few more trucks to arrive” probably
doesn’t get into the full depth of the subject :)
-mel
On Aug 30, 2021, at 10:46 AM, Aaron C. de Bruyn
mailto:aa...@heyaaron.com>>
Aaron,
Your incorrect assumption is that lineman are tying phases to earth ground, a
discontinued practice that killed many lineman up through 1980, despite its
seeming faultless logic.
The current safety practice is called “equipotential grounding”, which doesn’t
go to earth. Thus an backed
>
> There are usually redundancies built-in when it comes to safety. i.e.
> what's the point of installing grounds on the upstream side if you have the
> switch open? If the lines are de-energized, why wear gloves? If you're
> doing all that, why carry an AED?
>
My uncle was a high tension
During the February 2021 storm that swept through the US, power got knocked
out on my rural street due to a tree coming down and taking out a pole.
While they were waiting for a few more trucks to arrive with a replacement
pole, I got to ask them a few questions. They said it's standard practice
On Mon, Aug 30, 2021 at 12:47 PM Aaron C. de Bruyn via NANOG <
nanog@nanog.org> wrote:
> I've been following the thread.
> If I'm dumb enough to back feed through the transformer into the
> downstream side of the downed line, how is it going to be a problem if
> linemen are grounding the phases
I've been following the thread.
If I'm dumb enough to back feed through the transformer into the downstream
side of the downed line, how is it going to be a problem if linemen are
grounding the phases on *both sides* of the work area.
That's what Ben seemed to be implying.
-A
On Mon, Aug 30,
On 8/30/21 18:19, Chris Cariffe wrote:
That's a ground loop, you want to avoid that.
Yes, that...
Mark.
On 8/30/21 18:20, Herb L wrote:
https://www.csemag.com/articles/grounding-points-single-or-multi/
Even they conclude that multiple grounding points should all converge at
the main single point.
Grounding is probably the most misunderstood element of electricity. In
cases where earth
https://www.csemag.com/articles/grounding-points-single-or-multi/
> On Aug 30, 2021, at 09:10, Mark Tinka wrote:
>
>
>
> On 8/30/21 17:59, Aaron C. de Bruyn via NANOG wrote:
>
>>
>> Would you care to educate me on this?
>> If you ground the phases on both sides of the work-site, how are you
On 8/30/21 17:59, Aaron C. de Bruyn via NANOG wrote:
Would you care to educate me on this?
If you ground the phases on both sides of the work-site, how are you
going to end up being a better path to ground?
I'm not sure if it applies to work sites for linesmen, but my limited
Aaron,
If you read back in this thread (using the NANOG mailing list archive), you’ll
find this has been explained in great detail. In a nutshell, phase grounding
won’t help if a generator is energized from the customer end, and this
technique was discontinued in the 1970s due to the many
On Mon, Aug 30, 2021 at 7:35 AM Lady Benjamin Cannon of Glencoe, ASCE <
l...@6by7.net> wrote:
> Yes, this is a real and dangerous problem. Today. Even with grounding
> I’m afraid. Source: I’ve been working in an engineering capacity for 27
> years and I have the license you’d need to build a
Yes, this is a real and dangerous problem. Today. Even with grounding I’m
afraid. Source: I’ve been working in an engineering capacity for 27 years and
I have the license you’d need to build a nuclear power plant.
Things people underestimate in my opinion: Water. Wind. Transformers.
On 8/25/21 21:09, Warren Kumari wrote:
... and my "funny" story.
We used to live in San Jose. There was a large heat-wave, and much of
SJC lost power because of A/C load, etc. Anyway, my wife and I go and
camp in one of the office conference rooms for a few days because the
office still
On 8/25/21 20:15, Lady Benjamin Cannon of Glencoe, ASCE wrote:
So the issue here is even a small 120vac current becomes a very fatal event at
7.2 or 11 or 14.4kV. It’s a safety issue for linepersons doing emergency
restoration work.
