Re: What do you think about this airline vs 5G brouhaha?

Geoff, My understanding is that the FAA and 5G industry has just this week agreed on buffer zones around 50 of the impacted 80 US airports: https://www.8newsnow.com/news/local-news/las-vegas-airport-included-in-5g-buffer-zone/ The 30 airports that are not buffered I think don’t have 5G deployed

Re: What do you think about this airline vs 5G brouhaha?

On 1/21/22 11:10, Michael Thomas wrote: For commercial airlines is it just old equipment or all equipment that has this error? That is, is there actually an off the shelf radio that would solve the problem? I'm not qualified to answer. Avionics needs to go through a testing program called TS

Re: What do you think about this airline vs 5G brouhaha?

Here’s another video by 767 pilot Juan Brown from his chanel BlancoLirio: https://youtu.be/aHIFs4EkA0k He addresses many of the points being claimed by the FCC and 5G industry, in particular the reason you can’t compare US 5G with overseas 5G. -mel via cell On Jan 21, 2022, at 11:11 AM, Michae

Re: What do you think about this airline vs 5G brouhaha?

On 1/21/22 10:44 AM, Jay Hennigan wrote: FAA puts all kinds of restrictions on what equipment is required to perform certain maneuvers. You need a localizer, glideslope, etc. for instrument landings. Radars are made today that can reject out-of-band interference. If FAA simply required a ce

Re: What do you think about this airline vs 5G brouhaha?

On 1/20/22 13:41, Brandon Martin wrote: From the sound of it, at least some of these altimeters were designed around the (probably poor) assumption that there would be essentially no RF power within half a GHz of them, and that assumption is no longer going to be true.  Was that a good design

Re: [External] Re: What do you think about this airline vs 5G brouhaha?

On 1/20/22 20:45, Keenan Tims wrote: The AOA DISAGREE alert was never intended as an optional feature. However either due to a software bug or miscommunication between Boeing and their contractor for the avionics package (Collins?), it got tied to the optional AoA (value) indicator. This

Re: What do you think about this airline vs 5G brouhaha?

On 01/19/2022 03:47, Masataka Ohta wrote: That's not saturation. Saturation means a receiver does not have adequate dynamic range. With digital processing under saturation, effective number of bits is reduced. That is, some necessary bits are lost, which is not "everything that's there". I th

Re: [External] Re: What do you think about this airline vs 5G brouhaha?

On 2022-01-20 00:49, Mark Tinka wrote: Furthermore, the AoA "Disagree Alert" message that would need to appear on the pilot's display in the case of an AoA sensor failure, was an "optional extra", which most airlines elected not to add to the purchase order, e.g., Air Canada, American Airlines

Re: What do you think about this airline vs 5G brouhaha?

On Wed, 2022-01-19 at 16:37 -0500, Scott McGrath wrote: > I’m guessing you are not a pilot,  one reason aviation is resistant to > change is its history is written in blood,    Unlike tech aviation is > incremental change and painstaking testing and documentation of that > testing.   > True. True

Re: What do you think about this airline vs 5G brouhaha?

On 2022-01-19, at 02:39, John Levine wrote: > > > tl;dr while interference is certainly possible in theory, […] Reminds me of the first few years I had a handheld digital cellphone (GSM). There was a theoretical possibility that the (up to 2 W) RF pulses from the phone could trigger the airba

Re: What do you think about this airline vs 5G brouhaha?

On 1/19/22 10:33 PM, Jay Hennigan wrote: > On 1/19/22 18:31, Bryan Fields wrote: >> The narrower the filter is, >> the higher the loss is. The greater the stopband attenuation is, the more >> elements required and more ripple is present in the pass band. Now granted >> for avionics, this is doable

Re: What do you think about this airline vs 5G brouhaha?

On 1/19/22 23:57, nano...@mulligan.org wrote: Scott - a side note to clarify things... The 737 Max8 problem was NOT due to lack of testing or non-incremental changes.  The system was well tested and put through it's paces.  It was a lack of proper pilot training in the aircraft and its sys

Re: What do you think about this airline vs 5G brouhaha?

Jay wrote:    By adding an LC bandpass filter will add to the propogation delay of the receiver.  When the round-trip time of the echo at 1000 feet is only 2 microseconds, that added delay will throw the RA out of calibration. Altitude error by the delay is proportional to wavelength of sig

Re: What do you think about this airline vs 5G brouhaha?

Um the Lightsquared monster is back stronger than ever however it has a new name Ligado Networks Yes we now have something which everyone agrees will hose every civillian GPS receiver out there. But hey thats the user’s problem. I’m glad i know how to use a sextant…. Perhaps someone will come

Re: What do you think about this airline vs 5G brouhaha?