Yep, because the home generator will be boosted up by
On 8/25/21 20:30, b...@theworld.com wrote:
Ok, I'll be the curmudgeon...
Is this really a problem in practice?
The issue is that "it can be".
Solar inverter OEM's have long argued that UL 1741 is too stringent
because the assumption is that linesmen always check for voltage on the
line
On 8/25/21 19:25, Mel Beckman wrote:
Jay,
No, because transformers work in both directions :)
Plus, to the previous commenter that talked about “suicide cords”:
they’’re more correctly termed “homicide cords”:
“ The lineman killed yesterday was working for Pike Electric and
picked up
On 8/25/21 19:21, Sabri Berisha wrote:
At my home, I use this: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00CONE4MG
The interlock kit is installed in such a way that either the main or
the generator circuit breaker is closed. If the main is on, you can't
switch to generator power, and vice versa
On 8/25/21 19:10, Jay Hennigan wrote:
If you fail to isolate your generator from the incoming utility feed
so that you're back-feeding the utility and the power is out for your
neighborhood or the whole city, would not the load of trying to light
up the whole town completely overwhelm
Matt,
The practice you describe, called “parallel grounding”, was flawed and
discontinued in the 1970s. It was replaced by equipotential grounding, which
protects against accidental grid-delivered voltages, but still can’t protect
against customer-delivered voltages.
>
> In theory, Jay is correct, but assuming that theory will always work in
> practice is, in this case, how linemen end up dead. We're all well aware of
> never assuming theory = practice, but admittedly the stakes tend to be a
> little lower in our world.
>
right. my grandpa was a
> On Aug 25, 2021, at 1:30 PM, b...@theworld.com wrote:
>
>
>
> Except maybe that one guy at Harvard who came to replace what turned
> out to be a 100+ year old, home made, "breaker" which fed our machine
> room which was hidden in a narrow dark hallway winding around our
> machine room
It's the specific combination of current and voltage that is hazardous.
Too much current, through/across the heart, is the main, potentially fatal,
hazard. This is why 120v GFCIs trip near 5 milliamps (mA). (20-30 mA in the
wrong place is too much.)
A voltage pushes a current through a
On 8/25/21 12:03, Jay Nugent wrote:
Greetings,
And in that moment before the circuit breaker on your generator
trips, your 120/240 volts has been stepped up to 7200 through the "pole
pig" transformer in your neighborhood, and has KILLED the lineman
working to fix that 7200 feeder
On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 2:34 PM wrote:
>
> Ok, I'll be the curmudgeon...
>
> Is this really a problem in practice?
>
> Most people I've known who worked around electrical mains etc assumed
> the worst at all times and it isn't all that difficult to protect
> against as one works.
>
> I realize
Barry,
It’s really a problem. Several lineman are maimed or killed every year because
of DIY ignorance. I’ve already provided one incident. You can easily find more.
It’s virtually impossible for lineman to protect against this risk while
working. These guys aren’t idiots, they are highly
On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 11:06 AM Jared Mauch wrote:
>
>
> > On Aug 25, 2021, at 10:04 AM, Mark Tinka wrote:
> >
> > You need to make these things fool-proof. We haven't traveled in over a
> year but the day we do, it's a recipe for disaster if the person that deals
> with this stuff is on the
Ok, I'll be the curmudgeon...
Is this really a problem in practice?
Most people I've known who worked around electrical mains etc assumed
the worst at all times and it isn't all that difficult to protect
against as one works.
I realize one can infinitely invoke "better safe than sorry!", "an
On 8/25/21 11:11 AM, Jay Hennigan wrote:
The question that Ethan raised makes sense, however. If power to
several blocks is out and I connect my little 2KW Honda to my house
wiring without a transfer switch, because transformers work in both
directions my generator will see the load of the
So the issue here is even a small 120vac current becomes a very fatal event at
7.2 or 11 or 14.4kV. It’s a safety issue for linepersons doing emergency
restoration work.