On 1/19/22 18:31, Bryan Fields wrote: The issue is not one of out of band emissions, but rather close but strong signals near the receiver pass band. This can cause compression of the first RF amplifier stage and de-sensitize the receiver so it cannot hear the intended signal. I won't get into

Re: What do you think about this airline vs 5G brouhaha?

On 1/18/22 9:03 PM, Brandon Martin wrote: > One thing the FCC could potentially do to wipe some egg of their > collective faces, here, is mandate that transmitters operating in this > newly allocated wireless band face additional scrutiny for spurious > emissions in the radio altimeter band as w

Re: What do you think about this airline vs 5G brouhaha?

Tom Beecher wrote: It's also relevant that the spectrum surrounding the 4.2-4.4 range has not been an empty desert. It has been used for satellite downlink since the 60s I think? Yes, there are surely tons of differences in RF characteristics between the two. The important difference is in po

Re: What do you think about this airline vs 5G brouhaha?

Greetings, On Wed, 19 Jan 2022, Masataka Ohta wrote: Jay Hennigan wrote: Radar receivers are typically some form of direct conversion with rather good selectivity, synchronized to the frequency of the transmitted pulse. No. Direct conversion stage has no inherent frequency selectivity and i

Re: What do you think about this airline vs 5G brouhaha?

nano...@mulligan.org wrote on 19/01/2022 21:57: If you look at 5G deployments around Japan and Europe, generally they are NOT right up next to major airports. You might want to fact-check this claim. Most airports have cell towers nearby, particularly international airports. Whatever about

Re: What do you think about this airline vs 5G brouhaha?

Yeah - I'm sure they do and that is my point.  The heads of Verizon and ATT are not flying commercial. Their planes are not commercial airlines with hundreds of passengers == so they can much more easily just divert... Geoff On 1/19/22 15:12, sro...@ronan-online.com wrote: Considering Verizon

Re: What do you think about this airline vs 5G brouhaha?

Considering Verizon has a very sizable fleet of private aircraft, I am fairly certain this will happen often. Shane > On Jan 19, 2022, at 4:59 PM, nano...@mulligan.org wrote: > >  Scott - a side note to clarify things... > > The 737 Max8 problem was NOT due to lack of testing or non-increme

Re: What do you think about this airline vs 5G brouhaha?

Scott - a side note to clarify things... The 737 Max8 problem was NOT due to lack of testing or non-incremental changes.  The system was well tested and put through it's paces.  It was a lack of proper pilot training in the aircraft and its systems and some carriers choosing to NOT purchase sp

Re: What do you think about this airline vs 5G brouhaha?

I’m guessing you are not a pilot, one reason aviation is resistant to change is its history is written in blood,Unlike tech aviation is incremental change and painstaking testing and documentation of that testing. When that does not happen we get stuff like the 737 Max debacle Aviation is th

Re: What do you think about this airline vs 5G brouhaha?

> Jay, one thing you’re missing is that a maximum of 2 (and almost always 1) radar altimeter will be in use per airfield, as one aircraft will be landing at a time. I believe that Lady Benjamin may have conflated the radar altimeter on aircraft with the instrument landing system transmitters. On

Re: What do you think about this airline vs 5G brouhaha?

On 1/19/22 01:53, Lady Benjamin Cannon of Glencoe, ASCE wrote: Jay, one thing you’re missing is that a maximum of 2 (and almost always 1) radar altimeter will be in use per airfield, as one aircraft will be landing at a time. Really? I was under the impression that radar altimeters were prett

Re: What do you think about this airline vs 5G brouhaha?

Being a former satellite downlink/uplink operator I loosely kept up with this and had some involvement. The satellite vendors moved frequencies on some of their customers to make way. I forget the full economics and seem to remember one could get reimbursed from the FCC for the change. However

Re: What do you think about this airline vs 5G brouhaha?

It's also relevant that the spectrum surrounding the 4.2-4.4 range has not been an empty desert. It has been used for satellite downlink since the 60s I think? Yes, there are surely tons of differences in RF characteristics between the two. But let's be honest. Analysis would have been done decade

Re: What do you think about this airline vs 5G brouhaha?

Altimeter Band : 4.2Ghz - 4.4Ghz VZ and AT&T agreed (long ago) to reduce power and stay inside 3.7Ghz - 3.98Ghz once the full deployment was done, staying 200MHz away from altimeters. In Japan, they have been running 5G for over a year now up to 4,1Ghz, and restarting again at 4.5Ghz. Only 100MHz

Re: What do you think about this airline vs 5G brouhaha?

> On Jan 18, 2022, at 4:34 PM, Dennis Glatting wrote: > > What aviation now wants is a 5G exclusion zone around airports, or what > I sarcastically call "a technology exclusion zone," which tends to be > businesses and homes. What is aviation going to do when 6G comes along? > A new WiFi standa

Re: What do you think about this airline vs 5G brouhaha?

On Tue, 2022-01-18 at 12:29 -0800, Michael Thomas wrote: > > I really don't know anything about it. It seems really late to be > having > this fight now, right? > I worked in aviation as a technologist. Aviation is resistant to change. Any change. When you fly older aircraft, be aware that the

Re: What do you think about this airline vs 5G brouhaha?

Jay, one thing you’re missing is that a maximum of 2 (and almost always 1) radar altimeter will be in use per airfield, as one aircraft will be landing at a time. 2 at SFO in good weather. (Where it doesn’t matter if they work). Apparently some old gear has trouble with even a 500MHz guard ba

Re: What do you think about this airline vs 5G brouhaha?

Let’s be clear, this is not a 5G issue. LTE in the space spectrum would be an issue. This is a spectrum issue. Only. Ms. Lady Benjamin PD Cannon of Glencoe, ASCE 6x7 Networks & 6x7 Telecom, LLC CEO l...@6by7.net "The only fully end-to-end encrypted global telecommunications company in the

Re: What do you think about this airline vs 5G brouhaha?

Brandon Martin wrote: However, as long as your receiver still has adequate dynamic range to receive "everything that's there", That's not saturation. Saturation means a receiver does not have adequate dynamic range. With digital processing under saturation, effective number of bits is reduce

Re: What do you think about this airline vs 5G brouhaha?

On 1/19/22 12:28 AM, Masataka Ohta wrote: Digital technology can not be useful when RF stage is saturated, which is why a patent to avoid saturation was essential for CDMA. Completely overloading the receiver frontend will of course render any kind of modulation or coding gain irrelevant, yes

Re: What do you think about this airline vs 5G brouhaha?

Brandon Martin wrote: The system apparently also responds poorly to both narrowband and wideband jammers i.e. it does not employ what we'd consider robust, modern error-correction or coding systems or even digital error checking techniques. Digital technology can not be useful when RF stage

Re: What do you think about this airline vs 5G brouhaha?

Jay Hennigan wrote: Radar receivers are typically some form of direct conversion with rather good selectivity, synchronized to the frequency of the transmitted pulse. No. Direct conversion stage has no inherent frequency selectivity and is subject to saturation by noise of any frequency unless

Re: What do you think about this airline vs 5G brouhaha?

On 01/18/2022 20:08, Michael Loftis wrote: Remember that the RA is sub 1W looking for reflected emissions. It’s very possible the ground equipment for a cell base station to have spurious harmonics…where they land requires more RF engineering chops than I’ve got, and would obviously be very sys

Re: What do you think about this airline vs 5G brouhaha?

It appears that Michael Thomas said: > >I really don't know anything about it. It seems really late to be having >this fight now, right? Harold Feld did an excellent explainer about this in November: https://wetmachine.com/tales-of-the-sausage-factory/what-the-eff-faa-my-insanely-long-field-gui

Re: What do you think about this airline vs 5G brouhaha?

Interference with radar altimeters is a serious issue. As a pilot myself, if this fails, you crash with all hands lost. That said, we should be able to eliminate the possibility of any interference. So this shouldn’t be a thing. But also, you don’t f- with radar altimeters. Ms. Lady Benja

Re: What do you think about this airline vs 5G brouhaha?

On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 17:49 Jay Hennigan wrote: > On 1/18/22 15:51, Brandon Martin wrote: > > > Further, it seems that good engineering practice was not used in the > > design of these vulnerable systems and that they are subject to > > interference from broad-spectrum "jammers" (i.e. signals t

Re: What do you think about this airline vs 5G brouhaha?

On 01/18/2022 19:48, Jay Hennigan wrote: Intentional broadband jamming isn't going to be very effective against an airplane as the jammer would need to be directly beneath a fast moving target and get the timing exactly right with microsecond accuracy. Just to clarify, I wasn't referring to in

Re: What do you think about this airline vs 5G brouhaha?

On 1/18/22 15:51, Brandon Martin wrote: Further, it seems that good engineering practice was not used in the design of these vulnerable systems and that they are subject to interference from broad-spectrum "jammers" (i.e. signals that, in terms of modulation and timing, don't necessarily corre

Re: What do you think about this airline vs 5G brouhaha?

On 01/18/2022 16:57, Mel Beckman wrote: Bo, it’s the radar altimeter, not the barometric altimeter. This is a radar distance measurement device for determine the precise height above the ground, critical for low-visibility approaches. Where frequency interference is concerned, under FCC rules

Re: What do you think about this airline vs 5G brouhaha?

New to the public eye but not orgs like AOPA who’ve been fighting since 2020 but there not multi billion dollar lobby groups. US is more affected because we have more general aviation, and an older fleet overall. And it’s not cheap to replace these radio altimeters (but that’s kind of like everyth

Re: What do you think about this airline vs 5G brouhaha?