Ms. Lady Benjamin PD Cannon of Glencoe, ASCE
6x7 Networks & 6x7 Telecom, LLC
CEO
l...@6by7.net
"The only fully
On 8/25/21 10:25, Mel Beckman wrote:
Jay,
No, because transformers work in both directions :)
I think you mean, "Yes, because transformers work in both directions."
First of all, I absolutely agree that no one should attempt to energize
their home wiring with a standby generator unless
In theory, Jay is correct, but assuming that theory will always work in
practice is, in this case, how linemen end up dead. We're all well aware of
never assuming theory = practice, but admittedly the stakes tend to be a
little lower in our world.
Ensuring that a generator physically cannot
Jay,
No, because transformers work in both directions :)
Plus, to the previous commenter that talked about “suicide cords”: they’’re
more correctly termed “homicide cords”:
“ The lineman killed yesterday was working for Pike Electric and picked up a
line that was connected to someones house
- On Aug 25, 2021, at 7:04 AM, Mark Tinka mark@tinka.africa wrote:
Hello Mark,
> At the home, you typically have someone that is responsible for knowing
> what to do in case of an outage, and switching over to self-generation.
> If that person is not there, or has passed out from too many
On 8/25/21 07:04, Mark Tinka wrote:
On 8/25/21 15:59, Ethan O'Toole wrote:
How would this not load the generator or inverter into oblivion?
Not sure I understand your question. Say again, please.
If you fail to isolate your generator from the incoming utility feed so
that you're
Back feed is a significant problem but bringing a generator that is not
synchronized to the grid can have dramatic results, typically only once
Dave
> On Aug 25, 2021, at 11:11 AM, Mark Tinka wrote:
>
>
>
> On 8/25/21 16:59, Jared Mauch wrote:
>
>> This is why I personally spent the $$ on
On 8/25/21 16:59, Jared Mauch wrote:
This is why I personally spent the $$ on a proper standby generator with
multiple ATS for the multiple panels.
Same here.
Massively painful, which led to some boring moments testing, testing and
more testing. But after 5 months with electricians,
> On Aug 25, 2021, at 10:04 AM, Mark Tinka wrote:
>
> You need to make these things fool-proof. We haven't traveled in over a year
> but the day we do, it's a recipe for disaster if the person that deals with
> this stuff is on the road when the power goes out back at home.
This is why I
On 8/25/21 16:24, Ethan O'Toole wrote:
If you hook 100KW of neighbors up to your 5KW/20% THD garden generator
it would probably trip the breaker, or stall.
Assuming that you don't want to deliberately simulate a utility grid on
the same transformer as your neighbors, the bad news is
How would this not load the generator or inverter into oblivion?
Not sure I understand your question. Say again, please.
If you hook 100KW of neighbors up to your 5KW/20% THD garden generator it
would probably trip the breaker, or stall.
I suppose it could be an issue if it was a single
On 8/25/21 15:59, Ethan O'Toole wrote:
How would this not load the generator or inverter into oblivion?
Not sure I understand your question. Say again, please.
(Just curious, I know people who use a suicide cord usually turn off
the main breaker.)
At the home, you typically have
Back feeding electric power into the utility lines is dangerous for the
repair crews working on utility lines.
Same advice applies to solar or stationery storage inverters. Typically,
these are automated enough to disconnect from the grid after an outage,
if
you don't have a local battery;
On 8/23/21 19:53, Sean Donelan wrote:
Currently a problem in the north-east USA, but applicable after every
storm.
People in the south have more experience with hurricanes, and are used
to this advice. But apparently, some folks up north aren't in practice.
Never connect an electric
Currently a problem in the north-east USA, but applicable after every
storm.
People in the south have more experience with hurricanes, and are used to
this advice. But apparently, some folks up north aren't in practice.
Never connect an electric generator to home electrical wiring without
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