On 1/18/22 5:06 PM, Mel Beckman wrote: Incorrect. Owning spectrum also includes the right to interference-free operation. And you imply that the FAA and airline industry has done nothing, when in reality it’s the FCC who has done nothing. the FAA sponsored extensive engineering tests that demo

Re: What do you think about this airline vs 5G brouhaha?

Except that the FAA isn't claiming interference in their LICENSED band, they are claiming interference OUTSIDE their licensed band. You can't squat on a frequency and then expect the licensed users to accommodate you. Shane On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 5:06 PM Mel Beckman wrote: > Shane, > > Incorre

Re: What do you think about this airline vs 5G brouhaha?

On 1/18/22 12:29, Michael Thomas wrote: I really don't know anything about it. It seems really late to be having this fight now, right? From a technical standpoint it seems to me to be a non-issue. There's a 220 MHz guard band. 5G signals top out at 3980 MHz and radar altimeters operate bet

Re: What do you think about this airline vs 5G brouhaha?

Mel Beckman wrote on 18/01/2022 21:25: /The collective tech industry needs to admit that it made a huge blunder when it urged the FCC’s clueless Ajit Pai to “blow off” the clearly demonstrated FAA spectrum conflict. Sorry, passengers, but if you look out your window, you’ll see that aviation ow

Re: What do you think about this airline vs 5G brouhaha?

Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2022 4:06:46 PM Subject: Re: What do you think about this airline vs 5G brouhaha? Shane, Incorrect. Owning spectrum also includes the right to interference-free operation. And you imply that the FAA and airline industry has done nothing, when in reality it’s the F

Re: What do you think about this airline vs 5G brouhaha?

Apples and oranges Michael. The US domestic aviation environment is quite different than even Europe or and especially smaller countries overseas. And how long has 5G been out anyway? I hardly think that’s been available for enough of a safety track record in any country. -mel via cell On Jan

Re: What do you think about this airline vs 5G brouhaha?

Shane, Incorrect. Owning spectrum also includes the right to interference-free operation. And you imply that the FAA and airline industry has done nothing, when in reality it’s the FCC who has done nothing. the FAA sponsored extensive engineering tests that demonstrate the interference is a con

Re: What do you think about this airline vs 5G brouhaha?

The thing is aviation DOESN’T own this spectrum, they just assumed it would always be unused. And they failed to mention it would be a problem during the last 5 years of discussion regarding the use of this spectrum. Shane > On Jan 18, 2022, at 4:25 PM, Mel Beckman wrote: > >  > Michael, >

Re: What do you think about this airline vs 5G brouhaha?

On 1/18/22 1:47 PM, Brandon Martin wrote: On 01/18/2022 16:34, Michael Thomas wrote: Is this the band that has really really short range for 5G? If so, it doesn't seem like a very big deal to give them the airspace on approaches. I mean, if you live under a flight path by the airport, not ge

Re: What do you think about this airline vs 5G brouhaha?

Fearmongering. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest-IX http://www.midwest-ix.com - Original Message - From: "Michael Thomas" To: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2022 2:29:53 PM Subject: What do you think

Re: What do you think about this airline vs 5G brouhaha?

Brandon, Bo, it’s the radar altimeter, not the barometric altimeter. This is a radar distance measurement device for determine the precise height above the ground, critical for low-visibility approaches. Where frequency interference is concerned, under FCC rules the existing users have prior

Re: What do you think about this airline vs 5G brouhaha?

On 01/18/2022 16:34, Michael Thomas wrote: Is this the band that has really really short range for 5G? If so, it doesn't seem like a very big deal to give them the airspace on approaches. I mean, if you live under a flight path by the airport, not getting fast 5G is hardly your biggest problem.

Re: What do you think about this airline vs 5G brouhaha?

On 01/18/2022 15:29, Michael Thomas wrote: I really don't know anything about it. It seems really late to be having this fight now, right? The issue seems to be old aviation equipment that has poor receiver selectivity on its radio (not radar) altimeter. This is, apparently, a secondary, but

Re: What do you think about this airline vs 5G brouhaha?

On 1/18/22 1:25 PM, Mel Beckman wrote: Michael, Here’s a recent PCmag editorial on the subject, and it seems like many people want to put Internet speed above airline safety: https://www.pcmag.com/news/faa-goes-in-hard-to-kill-mid-band-5g

Re: What do you think about this airline vs 5G brouhaha?

Michael, Here’s a recent PCmag editorial on the subject, and it seems like many people want to put Internet speed above airline safety: https://www.pcmag.com/news/faa-goes-in-hard-to-kill-mid-band-5g

What do you think about this airline vs 5G brouhaha?

I really don't know anything about it. It seems really late to be having this fight now, right? Mike